Reply #238: My biggest problem with what you say about the OP

[lakercub]

is that the OP never actually said anything negative about Hillary herself. Not one thing. The pro-Hillary supporters that have been upset on this board have missed that in too many cases. What he brought up was absolutely true. She hurts us in this election more than the other big candidates because of the baggage. So I object to the kool-aid crap. The only kool-aid to drink here is the kool-aid of the Hillary-only supporters who think Hillary or no one, party be damned.

Each of our candidates probably has something that keeps them from being ideal. Obama has inexperience and the color of his skin (how sad is that?). Edwards has his association with 04 as well as the IWR vote which dems hate. Gore is probably the third most hated man by the conservatives (behind Bill and Hillary). The point in bringing these things up isn't divisiveness, it is practicality. We have to know how to address these things, we can't hide from them. And the fact is Hillary has more baggage than anyone...by far. The press will crucify her, the right-wing will mobilize en masse to stop her, a lot of dems don't like her, she voted yes on IWR and has yet to back down on that, and there are plenty of misogynists out there who will vote against her because she is a woman. It is not flame-bait to point this out, it is essential. We have to know how to deal with it and we have to understand the repercussions of our choices.

The pro-Hillary folks have to see she causes more trouble than anyone else. It may be a matter of opinion, but it is as close to established fact as anything can be for 08. But saying that is not flame-bait, it is honest evaluation of the situation. And it is not meant to turn pro-Hillary people against the rest of the party, it is meant as constructive criticism that must be addressed and analyzed. My own analysis concludes that she harms us more than she helps us in 08. I say that not to bait, but to HELP the party. I want us to run a candidate that we all can get behind and that also ensures we win the key senate seats in some of the "purple" states.

As I said before, the OP did nothing wrong and said nothing incorrect (aside, perhaps, from the subject line). But it is the pro-Hillary side that absolutely has to chill out right now. Pointing out that your candidate has weaknesses is not necessarily fighting words. It can actually be constructive. But too many of the pro-Hillary folks see any mention of someone else as absolute dem betrayal and personal attack. I will say again. If Hillary is our nominee, she has my vote and my support...with no hesitation. Kerry was not my choice in 04, but when he was our nominee I supported him 100%. That is the attitude we need.

I also disagree with your idea about tearing into the candidate. Pointing out where she causes us trouble is not tearing into anything. What happened to McCain was a blindside, personal attack that was entirely dishonest. I have seen none of that here, have you? If our candidates have weaknesses we need to point them out, but we don't need to turn it into theatrical hysterics just because we support a different candidate. I support Obama though he has disappointed me somewhat during this campaign. But I have very little bad to say about the others. I just recognize the problems their candidacies may cause (as well as Obama's problems). If that kind of thinking is drinking the kool-aid, then fill 'er up. We need as much of that kool-aid as we can get.

The point isn't to vilify Hillary or her supporters, the point is to show that her candidacy presents problems that no other candidacy does. Far more problems. If the dems as a party decide they can live with that, then I will live with it too. And I will go to bat for her at every turn if she gets the nomination, and I hope all my fellow dems do the same.