I'm

[socialshockwave]

in favor of feminism; women should have the same rights as males do.

I'm not, however, in favor of certain BRANDS of feminism I've seen; the ones where women consider themselves superior to males and treat all men with disdain and contempt.

"Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" stands out at me.

Reverse-discrimination is just as bad as the original discrimination.

[bobbolink]

1. I swear I have never thrown a rock at a boy, and promise you I never will.

:rofl:

[SargassoSea]

4. Feminine = Feminist?!

Last I heard, bobbolink, feminism was indeed about sisterhood not the “feminine” arts. I’ve known quite a number of men who practiced the “feminine” a whole hell of a lot better than I ever have and I am a FAAB; a woman. The feminine has absolutely nothing to do with feminism or Women’s Liberation, as it was once called. In fact it is quite the opposite.

All human beings are capable of empathy, but only roughly half of them have been trained since birth to *have* these qualities and to constantly cultivate these qualities in order to be “good women“ who LISTEN to others and NURTURE others’ hurt feelings and if they are not performing these *natural* feminine duties we are BAD women, BAD sisters.

There are a precious handful of places on the internet where women, from every walk of life; every age, class, race and sexual orientation gather to discuss feminist theory. We are not concerned with men in any other way than the political class Men. It takes actual work to find them but they are there.

[bobbolink]

5. And your diatribe has precisely WHAT to do with the bit of humor I offered?

I dont know who you are going off on, but it isn't all that enlightening.

bye now....

[SargassoSea]

7. Diatribe?

That wasn’t what it felt like to me when I wrote it.

In any case you seemed to me to have been lamenting the loss of sisterhood and attributing its demise to some kind of rift between *feminine feminists* and feminists who grabbed for and embraced *power*, or masculine feminists I suppose you could call them.

Just thought I’d let you know that there ARE places where “old school” feminists still talk and listen to each other with dignity and respect.

[bobbolink]

8. As I said, from what I have seen, those "places" only exist within a few orders of nuns.

[SargassoSea]

10. But I'm not a nun.

And I hang out with women on-line who are not judgemental of other women for the circumstances of their pasts, are focusing on further deconstructing the means of our oppression and strategizing how best to counteract those forces in our daily lives. This is something that we do every single day.

All I'm saying is that women shouldn't assume that sisterhood is dead outside the convent walls.

[bobbolink]

11. What you are describing is very rare. I've never heard or seen it anywhere for years.

Good luck with it, and if it is truly nurturing, then I hope it spreads. I just don't see any real hope of that.

[SargassoSea]

13. It's too bad

that you don't see any hope, bobbolink.

And it does spread one woman at a time. :)

[riderinthestorm]

16. I have several ex-nun friends who spent many years in the convent and it's as bitchy, catty

and petty as any other group place.

They are humans too with all the foibles and troubles that those of us who aren't nuns have. My one friend actually left the nunnery at 78 years old! She was placed in a senior citizens home with other fellow retired nuns and found the backstabbing to just be too much!

Unless you've been a nun, I'm not sure idealizing their lifestyle honestly portrays the reality. Maybe there are some communities where it's different but the ones I know who have gotten out, are pretty deeply cynical about life within the cloistered walls.

[seabeyond]

19. really.... lol. wow. gotta tell ya, the whole catty thing leaves me cold

have absolutely no desire to compete or whatever that takes a person to that.

[bobbolink]

20. YEs, some are like that, as are "retireement homes". I have lived in buildings of seniors, and the

gossiping and backstabbing was horrible.

I said that "some" orders of nuns were what I saw. And I was close enough to know what it was I was seeing. I certainly wouldn't claim they were all like that.... far from it. The ones I knew were pretty liberal... actually, make that radical. ^_^ They were the ones getting arrested at peace events, etc. I protested with them, among other things. They are the real thing. (One was so radical that the Pope's emissary was sent to "straighten her out" ~~guffaw~~)

I'm sure that is not true of all orders, and I never said it was.

[riderinthestorm]

14. Welcome SargassoSea! I too have found true sistership at all of the rape crisis centers

and women's shelters I've worked and volunteered at. The food pantry that I volunteer at also has some true bonding, cooperation,and mutual respect amongst the women there.

I haven't been involved with too many corporate powerplayers but the women I know who play within that type of environment thrive on that kind of competition.

While it's not for me, I don't discount that kind of "feminism" either. Powerful women have always stepped on peoples toes to get to the top. But then men do it too. A utopia of cooperation and empathy sounds wonderful but human history shows us to be a most selfish species. To work towards that is ideal but I wouldn't hold my breath it will ever happen.

So like you I tend to congregate within those places that DO foster the type of sisterhood that is respectful and dignified for all. They are out there and I agree with you, they exist in more places than the convent.

[seabeyond]

6. there was a study that showed women were more empathetic than men. they filled out questionnaires.

then there was a study more recently that was more controlled and had observers and they found there was no difference between men and women in their ability to be empathetic.

in the first study, the men answered the questionnaire as they had been conditioned for their gender role as did the women.

[SargassoSea]

9. Hmm

"in the first study, the men answered the questionnaire as they had been conditioned for their gender role as did the women."

