CA Ballot Initiatives: Any talk of removing or reforming this process?

[supernova]

CA folks, I was just wondering, in light of the Prop 8 debacle, if there's any talk at all in California about reforming or restricting this process. Any at all?

I get that it's supposed to be that CA citizens can more directly influence their government. Clearly it's working in reverse in this example. I'm sure there are other initiatives that have gone over rather badly over the years too, but I'm not that familiar with CA politics over the years. What was the one about not raising property taxes back in the 70s? Prop 17? Hasn't that practically starved the UCal campuses?

I guess I'm asking about how you feel about the whole ballot initiative thing. Whether it's worth keeping or not.

[WeDidIt]

1. GOOD GOD, Give the poor people a chance to REPEAL PROP H8 FIRST!

JESUS H. CHRIST!!!!!

Damnit, let them use the same system to repeal this heinous law first, THEN REFORM IT!

[supernova]

2. I want them to repeal it

by whatever governing levers are available.

I am also asking a larger question that perhaps at the moment might be unanswerable. It wouldn't the first time, I've done that.

[EFerrari]

3. Did you read the whole OP before you started cussing at the poster?

[WeDidIt]

6. Yes. n/t

[Toasterlad]

4. Oh, You Better BELIEVE They'll Be Talk About Reforming the Process.

That's all you're going to hear from the fundies over the next year or so. Now that they've got what they want, they'd be THRILLED to see a change in the system, requiring a supermajority to revise the constitution.

[WeDidIt]

5. I'm absolutely certain the H8ers are already making plans

to get a supermajority requirment for constitutional amendments on the ballot in 2010.

They'll probably file it any day now so as to supercede any attempt to overtrun Prop H8.

[krabigirl]

7. Yeah, it was great for Prop 215...horrible for Prop H8.

[Xithras]

8. The ballot initiative idea is worth doing, but our process is badly broken.

People from across the political spectrum have pointed out for years that it could be easily fixed by upping the number of signatures needed to put something on the ballot. Currently, the requirement for an amendment is that you gather signatures from a number equal to 8% of the people who voted in the last governors election. It's a silly way to factor the numbers, and leads to situations where a low election turnout one year can lead to a glut of low margin propositions flooding the ballot box for several years following it.

The idea has been brought up many times to increase the requirement to be at least 10% of the actual number of registered voters in the state. Instead of the few hundred thousand signatures needed now, they would need about two million. That would ensure that only items with broad public support hit the ballot.

Couple that with another idea to ban paid signature gatherers, and the process would clean up overnight. Sadly, nobody really seems interested in pursuing these.

[supernova]

15. Thank you for the thoughtful response

It was more like what I was looking for and I appreciate it.

Agreed that is a low threshold for signatures on petitions.

Looking at it from a distance, the current system seems designed to get wedge issues on the ballot and make them seem like there's more support for them than is actually the case. Sort of, if you don't have much support, use a really big bullhorn to make it seem like you do.

The reforms you listed sound more practical, but practical isn't sexy and doesn't sell. :-(

I hope in the future, that will change.

[Johonny]

9. They should remove the initiative process and invalidate

every prop passed by it.

[Xithras]

13. Every prop?

Most of the propositions passed in California are for very liberal causes. Things like school funding, high speed rail systems, parkland and wildlife improvements, stem cell research, mental health care for the poor, and on, and on. For every Prop H8 that passes, three or four good programs that most DU'ers would support are passed as well. Laws banning the discharge of carcinogens into drinking water, laws creating offices to regulate insurance companies, ans sunshine laws requiring the state government to hold hearings in public have all come out of the initiative process.

Repealing every proposition wouldn't be something I, or most Californians, would support.

[Johonny]

16. yes every prop

I simple don't believe in the 3/1 ratio you quote. Anyways I dislike the props that force spending earmarked to certain projects, even projects I like. It destroys the legislatures ability to be flexible and is certainly part of what's hurting the California budget process. If a law is worth having it's worth being passed by our representatives. That's what they are there for. Democrats hold a vast majority in the legislature there is no reason for me to believe I would not be well represented. I lived in states without this horrid prop system and they seem much better managed.

[LSdemocrat]

10. Hell, California might just be better off to call a new constitutional convention and start anew

[Mythsaje]

11. How about making use of it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5721834&mesg_id=5721834

[Freddie Stubbs]

12. They 'reformed' the process here in Florida

It used to take a simple majority of voters to approve a state constitutional amendment. In 2006 voters approved an amendment requiring that any future amendments receive a 60% super-majority.

[mmonk]

14. The problem one runs into with direct democracy or democracy

by ballot is the concept of tyranny of the majority.

[cally]

17. The initiative process is a disaster

Initiatives are passed to address one or two problems or issues. As a result, the state government has very little ability to control expenditures and taxes since a large percentage of the budget is already allocated by initiative. In addition, all sides play with the timing of issues on the ballot. Controversial issues are put on the ballot when supporters are most likely to turn out. Big money has too much influence on the process. Many, would like to change the initiative process. Unfortunately, voters still overwhelmingly support the initiative process.

I think we have a good chance of overturning Prop. 8 in the Legislature or through the initiative process. The proposition will be put on the ballot and then an all out push to get supporters to the polls will determine it's fate. If you want to help, volunteer for precinct walking and phone banking or fundraising. It will be a fight.

[Oeditpus Rex]

18. It's a fucking mess and needs to be changed

I said so earlier today:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=133301&mesg_id=133397

[Evan Ravitz]

19. Best reforms for ballot initiatives

Solutions to ballot initiative problems have been generally agreed on and available for many decades. But legislators NEVER improve the process, only try to make it harder -last year with AZ Prop. 105 and CO Ref. O, both wisely defeated by voters.

Voters on ballot initiatives need what legislators get: public hearings, expert testimony, amendments, reports, etc. The best project for such deliberative process is the National Initiative for Democracy, led by former Sen. Mike Gravel: http://Vote.org. Also http://healthydemocracyoregon.org/ and http://cirwa.org

In Switzerland (and Michigan and Florida), petitions can be published or left at stores for people to read and sign at leisure, so there are less aggressive petitioners, more informed signers, and less $ required. The Swiss vote on initiatives 3-7 times a year so there's never too many on one ballot. Because they have real power (including national initiatives), the Swiss read more newspapers/capita than anyone else.

In Switzerland, representatives are humbler and more representative after centuries of local and cantonal (state) ballot initiatives, and national initiatives since 1891. They call their system "co-determination." This works for all relationships!