What is acceptable punishment for student misbehavior?

[mia]

It's my belief, as a teacher in the public schools, that classroom misbehavior is the #1 problem that leads to reduced time for teaching. Students who misbehave take away the rights of other students who come to school to learn.

"Humiliating" punishments that "single out" students could result in a lawsuit.

Recently two 5th grade students in the area where I work were not allowed to attend a class field trip unless their parents went along as chaperones. The parents of these boys, who have a history of chronic misbehavior, have never come to "Child Study" meetings to discuss ways to help their children and they declined to help chaperone on the class trip. Now they are coming to school claiming that their children have been "singled out".

Is there such a thing as punishment that is not in some way humiliating? Can anyone think of appropriate discipline for students who are disruptive in class?



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5707150


Edit for spelling.

[billyoc]

1. Suspension. Make it expensive for the parents.

[donco6]

13. So, here's the problems with that:

Suspension interrupts the educational process. Too many of those, and the school can be accused of not providing FAPE (free appropriate public education - a term found in almost all state constitutions). So that can lead to lawsuits or Office of Civil Rights complaints. These are very, very expensive - even if you win, which is most of the time.

Then there's the reality of the situation. It may become expensive for normal, non-crackhead parents. But for the other kind, it makes no difference at all. "Hey, aren't you supposed to be in school?" "Nah, got kicked out." "Oh, well don't eat the potato chips - I need 'em for later."

[cherokeeprogressive]

26. In CA, that hurts the school as well.

The schools are funded by a formula based on Average Daily Attendance.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

2. As a person

who grew up the son of a teacher, I'd say the parents need to be responsible for the behavior of the child. That is, what the child is taught at home is easily what the child does in school.
There is the possibility, though, the children come from a chaotic, crazy environment and are acting out to call attention to that fact.
Or we could reinstitute paddling! :)

[tj2001]

3. Or a metal ruler

nun optional

[madmom]

4. The parents and the students single themselves out by their actions. This is

what I would emphasis to the parents. They are the ones making the situation that is, not the teacher, by correcting it.If they don't want their children "singled out" make sure they behave appropriately.

[mia]

9. Couldn't have said it better.

Thank you.

[Catshrink]

5. That's why we have to document, document, document.

Document the kids' misbehavior and attempts to deal with it, document the parents' failure to show for meetings. If this is in place, I don't see why the parents have an argument. I wouldn't look at this as humiliation but rather as a consequence and the misbehavior and relief for the other kids who are probably pleased as heck they don't have to deal with them ruining their trip.

I once had a couple of kids who refused to be quiet for anything and both had faced multiple suspensions for their behavior. One of them even had a special ankle bracelet from the Sheriff. When it came time for finals, I told their parents that the other students in the class had the right to take their final exams in quiet and since their children had not demonstrated the ability to respect the rights of others, I had two options for them: 1) they could be present during the final exam to monitor their child's behavior or 2) their child could take their exam in the afternoon after the other children had finished. One chose option 2, the other never responded so I had him take his exam in the principal's office. Thankfully, I had the documentation to back this decision up and the admins supported me.

[mia]

14. I've been through a few of those documentations.

They were a waste of time in the school where I used to work. They always resulted in the teacher being instruted to "deal with it" in so many words. I had one 5 year old student who would throw chairs and other materials around the room. I documented for over a year. He was in my room for 2 years. It wasn't until he bit me that his parents agreed to get him help.

[donco6]

15. What do you think of in-room video?

I have mixed feelings about it. It takes care of the document, document, document. We have them in all our buses, for example, and it just shuts down all that "Johnny is an angel and would do . . . JOHNNY, WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO?"

But then you know it's recording everything you do and say, which is icky.

I dunno. Maybe if I were in control of its use, it would be OK.

[meow2u3]

6. In school suspension: isolate the kid in the principal's office

The misbehaving kid should be isolated--that is, kept by him or herself--for a certain number of days, in a room in the principal's office suite. The kid will have to do his or her schoolwork in that small room with no contact with anyone except for the principal, or the school nurse if the kid gets sick.

[donco6]

16. If you think the principal spends all day in the office -

I can assure you that's not the case.

But I have seen schools set up "in-school" suspension rooms. They have to be manned by a teacher, and some schools can't make that work without raising class size.

[mitchum]

35. My school has ISS...

there are on the average 30 kids in there daily. And some kids are chronic attendees in the room.

[donco6]

38. And that's a different problem.

There should be no "chronic" ISS. There is usually a process for habitually disruptive students - even for special ed. students. It just doesn't get followed to the end.

[mitchum]

40. I agree with every word of your post

[TheMightyFavog]

31. My highs school took it a little further.

If you got caught sleeping during an in-school suspension, you had to make up the time you slept the next day.

[napi21]

7. I have no idea how to make it happen, but parents MUST assume

responsibility for the actions of their children!

