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Faryn Balyncd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:28 AM Original message |
IKE: "the Japanese were ready to surrender & it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing" |
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MannyGoldstein (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:34 AM Response to Original message |
1. Very, Very Interesting |
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Captain Hilts (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:42 AM Response to Reply #1 |
9. FDR was going to drop it and Eleanor supported it. |
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MannyGoldstein (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:22 AM Response to Reply #9 |
36. Up Until Now, I Fully Believed Those Bombs Were Necessary |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:03 AM Response to Reply #36 |
70. I am very glad to read that as I also believed that until I read the history |
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MellowDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:20 PM Response to Reply #36 |
227. That's bad logic... |
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MannyGoldstein (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:21 PM Response to Reply #227 |
228. I Think It's Reasonable to Respect The Opinion... |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:26 PM Response to Reply #227 |
233. But it is not just one expert/military leader of that time, it is many |
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MellowDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:42 PM Response to Reply #233 |
239. No, they were not defeated militarily... |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:51 PM Response to Reply #239 |
245. Well, I think you would have a very hard time convincing any serious person of that |
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FreakinDJ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:03 PM Response to Reply #245 |
272. Your Full of IT - all estimates were 20% Casualties |
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tclambert (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 06:13 AM Response to Reply #245 |
296. The big mistake was insisting on "unconditional surrender." |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 08:50 AM Response to Reply #296 |
305. Just a "few terms" like |
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tclambert (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 05:01 PM Response to Reply #305 |
326. I think Ike wanted to negotiate acceptable terms instead of |
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mopinko (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 08:04 PM Response to Reply #239 |
259. +1 |
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imdjh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 08:56 AM Response to Reply #36 |
306. You would change your mind based on something written after the fact? |
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Leopolds Ghost (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 04:17 AM Response to Reply #9 |
343. FDR also opposed bombing the death camps and told Morgenthau to shut up about it. |
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daedalus_dude (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:34 AM Response to Original message |
2. Considering how right he was on the military-industrial complex... |
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DutchLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:26 PM Response to Reply #2 |
234. Too bad the hypocrite did everything he could to support the m-i-complex... |
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Jokerman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:36 AM Response to Original message |
3. K & R |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 09:28 PM Response to Reply #3 |
334. . |
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vadawg (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:37 AM Response to Original message |
4. so i guess if general patreaus tells us that obama is wrong and we need to escalate |
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redqueen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:38 AM Response to Original message |
5. "wars cannot be won by destroying women and children" |
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tclambert (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 04:50 PM Response to Reply #5 |
325. Genghis Khan and the Romans won many wars that way. |
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Captain Hilts (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:39 AM Response to Original message |
6. But, they didn't. Not even after the first bomb. nt |
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WeDidIt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:40 AM Response to Reply #6 |
8. Anami was ADAMENT, NO Surrender |
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Captain Hilts (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:42 AM Response to Reply #8 |
11. Correctamundo. nt |
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yowzayowzayowza (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:52 AM Response to Reply #8 |
18. Still, the first one should have been dropped on... |
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AtheistCrusader (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 12:59 AM Response to Reply #18 |
278. We dropped one on a city and they didn't surrender. |
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Sherman A1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 03:11 AM Response to Reply #278 |
283. Interesting quote and glad you posted it. |
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yowzayowzayowza (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 10:55 AM Response to Reply #278 |
319. A warning leaflet tiz a far cry from an actual demonstration: |
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joeybee12 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:00 AM Response to Reply #8 |
22. Yup...but apparently America has done everything wrong... |
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wroberts189 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:44 PM Response to Reply #22 |
98. We would have as well. But rather then have the men fight... |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:59 PM Response to Reply #98 |
202. Cowards? |
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uberllama42 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 03:04 AM Response to Reply #202 |
282. You have no sympathy for anyone in Japan? |
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AtheistCrusader (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 06:13 PM Response to Reply #282 |
330. Considering the higher death toll from conventional bombing... |
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MellowDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:22 PM Response to Reply #98 |
229. The Japanese did the same to millions in China.... |
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hack89 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 08:14 PM Response to Reply #98 |
260. Cowards? After Iwo Jima and Okinawa? |
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Enthusiast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 03:58 AM Response to Reply #260 |
286. Exactly |
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AtheistCrusader (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 01:05 AM Response to Reply #98 |
279. War is an ugly thing. |
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clixtox (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 04:36 AM Response to Reply #279 |
346. But! But! You are not considering the unimaginably profitable results... |
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Enthusiast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 03:53 AM Response to Reply #98 |
285. No conduct was more barbaric |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:03 AM Response to Reply #8 |
26. And even after the second bomb there was an attempted coup to prevent the surrender.. |
