Reply #112: Oh, I don't need your benefit of the doubt, thank you very little

[Eloriel]

I have since married a wonderful, kind, generous, loving man. I don't feel the need to bash males - I feel the need to bash the idiot I married who felt it was his right to smack me around. I know the difference between my current husband, a male, and my former, also a male. That's the disctinction I would like to make.

So, you WOULD bash males -- starting and perhaps ending with "that idiot" you once married. I see. But in your Group, you'd prevent others from engaging in any male bashing, apparently out of some loyalty issues relating to that wonderful, kind, generous, loving man you married next. Hmm, doesn't make too much sense to me -- does it you?

But it brings up another subject as well. You really ought to define what bashing is -- and perhaps what it is not. Most people now interpret "bashing" to include any and all criticism. I never considered criticism bashing, but admit to having fallen into the morass created by so many sloppy thinkers and use it just as sloppily myself as a rule, at least here at DU. So, what IS bashing?

I know the difference between my current husband, a male, and my former, also a male. That's the disctinction I would like to make.

Well, then MAKE it. Don't confuse one with the other. I'm thrilled you got yourself a wonderful mate. (It took me 2 tries as well, tho I wasn't beaten in my first marriage.) But I can assure you that your husband is neither diminished nor hurt nor is his lot in life undermined if SOME women have some bad things to say about certain OTHER males -- the bad ones.

An aside, sort of. A lot of people might call me a manhater. That's not quite true. I absolutely adore men who ARE feminists, or who are educable. Many men are; many more, it seems, are not. I will NOT be nice or tolerant of men who fully adn eagerly support systems that oppress me and all my sisters, the men who made your first husband possible to start with. I will NOT be nice or tolerant of men who actively harm women, and there are many of them, SOME of them right here at DU.

And if that keeps me out of a new Women's Issues Group, so be it.

You'd also ban male "mocking" as well, which completely eliminates all jokes, as already discussed. I did some email inbox housekeeping this afternoon and tossed away two adorable emails I'd gotten with the most gentle, sweet but FUNNY "anti-male" humor that I'm afraid would have been verboten under those rules. I just don't see the point or advantage of this rule, but I do see a chilling effect on what can be discussed and some FUN.

So with your guidelines you've eliminated challenging and confronting men, you've eliminated having a giggle at their expense, and you've made SUCH a big deal about inviting them, that it sounds like the group can't exist -- or we wouldn't WANT it to -- without their presence. You might consider spending a little time and effort figuring out if there's anything left that can be talked about -- and IF SO, precisely how, because I see a lot of diminishing returns here and chilling effect on speech. I know *I* wouldn't find it a safe or pleasant place to be with these rules. It wouldn't be safe because, as I've pointd out already, women are getting killed every single day by their male partners, but we can't speak badly of men who deserve it in the Group. What is wrong with this picture?

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post right now because I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that it never occured to you that someone who had the shit beaten out of them regularly by a male might still be able to separate the good from the bad.

Oh, I've been separating the good from the bad for a lot longer than you have, probably longer than you've even hd to think about it.

Look, there is a difference between your husband and all other men, and not all men are your husband. Things that affect some or all other men aren't necessarily the same things that will affect your husband, and vice versa. I'm not quite sure why you're conflating the two -- your husband and other men. but you are not being disloyal to or unappreciative of your husband if you speak poorly of men who deserve being spoken about poorly. I don't know if you do any personal psychological or emotional healing work, but this whole little confused nexus of yours would probably be good to explore and heal.

Or not, your choice.