8 Critical Reasons for a Vegetarian Diet

[pathansen]

1. ENVIRONMENTAL REASONS

A recent U.N. report indicates that raising livestock is a major contributor to GLOBAL WARMING, worse than car emissions. And, according to www.GoVeg.com:

ENERGY - Raising animals for food requires more than one-third of all raw materials and fossil fuels used in the United States. Producing a single hamburger patty uses enough fossil fuel to drive a small car 20 miles and enough water for 17 showers.
POLLUTION - The meat industry causes more water pollution in the United States than any other industry because the animals raised for food produces 130 times more excrement than the entire human population.
LAND - Of all agricultural land in the United States, 87 percent is used to raise animals for food. On an acre of land, 20,000 pounds of potatoes can be grown, but only 165 pounds of beef can be produced in the same space.
WATER - Raising animals for food consumes more than half of all the water used in the United States. It takes 2,500 gallons of water to produce a pound of meat, but only 25 gallons to produce a pound of wheat.
DEFORESTATION - Rain forests are being destroyed at a rate of 125,000 square miles per year to create space to raise animals for food. For every quarter-pound fast food burger made of rain-forest beef, 55 square feet of land are consumed.

2. HEALTH REASONS – In addition to the threat of the bird flu, mad cow disease, E.Coli, salmonella, and other diseases, eating animal products is closely linked with both heart disease and cancer. Meat/eggs/dairy products are loaded with unhealthy saturated fat and cholesterol with no fiber. Animals have immense fear right before they die so the adrenaline hormones end up inside our bodies causing us to become more fearful. Animals are frequently given additional hormones in order for them to grow faster. Meat rots quickly so it is high in additives, preservatives, red dye; Animals are overloaded with antibiotics & steroids just to keep them alive on these factory farms (so that when we need antibiotics, they no longer work as effectively). See also Greatest Page, lastest world research study report on eating processed meat being strongly linked to cancer.

3. ETHICAL REASONS - Pigs, cows, and chickens are individuals with feelings—they can feel love, affection, loneliness, pain, sadness and fear, just as dogs, cats, and people do. An estimated 9 billion are slaughtered every year in the U.S. Undercover investigations have revealed that a large percentage of them live lives of unspeakable suffering under terrifying conditions in today's factory farms where profits frequently take precedence over compassion. These animals’ miserable lives finally end at the slaughter houses where they are often killed while still conscious. There have been reports of heads cut off, being scalded/burned alive and other horrors. What have these innocent, defenseless creatures ever done to deserve this kind of treatment? See www.meetyourmeat.com.

4. LESS EXPENSE – It’s much cheaper to grow fruits and vegetables than to raise animals. And if the demand for vegetarian food was greater, the cost would go down even further.

5. A CARNIVOROUS DIET IS UNNATURAL - Human beings are the only primates that eat meat. Our teeth are not canine. Our digestive systems do not support digesting meat since carnivorous animals have much shorter digestive tracts.

6. IMPURE FOOD – If we were not in the habit of eating animals or ever stopped to consider what we were actually eating (dead corpse, blood and gore along with their waste products), it probably would not be that appetizing. And we have no idea (and may not want to know) what part of the animal is in hamburger, hot dogs, brats. On today’s factory farms, animal are often forced to live in their own feces. See MODERN MEAT video.

7. WASTEFUL - With meat being at the top of the food chain and world population skyrocketing, only a vegetarian diet makes sense. According to various sources, if the food that is given these billions of animals every day would instead be given to all the starving people, this would end world hunger.

8. THE SOY ALTERNATIVE – Soy is a complete protein that is high in calcium and, unlike animal protein, it contains fiber and has no cholesterol. Try soy milk, soy burgers, mock duck, corn dogs and several other delicious soy products that are now on the market

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[Avalux]

3. Why?

My one reason for not eating meat is much simpler. I don't like the practice of breeding and raising animals for the sole purpose of slaughter because humans like the way meat tastes. Organic or not.

Does that offend you also?

[DB1]

9. I do not raise animals for slaughter..

But as a natural course an old animal that is near it's natural end can be used for food. All my chickens die of old age, but a cow left to age past 15 years is not a good thing to do. Should I let her suffer and bury her when she is dead? Or should I let the food bank have her as ground beef? You think it is pleasant making these types of decisions? Should we have no more cows on earth? You Decide.

[jgraz]

150. All animals die eventually

What's wrong with giving an animal a healthy, happy life and then -- before it gets old, infirm or eaten by a predator -- killing it quickly for food?

[G_j]

501. just what I said to Grandpa

Gramps, we're gonna eat you while you're still healthy.
He didn't seem to appreciate it though.
:shrug:

[jgraz]

506. Well, you really gotta get'em before they get too old and stringy

I'd say 35, 40 max. And then you gotta stew 'em for a god while.

Whoops, I see you're from NC, so maybe your grandpa IS within that age range. :P

[hiaasenrocks]

460. I actually like your reasoning.

And it means more meat for me. Animals, when prepared properly, taste great. I realize there's not an endless supply of them (theoretically) so the more people not eating them, the more there is for those of us who do.

I also eat plants.

[Sparkly]

6. Wow.

What are your disagreements with the points of the post?

I live with a meat-eater but personally, I have never liked the taste and texture of meat -- couldn't stand it as a kid and just stopped trying to eat it as a teenager. And I'm perfectly healthy.

[Locrian]

8. meat, eggs, cheese....

"Meat/eggs/dairy products are loaded with unhealthy saturated fat and cholesterol with no fiber."

Sorry - that's wrong. The hormones, antibody problems etc are correct, that's why organic is good.

The whole FAT issue is criminal and misleading. Carbs / sugar are what causes obesity. But there is no arguing with this FAT is bad meme. A high fat, animal diet is MORE healthy. Sorry.

We have been eating meat (the WHOLE ANIMIAL, including brains, bone, etc) for millions of years. Agriculture is recent - a blink of the eye phenomenon. We have not adapted to that grain diet.

The big issue that nobody will EVER address is that we have bred ourselves to the point of extinction. ALL the "bad farming practices" and related issues stem from that one ignored fact.

[DB1]

12. I agree but the real problem is

that our diet is made up of pasteurised /homogonized/ comalmagated ( new word) CRAP

[superduperfarleft]

14. So because you have a financial interest in something

We should take your word for it?

I wonder if we can get some insurance industry execs to post here about why single-payer makes baby jesus cry or something. Or we can get someone who makes Hummers to post about why driving a Hummer keeps amurica strong.

Because nothing says ethical justification like a paycheck.

[DB1]

24. You maam/ sir need a clue,

I do not farm for profit, I farm to eat.

[superduperfarleft]

27. Which doesn't even come close to addressing

the ethical and environmental issues raised in the OP. Your reasons for farming animals is completely irrelevant.

[DB1]

34. Why thank you being irrellevant makes me feel like true Ried Dem.

[Lorien]

61. Those types of insults are not well tolerated around here

a little more civility, please.

[yewberry]

121. Actually, they are. nt

[crikkett]

71. Hooray for Organic Farmers!

:applause:

And meat does taste really good when it's raised well.

[jgraz]

146. Cool! What/where do you produce?

[DB1]

292. Eggs Veggies Milk for Family and friends

[HereSince1628]

2. Sorry, but you're wrong on number 5.

Humans are not the only primates to eat meat. We aren't even the only primates to go on organized hunts to get meat.

[HereSince1628]

10. Here is a reference to a scholarly book on the topic of hunting in apes

The Hunting Apes:
Meat Eating and the Origins of Human Behavior
Craig B. Stanford
Published by Princeton University Press and copyrighted, © 1999, by Princeton University Press.

[defendandprotect]

53. And apes cooked their kill?

Of course not --- any animals who kills for food eats it IMMEDIATELY and RAW ---

when humans are doing that, you may have an argument ---

They also do their own killing ---
and don't produce industries to do it for them, hidden behind walls where people can't see
what's happening!

[dysfunctional press]

75. they would if they could.

you might like to know that we have evolved past apes, and now have the ability to prepare our food to taste as we like it.

[defendandprotect]

236. "Evolving" involves developing an animal-slaughter industry? Which, btw, harms nature?

Think not . . . !!!

Denial is not a signing of evolving in any positive way ---

[dysfunctional press]

268. LOTS of things that humans do "harms nature"- shouldn't we then stop ALL of them?

and yes, developing a system of raising livestock for slaughter to feed our society is one part of our evolution.

btw- as a species, by nature we are "hunter-gatherers" when it comes to providing for our diets. bread, for example, is NOT a natural part of our diet. meat is.

[defendandprotect]

362. Well, how about we begin with the things that are making us SICK and

kill animal species on the planet --- and creating Global Warming ---
first things first, so to say . . . !

Again --- creating the violence of an animal-eating industry is not evolution --- it's greed.

GRAIN is a natural part of our diets --- and the breads that we see so often now are often
mostly lacking in nutriitional grains. The breads are filled with sugars, coloring, glutens --
all kind of non-nutritional fillers.

When we have come this close to destroying our own species --- and our fellow animals ---
and the planet --- I would saying that this is because we have behaved in UNNATURAL ways.
We are part of nature and nature is not suicidal. We are.

What other "harmful" things that human do did you have in mind---???

[cyborg_jim]

396. You don't understand how nature works

Again --- creating the violence of an animal-eating industry is not evolution --- it's greed.

Nature is cruel and greedy.

GRAIN is a natural part of our diets

What is a natural part of the diet of a being naturally able to scavenge is dependant on what there is to scavenge.

But do make up some nonsense about what is "natural" anyway.

When we have come this close to destroying our own species --- and our fellow animals ---
and the planet --- I would saying that this is because we have behaved in UNNATURAL ways.

We behaved in perfectly natural ways.

You just don't have the first clue what nature really is.

We are part of nature and nature is not suicidal. We are.

Nature is neither suicidal nor non-suicidal. It simply is.

It does not care about being greedy, or generous, kind or nasty - these are simply consequences of the many strategies that the evolution of energy processing machines has developed in order that the next generation of energy processing machines may be more widespread.

Apparently you're labouring under some sort of Disney inspired view of what nature is.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

415. Grain is far less natural than meat

1) Its been far more selectively bred
2) Its far less natural to run and take down an animal than it is to irrigate and build storage for the off season

[Silent3]

427. It's the vegetables themselves that destroyed the environment

If you go back in time 2.4 billion years, the living world consisted mostly of anaerobic organisms. An unruly bunch of photosynthetic organisms suddenly came along, spewing poisonous gas into the atmosphere -- a very corrosive substance called "oxygen". Of course, a new ecosystem developed in time that thrived on an oxygen-rich atmosphere, but for most life back then all of that oxygen was a global environmental catastrophe.

We are part of nature and nature is not suicidal. We are.

My point isn't that global warming is a good thing -- far from it -- but at least our brains give us a chance of catching on to the damage we're causing and stopping it. Radically changing the environment, and killing off a lot of other species in the process, however, is not a uniquely human thing.

Nature simply is. It has no moral compass, it has no goals, it has no values. The sun counts as a part of nature, doesn't it? It's going to grow hotter and hotter over the next hundreds of millions of years, first baking the planet to death, and then melting the surface, perhaps even vaporizing the entire planet.

That's nature.

[dysfunctional press]

446. building houses harms nature- perhaps we should return to caves?

building roads and driving cars harms nature- i guess we should walk or bike it, huh?

building dams harms nature, building bridges harms nature- it allows species to cross rivers that were a natural barrier.

pesticides and fertilizers harm nature.

and on and on...

oh, and btw- MEAT is a more natural part of the human diet than grain. look it up.

[taught_me_patience]

551. How are we destroying our species?

People are living longer and healthier than ever before. :shrug:

Advances in diet and exercise mean that people are living healthy and active lives well into their 70's, something that was not common even 30 years ago.

[Union Label]

258. They also don't farm their vegetables

So whats your point?

[Dorian Gray]

153. I eat sushi a lot...

raw and delicious!

[LaurenG]

188. Your post made me think of this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T54dk64JH4o&feature=related

No offense intended.

[Dorian Gray]

238. Of course no offense was intended....

comparing someone who eats sushi to Smeagal.

LOL....

[LaurenG]

387. No the words he sang and the way you said you liked fish

I thought it was funny. I'm sorry it was at your expense. :shrug:

[Dorian Gray]

430. Please...

no worries. My feelings were NOT hurt. :)

[LaurenG]

393. I tried to add this but my time was expired

I am a huge LOTR fan and I found the portrayal of Smeagol mostly endearing. I really thought it was funny but my husband suggested not everyone sees things the way I do. So I am sorry that you were offended and that I didn't just explain it in my first post, instead of assuming everyone understands my take on things...

[Dorian Gray]

429. Oh, don't worry...

I'm not really offended.

And I loved the character of Smeagol, too. But, when talking about loving sushi then seeing a video of him smacking fish then eating it, I don't think it's the most endearing portrayal of being a sushi eater.

But, it doesn't really offend me, so no worries. :)

[LaurenG]

432. LOL

Well, I see your point. Smacking the fish was not the thought behind it, just the song.

[Dorian Gray]

458. Cheers....

It's all good! :)

[NickB79]

154. When they evolve the intelligence to master fire, I'm sure they will

(Assuming we don't wipe them out before then). Our ancestors were using fire well over 1 million years ago, because it gives them a distinct evolutionary advantage: cooked meat is largely disease and parasite free.

"They also do their own killing ---
and don't produce industries to do it for them, hidden behind walls where people can't see
what's happening!"

And when some DU'ers point out that they hunt and do actually do their own killing, or slaughter their own livestock, people jump on them for that as well. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.

[defendandprotect]

237. Yes, uncooked animals have disease and parasites --- !!

So, if we're against hidden animal violence then we have to be for violence out in the open?

How many people are themselves killing and processing the animals they eat every week?

10 or 12?

And, frankly, how many of them could even watch a video of what happens in slaughter houses?

Any guesses?

[dysfunctional press]

447. and the animals that eat them have immune systems to deal with that...

just like humans used to.

[defendandprotect]

504. The fact that we now suffer so many diseases indicates that our humane systems

have been damaged ---

And, the illnesses directly associated with animal/dairy eating also indicate that.

When doctors do surgery on heart patients what they are removing from the arteries is
LONG WHITE CORDS OF ANIMAL FAT.

The rampant obesity in America also makes clear that what we are eating is making us ill.

Not to mention the cancers, diabetes, cataracts, etal ---

Hypertension is now being detected in the youngest of citizens!

[dysfunctional press]

516. they haven't been damaged- they've evolved.

the cause of the rampant obesity- the part of the diet that's making us ill is NOT meat- it's hfcs- high fructose corn syrup- a PLANT product.

[defendandprotect]

518. So, damage is evolution, eh . . . ?

up is down --
war is peace --

Nature isn't suicidal --- therefore damage is not evolution.

No one is saying that brown sugar water --- Coke --- isn't also making citizens obese.
And giving them cavities!

However, many of our sugars are processed using animal products ---

QUOTE:
When doctors do surgery on heart patients what they are removing from the arteries is
LONG WHITE CORDS OF ANIMAL FAT.

The rampant obesity in America also makes clear that what we are eating is making us ill.

Not to mention the cancers, diabetes, cataracts, etal ---

Hypertension is now being detected in the youngest UNQUOTE


AND, just to enlarge on that, we now have people as young as 26 and younger suffering
from hypertension.

[dysfunctional press]

520. you're the one referring to it as damage, not i.

and yes, hfcs is much worse for the human metabolism than meat.

hfcs- a plant product, is NOT a natural part of our diet- meat is.

btw- meat has been around a lot longer than hfcs and the sedentary life that younger americans have grown accustomed to- most school districts don't even require gym class any more. the current trend toward obesity has a lot more to do with those kinds of factors than with meat consumption.

get a clue.

also btw- if you ate more protein, your brain might function a little better. :hi:

[defendandprotect]

536. You don't consider disease "damage" . . .? Obesity isn't "damage" . . . ?

Let us know when surgeons are removing hfcs from heart arteries . . .

Like salt, sugar --- artificial surgars which do not come directly from fruits -- are damaging.

"Meat" as you call it --- animal-eating as we call it --- has been around since the Garden of Eden dust-up over the alleged apple. More likely the horror in the Garden of Eden had to do with animal killing and animal-eating --- probably begun as animal sacrifice.

The human body has no need for animal/dairy products --- and, therefore, stores them ON YOUR BODY.
That's what you are seeing in obesity.

Of course, the insult always sells the argument . . . LOL

Meanwhile, at some point when animal-protein becomes intolerable for your system, it will break down even bone in order to flush calcium thru the blood stream to rid itself of animal-protein.

[dysfunctional press]

537. meat eating has been aroumd as long as there have been humans...

the trend towards obesity is a more recent phenomenon.

so, it must be something else causing it-

at this point, see my previous post. :hi:

[defendandprotect]

538. And. . . you were there --- !!!

No -- the difference is that animals used to be herbivores --- and that contrary to all sense and foreknowledge, decades ago they began to feed animal other ANIMALS --- even road kill.

And rather than humans now eating an animal which existed in the sunshine and ate vegetation,
you are now eating an animal which eats garbage.

PLUS, the hormones, medications and other medical chemicals they are fed.

These growth hormones act on the animal to increase their size and weight quickly ---
and are transferred to humans when eaten.

Same for dairy ---

[mainer]

557. obesity is caused by excess carbs, not meat eating

all my vegetarian friends quickly gained weight when they stopped eating meat. It's amazing to me that the sveltest people I know are big carnivores. And the vegetarians are all FAT.