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:41 AM Response to Reply #8 |
57. And an attempted coup |
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bvar22 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:08 PM Response to Reply #8 |
84. Nope. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:06 PM Response to Reply #84 |
114. You are absolutely wrong. |
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WeDidIt (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:38 PM Response to Reply #84 |
133. What part of "unconditional" do you not understand? |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:34 PM Response to Reply #84 |
154. Not true |
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bvar22 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:49 PM Response to Reply #154 |
187. OK. For you education and reading pleasure: |
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DallasNE (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:32 PM Response to Reply #187 |
268. Where Did Gen. MacArthur Stand On This |
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foo_bar (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 05:53 AM Response to Reply #187 |
349. I dunno if neo-Nazis are the most unbiased source |
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jbnow (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 08:26 AM Response to Reply #187 |
352. Thank You nt |
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Enthusiast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 04:00 AM Response to Reply #84 |
287. They made no overtures until |
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Hobarticus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 06:12 AM Response to Reply #84 |
295. Wrong, wrong, wrong. |
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RaleighNCDUer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:59 AM Response to Reply #6 |
21. The only reason they DIDN'T surrender after the first bomb was because |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:09 AM Response to Reply #21 |
28. Total BS. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:40 AM Response to Reply #28 |
55. actually, Japan did NOT surrender until their 1 condition was met |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:50 AM Response to Reply #55 |
62. More like half of one condition was met. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:55 AM Response to Reply #62 |
65. the institution of emperor had been largely ceremonial for centuries |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:00 AM Response to Reply #65 |
68. We did negotiate with them. |
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wroberts189 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:30 AM Response to Reply #21 |
46. thx nt |
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grantcart (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:25 PM Response to Reply #21 |
123. That is incorrect - even after Nagasaki there was a faction that wanted to continue |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:33 PM Response to Reply #123 |
128. and even then there was a failed coup attempt to keep the emperor in isolation and continue the war. |
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RaleighNCDUer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:06 PM Response to Reply #123 |
146. I say again, |
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slampoet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:18 PM Original message |
YOU IDIOT! It took more than 3 days to get a diplomatic message to the USA from Japan back then. |
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grantcart (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:28 PM Response to Original message |
125. If you read Prince or any other accurate history you would know that even after |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:32 PM Response to Original message |
126. You should read a book. |
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Captain Hilts (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:35 PM Response to Original message |
130. Too funny. nt |
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rhett o rick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:17 PM Response to Original message |
207. Any recommendations boss? Why are you calling people Idiots? Are you in the right blog? nm |
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jobycom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:15 PM Response to Reply #6 |
118. And they didn't after the second bomb. They surrendered when we gave in, to prevent Russia |
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mix (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:40 AM Response to Original message |
7. Thanks for posting this, k&r |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:42 AM Response to Original message |
10. 53. How many lives would have been saved IF we accepted their 1 condition earlier? |
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Captain Hilts (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:43 AM Response to Reply #10 |
12. When you start a war, you run the risk someone else will finish it. nt |
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Bonobo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:05 AM Response to Reply #12 |
27. John Wayne? |
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Captain Hilts (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:34 AM Response to Reply #27 |
50. No, veteran of many peace marches. nt |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:11 AM Response to Reply #10 |
29. The Chrysthanthemum throne remains the oldest hereditary monarchy, to this very day |
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Leopolds Ghost (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 03:31 AM Response to Reply #29 |
337. It's not TERRORISM when we do it. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:39 PM Response to Reply #10 |
93. That "one condition" myth doesn't become true by virtue of repetition. n/t |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:47 PM Response to Reply #93 |
137. How about the fact that the Chrysanthemum Throne still exists to this very day? |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:52 PM Response to Reply #137 |
139. The myth isn't that the throne still exists, but that it was their "one condition" to surrender. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:01 PM Response to Reply #139 |
143. It was their MAJOR condition and everyone knew it |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:24 PM Response to Reply #143 |
150. The only people that think it was the MAJOR condition to Japan's surrender are people that get |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:32 PM Response to Reply #150 |
153. I have lived and studied in Japan for 5 years |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:36 PM Response to Reply #153 |
156. Japan was not seeking surrender until AFTER the SECOND atomic bomb. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:42 PM Response to Reply #156 |
160. People don't understand the difference between "surrender" and "armistice" |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:51 PM Response to Reply #156 |
166. That simply doesn't agree with the historical record |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:02 PM Response to Reply #166 |
172. You continually refuse to see the difference between a negotiated armistice and a surrender |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:06 PM Response to Reply #172 |
176. I continually post facts, with links to their sources. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:26 PM Response to Reply #176 |
182. Well, I, for one, know the difference between an "armistice" and a "surrender" |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:06 PM Response to Reply #166 |
175. Exactly Japan wanted to surrender under terms that were UNACCEPTABLE to the Allies |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:13 PM Response to Reply #175 |
179. Unconditional Surrender were terms that were unheard of at that time |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:04 PM Response to Reply #179 |
