Reply #189: Finally, you post a source

[JonQ]

so I can debunk it.

The first isn't about victims at all, but about suicides. Not many innocent people are forced at gunpoint to commit suicide against their will.

And if you'll look at the data they use, they refer only to a handful of states and of those the gun data was from a 2001 phone poll conducted of a small population that merely asked if they had a gun present. This data is immediately suspect in those states with strict gun control laws where such information could wind the owner up in jail don't you think? And surprisingly enough, those states where it is illegal to own a gun had individuals reporting the lowest gun ownership rates.

They even put Washington DC, the city with the highest rate of gun violence in the country, as having the lowest rate of gun ownership by far.

Are you telling me those stats aren't suspect? Besides which, a simply correlation study would have been possible for all 50 states plus territories plotting suicides to gun ownership. They did not do this, why do you think that is? Also, if you look at the states they did include all the ones from the high suicide rate groups were in the south and midwest, areas known for higher rates of suicide in general, whereas all the low suicide rate states were in the north east (except hawaii) and all from states with a lower suicide rate in general. They failed to take this in to account.

The states for one group had an N=15, and cut off many that were virtually identical in percentages, but not in the south or midwest. Whereas the other group had an N=6 and likewise cut off many other states that were nearly identical in total numbers.

When someone with a background in statistics sees these sleight of hand tricks it becomes obvious that the researchers found a weak correlation and trimmed the data to make it significant. Any proper statistician would have given them a good slap across the face if they'd presented this data.

And your second link only provides an overview of other peoples results without linking to their actual methodology.

Remember I never doubted that studies existed which came to a conclusion that guns were evil. I doubted the methodology involved. With creative stats work you can "prove" anything. And the first one failed in that regard, the 2nd likewise will but has succeeded in hiding it's materials and methods section.