Bin Laden dead before October 2004 - Fox News & New York Times

[autorank]

If Bin Laden was dead before the October 2004 bin Laden "pre election special" then all Hell
will break loose. This needs to be addressed and nailed down. Quote a story. The "Existentialist
Cowboy" is onto something.
********

From "The Existentialist Cowboy"

Thursday, January 03, 2008

Fox News/New York Times: "Bin Laden is Dead"

The Bush administration, it seems, has kept Bin Laden alive for about seven years now, despite reports by the Fox news network that the alleged terrorist mastermind has been dead for years. On December 26, 2001, the Fox network reported that Osama bin Laden died of "serious lung complications" in mid-December of that year. If so, it means that Benazir Bhutto was correct to say that bin Laden is dead but it does not mean that she misspoke when she said that bin Laden had been murdered. The original Fox report is as follows:

Fox News: "Bin Laden Already Dead"

Wednesday, December 26, 2001

Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader.

"The Coalition troops are engaged in a mad search operation but they would never be able to fulfill their cherished goal of getting Usama alive or dead," the source said.

Bin Laden, according to the source, was suffering from a serious lung complication and succumbed to the disease in mid-December, in the vicinity of the Tora Bora mountains. The source claimed that bin Laden was laid to rest honorably in his last abode and his grave was made as per his Wahabi belief.

SNIP

On October 29, 2004, two days before the US elections, the Arab television network al-Jazeera sprung an October Surprise by broadcasting a videotape of a healthy looking bin Laden addressing the people of the United States in which he took responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks. He also condemned the Bush government's response to the attacks, and presented the attacks as part of a campaign of revenge and deterrence begun after personally seeing the destruction of the Lebanese Civil War in 1982. See 2004 Osama bin Laden video. President Bush opened up a six-point lead over John Kerry in the first opinion poll to include sampling taken after the videotape was broadcast. (21) Walter Cronkite found the video very convenient for the Bush administration, and said of it “I'm a little inclined to think that Karl Rove, the political manager at the White House, who is a very clever man, he probably set up bin Laden to this thing.” (22) (22) See - Colin Bett

Not only Fox, but the New York Times also reported the death of Bin Laden.

New York Times. July 11, 2002

Osama bin Laden is dead. The news first came from sources in Afghanistan and Pakistan almost six months ago: the fugitive died in December and was buried in the mountains of southeast Afghanistan. Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, echoed the information. The remnants of Osama's gang, however, have mostly stayed silent, either to keep Osama's ghost alive or because they have no means of communication.

See the whole post at the link above

[niyad]

1. nah, he's sunninig himself on the bin laden family property next to the pig farm

[RufusTFirefly]

16. Hey, Kenny Boy. Howzabout another pina colada? n/t

[babylonsister]

2. I'd love to see all hell break loose over this, but

I can't believe it would. Unless there's a body and pix somewhere, with a toe tag and a wh address.

[GuvWurld]

3. K&R - but fix the broken link (eom)

This is where you are trying to get people to go:

http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2008/01/fox-newsnew-york-times-bin-laden-is.html

[HCE SuiGeneris]

4. Straight out of 1984

Deceive and deny... credo of the GOP.

K & R

[mod mom]

5. wow! from your NYT link:

The Death of bin Ladenism

By AMIR TAHERI
Published: July 11, 2002

Osama bin Laden is dead. The news first came from sources in Afghanistan and Pakistan almost six months ago: the fugitive died in December and was buried in the mountains of southeast Afghanistan. Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, echoed the information. The remnants of Osama's gang, however, have mostly stayed silent, either to keep Osama's ghost alive or because they have no means of communication.

With an ego the size of Mount Everest, Osama bin Laden would not have, could not have, remained silent for so long if he were still alive. He always liked to take credit even for things he had nothing to do with. Would he remain silent for nine months and not trumpet his own survival?

Even if he is still in the world, bin Ladenism has left for good. Mr. bin Laden was the public face of a brand of politics that committed suicide in New York and Washington on Sept. 11, 2001, killing thousands of innocent people in the process.

-snip

CERTAINLY EXPLAINS WHY THE SPECIAL FORCES @ TORA BORA WERE CALLED OFF.

