Reply #36: As the photographer said to Mr Schwartzenegger.....

[Pert_UK]

:-)

"Most mass-murders ARE planned out to some extent" - OK, I'll go with that for the sake of argument. Now - would it be easier or more difficult to commit that mass murder if you didn't have a gun? I reckon it would be more difficult - you'd either have to get a gun from somewhere illegally (involving considerable effort and giving more opportunities for your detection) or come up with some other kind of weaponry.

Now....if you come up with ANY other kind of weaponry, then I reckon I'm ahead of you - if you use acid or petrol bombs (molotovs) then you get one attempt at a time and if I run away then I stand a decent chance of escape. How much of that stuff can you carry anyway? How much time between attacks do I have before you're ready to go again? How many people would Michael Ryan (Hungerford) if he hadn't been armed with multi-shot firearms?

Even if you source a gun illegally, you have still had to take one more step before you are able to commit your crime, and you have already broken a law - if you're found trying to procure an illegal gun, you're arrested and probably jailed (in the UK). You have already broken a law.

We're both making some assumptins here - you seem to be assuming that a murder or suicide will happen regardless, whereas I'm assuming that SOME murders & suicides (especially impulsive ones) will be prevented if the simplest and most effective (arguably) means of committing the act is removed from the equation.

There's also the idea of causation - I'm not saying that guns cause people to murder, but what I am saying is that some people are powerless and ignored by society. Some become "unbalanced" and detached from reality. If they have a gun and, as they perceive it, the means to assert themselves on society and make an impact, the temptation to do so can grow until it's overwhelming. If they don't have a gun, either they flip out with a knife (easier to defend against) or they just continue in their own way, being the detached loner who everyone ignores. In the same way that a slice of pizza in the fridge calls out "Eat me!" to the dieter in the next room, a gun calls out "Use me!" to the unempowered nutcase.

I'm on dodgy ground here, I realise, and will emphasise it by quoting Barney from The Simpsons, "These fumes aren't as good as beer. Sure, I'm all dizzy and nauseous, but where's my inflated sense of self-esteem? (Reaches down and finds gun)...Aarrghh..THERE'S my inflated sense of self-esteem!".

Anyway, my key point is that if someone flips out (and many of us lose control occasionally) and they have got a gun, the odds of someone dying are far higher if they've got a gun, than if they haven't.

BTW - you paint a delightful picture. "I'd rather be cleanly shot...". Yes please, if you're going to attack me, make sure I'm dead instantly and don't know anything about it, rather than given a chance to defend myself and get injured, rather than killed.