[defendandprotect]

517. That should be IMMUNE systems, of course ---

[Dr. Strange]

159. Apes don't use computers either...should we not be posting here?

Oh wait, my mistake: apparently they do use computers:

[HereSince1628]

199. Well, I didn't comment on cooking at all. I think that is a f*&cking non sequitur

with respect to my comment on point number 5 of the OP.

As a PHD Zoologist I could find a LOT of things wrong with the OP's post and many of the things posted in this thread. # 5 of the OP's post struck me as the most obvious and, given the availability of contrary information, the most egregious mistake put forward.

SMDYFA

[pathansen]

131. Yes, I was mistaken when I claimed that no other primate eats meat

I just did a search on the internet and apparently there are some chimps that eat meat.
However, a vegetarian diet is still better for fighting global warming, the environment, our health, less expensive, less cruelty, less wasteful, and so on.

[jgraz]

142. Most intelligent animals are opportunistic carnivores

Scientists are learning that many high brain/bodymass animals eat meat when it's available. For example, parrots were once thought to be strict vegetarians, but they've been seen eating meat in the wild. Now most birdkeepers offer their parrots occasional bits of meat.

[pathansen]

201. Cows, horses, pigs, deer do not eat meat

You have a right to eat whatever you want but I don't think anyone would eat animals if they could actually see and feel their suffering.

[NorthernSpy]

209. pigs will eat anything...

They're like us in that regard.

[jgraz]

229. And of that group, which is the most intelligent?

A large brain needs food rich in fat and calories in order to develop properly. It's likely our ancestors would not have been able to evolve intelligence without meat consumption.

[defendandprotect]

276. The native Americans used to call us the "pig people" because we are pink . . . etc.

Think about it ---

Many religious cultures have prohibitions against eating pigs ---

and/or including the milk of the cow with "meat" from the cow ---

These at the least show certain sensistivies which have existed in important ways,
suggesting a spiritual connection which might bar animal eating.

[defendandprotect]

277. Well . . . "anything" which they might naturally get ahold of in nature ; but only

in captivity do they get the things we consider garbage ---

In fact, Ben & Jerry's are feeding pigs residues from ice cream making --- I think they're still
doing that. Where might pigs get that naturally?

[Richard Steele]

312. Elk have been documented deliberately stomping and eating mice and similar small animals.

Also, white-tailed deer have been filmed eating baby birds:
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/news/press/ontape.htm

[HereSince1628]

202. Humans, Gorillas, Chimps and Orangs are known to eat meat

that makes the great apes (us and our close relatives) meat eaters and last time I looked, ALL THE GREAT APES ARE PRIMATES!

Baboons, though not great apes, also eat meat, but they ARE primates.

Just FACE IT: Point 5 is refuted.

The sort of CRAPPY street knowledge BULLSHIT that you posted is a disservice to the progressive left. It stimulates arguments that make us all look idiotic.

Being progressive IS NOT ABOUT BEING DRIVEN BY IDEOLOGICAL STUPIDITY. Being progressive IS about taking the gift of the Enlightenment and using it to serve mankind.


Before you post similar bullshit you should get your freaky act in order.

[Snarkturian Clone]

245. I was going to type what you said.

:applause: :yourock: :woohoo:

[screembloodymurder]

4. Don't forget buckwheat groats.

Highest % proteins of any grain and they're delicious.

[Sparkly]

5. Is the book "Diet for a Small Planet" still around?

From the 60s or 70s... It discussed many of the points you raise here.

[Sal Minella]

41. by Frances Moore Lappé -- right?

Can't remember where I left the car keys, but I can remember her name from Back Then.

[Lorien]

72. There's also Jane Goodall's book "Harvest for hope; a guide for mindful

eating"

"World-renowned scientist and conservationist Jane Goodall earned her fame by studying chimpanzee feeding habits. But in Harvest for Hope, she scrutinizes human eating behaviors, and the colossal food industries that force-feed some cultures' self-destructive habits for mass consumption. It's an unsustainable lifestyle that Goodall argues must change immediately, beginning--not ironically--at a grassroots level.

Looping personal anecdotes from 40 years of global travels with stories from noble farmer Davids and corporate Goliaths, Goodall methodically builds her case for shopping organic and living modestly. Mustering a tender gumption, she details the vicious cycle of pesticide-ridden and genetically engineered crops which feed the unknowing majority of consumers; and also feed the antibiotic-treated animals that provide these folks with inexpensive entrees. Leaving nasty slaughterhouse scenes to less tactful pens, Goodall focuses more on the product of "factory farming" techniques: mountains of waste, nutritionally depleted soil, polluted water, displaced organic farmers, and severely compromised food.

Hope springs from positive sources: Edible Schoolyard programs in the U.K. and U.S., parents breaking their schools' "unholy alliance" with fast food chains and soft drink companies, a steady rise in organic purchases. Goodall offers many suggestions for rallying others, exercising one's own consumer powers, and just plain eating less meat. Conservationists might say this information is nothing new, which might explain why Goodall provides only tertiary references to her many statistics and facts. But for those who prefer that their own eating habits be stirred--not shaken--into question, the kindly Chimpanzee Lady provides the gentle touch required". --Liane Thomas


http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Hope-Guide-Mindful-Eating/dp/0446533629

[Cassandra]

7. Preparing fields for vegetable farming kills...

thousands of small animals; moles, voles, rats and mice. Don't they count?

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Save the moles!!

And you forgot rabbits! What do you have against rabbits??

:rofl:

[Cassandra]

39. Do rabbits glean the fields?

The farmer who wrote about this in the LATimes a few years ago didn't mention rabbits. Maybe they can leap over the machinery.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. They are all in my backyard

:)

[flying rabbit]

122. we have adapted to your puny human machines

[yewberry]

47. Here's why I've never understood that argument:

Let's break it down and, for the sake of simplicity, use rounded, unlikely numbers.

Say it takes an acre of land to produce a pound of magic beans, and prepping & harvesting that acre kills a hundred small animals. It further takes ten pounds of magic beans to produce a pound of magic meat.

One pound of magic beans=100 dead small animals.
One pound of magic meat=1000 dead small animals + one dead large one.

Given the context of trying to do less harm, does this argument make sense to you? I just don't get it.

[Cassandra]

48. I was responding to #3 in the OP...

which suggested that only meat eating killed animals.

[yewberry]

116. A distinction needn't be drawn.

If the larger meaning is, "Look at all the suffering; how can I make some kind of positive impact?" someone who is veg*n for philosophical reasons might find 100 deaths morally preferable to 1001.

[piedmont]

314. 3 words: grass fed beef

no need for the magic beans.

[yewberry]

325. The whole world?

Given the McDonald's culture we live in?

Doubtful.

[Madam Mossfern]

234. Preparing fields for corn feed

does the same thing. I don't know if anyone addressed this further down the thread.

[defendandprotect]

279. Well. . . the particular way we are "preparing fields" ---

We rip up everything ---
there are other ideas about farming ---

[Champion Jack]

11. What a load of bullshit

Try getting some of your facts straight before you post this rubbish

[garybeck]

479. almost everything in the OP is true

if you are going to claim the post is "bullshit", maybe point out one or two things that are incorrect. Otherwise you look quite silly.

[superduperfarleft]

13. Oh this should be good.

Looks like the fundie carnivores are already getting defensive. :eyes:

[China_cat]

17. Humans are omnivores.

And yeah, I get sick and tired of the idea that people who eat meat eat nothing but meat, wouldn't know a vegetable if it bit us and have no idea of where our food comes from.

I grew up on a farm. You want to know how many pieces of bunny and ground nesting birds are actually mixed in with that grain you're so fond of? Spend some time riding a combine and find out.

[superduperfarleft]

19. I rest my case. n/t

[China_cat]

28. See, that's exactly what I mean.

You're willing to try to control what others eat on certain grounds but back up against the wall and deny that your solutions might just be causing the same or more problems.

I'm serious. Go find a farm and sign on for harvesting season and ride a combine. You'll last a day at the most. Especially if you end up as one of the crew who have to unclog the tines and screens of fur, feathers, blood and brains.

[superduperfarleft]

31. I'm not trying to control anything.

Anytime a discussion (emphasis on the word discussion) comes up, the meat-eaters react like you're preparing an elite team of Strike Force Vegans to come forcibly steal their hotdogs. The defensiveness is what I find ridiculous. My pointing out the damage caused by an omnivorous diet is no different than pointing out that shopping at Wal-Mart is harmful, or driving an SUV is harmful.

No vegan can possibly claim that their diet causes zero harm. What it attempts to do is to cause LESS harm than an omnivorous one. So the oft-repeated line about field rodents in combines is completely irrelevant, and is only used as a dig against vegans/vegetarians or anyone who is attempting to cause less harm. It's in the same category as "ZOMG HITLER WAS A VEGETARIAN!!111"

And for the record, I lived for many years on a farm. So don't think you're telling me anything I don't know.

[China_cat]

51. Then why do you act like you have the only way to a

'clean' diet? And why do you insist that everyone should do and eat the same as you do if it's not about control?

[superduperfarleft]

57. I'm pointing out why I think an omnivorous diet is...

(1) harmful to the environment and (2) harmful to animals. It's not about control, it's called a discussion. Just like people on DU every single day point out why they think it is harmful to shop at Wal-Mart, or drive SUVs, or vote Republican.

I understand the defensiveness, it's not like I was born vegan or anything. I used to react the same way myself whenever someone would point out that my diet, to which I never gave much thought, might actually have consequences for the world around me. I also used to buy sweatshop clothing and shop at Wal-Mart without a second thought. Even though it frustrates me, I can even deal with the snide comments and all-around rudeness that omnivores seem to show whenever the topic comes up.

What I find maddening is the idea that it cannot even be discussed, or the idea that simply discussing it is somehow my trying to "force my beliefs down your throat," or the accusations that I'm acting holier-than-thou simply by pointing out my reasons for believing that an omnivorous diet is harmful to animals and to the planet.

(And I'd be happy to lay out the reasons why I believe the above, but I rarely do so on DU since no one bothers to read them anyway, or just decides to respond with people eating tasty animals jokes.)

[Joe Fields]

190. Do you always start off an enlightening discussion with the phrase, "

"fundie carnivores?" I'll just bet that always furthers a worthwhile debate.

[superduperfarleft]

191. Sure, just as much as a first post that reads

"what a load of shit" in response to the OP, or some such variation.

[Joe Fields]

193. I see. So, you follow the crowd then, right?

[superduperfarleft]

195. Are you channeling Miss Manners?

Or do you actually have something to contribute to this thread?

[Joe Fields]

200. something as elegant as "fundie carnivores?" No, sadly, I have

nothing quite as meaningful to add to this "conversation."

Oh, and good luck with your stay on this board. I'll be taking bets and giving odds as to how long you're going to last.

[superduperfarleft]

216. Gee, I wondered how long that would take.

:eyes:

I'm sure there are ton of ZOMG FREEPERZZZ!!! that are vegan and regularly take the side of anti-neoliberal Latin Americans in immigration discussions. /sarcasm

[LanternWaste]

554. And I'm giving odds and taking bets on how long...

And I'm giving odds and taking bets on how long it will be before 'Fundie' isn't used on DU anymore....

My guess? It'll never go out of vogue.

[Critters2]

137. Oh, please. I've ridden plenty of combines,

done my share of baling,too. It is not a daily occurrence for animals to get caught in the machinery. It happens, but not with the frequency you're lying about. You see, animals have ears and legs. They have this habit of running away from big, loud machines.

Or do you have particularly stupid animals in South Carolina.

Please don't exaggerate. Someone will always call you on it.

Oh, and no, I don't eat meat.

[superduperfarleft]

139. .

Nevermind, I was getting snippy and I shouldn't have.

[NickB79]

158. In mid-June, we see huge numbers of wildlife run through the hay baler

Alfalfa fields are ecological "sinks": they look appealing to nesting rabbits and ground birds, but first-crop alfalfa harvesting usually takes place at exactly the same time there are nests of baby rabbits, pheasants, ducks, turkeys, etc. Most young wildlife, despite having ears and legs, freeze in response to predators. That gets them killed.

I still recall the blood splatter on our combine the year my dad hit a baby deer :(

[Critters2]

163. I've had deer run in front of the combine, but never hit one

Only animal I ever cleaned out of one was a raccoon. And yeah, balers get some, but meat eaters like to exaggerate this when arguing with veg*ns. And it doesn't really matter, since it takes more plants to feed meat than if you ate the plants directly. Meat eaters still cause more combines to run.

[NickB79]

165. Yeah, it's not like a Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie, that's for sure

But it does happen with depressing regularity for the small species. That deer my dad hit was a fawn, trying to stay still and not be seen. Unfortunately, it worked. Thankfully, that was the only one he's hit in his 30 years of farming.

Since I don't know any vegans, I wonder what their stand is on killing insects when harvesting? Now THAT is something to see. After harvesting corn, oats or soybeans, the tops of the bins are just crawling with a living cover of bugs. Does killing 1000 grasshoppers equal killing a chicken?

[Critters2]

475. It takes 16 pounds of grain to produce a pound of beef.

Vegetarians would eat that grain as grain, therefore only a pound at a time. Meat eaters therefor contribute to the deaths of many more insects than vegetarians. If one were concerned about the deaths of animals in the harvest--really concerned--s/he would become veg*n.

[China_cat]

473. I grew up in PA

and have helped clean out the remains of groundhogs, rabbits, grouse, and snakes. Running away doesn't do much good when you've got 3 machines going in different (parallel...2 up, 1 down or the reverse) directions. If the left one don't get you the center one will.

This doesn't even begin to address the burrows crushed by the machines and the moles, voles, groundhogs and rabbits killed by being run over. The ones who thought they were safe underground.

I know you'd like to think your food is 'clean' but it isn't.

[defendandprotect]

281. Well, maybe the combines should go --- and we should stop overpopulating --- !!!

[MindPilot]

26. They would NEVER use an icky, polluting, fossil-fueled farm MACHINE!!

In the all-meat-eaters-are-evil world former agribusiness CEOs would separate the wheat from chaff by hand one grain at at time.

Of course if I had MY way, former Enron day traders would be in my back yard working out on a pedal-powered generator. :D

[China_cat]

29. True, but they'd still have to cut it by sickle.

And walking through the field couldn't help but step on nests. No matter how you cut it, animals will end up dying to produce grain. Maybe not as many when you do it by hand but it simply can't be helped.

[superduperfarleft]

32. Congrats!

You're slowly but surely winning an argument that you're only having with yourself!

[JuniperLea]

459. Well said... and they should all look at FDA regulations on the...

Allowed amount of same in grains.

[truth2power]

98. You're right. I've never been able to figure out

why any discussion of vegetarianism results in so much rancor and defensiveness on this supposedly progressive board.

Just sayin' :eyes:

[Marr]

212. I don't think it's defensiveness. I think it's plain old annoyance.

Vegetarians' preaching can be as annoying as evangelists' preaching. It's easy enough to just ignore a thread, but if you also hear this in everyday life, you may be inclined to get a little testy.

What's more, this list just isn't well thought out at all, or at least not researched. Humans are the only primates that eat meat? That's not even close to being true, but even if it were-- so what? We're the only primates that swim, IIRC-- doesn't mean we should get out of the water.

[defendandprotect]

253. No --- there's a unevoked suggestion of "superiority" which animal-eaters feel --

and since in many cases vegetarianism is based on concern for animal-rights it's difficult
to argue against that message at times!

Needless to say, I don't feel superior ---
I feel more aware, more informed, more compassionate, more enlightened ---

It's like politics here ---
how many of us are arguing for positions which we feel more enlightened on ---
do we feel superior --- no.

We feel saddened that we can't, as yet, get others to see what we see --
the facts are there in both cases ---


but there is no feeling of superiority ---

dismay, concern, fear -- but not superiority.

[Marr]

273. You feel that you're more enlightened, compassionate, and informed- but

not superior. Pardon me so saying so, but that's a contradictory pair of statements.

I've not seen this suggestion of superiority on the part of non-Vegetarians that you refer to, but I certainly have seen it in some of the more evangelical vegans and vegetarians I've met.

Again, I could not care less what you eat. If it offends your sensibilities to kill an animal for food, I can respect that. I do not, however, feel that it makes you more enlightened, informed, or even more compassionate.

[defendandprotect]

284. No, you haven't seen any discussion of "superiority" because it's as hidden as the violence ---

When you --- perhaps as a liberal --- feel more enlightened about capital punishment, let's say . . . or torture . . . do you also feel superior?

Same with the question of animal eating ---

and most of us here are anti-violence --- are we not????

How do you eat animals and at the same time suggest you are against violence --- ???

[Marr]

378. Please tell me you're not equating war or murder with

a chicken dinner.

But I think I do understand your point. When I hear someone arguing in favor of torture or war, I assume they're either uninformed, infected with hate, or just plain stupid. I can see where you're coming from. Eating meat doesn't bother me, however, and I've killed and cleaned my share of animals. I'd never cause undue suffering if I could possibly avoid it, but this particular type of violence seems quite natural to me.

[defendandprotect]

507. I am suggesting "violence begins with the fork" . . /Ghandi

We have always known that cruelty to animals is a strong indication of a youth being
on the wrong track --- look at George Bush who used to put firecrackers up frogs' asses
for his own pleasure!

What has he grown up to be but a murderer?

While you're not discussing health issues, I would presume that you would fail to be aware of the impact of animal/dairy eating on our population?