189. Blah blah blah emperor. |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:08 PM Response to Reply #179 |
204. Germany surrendered Unconditionally. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:23 PM Response to Reply #204 |
230. yes, as the Nazis refused to surrender... yet, the Japanese Government did, with 1 condition |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:52 PM Response to Reply #230 |
246. The Nazis put out numerous "peace feelers" analogous to those put out by the Japanese |
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Thothmes (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 07:33 PM Response to Reply #230 |
255. Would we have accepted a German Surrender if |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 07:39 PM Response to Reply #255 |
256. Not a good analogy. |
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snagglepuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 08:07 AM Response to Reply #230 |
301. One of the unfortunate things about dropping the bombs is that this tragic |
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snagglepuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 07:54 AM Response to Reply #179 |
299. What's so precious about Japan's monarchy, non-democratic institution? |
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Leopolds Ghost (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 03:40 AM Response to Reply #156 |
338. Um, so wait, there was no process to even begin surrender talks until between bombs? |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:40 PM Response to Reply #153 |
158. Good for you, but that doesn't change the fact that you are quite misinformed |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:45 PM Response to Reply #158 |
161. So you think they were necessary. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:51 PM Response to Reply #161 |
165. You didn't answer my question, but I didn't expect you to. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:56 PM Response to Reply #165 |
170. My position is... |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:03 PM Response to Reply #170 |
173. You're dodging the question. |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:15 PM Response to Reply #170 |
205. We completely dismantled the army and navy of japan |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:41 PM Response to Reply #205 |
238. I don't think it is accurate to say we completely dismantled anything as many are still in existence |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 10:03 AM Response to Reply #238 |
315. Yes, so? |
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Thothmes (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 07:31 PM Response to Reply #153 |
254. Would you have granted Germany an opportunity to surrender |
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Enthusiast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 04:56 AM Response to Reply #153 |
289. Would it have been better |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:52 PM Response to Reply #143 |
167. Along with keeping occupied territories, no occupation of Japan, no democracy, no war crime trials.. |
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FreakinDJ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:44 AM Response to Original message |
13. Hind-sight is always 20/20 |
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Faryn Balyncd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:47 AM Response to Reply #13 |
14. Eisenhower's advise to Stimson was hindsight? |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:49 AM Response to Original message |
15. None of our military leaders in theater at that time thought it was necessary |
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daedalus_dude (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:14 AM Response to Reply #15 |
30. but the DU history experts know it better of course.... |
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eyepaddle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:27 AM Response to Reply #30 |
41. Maybe so, please see my response below. |
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Moochy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:40 AM Response to Reply #30 |
56. Revisionist Historians |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:43 PM Response to Reply #30 |
97. Than a bunch of out-of-context quotes lacking any analysis of the options available in 1945? |
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eyepaddle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:21 AM Response to Reply #15 |
34. A couple of thoughts: |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:37 AM Response to Reply #34 |
52. Please read the links provided... they show the actuall climate at the time |
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eyepaddle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:47 AM Response to Reply #52 |
59. But the military men don't say when a war is over--tht's the politicians. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:51 AM Response to Reply #59 |
63. true, but their opinions matter |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:58 AM Response to Reply #63 |
67. We only accepted a very very very water down version of their condition |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:09 AM Response to Reply #67 |
72. The institution of emperor had been cerimonial for centruries, Japan had a multi party system |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:27 AM Response to Reply #72 |
79. Well the wording of our response must have created some concern. |
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eyepaddle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:07 AM Response to Reply #63 |
71. I think they only got to keep the emperor AFTER they surrendered, at the urging of |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:10 AM Response to Reply #71 |
73. That is simply not true, do you think any general could make such a huge political decision alone? |
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eyepaddle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:17 AM Response to Reply #73 |
76. Not any General who wasn't MacArthur. Let's just say that Doug had no perception of hi limitations! |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:55 AM Response to Reply #52 |
64. Not true. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:02 AM Response to Reply #64 |
69. They were a defeated nation that wanted to negotiate peace, yet we still nuked them, TWICE |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:11 AM Response to Reply #69 |
74. Japan was insisting on 4 conditions not one. |
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Drunken Irishman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:38 PM Response to Reply #74 |
265. Hussy ain't getting it. |
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snagglepuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 08:31 AM Response to Reply #69 |
302. The terrorism on a scale never seen before is the terrorism the Japanese |
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zipplewrath (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:57 AM Response to Reply #15 |
66. You'll note the Navy connection |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:36 AM Response to Reply #66 |
83. Not just the navy, read the links please |
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zipplewrath (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:13 PM Response to Reply #83 |
85. I understand |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:40 PM Response to Reply #85 |
94. We accepted their 1 condition - and the Chrysanthemum Throne remains to this very day as testimint |
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zipplewrath (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:02 PM Response to Reply #94 |
110. We did not "accept" it |
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backwoodsbob (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:25 PM Response to Reply #94 |
232. damn how many times do you have to hear it? |
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snagglepuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 08:41 AM Response to Reply #94 |