[autorank]

36. No b.s. in that prose!

:hi:

[Kurovski]

6. K&R. (nt)

[Lint Head]

7. I think Bin Laden will retire to the same remote island that

JFK, MLK, RFK and Elvis escaped to. He will never be heard from again. :dem:

[mod mom]

9. those men died but it's Kenny-boy Lay (who died during a holiday weekend,

w/ autopsy, was cremated and his family was not forced to pay the investors he bilked) who is suspicious imho.

[RufusTFirefly]

17. Yup.

Overlooked your post before posting mine.

[Me.]

8. I Dream

This comes out and comes out big

[autorank]

11. seemslikeadream but it may just be real.

The "Existentialist Cowboy" is a former MSM guy with a lot of experience. I wrote him and said, please get this done. We'll see. I find it totally believable. Fake tapes, that would be the end of it all.

[seemslikeadream]

31. .......

[fascisthunter]

10. Heads Will Roll When This Becomes Mainstream

and the media may have nothing to do with it.

[stubtoe]

13. If you mean that the media will not be able to stop it from becoming mainstream, indeed!

Ever since Bhutto spoke of Bin Laden being dead, it's starting to come into public awareness. Finally.

Let the heads roll where they may.

[fascisthunter]

15. That's What I Mean...

Talking to folks who aren't even aware of web sites like this, I can tell they know much more than DC would like them to know.

[Blarch]

21. Bhutto said...

Laden was killed, this story says he died naturally.

They contradict each other.

[CGowen]

39. even the BBC did it

http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2007/12/bbc-censored-benazir-bhuttos-reports.html

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Now they'll have to rely on the Chavez as bogeyman to keep funding "defense".

[Flarney]

14. Totally. I hear he signed an arms deal with Russia. Fire up the nukes!!!

Edit: ...and do not buy Citgo gas!

(sike!)

[onenote]

18. talk about your old news

Bin laden has been "reported" dead any number of times. None of the reports have been substantiated. I don't see any reason to think that the Pakistan Observer report is more special, or accurate, than any of the others.

For a partial listing of Bin Laden "death" announcements:

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=54997

[autorank]

27. Thanks for the link. The "Cowboy" is blogging about the Oct. 2004 tape & the election

The dead zone speculation or truth or untruth has been around for a good while, as you point out.

The specific issue is the pre election 2004 tape. If he's dead then the date and knowledge in the
corridors of power is an extremely potent concern.

A dead Osama, known to be dead by the government, suddenly appearing as if alive just before the
election is simple evidence of election fraud and supports all the other evidence presented. The
presumption of guilt would be shifted.

They still have not shown that they won the election.

[DCKit]

19. I saw a fairly recent "Bin Laden" video where he looked twenty years younger...

And far healthier than he did in 2001 - when he was actually still making his own tapes. I believe the last one that came out was badly dubbed, the video was all still shots and nothing that was said had any relevance to current affairs. I haven't paid attention to any of their propaganda since.

You would think the CIA, NSA or whoever makes these bullshit tapes would have some production standards, but I guess that's asking too much for the pittance they make off those drug and arms deals.

[Pastiche423]

20. It tickles me that so many people

believed the OBL tapes. This includes both the skinny Osama and the fat one.

[onenote]

23. it also tickles me that so many people believe the Pakistan Observer

or any of the other media sources that have printed their own reports of Bin Laden's death at various times and by various causes.

I don't know if he's dead or alive, but I'm not about to accept any of these reports as the verified truth when they are in fact unverified.

[Pastiche423]

25. Then don't

Believe *co. They never lie! And while you're at it, believe all of the OBL video tapes after December 2001 are REAL!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[onenote]

30. okay, which one of the reports that bin laden died is correct and why

do you think so.

BTW, reading comprehension doesn't seem to be a strong suit for you. Where did I say I believed what the administration had said or that I believed the tapes. What part of "I don't know" if bin Laden is alive or dead was too complex for you to understand.

And again, if you think he's dead, rather than thinking you don't know, which one of the versions of how he died has you convinced and why?

[autorank]

33. Which one is incorrect?

[onenote]

34. as far as I know, all of them. Back at ya. Which one is correct.

And the answer "as far as I know all of them" isn't a possible answer for you (but it is for me).