Your admission that killing animals for food is "violence" juxtaposes oddly with your indications that this feels "natural" to you. I'm thinking about that . . .

I do recall that like many other strange causes, there seems to be indoctrination involved
in having people kill animals for food. Shooting clubs, Dad's taking sons hunting.
Like religion . . . unless you get them early . . . there is often rebellion.
Do you agree?
I think we 've had a number of novels and/or movies written at least touching on that
subject?

I wanted to be a vegetarian since I was 6 ---
and my family went nuts. It's instinctive in me.

I also envision a Garden of Eden where it is unlikely that Eve's sin is about an Apple ---
We have a Bible which is at the least schizophrenic, but we certainly have an admonision
to eat only what "grows in the garden." Cows don't. Pigs don't. Sheep don't.
Many see animals as our sisters and brothers on the planet.

And I see a Garden of Eden where the sin would be the spilling of animal blood ---
probably starting as "sacrifice" ---
And, I can imagine the horror of an Eve trying to explain to the community, the children
what was taking place!
Eve stands today, everywhere, holding the Apple.
The APPLE is the message.

Thanks for your honesty and frankness . . it was an interesting reply.

[LanternWaste]

556. I believe that a Mathematics Professor

I believe that a Mathematics Professor can be much more enlightened and informed on the subject of mathematics-- yet I certainly don't believe that Enlightenment and Knowledge are concomitant with Superiority.

[Matariki]

379. "I feel more aware, more informed, more compassionate, more enlightened"

Yet you say you don't "feel superior"?

Your post should get a DUzy award. It's hysterical :rofl:

If you read this thread with a minimum of bias, it's absurdly obvious that there are feelings of 'superiority' on both sides of the issue. Which makes it quite entertaining.

[defendandprotect]

509. No, I would disagree that animal-eaters think they are "superior" ---

indeed, I think they feel insulted that vegetarians are pointing out the connection to violence.

Next time you're arguing an issue here ---- think about whether you feel better informed and if that makes you feel "superior" ---

When you argue with people who believe in war, do you feel "superior" . . . ?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

416. Really?

" No --- there's a unevoked suggestion of "superiority" which animal-eaters feel --"

Mail me when there is an *8 reasons to be an omnivore* thread started on DU..

[NashVegas]

498. No, It Really Is Annoyance

1. We saw cigarette smokers being turned into outlaws and have had enough of that shit.


2. As an omnivore, it's annoying and frustrating to try to be hospitable to someone automatically rejects 1/4 - 1/3 of the food you would put on the table for them AND tell you you're destroying the world for putting it there.

[defendandprotect]

511. So -- you don't understand the connections between animal-exploitation and

pollution of the planet --- rivers, streams, ground water?

Disposal of waste ---

Impact on human beings who have to do this work in slaughter houses?


THAT's the subject of this thread ---
Along with the health issues ---

However, taking your route via the tobacco issue . . .
What about the glorification of the tobacco industry which went on for more than a half century? These were lies told to the American public about cigarette smoking.
And the fact that taxpayers subsidized tobacco farms?
We subsidized an industry which has made more than 400,000 of our citizens ill with
cancers every year --- and which has had a huge impact on our medical system.
Most of us are paying for the treatment these cancer patients have had to endure.

This was, of course, lies and propaganda by the tobacco indistry not unlike the lies and propaganda we've had from the OIL industry for decades denying Global Warming.

When you suggest that cigarette smokers have been turned into "outlaws" I think you
are confusing the victims with the perpetrators.

While being "annoyed and frustrated" is obviously inconvenient for you ---
I think the thread is about the larger issue of the coming inconvenience of
Global Warming!!

[LanternWaste]

555. many holier-than-thou vegans, there's just as many meat-eaters

On many of the Vegan threads I've read, there's always bound to be the response, "mmmm, I'm gonna cook up some deer tonight! Tastes great!"

So then, it appears that for as many holier-than-thou vegans, there's just as many meat-eaters doing nothing to add civility or salient points to the discussion-- who are just as annoying as the evangelicals...

[uppityperson]

560. I see those as different, not both holier than though, though yes, both uncivil

1) don't eat meat because if you do you don't care about the planet, your health, or the poor beings you eat
2) mmmm, I'm gonna cook up some deer tonight! Tastes great!

Personally I find those who try to dictate to me what to do, or try to manipulate me into doing what they want me to do, are MUCH more annoying than those who express what they will do. There is a difference.

[defendandprotect]

282. It's because of the violence involved in animal eating ... which must be denied --- !!!

[JuniperLea]

464. There are Kosher means...

And the animal never knows what happened. Quick, clean, not enough time for pain. The animals are treated very well right up to the end, any fear would cause adrenalin and endorphins and the meat would no longer be strictly Kosher.

[druidity33]

497. yes

i'm glad i kept reading downthread. I would have posted a near identical response. I've been a veggie for 16 years and primarily because of the disgusting nature of the meat industry. Initially i only bought kosher meat, but i've been poor for a long time and the difficulties in finding a Kosher deli in and around Buffalo were tiresome without having a car. At the time, there were very few prepared vegetarian foods. I learned to cook and grow good veggies. I learned how to make Tofu and soymilk. I sent away for culture to create Tempeh. I owned The Farm cookbook and still have many dog-eared pages.

Now that i live in the "country" in MA, local farms offer grass fed beef, free range, happy cows. After 16 years though, my desire for meat is lessened to the extent that i don't think it's worth starting to eat it again. I've sampled deer, goat, and chicken in the past year... all from farmer/hunter friends in the area. Meh... i could take it or leave it. I'll stick with gardening and alternative protein sources.

btw, a Kosher slaughterer is called a Shochet(?) and is actually a rabbi. They need to go to a special school and have MANY rules about how animals are killed. Blade is sharpened between each kill, cow cannot be in the same room as other cows, cow cannot see the blade as it's killed, if it takes more than one cut to kill then the cow isn't used, etc.


As for the OP, i agree with nearly every point. Picking on the Primate point is silly b/c obviously the OP is wrong. On Nature and what is natural, well that's been a question for Philosophers for millenia... not really solvable. Akin to saying, "What is God?"

Back to dinner and the inlaws...

:)

[defendandprotect]

512. So . .. if there's no pain then there's no violence --- ??? Are you kidding?

Spilling blood of an animal is violence ---

Now maybe in your neighborhood animals are knocking on doors and voluneering to slit their
own throats to be your dinner, however, in most neighborhoods, these animals aren't volunteers -- and there are more than 12 million of them slaughtered every day.

Think simply of the WASTE and the pollution -- the impact on the planet ---

Coming back to the planet and Global Warming --- that is the subject of the thread.

And, health issues connected to animal/dairy eating ---

[JuniperLea]

548. When every hungry human being on the planet is fed

and the means to feed them situated so as not to kill animals, then I'll gladly stick up for said animals. Until such a time, the children have no voice, and they deserve to live even if it means sacrificing an animal to make that happen.

I find it horribly disgusting to expend so much energy to "save" animals when children are still starving and without homes. If all that energy and angst were properly prioritized and used for children and other starving human beings, we would more quickly come to the time when the priority would rightfully go toward animals.

[defendandprotect]

549. Evidently you don't understand that animals have to be FED . . . in other words,

the food you are giving animals could be given to children.

So --- as has been spoken of here repeatedly --- you are running vegetation thru animals, investing in systems to process and kill them --- and then selling this product to humans.

It is not a lack of vegetation which creates hunger for the world's children ---
it is a lack of $$$$ ---

And evidently you've missed other large parts of not only the discussions but the main thread.

Are you interested at all in saving the planet?

If you are, vegetarianism/Veganism is the way to go.

Domestication of animals and animal slaughter create huge problems for the planet in pollution of rivers, lakes, streams, underground waterways.

Plus either the land and/or the factories where they are housed until killed.

Additionally, we have pointed out the connection between concepts of brutality towards animals and growing up to be abusive to human beings -- George Bush/Frogs --- torture?

Maybe you'd like to devote a bit of time now to trying to understand the discussion.

[JuniperLea]

552. You are missing the point

We cannot change these systems that have been in place for centuries overnight. To attempt to do so would further keep food from the stomachs of children.

I'm all for making the change, but not at the risk of the children. To think it can happen simply by throwing money at the situation is naive, as is the thought that just because a lot of people agree, it will happen overnight. Maybe you'd like to devote some time to reality based thinking instead of the ridiculous practice of attempting to bully and insult your way into change. This will only do your cause more harm.

[defendandprotect]

561. Let's just eat the crops --- !!!

Nowhere did I suggest "throwing money at the situation" . . .

What I said was that HUNGER occurs NOT because of a shortage of food, but because the poor can't afford food.

So ... no matter how many cows and chickens you might be recommending we slaughter ...
the poor will still go hungry.

We can change systems overnight when we have an informed public --
we could put ELECTRIC CARS on our highways in a matter of a few years --
and we could subsidize both ends of it --- manufacture and purchase --
and be rid of gas-guzzlers creating Global Warming.

And we could cease the pollution of animal-exploitation just as quickly with an informed public.

To follow your distorted thinking on animal-exploitation vs hungry children, we'd be killing every animal on the planet --- horses and dogs included!!!

Again --- rather than running crops thru cows and slaughtering them . . .
let's just eat the crops!!

[uppityperson]

553. Wrong again, at best too simplistic. Poor resource distribution creates hunger.

Not lack of $$$$$$$$.

ps. bullying doesn't help influence anyone.

[defendandprotect]

562. Propaganda works . . ..

No matter how much food you make available --- and America is a groaning board of food ---
the poor are hungry because they can't afford to buy it!

We have NO shortage of food in America, but 25% of our children live in poverty and many go hungry.

[Warren DeMontague]

381. No, see, "fundies" are usually the ones DOING the preaching.

Finger wagging at other people about how to live their lives, twisted in pathetic little bouts of frustration because the rest of the human race simply won't DO AS THEY ARE TOLD.
Yeah, everybody LOVES a fucking preachy, self-righteous moralizing ninny. Lots of fun at parties! :party:

[defendandprotect]

513. The "gods" come and go --- however, we have only one planet --- !!!

The thread is about the damage to the planet caused by animal/dairy eating --

but I have to agree that the talk at parties isn't much about reality ---
Even without a party going on --- the population hardly seems to be aware of
Global Warming or the issues surrounding "meat" eating.

[Marrah_G]

401. Probably because of the fundie Veggie spreading bullshit

[China_cat]

15. #8 Soy alternative

tastes nasty, has a nasty texture and is one of the top offenders in allergens. Not to mention the hormonal problems caused by soy.

[K8-EEE]

278. Try "Yves Good Ground"

Get the "taco stuffer" kind and make chili with it - I've yet to have anybody be able to tell the difference. Or use the regular in spaguetti sauce. I still have a steak once in a while but day to day cooking everybody really loves that stuff in several different applications. And $2.99 worth of it works with a family of four!

I'm not a fan of the dried kind that you reconstitute though.

[China_cat]

395. I have tried enough, of enough different kinds to know

that it's not going to be brought into my kitchen.

[Annces]

16. Thanks for posting

I am glad to see this topic brought up on DU.

[mainer]

18. How did Ice Age man survive as vegetarians?

I'm just curious how that would have happened. If eating meat is so unnatural, then most of the human population in Northern Europe during the winter months were doing unnatural things.

[pathansen]

203. Humans have, of course, eaten meat for a long time

But things have changed a lot in just the last few decades. Do we really have a choice in today's overcrowded world with the threat of global warming, mass starvation, factory farming, health and environmental risks, etc.? There is immense waste with animals are at the top of the food chain. There has been massive deforestation, methane gas from pigs waste, antibiotics and dyes and hormones placed in meat and then the sodium nitrate in processed meats cause cancer. And the list goes on.

[mainer]

435. My point is, carnivorous behavior is NATURAL for humans

And I'm tired of hearing that we were meant to be vegetarians.

[MindPilot]

20. What about seafood? Is it ok?

And another question. I'm one of those I eat what I feel like at the time type of people because I believe my body knows what it needs and that's the food it makes me want. Sometimes I want a steak, sometimes I want a salad and sometimes I want a can of Coke.

Here's the question: When I do eat a non-meat meal I feel like I have to eat much more to get the same level of satiation...to feel "full". Is that true for everyone and if we did get to an all-vegan culture is there enough arable land to grow that much food?

[defendandprotect]

288. Seafood? I think there are veggies who eat seafood. I don't ---

Ever notice how much portobello mushrooms taste like steak?

Do you really think that coke -- basically brown sugar water --- should be part of anyone's diet?

Eating animal/dairy products will make you feel "full"/heavy --- in unpleasant ways ---
Eating your fill of fresh fruits and vegetables makes you feel full in not unpleasant ways.

There are a number of reasons why you might think you have to eat more when you eat vegetables/fruits . . . first because farming has taken a lot of the nutrition out of vegetables/fruits . . . so you need to eat more in order to get the nutrition you need.

If you eat organic food, you see the difference --- including in your health, imo.

Farming is also moving off the ground and into hot houses --- if GW doesn't knock them down!!???

Nuts and seeds, of course, should be a larger part of the diet --

Think of all the land we have tied up in animal-exploitation?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

417. LOL

"Ever notice how much portobello mushrooms taste like steak?"

No, Im sorry I love poetobello mushrooms but they tates *nothing like steak*...

Look Veggie burgers are crap if you like them great but they dont taste like burgers and uf you cant nail a burger youre never going to get steak..

[Stump]

21. To each his own...

I'm getting ready to throw down on some Christmas ham real soon. Don't judge me...I'm an addict. Just thinking about that juicy ham is making my mouth water...:9

[DB1]

30. Exactly.... Enjoy and Merry Christmas.

[defendandprotect]

289. Would be eating "ham" if you had to slaughter the pig and "process" it --- ????

[uppityperson]

323. Yes. I'd rather raise my own than buy commercial meat.

Eat local, both veggies and meat. Eat local fruits too, and as little as possible out of season. IMHO, everyone should have a small garden and be involved with getting their own food beyond sanitarily wrapped everything at the store. WTF is it with buying an apple, which has been coated with wax, putting it in a plastic bag, then another bag, to carry home, wash and eat?

[Stump]

403. Probably so...

I kill & process deer and enjoy eating the meat. Not only tasty but very healthy as well. And I do agree animals should be treated humanely. I don't feel bad killing a deer when they are being maimed every night in my area by car crashes in my area due to overpopulation. So yes, I know I would eat it. I buy homemade sausage every year that farmers just down the road make.

[superduperfarleft]

22. Expanding on #1:

At our current levels of consumption (and the artificially low prices we're used to paying for animal products), it is NOT sustainable. Buying "organic," "free-range" etc. etc. etc. is not only nothing more than a privilege that the wealthy first-world has, widespread agricultural practices such as these could not possibly supply enough meat to keep up with current consumption (and to maintain said artificially low prices) without the use of factory farms.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Nov05/Hall1118.htm

[Stuckinthebush]

23. Confessions of an ex-meat eater

I'm a vegetarian - have been for going on 4 years now. I used to laugh at vegetarians and tell them they were wimps and unhealthy. Who wouldn't love a nice, juicy steak? Crazy vegetarians!

Then, one day in my physician's office, she told me my HDL was dangerously low and that I needed to take drastic measures. One of those measures was cutting back on meat. My wife, also a physician, said, "No, you will be cutting out all meat!"

A forced vegetarian! My god! I'll be one of those pansy, sickly people forced to eat raw broccoli all the time!

After the first few months I stopped looking at the steaks on the menu. Then I stopped thinking about eating meat. Then I started to look at the raw meat in the store with a little level of disgust. Then it grew and I thought, "I was eating that?" Now, I can't imagine putting meat in my mouth.

Remember, I'm not a philosophical vegetarian. I have no problem with people who do eat meat, but it illustrates to me how conditioned we are to want to eat meat. My daughters have never been forced to eat meat, but they haven't been discouraged. Now, two of the three are vegetarians as well. My youngest still eats meat. I think that they aren't used to it at home, and so they don't think about it while they are out. Eventually, they decided that they just didn't want it.

Anyway, I understand the visceral anti-vegetarian responses from some meat eaters but I encourage them to examine why they have such anger toward vegetarians. I think a lot of it is societally produced.

[MindPilot]

37. Now I have a friend who had exactly the opposite experience

She was a vegetarian for ethical reasons for many years. And she just kept getting weaker and would catch every bug that came around--she actually thought she had AIDS. Doctor told her she had to at least eat chicken and fish. After a couple months she was back to her old self.

I think the lesson is that nutrition--like most everything else--is a very individual thing.

[Stuckinthebush]

76. Nutrition is nutrition

I think that you have to pay attention to protein intake much more carefully as a vegetarian. Some people become vegetarian and do not eat beans or soy which are incredible sources of protein. This will weaken you after a while.

[defendandprotect]

291. There's good protein from fresh fruits and vegs; and bad protein from animal souces ---

in fact, if animal protein levels become too high your system will break down bone to flush calcium thru your blood stream to flush it out!

Fruits and vegetables are all high in protein and calicum --- the kind of protein and calicum your body needs.

Meanwhile, America's animal/dairy-eating diet is creating high levels of osteoporosis ---

[Silent3]

412. According to some studies, soy protien is bad for you.

http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/index.htm

What I think is probably ultimately true is that there is no perfect diet. It's all trade-offs. You can't get all of the healthy results you want from any one food or any combination of foods. X strengthens your bones, but turns out to contribute to Alzheimer's. Y improves kidney function, but then you find out it also weakens your immune system.