303. Why enter into a historical discussion when you refuse to accept historical fact? |
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Captain Hilts (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:38 PM Response to Reply #66 |
132. Correct. Navy & Army didn't want to let the Army Air Corps win it. nt |
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bvar22 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:18 PM Response to Reply #15 |
87. You can add General MacArthur to those in the High Command... |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:57 PM Original message |
Deleted message |
Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:49 PM Response to Original message |
163. Quelle surprise! The man who advocated strategic high-altitude bombing as the future of all war |
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provis99 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:53 PM Response to Reply #163 |
216. your conclusions are bizarre. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:50 PM Response to Reply #216 |
244. No, the atomic bomb did not fit LeMay's doctrine of strategic bombing. |
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bvar22 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:19 PM Response to Reply #15 |
88. delete |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:42 PM Response to Reply #15 |
95. More Doug Long quote-mining in place of actual historical analysis. n/t |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:54 PM Response to Reply #95 |
104. I guess even the words of our military leaders in theater at that time do not matter to some |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:02 PM Response to Reply #104 |
112. That's not accurate. The issue is that out-of-context quote mining is a poor |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:12 PM Response to Reply #112 |
116. Deleted message |
Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:24 PM Response to Reply #116 |
122. Yet you repeatedly just post links to two websites. |
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SidDithers (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:49 PM Response to Reply #116 |
188. That's quite the source you've got there... |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:12 PM Response to Reply #188 |
190. I agree, I wish I could delete it... |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:18 PM Response to Reply #190 |
198. Perhaps you should consider reading the sources from which you cut & paste? |
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MellowDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:28 PM Response to Reply #112 |
235. + 1 nt |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:23 PM Response to Reply #104 |
209. Who Ike? |
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Captain Hilts (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:36 PM Response to Reply #15 |
131. Surprise, surprise!!! The Navy & Army didn't want the Army Air Corps to end the war in the Pacific. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:42 PM Response to Reply #131 |
134. No only that, but the Air Corps brass itself didn't exactly appreciate not getting |
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Captain Hilts (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:00 PM Response to Reply #134 |
142. And Ordnance wasn't even told about the bomb!!! |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:26 PM Response to Reply #142 |
151. Thank goodness, or they'd have dropped every single bomb they had trying to |
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Leopolds Ghost (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 03:45 AM Response to Reply #131 |
339. Surprise! You care more about inter-college rivalry than the morality of the act |
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hack89 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 08:48 AM Response to Reply #15 |
304. The Navy wanted to starve the Japanese, the Air Force wanted to fry them |
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rhett o rick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:50 AM Response to Original message |
16. The purpose of the bombs was to send the Soviet Union a powerful message. IMHO. nm |
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reflection (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:56 AM Response to Reply #16 |
20. Interesting. |
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Hugabear (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:02 AM Response to Reply #16 |
23. BING BING BING, we have a winner folks! |
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redqueen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:03 AM Response to Reply #16 |
25. Why not drop them somewhere that's not a city full of people, if the purpose is a message? |
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county worker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:32 AM Response to Reply #25 |
48. That was one of the arguments against dropping the bomb on civilians. |
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anigbrowl (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:27 PM Response to Reply #25 |
91. Destructive power of such weapons is ultimately measured in lives |
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rhett o rick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:01 PM Response to Reply #25 |
171. Good question. I believe there were actually two main reasons for dropping the bombs. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:19 AM Response to Reply #16 |
32. It was to send the WORLD a msg of TERROR - That we would use it no matter your weak postition |
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wroberts189 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:26 AM Response to Reply #16 |
40. Only message they got was "We need some of those" nt |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:59 PM Response to Reply #40 |
141. No, that's not really accurate. |
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wroberts189 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:53 PM Response to Reply #141 |
169. But they got some didn't they? And they probably stole it from us. nt |
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rhett o rick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:16 PM Response to Reply #169 |
206. Actually they got a lot of help from one of our scientists because he was afraid that us having the |
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Peace Patriot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:50 AM Response to Original message |
17. Very glad to learn this about Ike! Didn't know it. Thanks for this post. |
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bvar22 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:42 PM Response to Reply #17 |
96. In the original draft, it was "Military Industrial Congressional Complex", |
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daedalus_dude (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 09:55 AM Response to Original message |
19. but, but ..... TEH TREWPZ !!11 |
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yodermon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:03 AM Response to Original message |
24. Ike, what the fuck did *he* know? |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:51 PM Response to Reply #24 |
102. Well, for one, he was on the other side of the globe, and wasn't privy to much, if any, |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:15 AM Response to Original message |
31. Hiroshima is the 2nd most horrid word in the American lexicon |
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Echo In Light (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:26 AM Response to Reply #31 |
39. * |
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Faryn Balyncd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:21 AM Response to Original message |
33. Feaver & Gelpi showed that military leaders are more casualty averse than the general public. |
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jody (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:21 AM Response to Original message |
35. I'll accept the facts summarized in the article "The Invasion That Didn’t Happen". |