Granted I'm old now, but I remember the days when the PARENTS punished their children not only for what they did wrong, but for MAKING THEM LOOK BAD!

[mia]

10. We must be from the same era.

Back in the late 80's, my son chose to be paddled rather than have the middle school principal call me. He showed me his signature on a school form years later.

[napi21]

49. I understand that! I worked full time and my mother(who lived next door)

would watch my 2 boys after school until I got home. She would tell me all the time, when either of the boys did something wrong nd she reprimanded them, the first thing they would say is "DON'T tell my mother!" I never smacked their little butts once they got beyond diaper stage, but I was tough. They knew what I expected from them and they would be punished for wrong doing. I don't know where this "don't hurt the kids feeling" or "punishment makes them feel bad" began or where it came from, but I think it's BS! Those kids are going to enter the workplace at some point, and believe me, there's no boss I've ever met who will worry about that kind of stuff.

A parent's job is to raise their children to be responsible members of society, and the more you can teach them about the real world, the better off they'll be.

[mamaleah]

39. I hear you

I think my mother had 'What would the neighbors think" on a loop.

Of course we are talking about a time when kids and adults were both concerned about public behavior.

[Happyhippychick]

8. I think that what you did was perfect. The parents may object but that's not the point.

I would have done exactly the same thing. I hope the students were not permitted to go on the trip, were they?

[mia]

18. No.

They weren't my students, but one of the teachers asked if his student could stay in my room during the trip. I agreed to have him come in as "a helper". I teach a younger group. Both boys didn't come to school that day. I was relieved although I had already prepared for his arrival by rewriting my lesson plans for the day. No activities that required me to turn my back on him for more than a few seconds.

[Happyhippychick]

21. I think you all did a great job and the outcome worked out well - the point was for the other kids

to enjoy their field trip and for those two kids to not be a behavioral problem for the teachers on that day.

Of course the parents are annoyed about it - if they were realistic about their children's behavior then their kids wouldn't be so badly behaved. And I guarantee you that the parents are treating the children with as little respect as the children are treating the teachers.

Sad all around.

[elleng]

11. Don't think about 'lawsuits,'

but rather behave reasonably; this is for both teachers and administrators.

Handicapping school systems by second-guessing what might happen in courts is a HORRIBLE way to cripple our education system, and it appears to be one of our major problems today. Teachers and administrators must use their JUDGMENT and DISCRETION in dealing with classroom matters. They weren't born yesterday, and didn't get their jobs by walking in off the street.

[donco6]

19. While it's true some go too far -

Ignoring case law is not a good idea. But in general, if a teacher acts "prudently" and "reasonably", they should be OK.

[elleng]

23. Teachers and principals are not lawyers,

and should not attempt to interpret 'case law,' for many reasons, the first being relevance and applicability.

Reasonable and Prudent will get us all far.

[donco6]

29. Lawyers are not really smarter than the regular person.

Where did that concept come from anyway? To think a teacher cannot understand case law is kind of silly. I get newsletters with the latest cases and they're pretty simple to grasp.

[elleng]

32. I was not suggesting 'smarter.' Did you think I was?

There's more to understanding the law than reading newsletters with latest cases, as there's more to teaching reading than knowing how to spell.

[donco6]

34. I understand it.

And it's not that hard to communicate.

[immoderate]

12. Call the parents at 6 AM. Keep on doing it until the behavior improves.

And as Catshrink points out, keep copious notes. Let the kid see you write everything down.

--imm

[donco6]

17. There's absolutely no problem with what you did.

And some parents will always use the "you're picking on my kid" story. I don't see anything wrong with it at all.

[hayu_lol]

22. We used to have a 'reform school' for the L.A. City Schools...

Any disruptive action on the part of the student, and his/her classmates saw the kid no more. One could honestly say that there were no disruptive students in any classroom.

A persistantly disruptive student should be suspended for the day. Parents should be called and told to come pick their child up at the principal's office. Should the parents not respond, let the police pick up one or both parents and take them to the school to get their child. This routine should be used whenever necessary.

Have often thought that disruptive students should be required by law to be in class sitting next to their child. A few episodes with mom and dad sitting in a classroom and for most kids...that would be the end of it. Mom and Dad are not going to like missing work because junior is out of line. If this fails to improve the situation, then start the parents treks to the school to pick up their wayward offspring.

Parents who will not comply with the call to pick up their child should be remanded to the police and courts for a wake up call.

Disruptive behavior in class cheats the other students of teaching time and the teacher of maintaining order in the classroom so that learning can take place.

A few changes in local law might restore order to our schools and even reduce class size.

[donco6]

27. OK, so here's the problem with that -

"A persistantly disruptive student should be suspended for the day. Parents should be called and told to come pick their child up at the principal's office."

OK, and when the parent says, "I can't come pick him up, I have to work and I have no car." Then you suggest:


"Should the parents not respond, let the police pick up one or both parents and take them to the school to get their child. This routine should be used whenever necessary."