The most natural condition of all is barely surviving just long enough to reproduce and rear young creatures who can just barely survive in order to repeat the cycle. For humans, our genetic heritage isn't quite enough to ensure our survival without a memetic heritage as well, but having a small fraction of our population living beyond prime reproductive years -- a few who reach the ripe old age of 40 -- will suffice to pass on the memes we need to scrape by.

Nothing about the majority of humans living long, peaceful, healthy live is natural. That's not to say we shouldn't take better care of the environment (we desperately need to do that), or that so-called natural foods in some cases might not sometimes be healthier for us than processed foods with artificial ingredients. It helps to put the appeal of the word "natural" in perspective, however, to remember how very unnatural it is to expect a good number of us to live until we're 70, 80, or even 90 years old in robust good health.

[HannibalBarca]

434. Would you do me a favour?

I actually agree that a reduction in meat consumption would be beneficial to some people who consume far too much of it but please when you attempt to use science to back up your ideology you simply come across as very poorly informed. I have never heard of the phenomenon you speak of, bone resorption and breakdown is mediated by calcium levels as determined by the parathyroid gland which in turn releases PTH to increase resorption. For a start you cant even spell calcium, please point out the observational, cohort, retrospective or prospective studies which are evaluating the link of osteoporosis you speak of?

[DFW]

385. I'm halfway between you and post #25

I was diagnosed with too high LDL almost 4 years ago, and had 2 coronary
arteries 99% blocked. They put 2 stents in, and told me that I was a massive
heart attack just waiting to happen, as in any day now.

They brought in the dietician, and she said no more mammal meat. Poultry
only, and ocean fish was better (no shellfish). My levels are now down to
normal, and I don't miss the red meat much at all, although living in Europe
and not allowed to eat cheese is an ongoing torture of unimaginable proportions.

I get pure olive oil sent up from a private olive orchard in Spain, and haven't
had a meal cooked in butter since April, 2004.

[JanMichael]

46. I'm also a vegetarian due to cholesterol.

And like you over time I simply cease to look at meat the same way. Toss in factory farming and I'm now an ethical vegetarian as well as a health reasons vegetarian.

I also used to claim that I loved meat, steak, chicken, pork, steak tartar, SO much that I could never, ever, ever, be a vegetarian. What a lot of crock. There are very few things that a person cannot change about their diet and deal with it.

All that aside I was never as hostile toward vegetarians when I ate meat than what I've seen here. The nastiness on threads like this on DU are disturbing.

[Stuckinthebush]

78. It is very disturbing

I may have laughed and joked about vegetarians, but I don't recall ever being hostile. There are many who are irrationally hostile to those who choose not to eat meat. I guess they feel threatened or judged.

[MonkeyFunk]

129. and the best cholesterol numbers I ever had in my life

was after doing Atkins for 4 months. My HDL was way up, LDL way down and triglycerides cut in half. No other medication - just lots of meat, cheese and salads.

[Critters2]

143. How were your kidney numbers?

My ACM was on Atkins, but ended up in kidney failure. He's veg now.

[MonkeyFunk]

145. No problem at all

[defendandprotect]

295. Are you raising the question of whether animal-eating causes . . .

aggressiveness in humans --- ???

:nuke:

[JanMichael]

433. Hardly. If so I would have been just as much of a jerk as I've seen...

...here on DU towards vegetarians.

I wasn't aggressive/hostile hence I doubt it is meat eating that causes such aggressive/hostile behavior by meat eaters in the vegetarian threads on DU.

I am however quite aggressive towards conservatives. Since I eat no meat does that mean if I did I'd like conservatives? I doubt it.

[Matariki]

340. confessions of an ex-vegan - opposite experience.

I thought I was eating well when I was a vegan, rice & beans, tofu, lots of fruits and vegetable. No supplements though, that might have helped.

I got horribly anemic. I went for a year without having my period because my iron count was so low. I kept deluding myself and proclaiming how much energy I had and how much better I felt since becoming vegan. That was nearly 25 years ago. After going to the doctor I started adding small amounts of meat and dairy to my diet and got better. The bulk of my food is still vegetables, grains and tofu, with 4-6 ounce portions of fish or meat about 5 times a week. I'm 50 this year and rarely get sick or need to go to the doctor. Not saying that vegetarian can't work for others, it just wasn't my optimal diet.

I'm interested in nutrition and get drawn to threads like this like a fly on poop. I should know better ;-)

[flvegan]

363. 25 years ago. I have to give you credit.

Vegans like me, I can honestly tell you, hold folks that tried it "back in the day" in high revere regardless of their dietary choices today.

Like you've stated (kinda) it all comes back to nutrition.

[Matariki]

375. Did I say 25 years ago? I lied.

It was in the mid to late 70's so I guess I shaved some years off of that. Wishful thinking!

There is definitely a better variety of tastier choices for vegans these days. Fortunately I've always liked tofu and it was readily available where I lived at the time. But I remember eating some god-awful stuff called 'soysage'. Although I'm not vegan now, I really like and eat a lot of 'vegan' foods like tempeh bacon and 'chicken' seitan & the deli across from where I work makes a fantastic soy pizza. Yeah, you kids got it good these days ;-)

[Marrah_G]

404. My anger is for the same reason religious preachies piss me off

I don't care what you choose to eat or not eat. If you come to my house for dinner I will cook in way that accommodates my guests.

The annoyance comes in when people start telling me how I need to live my life and then back it up with lies.

[Stuckinthebush]

456. Who is telling you what to eat?

Sure, there are some in any lifestyle that tell you what to do, but the majority of vegetarians just try to educate on their lifestyle. I see it as similar in liberals trying to educate about their beliefs but not similar to preaching to people. There are many benefits to our health and our environment to vegetarianism. That is why vegetarians and vegans want to spread the word.

[Marrah_G]

462. Again your post sounds like someone trying to save me

Just replace some words with Christianity.

___________
Sure, there are some in any lifestyle that tell you what to do, but the majority of Christians just try to educate on their lifestyle. I see it as similar in liberals trying to educate about their beliefs but not similar to preaching to people. There are many benefits to our health and our environment to Christianity. That is why Christians want to spread the word.

____________

I don't need saving. I don't care about your beliefs. I do not want to hear your 'spreading of the word".

The Fundie Christians also believe they are doing "what is best for me" and they are "looking out for my (spiritual) health"

Now surely you can see how obnoxious that is. If you can't then I doubt we have anything further to discuss.

[Stuckinthebush]

476. Then don't click on a post about vegetarianism

Similarly, don't go into a post about Christianity. Why do that to yourself? The OP made some valid points about vegetarianism, but if you have such a negative reaction to vegetarians, then it would be wise to ignore such posts all together.

[Marrah_G]

489. I don't have negative reactions to Vegetarians

I just have negativity towards propaganda posts using lies to try and guilt people into not living the way someone else thinks they ought to.

I would do the same if someone posted about how everyone should eat meat and that if they were not eating meat they were cruel, uncaring, unnatural and causing great harm to the world.

[uppityperson]

491. Thank you Marrah, I agree. Propaganda posts, no matter what the subject.

[matcom]

25. #5 is the biggest crock of shite I have ever heard

if our teeth aren't canine, then we are all vampires :crazy:

[alarimer]

38. Most of the whole list is

Humans, biologically speaking, are omnivores, which includes meat and meat has always made up a large part of our diet historically. In addition, there are certain amino acids that are only found in animal protein which are required. I am sure vegetarians can take supplements but you can be just as healthy on an omnivorous diet.

I think the main problem we have is portion control. We just eat to damn much of everything. I agree that the way farm animals are raised in concentrated feedlots IS unhealthy for them and for us. But that can be changed if we have the will to do so. Reading the Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan and his discussion of Polyface Farms made it clear that there is a way to raise cattle, chickens, pigs, etc in a sustainable way. I am not absolutely certain how to do that on a mass production level though. He also pointed out the the "industrial organic" system is nearly as bad as industrial agriculture- they use a whole lot of fossil fuels to get that organic produce to market. In any case the word "organic" is used simply as a marketing label and means very little in reality. Although I suppose they are marginally better, if more expensive, than traditional methods. There are other labels like that. "Free range chicken" comes to mind. In order to be certified "free range" a chicken simply has to have access to the outdoors. They don't actually have to use it. And most do not.

[Boojatta]

59. "there are certain amino acids that are only found in animal protein which are required."

Could you name those amino acids?

[flvegan]

70. You're going to be waiting a LONG time for that answer.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. Nah those are for chomping on that ear of corn, dontcha know?

:)

[HereSince1628]

44. But Matt, our teeth are not canine-like. If you look at a dog's mouth

and then your wife's you'll notice a huge difference. Now if you don't tell your wife that you see that, she just might bite through your jugular!



But...Seriously, dogs and cats have carnisorial molars and they are not shaped like human molars. Dog canines and incisors haven't anything like the proportional shapes of their human counterparts.

[Dead_Parrot]

35. So let me get his straight...

Eating meat is unnatural, but eating mock duck made out of soy is fine?

I think I just had an aneurysm.

http://www.tolweb.org/tree/ToLimages/bab+meat.jpg

[China_cat]

54. I've always wondered about that too.

If eating meat is so wrong why does everything without meat have to look like and pretend to be the meat it isn't? Tofu hot dogs? Veggie burgers? Tofurkey? It makes no sense.

The same with soy 'milk', rice 'milk', coconut 'milk' etc. It ain't milk. And no amount of pretending is going to change what they are.

[superduperfarleft]

58. Many vegans/vegetarians do not eat the super-processed meat analogs.

I don't. Most of those products are for people who recently changed their diets, anyway, and are very different than things like tofu. For instance, my wife is of Chinese descent, and we eat quite a bit of tempeh, seitan, tofu, soy milk, etc. as Asian cultures have done for centuries. It's unfair and flat-out wrong to act like vegans/vegetarians do nothing but eat highly-processed chemical crap in an attempt to hang on to the meat that they supposedly miss so much.

[China_cat]

60. You might not

but you evidently haven't been reading this thread where the meat wannabes are being touted as the 'answer'.

And no, it isn't just from 'new' vegans/vegetarians that we've seen these products not only recommended but extolled. Frankly, I just think it's really funny to disparage all meat products and then make your substitutes look like them...to the point of even using 'meat' names...and not consider the hypocrisy of it.

[flvegan]

62. How is it hypocritical?

Bacon, etc tastes good. So? I like having a fake bacon alternative. In case you missed the entirety of the point of the OP, taste wasn't part of the issue.

[NorthernSpy]

64. "taste wasn't part of the issue"

Matters of taste and satisfaction play a big role in turning vegetarians into ex-vegetarians. So yeah, taste is always part of the issue.

[flvegan]

68. What the hell does that have to do with what I posted?

Like a dog with a bone, you are.

Taste and satisfaction play in big role in more and more folks eating less meat or no meat altogether.

[NorthernSpy]

87. everything...

You want to persuade people to stop eating meat.

And I'm telling you that few people stick with a vegetarian diet over the long haul.


It just seems relevant, at least to me.

[flvegan]

91. Few? "Long haul"?

Please share your data and definitions to back up your post.

Thanks.

[superduperfarleft]

93. Well, "some people say."

And "I knew this guy once." What, that's not enough evidence for you?

[flvegan]

99. 2006 Harris poll

found that roughly 7% of the adult US population was of the non-meat eating variety. That's just the US. The Indian population approaches 30%. I can't wait for that data from our friend above.

[NorthernSpy]

100. it's not all anecdotal. There's a study on this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2519210&mesg_id=2520175

[NorthernSpy]

96. "the survey found that only 42% of vegetarians stuck to a diet w/ no red meat, poultry, or fish"...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_3786000/3786327.stm


In a survey of 11,000 people, 4% claimed to be current vegetarians. Of those, more than half admitted to cheating.


Come on -- think about it: don't you know some ex-vegetarians? I do.


Of course, ex-veg people don't exactly advertise their presence. You probably won't see them wearing t-shirts saying, "Former Veg -- Ask Me How I Fell Off The Wagon!".

[flvegan]

104. So

42% equates to "few"? That was the word you used, correct?

Of course I know a few ex-vegetarians. I know a lot more ex-meat eaters, though, tbh.

[JuniperLea]

463. Ex vegetarian here...

I was a vegetarian for five years, adhering to strict guidelines, read all the books, saw a vegetarian nutritionist... no, two, actually... then...

My hair started falling out, my bones became brittle (broke toes from simple stubbing!), my skin became ultra sensitive to the slightest scratchy clothing, couldn't even scratch with my nails, I started having migraine headaches, my teeth went to hell, my eyes dried out and my allergies went haywire. I was eating cheese and eggs, whole rice and legumes... but still couldn't get enough protein... my nails pealed and became thinner than paper, more like rice paper, and I started getting infections.

I resumed eating fish and foul at my doctor's insistance... my hair and nails grew back, my bones are now solid, I have regained some fingernails, but was advised that the nail beds were so starved that they may never come back fully.

I'm all for people doing what they feel is right for them, but I am totally against this "meat eaters are monsters" bullshit. This is every bit as bad as having some Fundy try to create laws and abolish other laws because their mythical cloud being's ancient texts say something about what they should do.

I'm sick of being told what to do by governments, Fundies, and vegi-fucking-tarians. Live and let live... that's called being PROGRESSIVE!!!

[Critters2]

474. My health has improved since giving up meat,

just as the American Heart Association predicted it would.

As to "live and let live", I believe that should apply to all creatures--including non-human animals.

[JuniperLea]

483. You are welcome to your beliefs and your opinions...

That's the beauty about being progressive.

I eat only heirloom meats, raised free-range without hormones and antibiotics. When the time comes, they are processed in the old-fashioned Kosher methods so there is no fear and no adrenaline or other hormones or endorphins in quantity.

When every one of the 73,000 adults and children in Los Angeles County who are hungry every night are fed, I'll start worrying about the beasts.

[China_cat]

130. Why call it bacon?

Why not flavored soy? It's only named after meat to sucker people who probably wouldn't bother with it to begin with.

It's a lie to call it after meat when it isn't.

[flvegan]

180. Why not call bacon "processed slaughtered pig parts" then?

Cuz, yeah, I'm sure folks get "suckered" into buying fake meat. You're suggesting people are too stupid to read the word "meatless" and "soy" on the box.

[superduperfarleft]

77. History of seitan:

" We do know that seitan has been popular in the Asian countries for centuries, while only recently becoming popular in America, thanks to the Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons and the macrobiotic diet (Timothy Aitken, Vegetarian Times magazine article, Feb. 1997)." http://wheres-the-meat.blogspot.com/2007/02/i-promised-several-posts-back-to-post.html

A nice flash timeline of grain meats: http://www.fieldroast.com/grainmeatstory.htm

Stupid hypocritical asian people...

[China_cat]

132. It, by itself, isn't called by a MEAT name.

It isn't called 'burger' or 'turkey' or 'bacon' (with the 'vegetable alternative' in letters too small to read).

[cynthia]

183. been a vegetarian for going on 31 years

and raised my children as vegetarians. There was never a need to serve up "faux" meat, since they had never had the real thing, they were not attracted to having a substitute.


The thing that galls me about many non-vegetarians I meet is that they don't have a lot of live food in their kitchen - rarely eat vegetables or fruit! --and never eat beans (except the Boston baked beans in a can - sorry that is a far cry from the only way to serve beans!)

We would all be better off if we shop local, eat food that is grown nearby (including meat from organic farmers if that is your choice), eat less and spend less time being critical of others. (bad for the mental health). (BTW: I live in MN so don't tell me about not getting fresh food in winter)

Signing off to make a sumptuous vegetarian meal for my family.

Peace

[China_cat]

467. Live food? Of course.

I grew up on a farm with a huge kitchen garden and couldn't live without some things in the ground. I've got an 8 foot table (slip dumping table from the ceramic shop) that I use for herbs. This year I had a good yield of tomatoes, hot peppers, (my green peppers didn't do anything at all) carrots, lemon grass and eggplant. In fact, we had some eggplant off the vine last week. It's Dec. 24 and the plants STILL have a few fruit on them. 3 plants and they were worse than any zucchini ever thought of being. We've eaten eggplant since July. I have 24 containers in the freezer of blanched eggplant pieces, 12 containers of eggplant soup base. I've taken eggplant to my sister and my aunt in PA. My husband has taken eggplant to work TWICE for coworkers. I've taken a large bag of it to the medical university for the people who are doing the med study I'm in. I've considered putting a sign on the gate saying 'free to good home'. And it still keeps coming.

Next year...more tomatoes, no eggplant.

[defendandprotect]

297. I find ideas like that disgusting . . .

and I have no idea why anyone would be looking for tofu in any form but what it comes in--????

Coconut does provide "milk" --- it is not simply an alternative ---

soy "milk" on the other hand is dangerously salty ---

[Critters2]

149. Mock duck is made out of wheat. It's also called seitan.

And is easily made. Asian cultures have been eating it for centuries, maybe millenia.

Your aneurysm was probably due to blocked arteries from too much meat.

[elocs]

36. The last thing the pro-vegetarian point of view needs

is for somebody to self righteously get in the face of others about vegetarianism. Beating people over the head with your choice of lifestyle about something as personal as to what to eat is not exactly the way to make friends and influence people.

I also take exception with point #5 since I have seen the examples of chimps actively hunting and eating other animals. Like bears we are omnivores and can survive and thrive on a wide variety of foods. When you try and pass off something as a fact when it is not true, then it casts doubts upon your other assertions of "fact".