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wroberts189 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:29 AM Response to Reply #35 |
43. Heroes? I would leave that judgement to God..if you believe in one. nt |
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jody (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:34 AM Response to Reply #43 |
49. Believe as you please as will I. n/t |
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Leopolds Ghost (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 03:47 AM Response to Reply #35 |
340. Are they heroes for killing hundreds of thousands? How bout for nearly ending the world? |
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jody (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 05:53 PM Response to Reply #340 |
353. They're heroes for possibly saving my fathers life and my own if the war continued long enough. n/t |
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wroberts189 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:23 AM Response to Original message |
37. We dropped them to save American lives. Japs were not part of the equation. |
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The Traveler (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:24 AM Response to Original message |
38. Forever controversial |
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zipplewrath (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:24 AM Response to Reply #38 |
78. It's war |
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jobycom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:27 AM Response to Original message |
42. Good post. nt |
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ensho (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:29 AM Response to Original message |
44. Ike was right about a lot of things - no more nuke bombs! |
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ThomWV (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:38 AM Response to Reply #44 |
53. Then how come during his presidency our stockpile miltiplied by about 400X? |
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redqueen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:19 AM Response to Reply #53 |
77. Perhaps that's why he said what he did, when he left. (nt) |
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county worker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:29 AM Response to Original message |
45. Every year at this time we engage in this time wasting discussion. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:32 AM Response to Reply #45 |
47. I believe it very fortunate that this discussion happens at least once a year |
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county worker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:38 AM Response to Reply #47 |
54. Learning what? We all have our opinions and there is no teaching going on here IMHO. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:46 AM Response to Reply #54 |
58. I have seen many post here giving thanks for the info, and there are many who just lurk/read |
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zipplewrath (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:31 AM Response to Reply #58 |
82. The unknowns |
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county worker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:42 PM Response to Reply #58 |
159. I do not accept the idea that Japan wanted to surrender earlier. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:14 PM Response to Reply #159 |
192. here you go... Operation Super Sunrise? Japanese-United States Peace Feelers in Switzerland, 1945 |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:48 PM Response to Reply #192 |
200. Wait...you think that *supports* your position? n/t |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:10 PM Response to Reply #200 |
222. That the Japanese were interested in ending the war before we nuked them? Yes. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:46 PM Response to Reply #222 |
240. Oh, they were interested in ending the war since Pearl Harbor. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:53 PM Response to Reply #240 |
247. good day, sir |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:58 PM Response to Reply #247 |
249. Obviously, that distinction between armistice and surrender causes you a bit of trouble. |
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snagglepuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 09:01 AM Response to Reply #249 |
308. Hear. Hear. |
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bvar22 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:50 PM Response to Reply #54 |
101. Many are learning. |
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county worker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:48 PM Response to Reply #101 |
162. The younger you are the farther from reality you are. |
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bvar22 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:15 PM Response to Reply #162 |
194. I'm not that young. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:16 PM Response to Reply #162 |
196. That's why I always use quotes from the military leaders who were in theater at the time |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:19 PM Response to Reply #196 |
199. Yeah, your sources are impeccable. |
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Hobarticus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 06:18 AM Response to Reply #47 |
297. Sadly, so many are still misinformed... |
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snagglepuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 08:56 AM Response to Reply #47 |
307. Oh the irony of "some will never learn". |
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wroberts189 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:36 AM Response to Reply #45 |
51. Perhaps we need to go through this again? |
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kgnu_fan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:49 AM Response to Reply #45 |
61. When we forget our own history, we tend to repeat the same horror. |
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Posteritatis (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:03 PM Response to Reply #45 |
113. Not necessarily |
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rhett o rick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:50 PM Response to Reply #45 |
164. It's who we are. And if you think it is a waste of time, why did you respond? nm |
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Leopolds Ghost (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 03:58 AM Response to Reply #45 |
341. Anyone who thinks the death of hundreds of thousands and the near destruction of human race |
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ecstatic (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:48 AM Response to Original message |
60. It was a racist attack. End of story nt |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:48 PM Response to Reply #60 |
100. Now that is utter nonsense. |
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snailly (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:01 PM Response to Reply #60 |
271. That is absolute bullshit and you know it |
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Leopolds Ghost (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 04:18 AM Response to Reply #271 |
344. Read Beschloss, The Conquerors n/t |
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snagglepuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 09:15 AM Response to Reply #60 |
312. If racism is a concern please direct me to posts you've started to condemn |
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old mark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:12 AM Response to Original message |
75. Don't know where Ike got his information, but that's the first time I've |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:19 PM Response to Reply #75 |
89. Ike made his comments in 1963 opinions had changed after the fact. |
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bvar22 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:53 PM Response to Reply #89 |
