You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Reply #29: isn't the player who goes second assured (potential) victory? [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
29. isn't the player who goes second assured (potential) victory?
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 03:42 AM by foo_bar
Maybe under "real world conditions" the player who knows what he's doing will win regardless, barring a lucky guess by an unschooled second mover (statistically unlikely, mathematically possible). Similar but opposite in that respect to Tic-Tac-Toe: in TTT, the first mover A can't lose when he makes all "correct" moves (although he can be drawn), whereas the second mover B can't win against all-correct mover A even when B makes all correct moves (although he'll draw).

Expressing your example in binary to simplify (?) the almighty XOR, the "board" begins in this state:

001 (1)
011 (3=1+2)
101 (5=1+4)
111 (7=1+2+4)
^^^ XOR
000 (0)

That already looks not so simple. Oh well. So it begins in an even-parity state, meaning the first mover A inherits a losing position on the first move (where odd-parity means the final straw), and second mover B is obliged to keep his opponent on the losing end of eenie-miney-moe. Therein lies the illusion: mover B has all the free will, and A has none of it, since A tautologically spends his first move flipping the desired state into the undesirable one.

So your point is well taken, although it applies as well to statistical fraud as the electoral kind.

On edit: does Marienbad have the loser with the last straw or the winner? I found contradictory accounts on the wicked web, although it's unfair either way. Guess I'll have to rent it:

Last straw loses:
In Marienbad, two players alternately draw counters from one of four nim-heaps formed by 1, 3, 5 and 7 counters. The player making the last move is the loser. Since the nim-value of this game is zero, the second player can always win, which makes Marienbad a distinctly unfair game.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Marienbad.html

Last straw wins:
In the movie, M politely lets X make the first move. Unfortunately, X always loses...In the normal convention, the player who removes the last object wins, in the mis`ere convention the player to move last loses.
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:FrBNhQC8sl0J:www-mgi.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/Teaching/Games-SS02/ch1.ps+marienbad+politely&hl=en
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC