Most U.S. Kids Sentenced to Die In Prison Are Black

[Number23]

"Ugly Truth: Most U.S. Kids Sentenced to Die In Prison Are Black"

See alot of cross-postings in this forum. Thought I'd "cross post" this one from AAIG.

On Monday the U.S. Supreme Court heard two cases that could have major implications for the way juvenile offenders are treated in our criminal justice system. Sullivan v. Florida and Graham v. Florida both involve men who are serving life without the possibility of parole for crimes they were convicted of as teenagers -- crimes in which no one was killed.

Joe Sullivan was only 13 years old when he was accused of sexually assaulting a 72-year-old woman in her Pensacola, Fla., home, hours after he and a group of older teenagers robbed her house. Sullivan, who reportedly suffers from mental disabilities, insisted that, while he participated in the robbery, he did not commit the rape. But his co-defendants, 15-year-old Michael Gulley and 17-year-old Nathan McCants, 17 pinned the crime on him. Both were tried as juveniles; Sullivan was tried as an adult.

The two cases before the Supreme Court involve two people who were involved in non-homicide crimes as teenagers and who were both sentenced to life without parole. Both defendants are black.

Op-ed in The Washington Post last month on this: "A sentence too cruel for children"

Here are a couple of great links for information on the injustice of racial discrepancies in prison sentencing in America - http://www.sentencingproject.org/template/page.cfm?id=122

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/drugs/war/key-facts.htm

Great quote from this site:
"Most drug offenders are white. Five times as many whites use drugs as blacks. But blacks comprise the great majority of drug offenders sent to prison. The solution to this racial inequality is not to incarcerate more whites, but to reduce the use of prison for low-level drug offenders and to increase the availability of substance abuse treatment."

[mcablue]

1. It's correct that most drug offenders are white. But isn't the story about rape?

What are the statistics on rape?

[Number23]

2. Well, the story is about burglary and rape. I included the HRW link because it deals with racial

discrepancies in prison sentencing. Even though it's about drugs, it still takes an interesting look at the discrepancies.

Having a look for discrepancies in prison sentencing for rape now.

Edit: Having a bit of trouble locating numbers for rape. TONS of info on racial discrepancies in drug and death penalty cases though. But I'll keep looking.

[Sultana]

3. Post-racial my ass

Shame on you, America!

[Number23]

6. You hear that sound??

That's the sound of about 100 million Americans with melanin (and probably another 100 million without melanin) vehemently agreeing with you. :thumbsup:

[David Zephyr]

73. Exactly.

Post-racial, my ass, too. :thumbsup:

[PDJane]

4. Another part of the solution

is to abolish mandatory sentencing and private sector jails.

[depakid]

5. Also covered here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6988445

Note the usual suspects for whom no punishment is ever enough-

[Number23]

7. Thanks for the link. Completely missed that. Don't know how because black issues are seldom

discussed in this forum unless there is something particularly "heated" about them.

Thanks for posting your link.

[EFerrari]

26. One outcome for me of the last "heated" debate here

was several weeks of research on Dr. Gates. He's got to be one of the best storytellers I've ever heard. Before what he was put through last summer, I mostly thought of him as a theory hotshot that I'd read in grad school. He's light years from where he was at the time I was reading him back in 1990 or so. His were just 20 of the 300 pages I had to get through every night before falling into bed.

And Skip Gates sort of naturally leads to a web of other people, like West and then Smiley and wow, there went my summer. :)

[Number23]

33. Ohhh.. I know this is weird but I have a bit of crush on Cornell West.

No, he ain't the prettiest picture on the wall but I luuuuuv that man. :)

Edit: I just remembered a post I made regarding Dr. West. I'm always talking about him on this site because as I mentioned, I luuuuuv him, but I made reference to a fabulous point that he made here about the alleged "prevalence" of homophobia in the black community.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5884427#5885115

[EFerrari]

39. I also love my good brother West.

lol

Thanks for the link.

[EFerrari]

42. Ack. That thread!

And meanwhile the sneaky San Francisco Archbishop of my former church must have enjoyed how he handed off the responsibility for the Catholic funded, Mormon implemented H8 campaign to black Baptists. My head is still spinning from that one.

Btw, you do know that the CSPAN archives have a bunch of Dr. West's appearances? They just redid their website, too.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/search-results.php?keywords=Cornel+West

[Number23]

48. *gasp* Archives of Dr. West??! Are you trying to make my husband jealous??

:)

Yes, that thread.... ye gods. But I'd be lying if I said it's been the only one to make the bile rise in my throat over the last 12 months. But one thing I've learned is that there is apparently NOTHING and I mean absolutely NOTHING that cannot be blamed on black people and black culture. Unless of course, it's something good.

You know that song that says "woman is the nigger of the world?" Three guesses who the FIRST nigger was...

[EFerrari]

51. LOL. How about a bumpersticker

"Zora Neale Hurston was right."

Have a good night and thanks for the thread.

[Number23]

55. Thanks. Good night to you too.

[Number23]

8. Link to an excellent read from the Sentencing Project web site

http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_mmhousetestimonyonRD.pdf (PDF)

A series of studies conducted over the past thirty years has examined the degree to which disproportionate rates of incarceration for African Americans are related to greater involvement in crime. Examining national data for 1979, criminologist Alfred Blumstein concluded that 80% of racial disparity could be explained by greater involvement in crime, although a subsequent study reduced this figure to 76% for the 1991 prison population.1 But a similar analysis of 2004 imprisonment data by sentencing scholar Michael Tonry now finds that only 61% of the black incarceration rate is explained by disproportionate engagement in criminal behavior.2 Thus, nearly 40% of the racial disparity in incarceration today cannot be explained by differential offending patterns.

...Thus, while greater involvement in some crimes is related to higher rates of incarceration for African Americans, the weight of the evidence to date suggests that a significant proportion of the disparities we currently observe is not a function of disproportionate criminal behavior.

[left is right]

9. I don't aim this as sarcasm but

tell us something we didn't already know. Actually, I should thank your for the post but the article's headline is something that everyone with any conscience alrady knows

[Number23]

10. And your point is what? That this should not be discussed because "everyone knows this?"

I didn't even know this and I'm black. I would have suspected it but I didn't know it as fact until I saw this article.

[Lilith Velkor]

11. Recommended. n/t

[vadawg]

12. i guess a more pertinent question would be, are the numbers of youths who commit these crimes

black or white, stands to reason if more kids who are left handed commit rapes then more lefties are gonna be in jail...

[Starry Messenger]

13. I really hope you are not actually serious.

[vadawg]

14. no of course not, because theres no way that more kids of onw group could possibly be committing

more serious crimes than kids of another group, so the question stands say in rape cases where juveniles are involved is there a higher percentage of one group in jail due to the fact that the group commits more rapes than other groups... simple question that bears a lot of relevance on the numbers in jail for rape...

[Number23]

15. Yes, that's it. These kids deserve it, right?

Black children are being sentenced to life without parole for non-homicide crimes because of course, black people just COMMIT more crimes, right??

Read post #8 in this thread. I hope it does you some much needed good and gives you some seriously needed education.

[vadawg]

16. simple question was are the rates in line with the groups commiting the crimes

as i said that is the only thing that matters when it comes to the actual rates of those in jail, not the percentages of the groups in society. If suddenly every person with red hair killed someone, then we would have a higher proportion of redheads in jail for murder than the percentage of redheads in society, sorry if questioning the premise of your rant offends you..

[Number23]

17. I have not ranted -- YET. And even though you are trying to provoke a rant

you won't get one.

Since you obviously have no interest in educating yourself and instead have decided to toss out pointless and embarrassing analogies comparing the well-documented issue of racial disparities in prison sentencing to some BS about redheads, I really don't even know why you're in this thread.

[vadawg]

18. seeing as you cant see the point ill try again, whats the statistics of crimes of this nature that

are committed by a young black guy compared to the other races, do you find that these crimes are committed more by young black guys than other races, if so then that would explain why more young black guys are in jail for this crime. hope this makes it easier for you to understand what i was asking...

[EFerrari]

22. So black male babies are born pre-disposed to rape?

That's what you're arguing.

NOW would be a good time to stop.

[vadawg]

24. lol jump to conclusions much, thats like asking are white babies pre-disposed to serial killings

seeing as most serial killers are white males. without the raw numbers you dont know whats happening.

[EFerrari]

28. No, I don't jump to conclusions much. n/t

[noiretextatique]

62. sadly, but probably typically

this poster is a cop.

[Number23]

64. "this poster is a cop."

Okay, please, PLEASE tell me that you are not serious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE tell me that you are joking!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!

[AspenRose]

67. She's serious as a heart attack.

[Number23]

70. I weep for our nation. Seriously. WEEP.

[show us yer moobs]

75. I am holding a box of Kleenex as I type this.

x(

[Number23]

25. Since you are apparently incapable of going to post #8 and opening a PDF

Allow me to highlight a few critical points from the document:

For vadawg: INCIDENTS OF RACIAL DISPARITIES IN THE DOCUMENT ON RACIAL DISPARITIES THAT YOU REFUSE TO READ BECAUSE IT APPARENTLY WILL CRUSH SOME PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS YOU HAVE ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE AND CRIME:

*...while greater involvement in some crimes is related to higher rates of incarceration for African Americans, the weight of the evidence to date suggests that a significant proportion of the disparities we currently observe is not a function of disproportionate criminal behavior.

(vadawg, this means that black people are going to jail at rates that are DISPROPORTIONATE to the amount of crime being committed by blacks. Disproportionate: not proportionate; out of proportion, as in size or number. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disproportionate)

* In 2005, African Americans represented 14% of current drug users, yet constituted 33.9% of persons arrested for a drug offense, and 53% of persons sentenced to prison for a drug offense.

(vadawg, this means that even though WHITE PEOPLE are FAR more likely to actually COMMIT THE DAMNED CRIME, it's BLACK PEOPLE who are the ones going to jail. That is in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the beliefs that you apparently hold.)

Now, as much as I've enjoyed this exercise in trying to help somebody else with their basic reading and comprehension skills, I'm just about done. You'll have to take it from here though I have the sneaking suspicion that you won't.

[vadawg]

29. and as i said i would like to see the raw data on the arrests, just saying a drug offense means

nothing, having an ounce of MJ is totally different than a pound of meth, yet it dosent break it down, and i still didnt see any numbers there for the reason of the original post, ie violent rapes/robberies etc without the raw numbers you cant think that its the whole story.

[Number23]

32. Well then find the damned raw data!

This is nothing new. This is DOCUMENTED and has been for DECADES.

If this document that was presented before the US Congress and Dept of Homeland Security, and the links that I've provided in this OP are not enough to assuage your "quest for knowledge" on black rape statistics then find them yourself and quit trying to disparage countless studies because it doesn't fit your foolish agenda.

[vadawg]

34. well from your own original post, seems that others have questions on the numbers

Race of
Victims///////////////////////////////////Race of Rapists %
2005 Rapes//#Victims/////Total///////White////Black/////Other////Unknown
White//////////111,490/////100 %////////44.5/////33.6//////19.6 //////*2.3 *
Black////////////36,620/////100 %/////////0.0 *//100.0///////0.0 *//////0.0 *
2004 Rapes
White///////////139,900////100 %////////65.1///////8.3 *////16.4 *////10.1 *
Black/////////////39,300////100 %/////////0.0 *////89.8//////10.2 */////0.0 *

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/664005-inter-racial-crime.html#ixzz0WiliUPma


going by these figures it would seem that there is a larger percentage than the general population of rape suspects coming from the black community at least in 2005, though i dont think that it can really be 0% for white on black rapes, that dosent make any sense unless the number was so small it didnt show up, so my question is simple in 2005 if these numbers where correct wouldnt it make statistical sense for 33.6% of rapists who raped white women to be black and wouldnt that number be higher than the general population.... and if they got convictions on 100% of the rape cases then to someone just looking at the numbers going to jail it maight seemed skewed racially rather than just being the number of criminals convicted..

[EFerrari]

43. You've got to be kidding.

Does the term "American apartheid" not ring a bell for you?

Search "black disproportionate criminal justice". This idea can't be new to you.

[vadawg]

44. seemingly you would rather throw out catchphrases than actually look at the numbers for the young

people in jail for life, i guess its much easier to just assume something as fact rather than to look at the data and make a decision based on it...

[EFerrari]

46. The thing is, I don't know anyone who studies these matters

who doesn't acknowledge that young black people, especially males, are disproportionately targeted in our criminal justice system.

Not a one.

Do you not ever read any professional literature?

[vadawg]

47. still dosent answer the simple question what are the raw numbers for these crimes

im not ruling out racism but it could also just as easily be that the crimes are largely committed by certain groups, whether that is cultural, gangs or whatever, it would be nice to have the numbers in order to make an informed decision rather than relying on second hand info, wouldnt you like to be able to look at the numbers and be able to draw your own conclusions?

[EFerrari]

53. I do draw my own conclusions, thanks. n/t

[vadawg]

54. lol 2+2=7 okay you have a good night

[EFerrari]

56. There are no numbers that will sum to the argument you're making.

That's why you can't find them.

[vadawg]

57. not looking to find a certain number just looking for the actual numbers

unlike some i havent just accepted the math on the links, id like to see the numbers either way....

[agoraphile]

68. There is a statistical term called "per capita". It's pretty straightforward.

Just sayin'

[Raineyb]

72. No it's not. Numbers can be skewed.

If you only suspect people of certain races, arrest them more often, try them more often, and convict them more often it is not evidence that they are more likely to commit crime. It's evidence that your method of "law enforcement" is biased because while you're targeting one specific group people of other groups are getting away with shit right under your damn nose.

But keep "just saying" based on shit your pulled out of your ass so we'll know exactly how much credence to give you.

[Starry Messenger]

63. You need to brush up on logical fallacies

at least for starters...

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/confusing-cause-and-effect.html

It really scares me to think you might actually hold a job in law enforcement. I hope for all of our sakes it's not with a department that deals with human beings.

[depakid]

19. Tell us if you think this girl would be in for life if she were white:

16-Year Old Got Life Without Parole for Killing Her Abusive Pimp

Sara Kruzan was 11 years old, a middle school student from Riverside, Calif., when she met a man -- he called himself GG -- who was almost three times her age. GG took her under his wing; he would buy her gifts, take her and her friends rollerskating. "He was like a father figure," she recalls.

Despite suffering severe bouts of depression as a child, until then, Kruzan was a good student, an "overachiever" in her words. But her mother was abusive and addicted to drugs; as for her father, she had only met him a couple of times. So, more and more, GG filled in.

"GG was there -- sometimes," she said. "He would talk to me and take me out and give me all these lavish gifts and do all these things for me …" Before long, he started talking to her about sex, giving her his expert advice on what men were really like and telling her that she didn't "need to give it up for free."

Unbeknownst to her, GG was grooming Kruzan to be a prostitute. When she was 13, he raped her. "He uses his manhood to hurt," Kruzan recalls, "Like, break you in. I guess."

Kruzan worked for GG as a prostitute for three years. The hours were 6 p.m. until 5:30 or 6 in the morning. She and "the other girls" would come back and hand over their earnings to him. "He was, like, married to all of us I guess," she says. " … Everything was his."

After years of prostitution and sexual abuse, when she was 16, Kruzan snapped: She killed GG, was arrested and convicted of first-degree murder. Despite attempts by her lawyer to have her sentenced as a juvenile, the judge described her crime as "well thought-out" and sentenced her to life without parole.

"My judge told me that I lacked moral scruples," she recalls, a term she did not know the meaning of. But the meaning of her sentence was all too clear. Life without parole, she says, "means I'm gonna die here."

http://www.alternet.org/rights/143635/16-year_old_got_life_without_parole_for_killing_her_abusive_pimp_--_should_teens_be_condemned_to_die_in_jail/

[vadawg]

23. no idea, not my case, just because shes black does not mean she didnt commit 1st degree murder

personally i got to say i could say it was more than justified, but id think that if she was white, black or green. Still dosent negate my point about we need to see the statistics of the crimes/convictions/races before you can start saying that the numbers of young black guys are getting life are skewed. As i saw in the article others were concerned that they didnt have the numbers.... ill give you an example, most of the guys i deal with are black and hispanic, is this racist or are they the largest gangs in the areas i work in. anybody looking at my numbers could skew them any way they wanted... thats why i always like to see the raw numbers before i jump to judgement...