Personally I have no trouble with vegetarianism because my diet is mostly vegetarian which is probably why my cholesterol level from my last physical a few weeks ago was 139.

[defendandprotect]

49. This is really humorous consider the aggression coming from the pro-animal-eating side here --- !!

And, basically, what you're post is asking for is that the veggie side please "shut up."

Did you see a chim hunt for an animal --- and cook it?

Or, are you eating your "meat" raw, as well?

[pathansen]

219. I don't agree with you cause people need to be aware of these issues

I was not "beating people over the head" but simply listing some important reasons for eating less meat.
And I also feel that it is no longer just a personal choice now that this affects the whole planet. Its directly linked to global warming , climate crisis and there's the added problems of world population explosion. Can we still afford to eat that steak if its at the top of the food chain? Also other issues such as being poisoned by all the toxic additives in meat, etc.

[ThomWV]

42. Your teeth and your gut make you an omnivore. If your head believes otherwise its wrong.

[defendandprotect]

50. Tjhat would only be true if you were eating uncooked RAW animals ---

No animal that kills another animal for food does anything but eat it IMMEDIATELY and UNCOOKED --

When you're doing that, let us know!

[dysfunctional press]

105. it's called evolution- look it up.

we could eat our meat raw if we chose to- although at this point, that would probably be unwise with most meats due to the 'softening' of our immune system.

man as a species has developed to the point where we can control fire, and prepare our food to taste.

[Marr]

223. I read an interesting book that touched on this.

I can't recall the title right now, but the author was an anthropologist, and he was attempting to explain the relatively subtle, and seemingly meaningless, physiological changes that showed up in modern humans (smaller jaw, smaller brow ridge, etc.)

He made a convincing argument that the human jaw became smaller not just as a result of fire for cooking, but as a side effect of domestication. Basically, when animals are domesticated, there are certain physical characterstics that tend to accompany the more docile behavior. They're juvenile-traits, basically. You get smaller jaws, mottled fur, that sort of thing.

So this was happening at a time when the ability to cooperate and work withing a larger community would really increase your chances for survival. We were domesticating ourselves, so to speak.

[China_cat]

133. I adore steak tartare.

[defendandprotect]

299. Isn't that raw ground meat?

how do you wash it?

[uppityperson]

302. Simple. You wash it then grind it.

It is not hamburger, but clean raw mean ground or chopped into little bits and mixed with stuff. Problem with commercial hamburger is it isn't just clean meat but all the whatever also.

[China_cat]

394. I grind my own.

[Marrah_G]

426. dupe post

[Marrah_G]

428. No other Herbivore cultivates crops.

When you are eating food you have picked in the wild, raw, without using tools, let me know.

[Lorien]

63. Lets take a look at that argument.

In nature these things are very clearly defined by an animal's teeth. Here are the teeth of an obligate carnivore (an animal that MUST eat meat) a tiger:



Let's compare it with the teeth of a true omnivore, a raccoon:



Our third comparison, the teeth of a herbivore, a horse:



Now think of your own teeth. Which skull contains teeth that most closely resemble your own?

[flvegan]

65. !!

:popcorn:

[NorthernSpy]

69. alrighty: my teeth are pointier than horse teeth...

... so I should eat more meat than a horse would.


:shrug:


I dunno that this argument from dentition really helps your cause.

[foo_bar]

168. I'd have to go with the raccoon

Many mammals, including humans, pigs, bears, and raccoons, have roughly quadrate (euthemorphic upper) cheek teeth with low, rounded cusps. The lower teeth are also quadrate, usually as a result of the loss of the paraconid (so that the four major cusps are the protoconid, metaconid, entoconid, and hypoconid). These upper and lower cheek teeth are termed bunodont. Species with bunodont teeth often have broad diets consisting of many different kinds of foods with different consistencies. In addition to hominids (Hominidae), bear (Ursidae), raccoons (Procyonidae), pigs (Suidae), and many other kinds of mammals have bunodont teeth.

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/topics/mammal_anatomy/tooth_diversity.html

[ileus]

176. We don't have to kill our meat with claws and our teeth.

We don't need claws and large k9's to harvest our meat,(maybe at some time we did) we have brains. As a hunter we can't out run any animal faster than a turtle, we have no natural ways to kill what would be our pray.
Not only are we unnatural killers of pray, we also are unique that we're able to cook meals over a fire. That's why we're at the top of the food chain.

[defendandprotect]

300. But that's what nature has to make you capable of doing in order to proclaim the label --- !!!

And all the things you've listed --- assets we lack --- point to the fact that we are not naturally animal eaters.

We have come to the "top of the food chain" thru violence ---

and this violence is killing the planet ---

[NickB79]

374. We replaced those assets with tools through evolution, a natural process

"And all the things you've listed --- assets we lack --- point to the fact that we are not naturally animal eaters."

Tools replaced fangs, and cunning trapping abilities and spears replaced the need to run swiftly after prey. Unless you're saying there was something unnatural about human ancestor species developing tools 2 million years ago :shrug:

[baby_mouse]

392. "We can't out run any animal faster than a turtle" is slightly misleading...

Actually, being bipedal improves energy expenditure in some strategies, notably endurance running. Some wolves hunt by wearing their prey down over long periods of time, and so do some humans, still. two legs are more efficient than 4 over long distances. Some have theorised that it was this that was the primary selection pressure favouring the human bipedal stance, not the necessity to use tools for hunting, which was a secondary adaptation.

We're better at endurance running than most ungulates. For hunting purposes, this means we can outrun them.

[Marr]

220. I don't understand how people can argue that we aren't omnivores.

Ever gone camping, or tried to live off the land for any extended period of time? If you're not looking for a creature to eat, even if it's a bug, you're going have a very hard time getting by. You can't digest most of the plants out there.

Do you really think pre-humans and early humans would've passed up meat when they could get it?

[defendandprotect]

301. People have eaten snakes and cockroaches when they're starving . . .

Russians ate other people in order to stay alive during WWII ---

What does that prove?

[Marr]

380. I'd say it proves we're omnivores.

When was the last time you heard of a starving herbivore turning cannibal? Omnivores have their preferences, but if necessary they'll eat just about anything. That's why they're so survivable.

I've eaten snakes and other less than appealing critters on long outdoor trips, like kayak trips or long hikes. Not much of a meal, but when you're hungry and tired, they don't sound so bad. I'm glad they're an option. I'm glad we can get energy from them, because sometimes there just isn't an edible plant anywhere near.

[yewberry]

510. Honestly?

I think part of it has to do with the fact that people announce that "we" are omnivores and proceed to prove it to us, completely ignoring and being disrespectful to those who've made different choices and aren't omnivores.

I'm not an omnivore, but I'm still a person.

I don't think that what pre-humans and early humans ate has much to do with someone telling me what I am and that I'm "wrong" or the other nice things that have been said about me and all veg*ns in this thread.

[HuffleClaw]

43. meet your meat !

almost sounds like a porn title

5. is simply not true in the least. chimps are very much carnivorous (and have been known to eat HUMAN babies)

3. is nonsense as well. i have no problem with the other reasons, but a pretense of morality just pisses me off.

[defendandprotect]

52. Great need for a thread like this --- though we can see very emotional reactions!!!

No one it seems wants to acknowledge the threat to the planet from human anti-eating ---

Yet, most here seem to understand Global Warming and pollution of the planet.

The huge antimal-eating industry makes about as much sense for the planet as the gas-guzzling car-!!

And, the eating of animals/diary is connected to cancer --- a problem now effecting every 3 of 4
Americans --- ???

PLUS, one of the most uncomfortable associations with animal-eating is of course the violence ---
and from what we see over and again that violence has to be either denied or dismissed by animal-eater.

In fact, we have DAIRY because of the total enslavement of animals --- forced to breed over and again to produce milk.

I'd encourage anyone who is concerned about the planet to give some thought to this tremendous pollution of the planet from animal-eating.

[flvegan]

55. Excellent food for thought.

Thanks for posting.

[NorthernSpy]

56. the dirty little secret of vegetarianism: cheating and backsliding galore!

At any given time, there are always more ex-vegetarians than current vegetarians. Most people who become vegetarian do eventually go back to eating meat.


In college, I saw a film about the sad plight of calves in industrialized agriculture. It left me with two things: teary indignation over the sufferings of the calves, plus a fierce longing for veal.


Thing is, it's our nature to love flesh, and when it comes to determining what you actually do, your nature will just about always win out over your opinions.

[Lorien]

66. I know many, many people who dislike the taste of meat

and can't even stand the smell of it cooking. I have even had three friends with children who hated meat. The kids were forced to eat what their parents ate, so eventually they came to accept it. Those children always make me wonder just how "natural" meat eating is.

[NorthernSpy]

82. I've known people who've claimed a formidable distaste for meat...

If I were to follow them around town, what would happen?


Bet I'd eventually catch at least some of them sidling into fried chicken restaurants, burger joints, etc.


But that's late-stage backsliding. It starts with something more like "mistakenly" helping yourself to the wrong dish at an otherwise unappealing buffet. Or tasting something so as not to hurt someone's feelings (you know it would be really terrible to hurt someone's feelings!).


It's like the time I offered caramels to some activist friends who claimed not to consume ANY animal products. ALL of them accepted the candy -- in all its creamy, buttery goodness -- IF no one else was watching...


Interesting.

[Critters2]

151. You have stats to support this,

or do you creepily follow people around to spy on their eating habits?

[NorthernSpy]

166. don't worry, I'm not about to follow people to see whether they're cheating...

Although it would be kind of funny to watch two vegan activists run into each other in a steakhouse.


:blush: Wha...what're you doing here?

:blush: Uh, I dunno -- what're YOU doing here?



The caramel story is a personal experience of mine. It seemed relevant, so I shared it.

[Critters2]

472. I eat at steakhouses when friends aske me to.

They serve baked potatoes and salad. So, if you see me in one, don't assume I'm cheating. Why would I want to put dead flesh in my mouth?

[NorthernSpy]

167. oh, and yeah -- I do have some stats...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2519210&mesg_id=2520175

[MattSh]

384. Why don't vegetarians supply stats for their beliefs

instead of asking for those who disagree with them to supply stats?

Just asking....

[Stuckinthebush]

83. I've seen the same

I have a friend who forces her children to eat meat. Her children hate meat and beg her to help them find alternatives. Nothing doing - eating meat is akin to religion for her. Wild stuff.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

419. Bravo Sierra

I foce my kids to eat veggies does that mean veggies are unnatural?

Meat is part of a balanced diet..

[Stuckinthebush]

439. Myth

No it is not but many people feel good saying that.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

450. Right the diet humans have been eating for thousands of years is unnatural

its the use of refrigeration, fossil fuel based transport, processing (ala soy milk) and things made in the last hundred that are natural..

[Stuckinthebush]

452. Oh I see, so it is natural to pump your body full of animal fat

which we know causes heart disease. Not to mention the hormones that fuck with your system. Real natural.

Not to mention the environmental damage caused by meat production - but of course we don't give a shit about that do we?

People go through all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify their behaviors.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

468. LOL all or nothing with some people..

"which we know causes heart disease. Not to mention the hormones that fuck with your system. Real natural."

And provides B12, and Omega 3 fatty acids. A proper amount of meat does not cause heart disease and I eat Organic meat whenever I can.. BTW believe it or not most hormones in meat denature when you cook them like the stupid "adrenaline argument" its more emotion than science.

--

"Not to mention the environmental damage caused by meat production"

Not a dietary problem, thats an industrial one but go ahead keep saying because we pollute that meat itself is unnatural it really strengthens your argument to link dietary health to regulatory problems..

--

"People go through all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify their behaviors."

And, it seems, to force (or at best, push) their behavior on others..

[Stuckinthebush]

477. Bravo

Great rationalization. You'll enjoy that juicy steak now without any thought as to the consequences. Ignorance is bliss!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

492. lol

I know the consequences, something had to die... It does not bother a lion and it dont bother me.

Whenever my budget allows I buy local and organic..

[superduperfarleft]

454. Once again, soy milk is not a new thing.

Asian cultures have been using it for centuries.

Only as far as Westerners are concerned is it a new thing, and that's usually because Westerners fail to realize that there is a world outside of the USAmerican border.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

469. Ive got no bones with vegans

Id be willing to bet I eat more vegan cooking and soy than at least 85% of Americans..

I have a kid with a dairy allergy and another with an egg allergy so when I make cookies it black strap molasses and olive oil for me...

If a vegan is doing thus because they believe to eat animals is cruel I can respect that though I may disagree.

If a vegan wants to ignore the science of the fact a healthy diet can and should include meat (or at least some rather manufactured supplements) thats on them. You bring up Asian cultures... Lets talk about the Japanese who have low obesity, low heart disease, and a *really* healthy diet which includes meat.

Vegan avengers point at the US and our terrible diet as justification that *all meat* is bad..

[superduperfarleft]

488. What the hell does that have to do with what I posted?

I'm simply pointing out that Asian cultures have eaten soy for centuries, and they're not having thyroid/hormone/gay issues like the anti-soy crowd likes to crow about. I said nothing about nutrition, nor did I comment on the amount of meat these cultures eat.

If you believe that eating meat is nutritious, fine. But don't try to argue that soy is going to OMG KILLZ US ALL!!111 because of something a discredited dentist claimed.

[uppityperson]

490. Oh pshaw and over react much? Try these sites.

No, not a discredited dentist, whatever the hell that means. There are issues related to soy.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=17011
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy.htm

http://www.thyroid.org/patients/brochures/HormoneTreatment_brochure.pdf

Does thyroid hormone interact with any other medications?
Taking other medications can sometimes cause people to need a higher
or lower dose of thyroid hormone. Medications that can potentially cause
people to need a different dose of thyroid hormone include birth control
pills, estrogen, testosterone, some anti-seizure medications (for example
Dilantin and Tegretol), and some medications for depression. Yet other
products can prevent the absorption of the full dose of thyroid hormone.
These include iron, calcium, soy, and some cholesterol-lowering
medications. For all these reasons, it is important for people taking thyroid
hormone to keep their physician up to date

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-soy.html

Based on human case reports and animal research, decreased thyroid hormone and increased thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) levels may occur during the use of soy formula in infants. This includes rare reports of goiter (enlarged neck due to increased thyroid size). Hormone levels have become normal again after stopping soy. Infants fed soy or cow's milk formula may also have higher rates of atopic eczema than infants who are breast-fed.

Acute migraine headache has been reported with the use of a soy isoflavone product. Based on animal research, damage to the pancreas may theoretically occur from regularly eating raw soybeans or soy flour/protein powder made from raw, unroasted, or unfermented beans.

The use of soy is often discouraged in patients with hormone-sensitive malignancies such as breast, ovarian, or uterine cancer, due to concerns about possible estrogen-like effects (which theoretically may stimulate tumor growth). Other hormone-sensitive conditions such as endometriosis may also theoretically be worsened. In laboratory studies, it is not clear if isoflavones stimulate or block the effects of estrogen, or both (acting as a "receptor agonist/antagonist"). Until additional research is available, patients with these conditions should be cautious and speak with a qualified healthcare practitioner before starting use.

It is not known if soy or soy isoflavones share the same side effects as estrogens, such as increased risk of blood clots. Preliminary studies suggest that soy isoflavones, unlike estrogens, do not cause the lining of the uterus (endometrium) to build up.

There has been a case report of vitamin D deficiency rickets in an infant nursed with soybean milk (not specifically designed for infants). Patients should consult a qualified healthcare practitioner for current breastfeeding recommendations, use formulas with adequate nutritional value.

http://www.magicfoundation.org/www/docs/114.125/congenital_hypothyroidism_hypothyroid.html

Please be aware that L-thyroxine should not be mixed with Soy formula as this product interferes with absorption.

[superduperfarleft]

496. Um, where did I suggest that soy formula is a good replacement for breast milk?

Most of your links refer to infants ingesting soy as a replacement for breast milk. And since I'm not sure where I claimed to be an expert of infant nutrition, I'm still wondering why you and the other poster keep having arguments that I never started.

(And you're first link not only lists soy as interacting with thyroid medications, but also iron and calcium. Do you think thyroid patients should avoid those nutrients as well?)

I was saying was that Asian cultures have relied on soy (and since a large majority of the world's adults cease to produce lactase once they hit a certain age, I assumed we were talking about adults anyway when talking about milk replacements) for centuries and have not suffered the ill health effects that the whackjobs at the Weston A Price Foundation claim, that's all. There's plenty to argue with in regards to the OP without resorting to scare-tactics about teh evil soybean.

[uppityperson]

540. Who is claiming/arguing you are a ninfant nutrition expert?

Speaking of having arguments that no one started. Giving facts about medicine/soy interactions is not scare-tacticing, but giving information. I guess you must find facts scary things since you continue to over react to them rather than taking them for the information they are ("teh evil soybean" and "soy is going to OMG KILLZ US ALL!!111 because of something a discredited dentist claimed." and "thyroid/hormone/gay issues like the anti-soy crowd likes to crow about" for example).

Done with you, prefer to have discussions with open minded people who don't over react, jump to a conclusion and attack. Merry christmas.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

493. Ok maybe I missed the context..

Because I said nothing about soy being the scourge of masculinity... Maybe if youre going to piss and moan about out of context post you should not make them..

[superduperfarleft]

495. No, you gave me an upchuck of a post that was arguing with something I never said.

And as far as "pissing and moaning," don't blame me that you spent the entire time reading my posts thinking about what you were going to say next, as opposed to actually comprehending what I was saying.

