Reply #119: This is interesting but I'm not sure how it applies here.

[msmcghee]

From reading the article it seems that Viper Strike is not a missile, but a modified version of existing BAT submunitions. (BAT stands for "Brilliant Anti-Tank".) These are smart bomblets that are carried in a missile that are released over a battle area where they use infra-red or laser designators to find their way to specific targets. Once the larger missile carrying them releases them it is spent and falls to the ground. The submunitions use various target tracking capabilities to autonomously select from many dispersed targets and hopefully take them out.

That doesn't seem relevant to this situations for several reasons. However, as an aside they did describe their ability to use the infrared seeker of these BAT submunitions to hit the "engine deck" of a vehicle and produce little "collateral" damage when the warhead was removed. This could be relevant - but any missile with suitable guidance and the explosives removed could conceivably be used for that. Also, why use a system (BAT) capable of taking out a dozen or more heavily armored tanks with one shot for one or two ambulances? And also, - the ambulance photos show the engine compartment intact and a hole in the roof of the ambulance - that the witnesses claim was caused by a missile of some type. So that doesn't seem so relevant after-all.

This leaves us where we were before - with the (remote) possibility that a missile hit the ambulance and did not explode - either on purpose or it was a dud - it makes no difference. (An exploding missile of any design would have left nothing but twisted hulk.)

OK - what kind of missile comes straight down from above? Every video I have seen of these missiles show them coming in at a relatively low angle. If it was fired from a drone the angle might be higher as drones use their small size to allow them to over-fly their targets. Helicopter fired missiles are almost always low angle - as the helicopter uses the clutter of the horizon for concealment.

The problem here is that drones do not (can not) carry missiles that are a foot in diameter. Missiles large enough to put a 1 ft diam hole in the roof weigh far more than a drone could lift and would generally dwarf the drone carrying it. Then there's the other questions. If it did not explode (making the driver a liar automatically) where is it? There would have to be some identifiable remains of the missile. Remember the photos of the scuds on the ground in Tel Aviv? Those came in at a very high speed (ballistic) but still left very recognizable remains - even after they were hit by Patriots. A 1 ft diameter missile would be 10 to 15 ft long. It would have fins probably spanning 3 to 4 ft. Where are the cuts (or bent back metal) in the roof for these large fins? It goes on and on.

But, Scurrilous, there's a larger issue here. I don't care if Israel committed war crimes by attacking these ambulances. I have no illusions that Israel is incapable of committing "war crimes". If they did it then they should be condemned. I will join you and others here in doing that. I have no reason to defend Israel "no matter what". My only interest is fairness.

Most people in this forum who are condemning Israel over this incident - have no problem with the concept that news organizations spin and twist the news - to conform to their readers' expectations - when that spin makes the left look bad. We all hate it when the RW media says that we are out-of-touch, incapable of defending America, blame America first, etc. Yet, many of these same people, are ready to accept the most outrageous spin - when it supports their beliefs.

I have a background in the design and testing of missile systems going back many years. I would not say that I am an expert on current designs but I am quite familiar with how missiles are used generally and what they are capable of. I will also admit, that despite my background, I could be wrong about this. If I am I'll gladly say so.

All I'm asking for is some plausible way of putting the evidence (that was presented by the Lebanese side) together in a narrative that makes sense. That says - here's what happened - and the pieces fit together. In this case however, there is nothing that fits - nothing that makes sense to me.

I think what happened is that a couple of ambulance personnel decided on their own (or perhaps were encouraged by some friends in Hizb'allah, or they could even be members themselves) to do their part for the war effort. So they staged this incident to be able to accuse Israel of egregious pre-meditated war-crimes. I think they reasoned that the holes in the exact center of the Red Cross emblem would be dramatic proof that Israel targetd the ambulance purposely and that it could not possibly have been a mistake. All they had to do was take the ventilators off the roofs of two ambulances, hack up the surface with an axe or something to look like shrapnel and find a "victim" to corroborate their tale. (The story about the missile neatly amputating his leg and then disappearing and/or exploding into a huge fireball is quite imaginative.)

They hoped that with the help of some sympathetic (anti-Israel) news people (who I think were given special acces to the scene afterward) that the original accusations would be carried prominently around the world. I would not be surprised if the news organization in Australia that carried the story was not in on the project - and thought they were doing their part perhaps, to save the lives of Lebanese civilians. They all figured that before this could be checked out in the confusion of the war - that it would have served its purpose. To add to the rising public pressure on Israel to stand down. I think they succeeded.

If you really think I am wrong - then please offer something - anything that will make sense out of the many contradictory and sometimes impossible versions of this account that are being defended. Or, if you don't think you are up to the task, find some human rights organization that believes this is a real account of war crimes - and I'll follow up on that for you. I have been unable to find any organization doing that myself - which seems to confirm my suspicions. But, as I said, if Israel did this, then let's hang 'em for it. I'll be on your side. But, so far, my sense of reason and fairness and all the evidence presented so far - compels me to call BS on this whole episode.

Cheers.