[autorank]

40. Easier? Where there's a question you investigagte

You seem to have faith in the official story. Did you read the Chronkite quote in the OP? He knows
more than either of us. He was explicit. That's a remarkable statement.

If you think this is NOT worth investigating, that's fine. But it's also short sighted and misses
the point - these guys/gals in power are the most corrupt crew ever in this country, simply because
of the scale. To accept this, be a doubter of those who simply question based on evidence (e.g., the
Swiss labs judgment about the tape referenced above) is to miss an opportunity to demand real public
discourse.

[onenote]

47. you keep making up things and attributing them to me

I have never referenced the official story, let alone said I have faith in it. If you want to make up crap, do it somewhere else.

I have said, simply, that I don't know if he's dead or alive, that there have been several different reports from different sources reporting Bin Laden's demise at different times from different causes and that none of them have been verified.

I've never said any or all these stories shouldn't be investigated. In fact, my entire point was that its amazing that some folks accept any of these stories as true without any verification. If you are now saying that you don't accept any one of them as true, but think they need to be investigated, then we're in agreement.

[autorank]

48. For the record, no I don.t but we agree based on your last sentence.

Here's the one to investigate - the tape referenced in the BBC article referenced above that the Swiss lab said with 95% confidence was not bin Laden. Why that was not investigated boggles the mind. The lab is well respected.

[autorank]

28. In a truly free country committed to the truth, we'd make it a priority to find out.

I don't know if he's dead. And there are people out there who are expert at evaluating the evidence.
I'm not one of them. However, I know this. If this administration and government, the elected
officials, were serious about knowing about the Iraq War, 911, and the entire thrust of our policy,
they would demand and support a hard hitting investigation now or whenever the first question arose.

The BBC ran a story about one of the tapes being fake and there was also mention that the Swiss
lab that made the assertion was asked to stop testing the tapes. I'll get the links and post them
in a bit. That's pretty serious.

Truth is the goal here, a profound truth, and the way you reach that goal is through serious science
and forensics. That should be accomplished because it must be accomplished.

[autorank]

29. More on 2001 & 2004 tapes; authenticity and motivation questions.

British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC)

Could bin Laden Video be Fake Friday, 14 December, 2001, 15:28 GMT

Osama Bin Laden, or someone who looks a lot like him, talks on camera about his prior knowledge of the 11 September attacks on the World Trade Center.

But while Washington's allies have been quick to judge the tape as evidence of Bin Laden's guilt, many in the Arab world doubt its authenticity.

There have been:

# Claims that the Bin Laden figure is a look-alike
# Suspicions that Bin Laden's voice has been dubbed over the original soundtrack
# Allegations that Bin Laden was not discussing the WTC attacks, but an assault on US military targets some years ago

****************

bin Laden Tape "Not Genuine" Friday, 29 November, 2002, 05:40 GMT

Rudimentary film editing - overlaying a new soundtrack, changing the order of the film - is open to anyone with a camcorder or some basic PC software.

Researchers in Switzerland have questioned the authenticity of the recent audio recording attributed to Osama Bin Laden.

A team from the Lausanne-based Dalle Molle Institute for Perceptual Artificial Intelligence, Idiap, said it was 95% certain the tape does not feature the voice of the al-Qaeda leader. US intelligence officials have said they believe the recording - broadcast on the Arabic al-Jazeera television channel earlier this month - was almost certainly that of Osama Bin Laden.

If verified, it would provide the first evidence in a year that Bin Laden survived the American-led bombing campaign in Afghanistan

****************

The Guardian – Compliete list of tapes - October 29 2004 Tape
http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/page/0,,839823,00.html

Just days before the US presidential election, a videotape of Bin Laden surfaces, with the al-Qaida leader admitting responsibility for the first time for the September 11 attacks, and threatening new strikes against America. "Despite entering the fourth year after September 11, Bush is still deceiving you and hiding the truth from you, and therefore the reasons are still there to repeat what happened," he says. He also suggests that the idea for the September 11 attacks stretched as far back as the Israeli aerial bombardment of tall buildings in Beirut in 1982. 'It did not cross our minds to attack the towers'

****************


Media Matters on the Oct. 2004 bin Laden Tape, Oct. 29, 2006

But the article did not mention, as Media Matters for America has noted, that according to investigative reporter Ron Suskind's book, The One Percent Doctrine: Deep Inside America's Pursuit of Its Enemies Since 9/11 (Simon & Schuster, June 2006), CIA analysts agreed that "bin Laden's message was clearly designed to assist the President's reelection" (pp. 335-336). Suskind's reporting undermined claims by Bush administration officials -- including Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and then-national security adviser Condoleezza Rice -- that terrorists might take actions to ensure Kerry would defeat Bush, and declarations from conservative media figures that the 2004 bin Laden videotape in particular demonstrated that bin Laden preferred Kerry.