103. Well, |
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old mark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:12 PM Response to Reply #89 |
191. Look at the history of island invasions leading up to Japan- Iwo Jima |
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Enthusiast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 05:22 AM Response to Reply #191 |
290. Nice post, old mark. |
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old mark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 05:31 AM Response to Reply #290 |
291. The father of a good friend in high school was on a troop ship, |
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Enthusiast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 05:47 AM Response to Reply #291 |
294. I remember the plot. |
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HiFructosePronSyrup (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:30 AM Response to Original message |
80. And then there was MacArthur. |
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zipplewrath (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:21 PM Response to Reply #80 |
90. Speaks to exit strategy |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:02 PM Response to Reply #90 |
111. Yeah I am sure the 100 million + Chinese and Koreans living in virtual slavery would have loved that |
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zipplewrath (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:16 PM Response to Reply #111 |
119. Not by then |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:51 PM Response to Reply #119 |
138. Look at a map. |
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zipplewrath (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:34 PM Response to Reply #138 |
185. Well, we were in China too |
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redqueen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:57 PM Response to Reply #80 |
107. Thanks for posting those. (nt) |
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Jim Sagle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 07:40 PM Response to Reply #80 |
257. No surprise there. MacArthur was anti-communist and pro-fascist. |
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Johonny (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:31 AM Response to Original message |
81. Funny cause IKE benefited from the dropping and he knew it |
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HiFructosePronSyrup (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:15 PM Response to Reply #81 |
86. MacArthur, Eisenhower, LeMay, Halsey... |
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Johonny (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:05 PM Response to Reply #86 |
221. lol |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:37 PM Response to Original message |
92. Quote-mining is not a substitute for actually knowing what was happening in 1945 |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:44 PM Response to Reply #92 |
99. It is much more than just quotes... |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:54 PM Response to Reply #99 |
105. I'm quite familiar with Doug Long's "scholarhip" on this issue, and it amounts to little more |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:15 PM Response to Reply #105 |
117. It is not just him... |
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eyepaddle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:23 PM Response to Reply #117 |
121. delete |
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eyepaddle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:27 PM Response to Reply #117 |
124. Delete |
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eyepaddle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:55 PM Response to Reply #117 |
140. Okay, I'll 86 mine as well. |
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ShamelessHussy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:08 PM Response to Reply #140 |
147. Thank You |
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indypaul (896 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:55 PM Response to Original message |
106. How about a dose of reality on this matter? |
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bertman (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:57 PM Response to Original message |
108. Never heard of this before. Thank you for posting it. |
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JPZenger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 12:59 PM Response to Original message |
109. I wish we had hit a military target ... once |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:16 PM Response to Reply #109 |
120. FDR demanded no such thing. The Potsdam declaration did (and it was limited to military). |
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JPZenger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:13 PM Response to Reply #120 |
149. You are wrong - FDR Speech at Casablanca 1943 |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:32 PM Response to Reply #149 |
152. And that vauge statement was codified by the Allies in Potsdam. |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:48 PM Response to Reply #109 |
213. I hate to tell you this |
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caraher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:09 PM Response to Original message |
115. If you're at all serious about understanding this subject... |
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kgnu_fan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:35 PM Response to Reply #115 |
129. so much to learn about our history |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:49 PM Response to Reply #115 |
214. conventional wisdom isn't always wrong. |
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caraher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:59 PM Response to Reply #214 |
220. I agree, but it must be examined |
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proteus_lives (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:32 PM Response to Original message |
127. They said it after the fact for good PR. |
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caraher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:02 PM Response to Reply #127 |
144. the key card was one that had nothing to do with the bomb |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:41 PM Response to Reply #144 |
211. Hirohito's decision to surrender 6 days later |
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Politicalboi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:42 PM Response to Original message |
135. We can all debate surrender |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 01:44 PM Response to Reply #135 |
136. "Some" are idiots. n/t |
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kiva (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:15 PM Response to Reply #135 |
193. "Japan was just unlucky for being an island" |
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Enthusiast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 05:33 AM Response to Reply #135 |
292. FDR had no prior knowledge |
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Stand and Fight (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:02 PM Response to Original message |
145. Wow.... |
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newinnm (323 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:09 PM Response to Original message |
148. The A bomb was a crime against humanity. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:35 PM Response to Reply #148 |
155. How do you think the U.S. should have ended the war? |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:19 PM Response to Reply #148 |
208. and so should the Japanese and Germans |
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Thothmes (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 07:48 PM Response to Reply #148 |
258. As should be FDR. The vast destruction |
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rug (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:40 PM Response to Original message |