Have gender roles disappeared? No, they haven't. It makes me wonder why (besides more control and observers) the results were different in the second study you reference.

[seabeyond]

12. one of the things they found

when declaring that the study was on empathy, men did worse. when men did not know study was about empathy, they were with women. saying, because they knew they were suppose to do poorly on empathy, they did. when they didnt know that is what was tested, they did fine.

cordelia fine has some good stuff on it. i have heard her interviewed. read a little. but she has a book i want to get.

[Teaser]

15. "All human beings are capable of empathy"

This is an assertion, not an argument.

I don't think I've ever felt real empathy. I can feel compassion, but empathy...knowing what someone else feels like, no have never grokked that. And I don't know that I'd want to.

[bobbolink]

17. Maybe it is in the definition that you are using. "Compassion" means to feel with.

So, if you are compassionate with someone, you are feeling with them.

Which sounds like what you said you weren't sure you wanted to do.

[seabeyond]

18. wow. then things like racism and sexism would have to be thought thru intellectually

not by feel. that would be a tough one. i cannot imagine NOT having empathy. why i have to know the end of a story or a movie. empathy weighs me down and ruins it, unless i know how it is going to end. interesting that you have never experience, at all, ever. lol. i truly cannot even comprehend how a person can go thru life, never experiencing it.

really. as i type my mind is flittering thru out life and all i do in empathy. my boys, even my hubby that insists he isnt, yet continually shows thru conversation and action, he absolutely does.

[SargassoSea]

26. "Empathy" is now a meaningless word?

“Empathy” is nothing more than the ability to identify with another person’s plight. Empathy does not require a person to have had the exact same point-by-point experience as another in order to be valid because to do so would render the word (and very concept) entirely useless. No two individuals CAN have the same exact point-by-point experience. It’s impossible.

*The personal is political* does not mean that each individual is a political class unto themselves, in feminism it means that a woman draws upon her own experiences of male oppression and expands and extrapolates them to identify with other women who have had similar experiences.

Empathy is political. Feminism is political.

[seabeyond]

2. girls rock, boys drool. i think that is the chant for girls today, in elementary school

oh, my boys had such issue with this. even at a young age, we discussed so many social issues. and yes, i would have to address the history of women, the reason we teach our young girls to be confident and in so doing, we have allowed too far the other way, bringing girls up, by knocking down the boys.

but the thing

in having these experience has allowed conversations that will be with my boys for a lifetime that will be a part of their journey in a number of different ways that will e positive for them.

[tigereye]

24. great thinking as usual, sea

:thumbsup:

[RandomKoolzip]

3. I think we're dealing with a canard here -

such accusations of "reverse sexism" (eegads) sidestep systemic hierarchies and entrenched power relationships that are endemic to most cultures.

[femrap]

21. You forget that

our existence is in a patriarchy. Rape of a woman has been referred to as 'boys will be boys.'

We're not throwing rocks at you....that is just the MSM and the other propagandists making you upset w/ women. We're not throwing rocks at 'boys.'

We're trying to make a living....72 cents on every $ a dude makes.

All of these stereotypical and strict gender roles are crap. Males have always had the rules in their favor....just look at organized religions for starters.

Geez, you live in Canada. We're here in country that endured W for 8 years. Shit.

[Dash87]

22. I think we need a much more feminine society

Most murder and crime is committed by men. Would it really kill men to become more emotional, and not strive to be unfeeling, strong-silent types? That's the problem with society these days. The male, "show no emotion, care for nobody else, race to be the best" mentality.

I know that this will offend some people, but just saying. :)

[seabeyond]

25. the thing, we have a society and culture not only promoting this for our boys, but our girls

are gaining a foothold too. they can be as tough, harsh, aggressive as the boys. a culture of net where ugly is revered. no, it doesn't kill a male to have free access to emotion. as a matter of fact, if our boys are allowed, i have found they are much stronger, healthier, balanced in life. they can identify and acknowledge what they feel, and address it instead of hiding from it. does not "feminize" them. it does the opposite. makes them strong and develop character.

i got really messed up on the gender thing growing up. i had two brothers a year and two years difference from me. i hung with them. my parents raised me as a person, not a gender. foolish me, i did the same with my boys, without thinking.

it works. they dont lose being male, they are able to do it healthy and theirs to figure out. help them to be people, and they know how to put it in its place

[tigereye]

23. yes, but that was not the point of second wave feminism

it was a reaction to the cultural, economic, social, sexual, etc. dominance of men, but it was much more than that. And that reactive aspect was the "spin" if you will, that the right-wing ran with. You have to remember that when feminist movements began, women had been told that they had no power, were given none, and could only aspire to certain professions, if any! I think people need to re-read some early feminist tomes (Friedan, etc.) to get the feel for what it was really like then. I recently had to explain to my son's geometry teacher why, although I was quite good at math and took advanced courses), there was little or no encouragement or social support for me to study any kind of higher math in college. Women were not encouraged in that way, then.

Also that kind of anger is often present at the beginning of social movements, particularly those with origins in the 60s/70s.



and welcome to DU btw- apologies if you are more familiar with second wave feminism than I am assuming... :hi: