Reply #72: Hmm, you are missing the point here.

[Shaktimaan]

Discrimination and "second class" are not especially different. Either term works for the purpose of our discussion. But I was never arguing that anti-Arab discrimination doesn't exist in Israel. Quite the opposite... I even bolded it so it would stand out.

I WAS saying that Israel being a Jewish state does not automatically relegate non-Jews to a second class status, as you were arguing. If that were the case then wouldn't every other country with an ethnic national identity have the same problem?

I can think of no other democratic state which makes it so clear that the state's heroes are all of the majority ethnic group

What are you talking about? There are plenty of famous, accomplished Israeli Arabs. Nazar Mahmud is a famous figure skater. Walid Badir is a soccer star. Ashraf Barhom is a well-known actor. Salim Joubran was the first Arab Supreme Court justice. Sayed Kashua is the star of a sit-com about the issues Israeli Arabs face; it has a majority Arab cast. Reda Mansour is the former ambassador to Ecuador. Yusef Mishlab is a former IDF general. Angelina Fares won the Ms. Israel contest.

And Majalli Wahbee is a former PRESIDENT (not Prime Minister) of Israel.

There are plenty of Israeli Arab "heroes." If you are looking for examples of Arabs who specifically helped Israel gain independence in 1948 you obviously aren't going to find any. There WAS a war between the two groups, after all. And for the first several years Arabs truly were treated as security threats... they were very much second class citizens. (But still not as bad as the US treated its Japanese citizens at roughly the same time of course.) But I hardly think this fact then means that Israeli Arabs were forever doomed to live like that.

Wouldn't you feel 2nd class if the US made it clear that only non-Jews contributed to the state's independence

No. To my knowledge there were not any Jews who played a significant role in America's war for independence. Is this really an argument you want to explore?

On July 31, 2003 Israel enacted the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Provision), 5763-2003, a one year amendment to Israel's Citizenship Law denying citizenship and Israeli residence to Palestinians who reside in the West Bank or Gaza Strip and who marry Israelis.

Now THIS is truly an example of discrimination against Israeli Arabs that is both obvious and truly disgusting. But as I was saying, discrimination against Arabs exists... without a doubt, (usually not in so blatant a fashion though.) I am not in favor of this law but I will say a few things in defense of it as it applies specifically to your argument. This law was enacted during the second intifada when a security threat did (and still does) in fact exist. The provisions of the law itself demonstrate that it is really about security, (although it is undeniably discriminatory.) For instance it only applies to men under 35, or women under 25.

But the best evidence that this is not a great example of a two tiered system is its very existence. This law was argued right up to the supreme court where it was very narrowly passed. It is temporary by nature and has to be renewed every year. And (most importantly) is the fact that this is the worst thing by far that I was able to find. If there was really the kind of system you're insisting on, then where are the laws discriminating against Druze? hey aren't Jewish but also don't pose a security threat.

Again, no one doubts that this is discrimination. But your argument was that the very NATURE of a state that identifies itself as Jewish means that all non-Jews are second class citizens. But aside from this single (albeit extremely relevant) example all you've demonstrated is garden variety discrimination. Hey, even switzerland has banned the building of minarets recently, while France has banned the hijab at public schools. Discrimination certainly exists. Especially in Israel.

But you have yet to demonstrate that it is due to Israel's identification as a Jewish state and not the fact that there has been a conflict between Arabs and Jews for the better part of a century.