157. Whether they were ready to surrender or not, they had lost their offensive capability. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 02:52 PM Response to Reply #157 |
168. So...what should we have done in August of 1945? n/t |
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rug (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:09 PM Response to Reply #168 |
177. I answered this in the other thread you're in. |
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caraher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:20 PM Response to Reply #168 |
181. We should have told them we wouldn't hang the Emperor |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:32 PM Response to Reply #181 |
184. "there's a good chance they would have simply given up" |
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caraher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:15 PM Response to Reply #184 |
195. That's a bit of a non-sequitur |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:54 PM Response to Reply #195 |
201. Asking you to support your own statement is a non sequitur? |
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caraher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:54 PM Response to Reply #201 |
217. You didn't simply ask me to support my statement |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:52 PM Response to Reply #181 |
215. "there's a good chance they would have simply given up" |
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Thothmes (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 08:22 PM Response to Reply #168 |
262. Continued to make war on the Empire of Japan until they |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:10 PM Response to Reply #157 |
178. Yeah and a lot of territory was under Japanese control territory like China where... |
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rug (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:14 PM Response to Reply #178 |
180. And Bush kept saying he liberated 50,000,000 people. |
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shadowknows69 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:03 PM Response to Original message |
174. I'm with Ike. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:31 PM Response to Reply #174 |
183. So instead of using the bombs, we should have ended the war using "conventional" means. |
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shadowknows69 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:17 PM Response to Reply #183 |
197. What did I just say? I agree with Ike. Therein lies your answer. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 04:59 PM Response to Reply #197 |
203. Well, Ike thought we should have won the war using "conventional" methods. |
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shadowknows69 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:39 PM Response to Reply #203 |
210. I'm typing this so I'm pretty sure I don't stutter in text. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:57 PM Response to Reply #210 |
219. Nope, you didn't stutter. |
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shadowknows69 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:14 PM Response to Reply #219 |
223. Four billion? |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:47 PM Response to Reply #223 |
241. If you think being unpleasant is somehow necesary, I'd ask you to reconsider. |
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shadowknows69 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 07:18 PM Response to Reply #241 |
252. You're right that was unecessary of me. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 07:30 PM Response to Reply #252 |
253. No worries. |
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snagglepuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 10:27 AM Response to Reply #253 |
317. Au contaire. Your posts have been quite the model of clarity and light, |
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Arkana (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 03:35 PM Response to Original message |
186. The decision to drop the bomb is probably one of the most contested in American history. |
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tabasco (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:48 PM Response to Original message |
212. I guess we should have just continued the conventional firebombing campaign. |
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Confusious (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 05:54 PM Response to Reply #212 |
218. My grandfather was. |
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proteus_lives (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:16 PM Response to Reply #212 |
225. That's right |
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caraher (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:15 PM Response to Original message |
224. I appreciate the arguments pro-bombing |
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MellowDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:17 PM Response to Original message |
226. Who cares? |
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DutchLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:24 PM Response to Original message |
231. If some nation did it today, we would call it a war crime, even genocide... |
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MellowDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:34 PM Response to Reply #231 |
236. Are you joking? |
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DutchLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:37 PM Response to Reply #236 |
237. Then let's have them all prosecuted! I'm not against that. |
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MellowDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:48 PM Response to Reply #237 |
242. No, it's very directly related... |
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DutchLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:49 PM Response to Reply #242 |
243. And your just a war crimes apologist who wants to rationalize it all away. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:57 PM Response to Reply #243 |
248. How do you think the U.S. should have ended the war with Japan? |
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DutchLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 06:59 PM Response to Reply #248 |
250. I'm not getting into this subject-changing non-discussion again. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 07:01 PM Response to Reply #250 |
251. Because it demonstrates that, as horrible an option as the bombs were, |
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DutchLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 05:58 PM Response to Reply #251 |
329. The 'what if'-scenario is simply not relevant to this discussion. |
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Raskolnik (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 06:41 PM Response to Reply #329 |
333. Nonsense. If you don't examine an act in its context, you cannot intelligently examine it. |
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DutchLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Aug-08-09 05:59 PM Response to Reply #333 |
336. The alternative, or the context, is not an excuse for a war crime. |
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Enthusiast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 05:40 AM Response to Reply #237 |
293. The estimate is |
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Parche (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 08:20 PM Response to Original message |
261. If One American was saved, then it was worth it |
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ControlledDemolition (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 08:51 PM Response to Reply #261 |
264. So why then subsequently start bogus war upon bogus war? n/t |
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Parche (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 05:57 PM Response to Reply #264 |
328. that was NOT a bogus war |
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ControlledDemolition (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 10:52 PM Response to Reply #328 |