[Marrah_G]

409. But by the same token I know kids who have a FIT over eating veggies

My kids have always loved both. I knew one kid who for a couple years was refusing to eat anything but peanut butter and jelly and chocolate milk ( can you imagine the fun at dinner time?.

[Wizard777]

211. There us no such thing as a true vegitarian. This is why.

You cannot live without Vitamin B12. They only source of B12 is MEAT. Without B-12 you go insane and die. So any "vegitarian" that is not insane or dead is lying. They are eating meat (B12) in the form of a vitamin supplement. So there is no such thing as a true 100% meat free "vegitarian."

[superduperfarleft]

222. It's spelled "vegetarian."

And bacteria produces b12, not the meat itself, and since bacteria are not members of the animal kingdom, I think most vegans are pretty safe.

I'd recommend Biology 101, but since you're having enough trouble even spelling "vegetarian" right, I'd be more inclined to recommend a dictionary.

[flvegan]

225. !!!

I think I'm going into B12 deficiency induced shock. Avenge my death.

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[LeftyMom]

451. B12 comes from bacterial action.

I most certainly do not take a meat-derived supplement (and I very rarely remember to take a plant based one,) I surely don't eat meat (or any other animal product,) and enough DUers have met me that I think I can get somebody to vouch for the fact that I'm not posting from beyond the grave.

This is a fancy way of saying that you have no clue what you're talking about. But then again, I don't take dietary advice from people who can't even spell the word vegetarian.

[defendandprotect]

303. Funny . . . I thought the "dirty little secret" was 17% fecal matter on animal carcasses ---

which is permitted by our USDA ---

[Rowdyboy]

67. Vegetarians remind me a lot of fundamentalist Christians....they're RIGHT and you're WRONG....

They have the only possible answer and you're just too stupid/backward to get it.

I respect the rights of both vegetarians and fundy Christians. Everyone should be allowed to eat/worship whatever thay want in peace with no social stigma. Eat all the tofurkey you want and sing praise to Jebus! For my mental health, I try to stay as far away as possible from cult movements that seek to dictate my behavior or eating habits.

[superduperfarleft]

73. So close!

All we need is a hitler comment and I win Rationalization Bingo!

[Stuckinthebush]

80. Hitler was a vegan!

That damn vegan, Hitler! Damn him!

[superduperfarleft]

81. Stalin was an atheist!!!

Oh wait, wrong thread. ;)

[Kolesar]

457. Oh, yeah, well I'll tell you

...you made me laugh!
Welcome to our forum. :rofl:

[ThePowerofWill]

88. Hitler was a vegetarian.

i don't think he was a Vegan, but pretty sure he was a vegetarian. He was an evil man who made a dietary choice, no more no less. Same with anyone else who wants to be, or is a vegetarian. It's a choice one makes, and it makes you no better, or no worse than anyone else.

[superduperfarleft]

90. No he wasn't.

It was advertised that he was, but one of his favorite things to eat was pheasant. Last I checked, pheasant is meat.

But you're right, it's completely irrelevant. That's why I don't know whether to laugh or cry when people bring it up as if it proves anything.

[ThePowerofWill]

97. He may have done some backsliding.

However he did claim to be vegetarian, and seemed to express a great deal of interest in it. Here are some quotes from Hitler on the subject.


One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
- Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece of meat, he'll quickly choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct speaking."
- Adolf Hitler. December 28, 1941. Section 81, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks' mutton with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat."
- Adolf Hitler. January 12, 1942. Section 105, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used to drink four pots of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. … When I became a vegetarian, a mouthful of water was enough."
- Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an apple, or a cake, it's never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral instinct there."
- Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an extraordinary antipathy young children have to meat."
- Adolf Hitler. April 25, 1942. Section 198, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to perspire much less, and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My thirst, too, decreased considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I required. Vegetarian diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
- Adolf Hitler. July 8, 1942. Section 256, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a vegetarian."
- Adolf Hitler. August 20, 1942. Section 293, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

Source: HITLER'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books. Available at Amazon and at Barnes And Noble

[superduperfarleft]

102. Eh. I've heard differently.

His regime also brutally oppressed vegetarian groups in the early years of his power.

Not sure why we're arguing this anyway, since my entire point was that Hitler's vegetarianism or lack thereof is completely irrelevant...

[yewberry]

103. Claims meant to portray himself as some kind of ascetic.

Squab and sausage ain't vegetarian, no matter what anyone claims.

[ThePowerofWill]

110. The funny thing is, and this goes along with the poster above....

He said these things in private. In public he did seem to suppress vegetarianism. Odd ball Hitler was for sure.

[fascisthunter]

550. The Right Wing Will Have to Find another Slam against Vegetarians

[Stuckinthebush]

108. Pssst...

I was just kidding. Hitler has no relevence here.

[ThePowerofWill]

112. I agree Hitler has no place in the argument.

However being he atleast claimed to be one he will be forever used as a smear. Hitler also saw himself as an artist, that does not make being an artist bad.

[Critters2]

155. No he wasn't. this is a common stated myth, or lie,

depending on your pov. Hitler never gave up meat altogether. His head chef reported that he ate sausage regularly, and small game birds. Goebbels made up the vegetarian myth to make Hitler look pure and strong and endowed with self-control. But it was just propaganda.

In what other areas do you go around quoting Goebbels?

[Stuckinthebush]

197. Oh Jesus Christ!

It was a fucking joke! I was playing with the poster who was kidding around about bingo.

[Critters2]

470. Sorry, You have no idea how often people really throw that at us.nt

[Stuckinthebush]

521. It's cool

I'm one of you. This entire thread is killing me. I am amazed at the amount of vitriol spewed by non-vegetarians. Amazing.

[yewberry]

106. Surely you mean *some* vegetarians, right?

Otherwise that's a pretty goddamned nasty thing to say about a bunch of people you've never met.

[Rowdyboy]

196. Absolutely...half the guests at my last small party were vegetarian.....

The food included plenty of choices for everyone. I try very hard to eat healthily, with red meats in moderation and respect those who abstain. I just don't like being preached to. Give me a good veg recipe and I'll try it and maybe add it to my repertoire. I just find moralizing of any sort irritating.

"Food and diet police" are a real sore spot with me, not vegetarians

[Name removed]

241. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

304. That looks like confirmation of my "superiority" observation . . .

While proclaiming no "social stigma" you suggest that vegetarianism is a "cult movement" ---
that "seeks to dictate your behavior or eating habits."

All that suggests a few blind spots . . .

but let's start with the major point of this thread ---

Do you care about saving the planet, do you care about pollution of the planet ---

and do you understand the role that animal-exploitation plays in complicating both of those problems?


PLUS, do you understand the negative impact of animal-eating on your own life?

[mwb970]

524. I was married to a food Nazi once. Once.

It was right after college. She was OK for awhile but then started forcing me to eat tofu for dinner almost every night. "I'll have an order of sprouts and a plate of the mashed yeast." Yuck. Not for me!

She began attending some kind of services at an ashram on campus, coming home in a white robe and chanting, etc., before whipping up some more tofu. She established a relationship with a female "guru" there and unquestioningly did everything this woman told her to. She hassled me about my fondness for meat every day.

We divorced.

[ThePowerofWill]

74. Thats all utter (or udder) bullshit, or a lot of it at any rate.

#1: That has some validity, but one can do it small scale on largely waste. My pigs eat slop, or scrap food. Which would have been wasted anyway. No energy needed except the labor to feed them and slaughter them, all done by hand. Same with rabbits, they get limited grain, and a lot of what would be wasted vegetable matter, or what i gather by hand. You could do the same with chickens.

#2: Again you won't see these problems if you raise a small bit of your own. Rabbits can be raised in hutches even on small properties, and chickens too.

#3:Ha! I don't care about a pigs feelings, or a chicken, etc. They are really unnatural human creations genetically modified from wild stock through human gene selection. Bred to be dumb, and docile as possible. How long do you thing a flock of tame turkeys, or cows would last in a real world wild environment? These thing have been raised, and selected to be food. If not for us using them as food they would not exist as they do today. Cow's would still be aurach's, chickens would still be jungle fowl, etc.

#4:Not really, as noted my meat is raised almost cost free.

#5: Do you not believe in science? This is the biggest load of all of it. Science tells us meat is and has been an integral part of hominid diet for millions of yrs. In fact the common belief among anthropologists is that it was early hominids eating meat helped us evolve the larger brain. Also lets not forget the many people who's diets are almost completely meat based like say the Inuit. Folks like the Inuit have a hard time adjusting to a vegetarian diet. Let's also not forget our gastrointerology. Our intestines, and digestive system bear out our meat eating nature.

#6:Bull crap, depends on what you are consuming. Such blanket statements serve no one well.

#7:Again much of my meat is raised using waste.

#8:For many of us soy sucks. How about you eat your soy, i'll stick with my meat.


What you posted is crap. Why not post something more well thought out and credible? Ya know not so much hyperbole. I think a more level headed approach would serve you better. Postings like the one above tend to turn folks off.

*edit for typo

[superduperfarleft]

79. "I don't care about a pigs feelings, or a chicken, etc"

And yet we're supposed to believe that food animals aren't treated cruelly. :eyes:

[ThePowerofWill]

84. I could care less how they are treated.

They are being raised to die and be eaten. I see no need to pamper them in the mean time. Also i never claimed that animals are not being treated cruelly. One may surmise just being born to be eaten is cruel.

Who's' to say plants don't have feelings, or some other life force they wish not to lose? What makes one living thing ok to kill and not another?

[superduperfarleft]

86. Stab a pig and a plant with a fork.

Tell me which one exhibits the ability to feel pain.

And I'll do my omni friends a favor (as well as the other posters on this thread) and not try to claim that your disgusting attitude is common among meat-eaters.

[ThePowerofWill]

89. Maybe plants show pain in other ways.

I'm glad you find me disgusting.....it turns me on.

[superduperfarleft]

92. And if my grandmother had balls

she'd be my grandfather.

Did you come here from Digg or something?

[ThePowerofWill]

107. I don't care about your grandmothers balls.

The point is there are many people feel plants may have some type of feelings. There have been scientific experiments done on plants to see if the react to music and environmental controls.

This world is full of mystery, lots of things going on that we don't understand. While i personally doubt plants have feeling, i am open to the idea the may in some way we humans can't understand. who's to say how a plants screams in pain. They don't have vocal chords, or mouths.

I just find it odd it's ok to kill one living thing for food, and not another.

[superduperfarleft]

125. Plants have no CNS.

There's also absolutely no evolutionary advantage for plants to evolve pain receptors as we know them. I'm sure they are "aware" when damage is inflicted upon them, but trying to ascribe human/animal-like characteristics (they feel pain, they cry when their baby plants leave the seed, etc.) is woo-woo bullshit and not the least bit scientific. It's usually nothing more than an interpretation by an omnivore looking to deflect attention from his or her diet with the "plants feel pain" argument.

As I've said numerous times, a vegan diet is not about eliminating harm, but reducing it. If it's clear that animals feel pain and show the characteristics of sentience, why not avoid eating them if we're able to?

But as you already said, you don't care how much pain they feel, this seems to be a pretty pointless subthread.

[ThePowerofWill]

127. Nope.

My point was to say it's ok to kill one living thing, and not another is hypocritical no matter how you try to rationalize it. Plants are alive, and even you admit they could be aware they are being harmed, or in danger. Just because their biological function differ from our on so many levels does not mean that awareness could bring fear, pain, etc.

A plant is alive like an animal. Also the largest portion of the plants, and fruits we eat would not exist in their present forms if we had not nurtured. and selected them for the purpose of food. Both a closer than they are apart.

[superduperfarleft]

135. I put "aware" in quotes for a reason. n/t

[Critters2]

156. Plants don't have central nervous systems,

which are the mechanism through which sensations are carried from one cell to another. So, no, plants don't have feelings. And even if they did, meat eaters kill more plants than veg*ns. It takes 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef. Veg*ns are eating those grains without forcing them through a cow first. For veg*ns, one pound of grain = one pound of food. For meat eaters, 16 punds of grain=one pound of food.

So, even if you were concerned about the feelings of plants--and you obviously aren't--you'd stop eating meat.

[Annces]

399. May you get the same in return n/t

[defendandprotect]

305. It's the major point which has to be denied . . .violence in animal-eating!

[GoneOffShore]

114. I'll buy meat from you, but not from Hatfield.

There are a lot of people who really don't know where their food comes from or who produces it.

Thanks for the post.

And welcome to DU.

[Critters2]

157. You mean Smithfield? nt

[GoneOffShore]

173. Hatfield here in Philly.

[alfredo]

85. Chimpanzees eat meat. Humans eat a lot of insects.

Red meat was probably the exception for most of our history. Most likely red meat was obtained (stolen) from fresh kills as much as from hunting. It's much easier to dig up grubs, and they are packed with protein. Let's face it, during the dry season when there isn't much in the way of vegetable matter to eat, a hand full of grasshoppers and spiders will have to do.

I'm not a big advocate for meat. If my wife wasn't a meat eater, I would be a vegetarian as I was before I got married.

If you do eat meat, cut back, eat clean meats. Don't make it the focus, make it just one of the ingredients, a flavoring agent.


Predatory Chimpanzees

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html

After three decades of research on the hunting behavior of chimpanzees at Gombe, we already know a great deal about their predatory patterns. We know that although chimpanzees have been recorded to eat more than 35 types of vertebrate animals (Uehara 1997), the most important vertebrate prey species in their diet is the red colobus monkey

[rAVES]

94. 1 reason to eat meat:

Get it into ya lads!

[defendandprotect]

306. What if someone put part of your body on a grill?

Try a portobello mushroom --- slice thinly --- saute it in a bit of olive oil ---
have it on crusty Italian bread ---

[Hippo_Tron]

377. Frankly it wouldn't bother me in the least bit since I'd already be dead

[cherokeeprogressive]

478. Enjoy. Meanwhile I'll feast on succulent Honeybaked Ham and med. rare Prime Rib.

mmmmmmmm.

[madeline_con]

95. "Human beings are the only primates that eat meat. "

Chimps hunt and eat monkeys.


Does the 2500 gallons of water produce ONE pound of ground beef, or the whole animal, some of which is made into ground beef?

"There have been reports of heads cut off..."

What, in your opinion, would be quicker and more humane?

[pathansen]

207. As I said before, this was an error. However, . . .

meat is still hard to digest and our teeth would have a hard time cutting the meat with knives.
What about stunning the animal so that it is unconscious before its dumped into boiling water or has its head cut off?

[defendandprotect]

308. How about leaving the animals to live in peace ---

The "stunning" techniques are supposed to be in play ---
they don't always work ---

[AlCzervik]

101. i'm going to try a vegetarian diet in January, i don't think i can go vegan but i

do want to try and so does my kid, i want to support her and she doesn't want to eat meat anymore. Who knows, if it works out maybe we'll go vegan.

[flvegan]

109. You should visit the DU Veg Forum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=231

Recipes, help and advice. We love company!

Congrats to you and your kid. Are you going to phase meat out or go, uh..."cold turkey"?

[AlCzervik]

115. i will be for sure. My daughter is down to having chicken about 2 times a week

and she's off red meat all together, i was never a big fan of red meat but i do like chicken and honestly--bacon, ok i cannot express in words my love of bacon so thats going to be tough. I really need to do this for my own health, i think i told you i lost about 85 pounds and so far i've kept it off but my blood pressure isn't where i think it should be and i'd like to lose another 15 pounds, and my daughter's weight is fine but she'd like to eat better and of course she loves animals and has been going through a guilt phase about eating them.

hopefully i won't bug the shit of you all but i will be needing some help.

[flvegan]

118. Wow, big steps already.

I think you'll notice some big changes in a month or two, so long as nutrition is your first priority.

Please be sure you come say hi in the Forum. Lots of great folks there.

[defendandprotect]

309. I didn't think I'd make Vegan either, but it happened --- !!!

and I love it ---

I have a problem still from time to time with eating stuff I really don't want ---

I love cole slaw --- and there's only one way to have it with some kind of mayo or
light creamy dressing ---

However, the idea of raw egg in it, gets me to stop eating it quickly --- !!!

and still time after time, I'll buy some!!

There's veggie mayo but I can't stand the look of it ---

[dysfunctional press]

111. 1 critical reason for eating meat- it tastes so fucking good.

i enjoy sitting atop the food chain as an omnivore- i eat animals, animal products, plants, and plant products.

and it's ALL good.

i'm making two legs of lamb for christmas dinner- one in the oven, and one on the grill- i can't wait to see which one is more tasty.

[matcom]

113. EATING MEAT IS ANTI-GAY!!

[supernova]

119. LOL!

I'm going shopping! :rofl: :P

[supernova]

117. I'm an omnivore who eats well

By that I mean sometimes I eat meat, sometimes I don't. I eat whole meat of all kinds, red meat less than 1x/month, fish and shellfish, low GI veggies and fruits, nuts and sometimes legumes. I eat hamburgers and hot dogs, sausages and such maybe once or twice a year.

I eat what my body tells me it needs at any given meal. I also have food sensitivities, so some of the suggestion in the OP don't work for me. I don't eat milk products, wheat or other grains, nor soy. They all irritate my system, making me feel tired, irritable, and bloated, and other not so nice symptoms too. If I'm really jonesing for baked goods, I eat gluten free products. Notice that cuts out a lot of vegetarian alternative protein sources.