[stubtoe]

46. the Media Matters article -- "assist the President's reelection"

Does this mean that Al Qaida = Bush Administration?

Al Qaida wanted to remain "relevant" in US political process? This sounds like a machiavellian plot more and more.

[mhatrw]

26. Yep. Here's an equivalently believable video tape in which Bush confesses all!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCIDyTOFm84

[autorank]

35. Brilliant! lol

[Garbo 2004]

22. 2003: Iraq has WMD! - Fox News & New York Times. n/t

[wildbilln864]

24. kick & R!! n/t

[kineneb]

32. if, as some reported, Osama was on dialysis, he is long dead

Without consistant medical care and regular dialysis, anyone with renal failure would not fare well (they have a very shortened life) . I doubt that once on the run, he would be able to find a convenient electrical outlet and clean sources of water in a cave at Tora Bora. (wish I had a visual) He probably has died of "natural causes": lack of access to a dialysis machine. Dialysis is usually done three days per week, and no matter which version of treatment is used, it requires sanitary conditions, lots of tubing, electricity, and water to properly clean the wastes from the body.

I know far too much about dialysis- Hubby has been on it since Oct. 2005.

[autorank]

38. Nothing like a reality check and medical science.

That's the type of thinking I'd like a truly independent panel to do, some serious investigating too.

There were reports of this. I don't know if there true. But that can be verified by people who know
how to do that.

Excellent point. Trapezing around the mountains is hardly conducive to a treatment regime.

Best to you and hubby.

[noise]

37. This is a big deal

but the skepticism goes beyond his possible death. IMO, his true operational capability was exaggerated for propaganda value. Intentions + CAPABILITY = true nature of the threat. The disparity in capability between Bin Laden/al Qaeda and the CIA alone is enormous. Then factor in the US military, high tech resources and other state intelligence agencies.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

41. Mike Malloy and Tom Hartmann talked about this.

Malloy and Hartmann both mentioned the Nov. 2, 2007 Benazir Bhutto interview with Sir David Frost on the English language channel of Al Jazeera. She said three men in Pakistan wanted to kill her, and said one of them "murdered Osama Bin Laden".

They also mentioned that Bin Laden's death was reported Dec. 26, 2001.

[eridani]

42. Possible, but I'm not willing to blow off the opinion of Robert Fisk--

--one of the few westerners who have interviewed bin Laden. Fisk thinks he's alive. That doesn't mean that the videos can't be fakes, however.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=358&topic_id=3185

[autorank]

43. That's a great research thread. What a resource!

I take Fiske very seriously. My comment at the top started out with "If" so I'm open. I'll find
Fiske's comments and see when he spoke to bin Laden last. From my own vantage point, I'm most
interested about Oct. 2004. That's the fulcrum if he was dead prior to that date. If not, there are
still problems but not of the magnitude, other than a demonstration that the tape was fake, whether bin
Laden was alive or dead.

On Edit: Here's what I found. "Osama bin Laden, 9/11, and the war in Afghanistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Fisk

Fisk is one of the few Western journalists to have interviewed Osama bin Laden - three times (all published by The Independent: December 6, 1993 July 10, 1996, and March 22, 1997)."

This is interesting. If he thinks that ObL is still alive and you can point me there, I'd appreciate
it.

[eridani]

44. I think that I have a link to a Photobucket pdf of a letter I got from Fiske

I had written an extensive review of voicemorephing for him and also said that there were a number of bin Laden translaters who were of the opinion that bin Laden was dead. It should be at one of the URLs in the research section--I don't think I've moved it around on Photobucket.

[autorank]

49. THANKS!

I'll find it or PM you. I'm impressed!!!:)

[AzDar]

45. K & R...

[wildbilln864]

50. kick! n/t