[depakid]

27. Maybe, maybe not- a lot depends on the prosecuter and the judge

I'll tell you one thing- a case with these facts in a civilized nation like Australia might be worth a year or two- and I've seen a good many that end up with the equivalent of probation.

The major reason for that is that Aussies are generally less concerned with delivering harsh punishment and more interested in overall justice and protection of society.

[vadawg]

31. not disagreeing with you, im just saying that without the actual raw figures i wouldnt take a stand

either way, people can twist statistics to suit any purpose as i could show with my own arrest numbers...

[depakid]

36. The article notes that the entire body of numbers is hard to come by

It can be tricky to pin down exact numbers when it comes to specific prison populations from state to state, particularly given the differences between sentencing statutes across the country. And states have not traditionally kept track of how many juveniles are in their adult prisons. But when it comes to juvenile lifers, there are some figures that have been widely accepted (and not contested by the state of Florida.)

"There are 73 children 14 and younger who have been imprisoned for life without parole," Stevenson told the Court. "...For the age of 13 and younger, there are only nine kids, and that's including both kids convicted of homicide and non-homicide. For non-homicide, there are only two. They are both in Florida and Joe Sullivan is one of them."

What he did not get to say is that of the vast majority of kids who are sentenced to die in prison are black.

This is unfortunate. Racism has been central to the policies that led to the rise in life sentences for juveniles in the first place -- and not just in Florida. The Supreme Court may rely on legal precedents to make their decisions -- but that does not mean it necessarily considers history.

On a quick digression, it's also interesting that a number of Australian states no longer have double jeopardy- allowing a defendant once acquitted to be tried again. Not entirely sure how the procedure works, but I'd hazard a guess that if new evidence that's quite probative of guilt arises (DNA for instance), that defendant goes back before the court.

Having been brought up, schooled in and practiced American law, I had a hard time with that at first. Still do in some respects.

[vadawg]

37. yeah that was my issue was the fact that the raw numbers were not there

im not saying that racism dosent exist in the justice system, i know it does, i just dont like to take anyones word on something without first having a look myself, its the cynical side of me. :)

[Number23]

40. Yes and of those 73 children, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM is black

But some have convinced themselves that it's because only black people are committing the crimes.

[vadawg]

41. okay show data that shows asian or white kids aged 13,14, etc that are committing the same crimes

then look at why they were not convicted, if you cant find similar cases then maybe it is clusters due to culture or some other reason, even including racism, thats the question ive been positing since the start, i read the articles etc and there is a serious lack of numbers, info on the cases etc to be able to state what is happening...

[EFerrari]

45. Maybe you can start here.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=criminal+justice+black+disproportionate&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701

[Number23]

49. Girl, I think you're starting out too fast for that one.

I think he may need to go with the basics first:

[vadawg]

50. lol yes i guess actually wanting to see the numbers rather than the spin on the numbers is rather

too basic for you....

[depakid]

52. Another part of the article that struck me:

And these may be some esoteric points

Conspicuously absent from the oral arguments, however, was any discussion of race. The one time Stevenson attempted to mention it, as one of the "arbitrary features" of the distribution of life-without-parole sentences -- these prisoners are "disproportionately kids of color," Stevenson said -- he was interrupted by Justice Alito, who questioned the reliability of his statistics. ("What is your response to the State's argument that these statistics are not peer-reviewed?" he asked.)

The Gregg v. Georgia, et al. (the July 2, 1976 Cases- reinstating the death Penalty and far right jurists in general) don't much care for the Brandeis brief approach:

Gregg found that the death penalty did not offend “the evolving standards of decency which mark the progress of a maturing society.” The Court did so by looking at written statutes, not data on how the death penalty was actually applied <arbitrarily- with racial disparity as a major component of arbitrary application>. Today we have thirty years of experience with the death penalty that the Gregg Court lacked that allow us to make a better judgment about whether the death penalty as applied offends evolving standards of decency.

More: http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/greggvgeorgia/study_guide.pdf

Yet racial disparities have had an impact on death Penalty cases in America since- and only recently has the matter come full circle, to the point where evolving standards of decency have been the guide in knocking down the Death Penalty for juveniles.

And- hopefully, knock down draconian sentences like the ones outlined in the article(s).

Yet once again here we are- not dealing with racial and socioeconomic inequalities...

Kinda makes the head spin.

[Number23]

58. EGG-ZACTLY!!

Yet once again here we are- not dealing with racial and socioeconomic inequalities...

That passage caught my eye as well. And I'll be DOGGONED if Justice Steven's reaction -- wanting to see the numbers or "not trusting the source" of the data -- doesn't sound eerily familiar to the actions of others who try to deny the effects of racism.

Even when they are GIVEN the data, given the numbers, given the information they still want "more" because what they've seen doesn't support their preconceived notions. They will not stop "searching" until they find that one document, that one report that supports what they already feel is the truth.

[depakid]

59. Alito had the problem with the facts-Justice Stevens is our ally

He's come a long way and served all of us well and with distinction, Mr. Justice Stevens has...



Have a look: http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20091019/1astevens19_cv.art.htm

That bit aside- I understand what you're writing about.

[Number23]

60. You can be on someone's side and still have "issues"

I've got no problem with Justice Stevens. But his reaction was a typical of people who are uncomfortable talking about racism.

[depakid]

61. He's an old school guy appointed by a Republican (who in many ways was more progressive

than over half of those these days who pass themselves off as Democrats).

What Mr. Justice Stevens and his clerks have had to say for over two decades now has been a source of inspiration and well grounded legal argument for so many of us.

Might be you're reading "Stephenson" and thinking "Stevens" in the articles.

[EFerrari]

21. You seriously need to sit down with yourself and reread this post.

[G_j]

20. we all knew that

right?

you see, we learn to accept the racism of the system, while progress is made on some other fronts, others, tragically and heart breakingly, deteriorate.

it's like the freaking matrix or something, nobody wants to wake up.

It has been recognized for decades, that the scales are heavily tipped against African Americans in the courts/justice system.
What has been done?
Jack shit

[Number23]

30. Exactly. That's summed up beautifully in the conclusion of the document

that I referenced in post #8.

"While reasonable people may disagree about the causes of racial disparities in the criminal justice system, all Americans should be troubled by the extent to which incarceration has become a fixture in the life cycle of so many racial and ethnic minorities."

But as you can see by some of the responses in this thread, there are many who want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that "negroes have got it made in America" or that "they're going to jail more because they're committing more crimes" which is in DIRECT contradiction to DECADES of well-documented and well-researched analyses.

The decks are and always have been stacked against black people (and not just in the courts/justice system though your point is well made) even though sooo many try to deny that for a myriad of reasons that I'm sure make sense in their heads. But like I say all of the time, black folks know the score and I'm encouraged that there seem to be a growing number of whites who do as well.

[G_j]

35. it's the most shameful thing,

it just makes want to weep.

[Number23]

38. I know EXACTLY how you feel.

:hug:

[David Zephyr]

65. What a shock. Not.

Not fair. Not right.

Eric Holder, you must change this.

[Hippo_Tron]

66. Since most prosecutions are at the state level, there's only so much Holder can do

But I agree that he needs to address this in whatever way he can.

[David Zephyr]

69. You make a very good point, Hippo_Tron.

I hope that Holder can do something about the idiotic "three strikes you are out" law that even the SCOTUS upheld.

Someone steals a pizza, hotwires a car to joyride and has a single joint and he goes to prison for life. Meanwhile, white collar Wall Street crimnals rip us all off and are living high on the hog.

Your point about State Courts is a good one.

[Number23]

71. "Meanwhile, white collar Wall Street crimnals rip us all off and are living high on the hog."

Oh my God. PREACH!

[defendandprotect]

74. k/r