335. When you look at who financed Hitler in the first place... |
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Kaleva (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 08:26 PM Response to Original message |
263. Fire bombing civilians was more humane & civilized |
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frogcycle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:01 PM Response to Original message |
266. It had little to do with Japan |
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italian_progressive (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 04:27 AM Response to Reply #266 |
288. Absolutely so. |
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DainBramaged (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:21 PM Response to Original message |
267. And what about the firebombing of Germany and Japan in the closing months of WWII? |
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Faryn Balyncd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:03 PM Response to Reply #267 |
273. Ike might have come to agree with you: |
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BrklynLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:33 PM Response to Original message |
269. It would never have been dropped on a "Caucasian/European" country.. |
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snagglepuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 09:47 AM Response to Reply #269 |
313. Plans were in the works to drop it on Germany and Americans certainly |
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Grinchie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 10:46 PM Response to Original message |
270. I remember seeing a documentary on World War II regarding this sordid episode |
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ChimpersMcSmirkers (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:05 PM Response to Original message |
274. Not so sure. We dropped one bomb on them and waited three days for them to surrender. |
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thread-bear (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-06-09 11:16 PM Response to Original message |
275. A biography of Ike I read agrees with S.H. |
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ingac70 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 12:07 AM Response to Original message |
276. Ugh. |
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Libertas1776 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 12:19 AM Response to Original message |
277. I have always |
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snagglepuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 09:59 AM Response to Reply #277 |
314. Well said. Excellent post. Your comment that an important factor to consider |
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Rex (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 01:07 AM Response to Original message |
280. We just wanted to see what the effect would be on a city full of civilian targets. |
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johan helge (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 02:40 AM Response to Original message |
281. The War Department's own study: The atomic bombs were unnecessary |
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Hobarticus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 06:21 AM Response to Reply #281 |
298. Written in 1946....hindsight RAWKS!!! |
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Enthusiast (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 03:44 AM Response to Original message |
284. There was resistance within |
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bread_and_roses (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 08:05 AM Response to Original message |
300. These bombs were a war crime, plain and simple, just as we are committing war crimes today in |
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Pavulon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 09:03 AM Response to Reply #300 |
310. War sucks, total war is worse.. |
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bread_and_roses (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 11:34 AM Response to Reply #310 |
320. "lives saved" is speculation, and the issue is deliberate slaughter of non-combatants |
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Leopolds Ghost (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 04:07 AM Response to Reply #310 |
342. I am sick of all these "war sucks, war is evil, get over it" people. Fallacy of irrelevant premise |
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snagglepuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 10:12 AM Response to Reply #300 |
316. My issue is not the real tragedy of civilians lives lost but the fact that the bombings |
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annm4peace (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 09:02 AM Response to Original message |
309. thank you for this |
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jeff30997 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 09:04 AM Response to Original message |
311. K&R |
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caseymoz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 10:37 AM Response to Original message |
318. I'm surprised this is even still being discussed in this way. |
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Festivito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 01:53 PM Response to Original message |
321. Wow, a Republican implying a Democrat as wrong. Where have I heard that before??? |
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Faryn Balyncd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 02:11 PM Response to Reply #321 |
322. When Eisenhower met with Sec. of War Stimson in Germany in 1945, he was not a Republican...... |
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Festivito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 04:49 PM Response to Reply #322 |
324. In 1963, 11 days before JFK dies, likable Ike was a Republican. |
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Faryn Balyncd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 05:11 PM Response to Reply #324 |
327. Do you think he would be one today? |
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Festivito (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 08:03 AM Response to Reply #327 |
351. It wouldn't be talked about. |
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LongTomH (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 02:24 PM Response to Original message |
323. This issue will be debated for centuries! |
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ddeclue (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 06:15 PM Response to Original message |
331. MacArthur was running the Pacific War and "Ike" really wasn't in the loop.. |
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citizen snips (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-07-09 06:24 PM Response to Original message |
332. this topic is rehashed too much what also needs to be talked about is japanese war crimes |
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Leopolds Ghost (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 04:23 AM Response to Reply #332 |
345. The topic is whether people continue to actually endorse war crimes committed by us as necessary |
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thelordofhell (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 04:42 AM Response to Original message |
347. Firebombing killed more Japanese than the Atomic Bombs |
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tomm2thumbs (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 05:05 AM Response to Original message |
348. K&R |
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DemocratSinceBirth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 06:24 AM Response to Original message |
350. It Was A Sad Chapter In World History But HST Didn't Have The Benefit Of Hindsight |
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kgnu_fan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Aug-09-09 06:09 PM Response to Original message |
354. sad nt |
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