I think "diet" is very individual and quite possibly tied to where ever your hunter/gather ancestors were living and what they were eating. That is probably our healthiest diet.

1) I solve that problem by choosing organic meats. I haven't bought meat from a chain grocery store in years. Best of all no antibiotics or hormones.

2) You can get E. Coli from mishandled veggies too. And botulism from improperly canned stuff is always a possibility.

3) To the extent they have limited brain capacity, that's true. But we all participate in this dog eat dog world in one way or another. You could argue the chicken in the yard is playing God with the earthworms and grubs she eats.

4) I'm dubious of the "if the demand were greater, it would be cheaper" argument. While I love shopping there, there's a reason we call it "Whole Paycheck." I do agree that having your own garden is certainly cheaper. Farmers markets in season are pretty affordable too. Mostly because you can pay the farmer directly and eliminate all the middle men.

5) As has been noted above, we are not the only primates who eat meat.

6) Like I said, I don't eat hamburgers. I eat a lot of poultry and fish, sometimes pork and rarely beef. And all organic and whole. I never buy ground beef.

7) I think there are probably better ways to feed food animals, natural grazing on land that is too poor to farm is one way.

8) If you are hypothyroid, which I suspect I am, eating lots of soy can interfere with thyroid function. edit: http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/04thyroid.htm

All in all, I think I do well with what I have to work with. And I sleep peacefully at night.

[Feron]

120. Oh boy a PETA factsheet...

While I do think that factory farming needs a complete overhaul, I also am realistic enough to know that trying to turn the world veg will not solve the problem. Time and effort would be better spent on lobbying Congress to pass stricter animal welfare laws with sufficient enforcement. That's something both plant and animals eaters can agree on.

And just as modern medicine is unnatural, there is no such thing as a natural diet. This morning I had waffles with a glass of soy milk for breakfast. Try finding that in nature! And purely vegan diets lack vitamin B12. That's why vegan/vegetarian foods are fortified with the vitamin.

It's perfectly acceptable to be a vegetarian/vegan for ethical, health, and/or environmental reasons. But it isn't a natural diet.

Nor is a plant exclusive diet any safer. Take E. Coli tainted spinach for example.

I couldn't care less about another person's personal dietary preference, but any diet is generally okay as long as it is nutritious with sufficient calories. Personally I went veg for three months and it's not for me. Obviously mileage varies.

In a nutshell, often times people with good intentions try to make perfect the enemy of the good.

[China_cat]

134. I don't understand the people who will question everything

that they see and hear and want citations about everything but when peta says anything it's gospel and don't dare question anything they say.

[defendandprotect]

311. Animal-exploitation will go the way of our other problems if we all live long enough ---

however, Global Warming is a huge threat to our survival ---
and as the thread is trying to point out, if it were a choice between having
our planet and surviving and eating-animals, which would you choose?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

527. Factory farms producing grain

will pollute just as much as farms that produce meat..

[Matariki]

123. Effects of meat on cognitive ability - Kenya study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=14672297&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google

Please note that the participants in this study ate only 2 OUNCES of meat.

>>

Scientists in Kenya have found that animal source foods, especially meat products, are consumed by less than 14 percent of children, and usually in small amounts, less than 17 grams (about 1 tablespoon) per day. In a two-year study carried out in a rural area, children received a small portion of either meat, milk or vegetable oil to supplement their usual corn- or bean-based lunches. Children in all three groups gained weight and increased their upper-arm muscle mass compared to classmates who received no supplements. But the children who received the meat supplement also performed significantly better than all the groups on a test of problem-solving ability and fluid intelligence. Although the portion of meat was only 2 ounces per day, it provided 106 percent of a child’s B12 requirement, 68 percent of the zinc requirement and 26 percent of the iron--all nutrients critical to brain function.

[yewberry]

128. Um, we're talking about people with very poor nutrition.

Adding food to the diets of starving people will always improve their cognitive and general health.

The control group was malnourished, and remained that way. How ethically unique.

Also, notice that no group had a supplement of high quality/high protein plant-sourced foods.

[Matariki]

148. You seem to have misread, or misinterpreted the information in the article

Three of the four groups that received supplements (meat, milk, or vegetable oil) *did* gain weight and muscle mass. But the group that had meat added to their diet outperformed the other three groups in cognitive tests.

Point out where the article says the children were malnourished.

The diet they already were eating was corn and bean based. I'm pretty certain that beans are considered a high protein plant source food.

----

BTW, the facts of this study don't mean that a person should rush out and eat pounds of hamburger or can't be healthy on a vegan diet with supplements.

on edit: it would have been interesting if they added a group that received B-12, zinc and iron supplements and tested that against the other groups.

[mainer]

187. It also raises question: did meat eating boost human intelligence

What caused the sudden increase in human cognitive abilities eons ago? Was it the fact that humans left the tropics (where they could live on a purely vegetarian diet) and moved north, where meat eating was a necessity for survival? Did that cause a sudden burst in intellectual ability that led to modern man?

[NashVegas]

515. It Certainly Involved More Problem-Solving Skills

Such as, how to get the meat without being injured, yourself.

[yewberry]

204. No, I didn't.

The Kenya study isn't exactly breaking news.

The population was malnourished to begin with (particularly iron & B-12 deficiencies and anemia), and the researchers knew it. I'll look up citations if you want, but I'm heading out (groan) to the grocery store. Here's one (Warning--pdf: jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/133/11/3941S.pdf )

Yes, all groups (except the control) improved. Adding food to an inadequate diet will do that.

I can't help but imagine what would happen if someone proposed a similar study among malnourished children in the US. I don't think it would fly here, but I guess people will overlook experimenting on children as long as they're African.

Bonus:
The study was "partially supported" by the Cattlemen's Association.

[Matariki]

235. Good luck at the grocery store - I just got back and it was a madhouse..

I can't help but think you are taking odd swipes at this because the facts don't support what you want them to support. Saying things like 'experimenting on African children' is a diversionary tactic at best.

Do you think it's possible there were deficiencies in iron, B-12 and suffering from anemia precisely because of a lack of any meat in their diets? Their diet, without the supplements, consisted mainly of plant protein (corn and beans). It's clear from the study that it wasn't simply an issue of caloric intake.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the finding that the group that ate some meat did the best of *all* the groups in the cognitive tests. There is no contention that all three groups who received supplements faired better overall than the group that didn't.

I've read about this study in a number of reputable places and have not once read that it was 'partially supported' by the Cattlemen's Association. Do you have any reliable links backing that up?

The scientists who conducted the study and their affiliations are listed in this link:

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/137/4/1119

Meat Supplementation Improves Growth, Cognitive, and Behavioral Outcomes in Kenyan Children

A randomized, controlled school feeding study was conducted in rural Embu District, Kenya to test for a causal link between animal-source food intake and changes in micronutrient nutrition and growth, cognitive, and behavioral outcomes. Twelve primary schools were randomly assigned to 1 of 4 groups. Children in Standard I classes received the local plant-based dish githeri as a midmorning school snack supplemented with meat, milk, or fat added to equalize energy content in all feedings. The Control children received no feedings but participated in data collection. Main outcome measures assessed at baseline and longitudinally were 24-h food intake recall, anthropometry, cognitive function, physical activity, and behaviors during school free play. For cognitive function, the Meat group showed the steepest rate of increase on Raven's Progressive Matrices scores and in zone-wide school end-term total and arithmetic test scores. The Plain githeri and Meat groups performed better over time than the Milk and Control groups (P < 0.02–0.03) on arithmetic tests. The Meat group showed the greatest increase in percentage time in high levels of physical activity and in initiative and leadership behaviors compared with all other groups. For growth, in the Milk group only younger and stunted children showed a greater rate of gain in height. The Meat group showed near doubling of upper midarm muscle area, and the Milk group a smaller degree of increase. This is the first randomized, controlled feeding study to examine the effect of meat- vs. milk- vs. plant-based snacks on functional outcomes in children.

[yewberry]

246. I had to go to two stores.

The first was out of mushrooms and rosemary. Ggggggggaaa.


The pdf that I referred to in my post is the full-text version of the abstract you have linked. In it is the footnote that the Cattlemen's Ass'n supported the study.

What you seem to see as "odd swipes" is my reaction to what I think is a highly ethically questionable study. Regardless of what their questions were about meat to diet, the researchers in the Kenya study forced more than 100 children to stay on what they knew was an inadequate diet for two years. In the US, starving children for the purposes of research is illegal.


Then, after the research started to come out, this was what we heard.


I'm not sure what you mean by saying that the facts don't support what I want them to support. I don't dispute that the children were given three different supplements (and some, none) and that the group that was given meat made the most significant gains. What's reality, though, is that the only supplements were meat, milk, or oil; that simply doesn't warrant the conclusion that was drawn. Suppose they'd included other kinds of supplements (vegemite, marmite, tofu, nuts & seeds, etc), or even better, investigated locally available foods that might improve the health of the population. I doubt that would have gotten the results they went into the study knowing they'd get.

If M&M/Mars or Pom had done this study, would they be able to claim that their products led to greater cognitive development and health improvement than a control group? Yep, they sure would. The fact is that adding food to a substandard diet is likely to have a good result.

[Matariki]

310. My sympathies - after *one* store I felt like having a good cry.

Wall to wall shopping carts and everyone completely dumbstruck by the chaos. Well, the store gave everyone in line chocolate chip cookies, so that was a small consolation ;-)

Anyway, back to our 'serious' discussion on human consumption.

I really think you are mischaracterizing some things. First, as I read the article, children from 12 schools were given a snack during the day, not forced into a 2 year starvation regimen. How did you arrive at that? Second, I think you are mischaracterising the involvement of the Cattlemen's Association in an attempt to discredit facts you don't like. There is a considerable difference in a business donating money to an organization such as UCLA or the Honolulu Cancer Research Center and said organization driving the results of a study. If indeed they actual *did* donate any money. You are going to have to point me to that footnote you refer to, because I don't see it anywhere.

The students were given a snack of githeri, a common Kenyan dish consisting of corn and beans - some kids getting an added supplement of meat, milk or vegetable oil, and some just plain githeri. Each got an equivalent amount of calories. Wouldn't you consider corn and beans to be a good vegetarian source of protein?

I don't agree at all with that guy who tried to use this study as evidence that a vegan diet is 'dangerous'. In fact, one of the founders of the study responded by saying a vegan or vegetarian diet would be healthier than the typical American or UK diets. What it does indicate though, in my opinion, is that a small amount of animal protein is beneficial. Emphasis on SMALL amount. And if not animal protein, some sort of equivalent supplement.

[defendandprotect]

313. If true, this may be an advantage which shouldn't be taken and which does harm

in the long run --- ???

[mainer]

407. so it's better to be stupid and vegetarian?

Why the heck wouldn't we want children to be at their intellectual best -- just so they can stay vegetarians?

[NorthernSpy]

421. those children in Kenya are worth more than cows...

The health and development of those children matters more to me than the cows' interest in not becoming beef to feed them.



There.

[Marrah_G]

461. Wow. I have to say that was one of the most disturbing posts I have read in a long time.

[Vinca]

124. I agree with many points in this post, but from a consumer's standpoint,

fresh fruits and vegetables are expensive. (Actually, from a gardener's point of view they aren't cheap, either, when you consider the time you put in.) As for soy, I like the stuff but I'm afraid to eat it.http://www.internationalhealth.net/TheDarkSideofSoy.html

[defendandprotect]

315. What if an animal/dairy based diet kills you ? How expensive is that?

I think vegetables are much cheaper than eating animals --- ?????

And, yes, fruit is expensive and I think there is insufficient fruit in the American diet ---

and nuts and seeds ---

but I think it is still more affordable than animal eating --- ????

And, it improves your health ---

whereas developing hypertension, heart disease, cancers are costly and deadly.

[Vinca]

405. I'm not pimping meat, but a person has to eat something.

As for the part about improving your health, did you know about aflatoxins in peanuts? Rancid oils in nuts (very common) turning into transfatty acid? And then, of course, there are the problems with soy. Everything you put in your mouth these days is a risk. You don't know sometimes if your veggies have come from Mexico and have been treated with DDT (who honestly believes the natural foods store). And what about the "organic" vegetables from China? I wouldn't touch them if I was starving. Bottom line, the mortality rate in the United States is 100% whether you eat meat or not.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

422. What a crock!

"whereas developing hypertension, heart disease, cancers are costly and deadly."

As an omnivore I have none of the above... Eating meat does not cause those things eating too much meat and not enough other things (poultry, fish, veggies and fruit) cause them.

[smoogatz]

126. Right on schedule.

It's been what, a week or so since the last obligatory "meat is the root of all evil" thread? Where's the "Aw Jeez" guy when we need him?

[jgraz]

136. How many steaks is one child worth?

If you're really concerned about our impact on the environment, there's really only one solution: don't reproduce. I don't have kids and don't ever plan on having kids. That's a helluva lot bigger effect than my one local, organic, grass-fed rib-eye each month.

[pathansen]

147. Yes, I don't have kids either

And I agree that this also helps to save the planet and the environment.

[superduperfarleft]

152. I agree.

Between my childlessness and my veganism, I've pretty much pwn3d Al Gore.

[defendandprotect]

317. However, for those already here . . . animal-based diets are harmful for the planet ---

[uppityperson]

319. "animal based"? Most of us omnivores don't base our diet on animals.

Most of us eat much more non-animal than animal. Being omnivores and all.

[defendandprotect]

360. The levels of illnesses which stem from animal-based diets seem to suggest

a very high level of animal-based diets ---

including problems we've had with females having a lack of folate in their diets which has led to neural cord disorders in newborns --- SPINA BIFIDA, FOR ONE -- and a 40% connection to Down's Syndrome in newborns.

Obesity, heart disease, hypertension, cancers, breast cancers, cataracts, diabetes ---
these are all connected to animal/dairy diets ---

[mainer]

138. Vegetarians may actually contribute more to global warming

Think of all those vegetables and fruits being transported to northern climates. If people in northern states would just eat local game, they'd be much greener than the family that insists on eating fresh veggies through the winter.

[jgraz]

144. The key is just to educate yourself about what you eat

If that leads you to vegetarianism, fine. My choice is to eat nothing but local, organic meat and produce. I'm lucky enough to live in an area where I can get almost all of my food within a 100 mile radius. Other people may have a tougher time with this.

[Critters2]

160. I'm veg*n and I eat seasonally.

I dry locally-grown fruits and veggies during the summer, and eat them in the winter. I also eat LOTS of grains and beans which can easily be stored all winter. And I still don't eat animals.

[yewberry]

206. Completely unsupported speculation.

Add in all of the fuel used to transport animal feed around and get back to me.

[mainer]

406. No feed need be transported -- wild game is local.

Not to mention organic and free-range!
I live in an area teeming with deer, wild turkeys, and other game. I'm not a hunter myself, but I see perfectly well that it's a natural and age-old means of feeding oneself.

[defendandprotect]

320. Yeah . . . having everyone out shooting animals would help us all --- !!!

We can grow fruits and vegetables locally --- in good weather.

And, farming is moving to different ground levels --- and hot houses ---

[LostinVA]

140. I'm not a vegetarian, and I agree with alot of this

I wish I COULD handle being a veg head, although I am married to one (well, she's a pecskie).

The biggie, for me, is the environmental angle.

However, I think humans are "meant" to be omnivores, although we don't have to be. And, for ME, I see nothing "unethical" about raising and slaughtering livestock, IF the humans are treated humanely in both life and death. Even the pesckie agrees with me!

[defendandprotect]

321. Was this a mistake: "IF the humans are treated humanely in both life and death."

Did you mean humans or animals?

Were you ever aware of the opinion of St. Frances that animals have spirits ---

and have you ever experienced a sense of this with animals?


What's a "pesckie" --- ???

[LostinVA]

418. Personally -- I can't hardly eat human veal, anymore

The meat on most kids these days is too fatty.

Raised Catholic and former CCD teacher here, so I'm pretty familiar with St. Francis. I believe that all sentient things have souls, and non-human animals are included in that. My dog and cats definitely have souls. I still think humans are omnivores, though.

"Pesckie" is my word for pescetarian. The woman eats fish, but no other meat. She's of the opinion that you shouldn't eat meat, unless you can kill it yourself. She's go fishing, kill, clean her catch, so she'll eat fish. She says she couldn't do that to other animals.

[uppityperson]

141. Point by point

1.ENVIRONMENTAL REASONS I agree with some of this, but commercial farming causes a whole lot of environmental damage also. Going back to smaller organic individual owned farms vs Big Ag farms would help. Using less non-organic would help, pesticides cause a whole lot of damage as does mega-farming and having seed regulated. How much energy does it take to plow fields, spray fields, move veggies all around the world? A bunch.

2. HEALTH REASONS – Some veggie food has had issues with e.coli and other things like this. Processed foods, even veg ones, are treated with chemicals, preservatives, additives, dyes, etc. Issue is with processing. Many vegs, unless organic, are loaded with pesticides, coated with wax, etc. and many mass produced veggies have much less nutritional value than homegrown/small farmed.

3. ETHICAL REASONS - I can see this as a reason, esp against mega animal lots. Raise your own, give it a good life, bless it, kill it, eat it.

4. LESS EXPENSE – Possibly cheaper to raise veggies, again looking at mega vs individual/smaller groupings.

5. A CARNIVOROUS DIET IS UNNATURAL - Human beings are not the only primates that eat meat. Our teeth are not canine, they are omnivorish. Our digestive systems support digesting meat along with veggies since we are omnivores, with an omnivore gut.