There's currently no way for me to make the police my "errand boy", and they won't appreciate it one bit. Maybe if there were money to add a LOT more police officers assigned to this task and it might work.

[eilen]

46. We have one of those schools in almost every large district

The one in my district is Zogg. They call them "alternative" schools rather than reform schools. The kids who have consistent behavior problems are sent there. The ones in the local city are Beard and Carnegie.

new process for troubled students

[upi402]

20. Seems we've gotten too soft

It didn't work. Time to find a middle way now. Look to Asia, I say.

[donco6]

28. Canings? Yeah, sure. n/t

[Cleita]

24. When I went to parochial school, the nuns had some very creative ways

of addressing misbehavior. Maybe the schools should consult with them. One of the punishments was to force the whole class to write their multiplication tables a hundred times. It made you learn them. Also, the miscreant that caused the whole class to be punished was taken care of in the playground or after school.

[donco6]

30. Uh . . . sure. Yeah. Thuggery - that's something to encourage.

But you're kidding, right?

[Cleita]

41. No I'm not. I'm recounting what happened.

Maybe it's not a good solution, but neither is a classroom with a bunch of disruptive thugs in it. My point was that there are creative solutions and the nuns had figured out many of them, unfortunately, some of them involved child battering. One of the more creative ones was to force the disruptors to kneel on concrete for several hours in the hot sun reciting their rosary. Another thing is that no matter how mean a nun got the parents were always behind her. Sister was always right and you must have been doing something bad to provoke her. I think herein lies the crux of the problem is the teachers getting the parents behind them or out of the way.

[mitchum]

42. When I was a sub, I also used that "Lord of the Flies" approach

playground tribunals can be quite effective.

However, as a teacher, I don't use that tactic.

[Cleita]

45. LOL! I never thought of it as the "Lord of the Flies" approach.

Actually, it was one of the kinder methods. Also, there was the carrot approach, which I forget to mention, where well behaved and studious students got some kind of award at the end of the month, like special privileges. I guess you could call it the "gold star" approach.

[Cetacea]

25. Make teacher read Alice Miller, send student to France for a week.

[mitchum]

33. Medication

[Deja Q]

36. Why not ask for a show of hands; who's come voluntarily in your class? In a class of 30,

30 hands will be raised.

How will you separate true bullies from those they attack, sometimes in ways that makes the victims appear to be the perps? (there's nothing sicker than that...)

[mamaleah]

37. Do these parents not think they have helped to single their own children out?

Parents of two boys with behavior problems who have never come to any school meetings and then are mad at the school for not....do their job for them?

Now I know I am old. I lived in fear of the call to my parents from the school. It actually meant you were about to be knee deep in shit when you got home. Apparently, it's not an issue anymore.

What punishment is available to the school except to exclude these two children from an outing? Or does that somehow damage their self-esteem? Should they not be punished at all? Would that make their parents happier?

[depakid]

43. The chaperone deal sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[gkhouston]

51. My husband and I did that with our daughter back when she was in preschool

because she had trouble understanding the "you will stay with the group" concept. She wasn't being defiant, it was more of an "Oh! Check that out!" problem, but it was a problem, and I didn't think it was unreasonable for us to chaperone constantly.

[Odin2005]

44. I'm all for treating misbehaving asshole students harshly.

Then again I have PTSD from being viciously bullied because of my Asperger's Syndrome and I'd be perfectly glad to return the favor to the fuckwits!

[Greyhound]

47. I think the problem is in the frame and our "factory school" model.

Punishment for misbehavior simply enforces obedience and ignores the cause.

What is the purpose of school?

[mia]

50. "What is the purpose of school?"

I my view school is the place where students gain the skills they will need in order to have freedom and opportunity in their future lives as adults. I feel obligated to help students gain the social skills they will need to be successful in the classroom now and to hold a job later. They need the attitude to keep on learning because it is likely that the job that they train for won't be around for as long as they are able to work.

Many students misbehave because they are academically behind. Reasons that they are behind can come from things like genetic predispositions or poor maternal nutrition to current health and social problems. Child Study teams were designed to address these problems, but if parents refuse to attend these meetings, what are teachers and their schools expected to do?

[Greyhound]

52. I think you have described the problem, not that you or I can do anything about it.

School should be about learning to learn and to think. The getting of knowledge and the ways in which to apply that knowledge. Your profession been reduced to that of vocational instructor/babysitter who's primary duty is to churn out obedient cogs.

As for the question of punishment, it seems to me the disruptive students are better served being removed from the classroom where there is nothing happening that holds their interest and put where the subjects are of interest. We've seen that punishment is ineffective at best, detrimental at worst, so we need an alternative.

The parents are themselves products of this seriously flawed system and probably beyond help at this point.

[Kingofalldems]

48. Lots of JUG