6. IMPURE FOOD – Compare hot dogs with non-organic soy and tell me which is impure. Tell me soy "mock food" is natural and I'll laugh.

7. WASTEFUL - Raise your food locally.

8. THE SOY ALTERNATIVE – Soy cannot be eaten by some people due to allergies and/or hormone problems such as thyroid and female hormones. Soy is not a cure all, heal all.

[defendandprotect]

327. No one has to eat soy to be a veggie ---

Time is running out on the planet --- on our species ---

We have severe overpopulation --- exploitation of animals is a huge problem increasing
pollution and damaging waterways, rivers, streams, underground water, etc.

The focus on pesticides began long ago --- in the 1950's with Rachel Carson --- and we didn't
progress at all on that issue; in fact, today we're surrounded in every way by petroleum-based
products and only oil companies have benefitted from that.

The current concept of farming --- which is to rip up everything in wide acreage is not necessarily
the way farming has to be envisioned. In fact, it's a method which has cost us much of our top soil!



E-coli is fecal matter --- very few of us think that fecal matter of any kind is "fertilizer" --
and we think it should be banned from agriculture.


Re this ...
QUOTE: Our digestive systems support digesting meat along with veggies since we are omnivores, with an omnivore gut.UNQUOTE

Any system can be forced to adapt for a time ---
What we are seeing is a huge increase in illness as animal-eating/dairy has advanced in our
societies --- and diseases have increased.

Animal/dairy-eating is connected to hypertension, heart disease, juvenile diabetes, diabetes, obesity, cataracts, cancers, breast cancer.

As I understand it, what harms our bodies harms our brains first ---
a lack of folate --- folic acid in its synthetic form --- which comes from fresh fruits and
vegetables is the cause of SPINA BIFIDA . . . and other neural cord disorders in newborns.
Also, is 40% connected to Down's Syndrome --- another condition of newborns.
We don't know how long it may take to totally damage our immune systems ---
however, it is believed that your immune system cannot detect cancer cells thru animal fat
stored on your body.

[uppityperson]

336. e-coli is a bacteria which is found in fecal matter.

You don't like feces being used as fertilizer? Why? Many people believe fecal matter is good fertilizer, used properly, as it has been for aeons all around the world. 1 problem with e-coli is when animals are butchered uncleanly, or food is washed/sprayed with water that the bad type e-coli is in.

Most e-coli strains are harmless and even beneficial to the animal it is in, being part of the natural flora, producing Vit B12, keeping bad bacteria out.

"As I understand it, what harms our bodies harms our brains first" Not always.

You say an amazing amount of stuff here, some of which I see bits of scientifically proved information, the rest? Naw.

How about transporting veggies/fruits all over? What about using all those pesticides on them? What about the lack of genetic variation in mega-farming? These are all issues too.

[defendandprotect]

358. Fecal matter should not be used as fertilizer... and this is another problem

with animal-exploitation --- the WASTE matter.

The USDA is permitting 17% fecal matter on carcasses ---

The rest we agree needs to be changed ---

and that's why the issue raised in this thread has to be given reasoned thought ---
we have done great harm to life on the planet --- including our own lives.

Global Warming is an immediate problem --- and stopping animal-exploitation could help us there.
Stopping the violence of animal-exploitation could also help us --
violence breeds violence -- and as someone else noted animal-eating may lead to higher levels
of aggression and violence in humans.

[uppityperson]

361. Fecal matter can be used properly as a good fertilizer.

Nothing wrong with recycling it in a safe manner. What do you think organic farms use for fertilizer? What is organic fertilizer? Not just plants, no. That would be silly. Raise a crop to use for fertilizer for the next crop? Of course plant material is used in part, but so is animal feces.

[defendandprotect]

368. Why would you want anyone's fecal matter thrown on your veggie garden?

As I understand it, some organic farms do use fecal matter ---
preferably NOT.

Re crops as fertilizer . . . you don't have to turn over the full crop ---
what is left in the ground is often pulled out ---
THAT should be recycled into the soil.


Meanwhile --- again, the whole concept of farming is too huge --
too much land ripped open --- too much top soil already lost.

You know, food used to just follow humans . . . you eat, you drop seeds, food grows.

And nature does it without ripping up everything!!

[uppityperson]

371. You don't understand it very well. Manure is used in gardens, on farms.

What would you want organic farms to use as fertilizer if not manure and what vegetable matter they can find? Of course I put my chicken's manure in my garden, and I am lucky to have a source for horse manure that doesn't include too many weed seeds. And of course I compost what is left of my crops and dig it in to feed next years food. But digging in what is left is not enough for next year's crop.

Remember indians and corn? They used to put a dead fish where they planted corn to give the corn nutrients to grow from.


Just for fun, google "organic farm" and manure together, or "organic farm" fertilizer. Ever hear of worm castings? How about composted chicken manure? Those are both found in most nurseries and are, yes, feces.

[defendandprotect]

503. Are you suggesting there aren't overall objections to using fecal matter as fertilizer?

Of course there are --- including in organic farming ---

Composting is an excellent way to obtain fertilizer --- without fecal matter.

Additionally --- the concept of farming throwing petroleum based fertilizer all over fields has to change --- Rachel Carson/Silent Spring --- we've known this for decades.
We've destroyed the nutrition of our foods ---

[uppityperson]

539. No. I'm saying that there are ways of dealing with using manure for fertilizer.

manure, handled properly, is a great fertilizer. That is what i am saying.

[Evoman]

161. It's natural for people to eat bugs. But people don't eat bugs.

They are a good source of nutriets and protein. I think we should bring back the Bug Diet. You go first.

[Retrograde]

171. Some do

I haven't voluntarily eaten bugs, even though I suppose it's not that different than eating other arthropods like shrimp, crabs and lobster. It's a cultural thing. The pre-Columbean Aztecs supposedly used a lot of various invertebrates in their diet, and I've read that it's still possible to get grub tacos and deep-fried grasshoppers in Mexico.

I found a web site supposedly devoted to weird cuisine, but there's a lot of stuff I've had on it (I'll try anything once - except poutine): http://www.weird-food.com/index.html

[Evoman]

174. Poutine is fucking awesome.

But in can literally kill you in one sitting. I've eaten it a couple of times, but I've mostly resisted for my health and well-being.

[mainer]

184. Nothing better on a cold, cold night

Fills you up like THAT.

[ThePowerofWill]

179. Lots of people eat bugs.

Maybe not in the US but elsewhere theres a lot of bug eating going on. Various things like fried grasshoppers, and chocolate covered ants, or indigenous folks who find honey ants a sweet treat, or the love of grubs.

Bug eating is a cultural thing. It seems weird and alien to those of us in the US, but that does not make it odd or disgusting. It just seems so to many of us.

[NorthernSpy]

213. I would definitely try escamoles...

Pre-Columbian Mexican food: ant eggs. They come with tortillas and guacamole. I'd try 'em.


Delicate and buttery, they say.

[ThePowerofWill]

232. I'd try them as well.

I've had cooked grubs, and grasshoppers. The grubs were not bad, just odd texture. The grasshoppers were fried then drizzled with honey, and cinnamon. They were a crunchy lightly sweet taste sensation, very good i must say. I've eaten plenty of odd stuff. I try to be open to new tastes, but sometimes it can be hard to put cultural prejudice aside at times. Many like rats, others horse, eels, haggis, kim chi, etc.Most of my culinary subversions are a result of my trying to understand other cultures, and customs.

[CrispyQ]

162. I realize DU is a progressive board,

but you'll never be able to have a reasoned discussion on this topic. I've been here since '04 & every time someone posts a similar thread as yours, it gets mean, nasty & hostile. People will give up their SUVs before they give up their meat.

I've been vegetarian since '86, my husband since '72, we've been vegan since '00. ;) We both work out regularly doing cardio & weight lifting - no weakling vegans here! Strangers constantly tell me what lovely skin I have. Last year at my annual checkup, my doctor commented that she wished all her patients were as healthy as I am. :thumbsup:

We are vegan for ethical reasons; we care about how we treat our planet & fellow beings. A few of my favorite justifications for our diet:

I like to eat as low on the food chain as possible.

I want to leave as small a footprint as possible.

I want to eat as far from my DNA as possible. ;) (I especially like this one!)


Welcome to DU, pathansen. :hi: Visit like minded DUers here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=231 There is a recipe thread that is pinned at the top of the forum with some great tasting recipes!

BTW, I have noticed at corporate functions that when there is a variety of pizza available the veggie pizza always gets eaten first. ;)

on edit: I certainly don't mean to discourage you from posting about this topic, but as you can see, you should have a very thick skin!

[defendandprotect]

330. Rather, we need more information on vegetarian/vegan lifestyles than not ---

[Perry Logan]

164. Two words: BOWEL CANCER.

[defendandprotect]

331. Let me add another: PROSTATE

[slackmaster]

532. That runs in my family

It's definitely genetically linked in our case, and so far nobody has succeeded in controlling it through diet (and many have tried).

[windoe]

169. Agreed that our food supply is not healthy~

containing hormones, insecticides, antibiotics, not to mention the inhumane treatment of the animals we eat. These health issues need to be addressed. Raising awareness of these issues, along with the corporate theft of small farms, frankenfood production, and loss of biodiversity of the wild and agricultural species of plants and animals is part of the picture.
Omnivores, herbivores and carnivores have been around for a long time, to each his/her own. I think a safe food supply is paramount to everyone.
Bon appetite!

[ileus]

181. well stated...prolly the best response yet.

[defendandprotect]

332. What of the planet --- can you address that? What of the violence?

[Xenotime]

170. Why is man so blood thristy?

[NorthernSpy]

177. it is our nature

We like things that are the color of blood. Red fruit is sweet. Red flesh is prime. Red connotes ripeness in fruit, or a fresh kill that can be eaten safely. To our brains, red means good.


We view things this way because it is our nature.

[defendandprotect]

333. That's a nonsense argument: What you would be saying is that nature is suicidal --- she's not!

[nemo137]

519. No, it's saying that we learned an association between Red and edible.

Look at plant bio - some plants "learned" that their pollinators saw better towards the red end of the spectrum, and so made sweet things red to get their pollen and seeds out. Same thing happened with us, we "learned" that red meant fresh, and therefore less likely to kill us. It has nothing to do with some personification having a death wish.

[cherokeeprogressive]

481. Why do we have binocular vision?

The reason is because it allows depth perception, which is necessary for judging distance between ourselves and prey. Now, I know not many of us pursue our own prey any longer, but we did at one point. Binocular vision lumps us in with predatory, meat eating creatures.

Do a little research and get back to me on something: How many animals have binocular vision and DO NOT eat meat? How many animals that lack binocular vision DO?

[Silent3]

500. I believe we're omnivores too, but...

...there is another good reason for binocular vision, apart from hunting: arboreal living. When you're swinging from tree limb to tree limb, binocular vision is very useful for judging depth and distance to that next branch. It's not absolutely necessary -- squirrels manage without binocular vision -- but it helps. (Squirrels can better survive a fall if they miss a branch that they leap for -- falling is harder on typically larger primates.)

If you add little or no color perception to binocular vision, then you're more likely to be looking at a pure carnivore.

[AZBlue]

172. #5 is wrong and #8 is just bullshit shoved down our throats by the food industry

It's their vegetarian version of "McDonald's salads are good for you!" and full of as much bullsit. Soy is not our friend.

[Mountainman]

175. I don't think this post is offensive. It's just a list. I don't think the poster is telling anyone

what they should eat.

[Matariki]

185. Except for the OP's subject line, you'd have a point

The list isn't all factually correct either, but there are certainly valid points in it.

The OP took those points and came to the conclusion that they are "Critical Reasons for a Vegetarian Diet". One could also read that same list and come to the conclusion that eating small portions of local and organically raised meat (and produce) would be beneficial environmentally and health-wise.

[ThePowerofWill]

205. Theres the truth right there.

We need to eat smaller amounts of meat, and do it in a more efficent organic way. I agree most meat in your average store is bad for you. Better raised, and taken care of stock, not near enough.

There was a study i read. It had to do with i want to say Japanese(might have been other, or all asians) were smaller than Americans. The study found that it was because we had more meat, and meat products in our diet. Another thing that showed was that you could get these benefits with as little as a tablespoon full of meat per day.

Also this largely rice and soy diet, was not aided by any modern vitamins, or suppliments. I mean just think about trying to be pure vegan, or vegetarian with no modern suppliments. I'd be very hard to do.

Also for those who don't like meat, it's wonderful we have plenty of suppliments and dietary information available so they can make that choice.

[cooolandrew]

178. I'm feeling more and more guilty every burger I eat. I'll cut down but christmas turkey is must.

[defendandprotect]

338. Did you read/watch Bill Maher's comments on turkey --- ????

It includes VIDEO of the turkey assembly line ---

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/george-bush-pa...

Again -- I think most of us here recognize that not being concerned about pollution and the planet
is dangerous for our survival.

And I hope that most of us here recognize the role that violence plays in enslaving us all ---
including the role it plays in animal-exploitation.

[uppityperson]

341. Do you wear leather or wool or silk?

Or only cotton that needs to be extremely heavily pesticided to make it to maturity?

[defendandprotect]

356. I try not to . . .

I avoid leather as much as possible ---
I hate wool --- but think there's some in my coat ---

and --- no silk blouses --- maybe two scarves --- ???

[uppityperson]

359. It is all compromises.

Leather and most silk are obtained by killing animals. Sheep for wool may or may not be raised humanely. Non-animal clothing has issues too. Cotton is usually very heavily sprayed. Artificially stuff is made of petroleum products. Linen I am not sure of.

They all have uses, all have misuses. Same with food. Time for another "back to the earth" time to come around. Time for people to stop buying latest fashions, needing so much stuff, eating so much non-locally non-humanely produced food of all sorts.

[defendandprotect]

369. No -- it's a matter of living with unpleasant compromises until you can find a better way ---

a compromise can be something temporary --

Leather -- imagine all the leather we have to get rid of every year !!!
Furniture stores filled with leather furniture!!!
12 million animals slaughtere EVERY DAY in America !!!

ALL Animal-exploitation --- "Manifest Destiny" + "Man's Dominion Over Nature" are harmful to the planet --- and finally harmful to our own species.

Silk, honey, wool are all part of animal exploitation ---

we have first to respond to the slaughter of animals which is the highest exploitation ---
except, of course, for animal-experimentation!!!!

Food monopolies have led to this insane trucking of food all over the States ---
and trucking companies now have a vested interest in keeping this going.
It's all a lousey idea for the planet ---

[tblue37]

182. Chimps eat meat. They even sometimes hunt the infants of other

chimp tribes to eat them. Read some Jane Goodall. Humans are omnivores. It is one of the evolutionary adaptations that allowed us to fill so many ecological niches. ALso, some evolutionary biologists believe that the high quality protein from meat is part of what enabled us to develop our high-energy consuming brains, as well as other human advances, since nature's vegetarians have to spend so much time grazing.

[jpgray]

186. Human beings the only primates that eat meat? Time to read up on biology, friend.

[Alexander]

189. I'm a vegetarian and I find two of your points to be blatantly WRONG.

Namely, points #5 and #8.

Soy products over the long term have occasionally had detrimental health effects on people. I'm not jumping on the soy bandwagon unless and until I know there aren't any risks involved.

[superduperfarleft]

192. The Chinese seemed to do okay. n/t

[Alexander]

198. The Chinese eat a wider variety of animals than Americans.

Cats and dogs are fine cuisine in Beijing, along with God knows what else.

I remember when I was there. Each meal was a virtual potpourri of every animal they could find and cook.

If you have a source saying that the Chinese people who eat soybeans are all vegetarians and doing fine, I'll read it with an open mind.

But I doubt you have such a source.

[superduperfarleft]

215. Well, the China Study is an excellent book.

http://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1932100660/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198452128&sr=8-1

[Alexander]

249. Yup. But it doesn't claim that all Chinese people are vegetarians.

Since vegetarians are more likely to rely on soy products to supplement their diet, they are also more likely to be exposed to the risks associated with excessive soy consumption.

Non-vegetarians who eat soy products don't do it out of necessity. They tend to consume soy-based proteins sparingly, as they already get protein from other sources.

[superduperfarleft]

260. You're right, it doesn't claim that the Chinese are vegetarians.

But it does claim that the Chinese rely heavily on soy products, and that they suffer no adverse health effects from it, despite what the Weston a Price foundation may say, or whatever that nutbag from WND once claimed that soy makes you gay.

And as I already said upthread, many vegans and vegetarians also don't rely heavily on soy products. I was simply addressing your point that soy might be dangerous. Not sure why you're being so confrontational about this since I was under the impression that we agreed anyway.

[Matariki]

250. Mainland China's life expectancy is lower than in the US though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Japan's is the highest.

[superduperfarleft]

261. But they also aren't turning gay or growing breasts in record numbers

despite what certain nutritionists or other assorted nutjobs will tell you that a heavily soy-based diet would lead to.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53327

[Matariki]

345. OMG, that is seriously retarded.

I eat tons of soy and still have small breasts dammit.

[uppityperson]

347. Beware thyroid issues and soy.

Soy interacts with thyroid hormones, can keep you from absorbing/using it if you take replacement.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

441. Having been in Asia, I can state categorically that East Asians do NOT eat as much soy as American

vegans do.

Among the Japanese, vegetarianism was traditionally rare among the general population except for Buddhist monks. They didn't eat meat, but they have eaten seafood since prehistoric times. In fact, archaeologists find prehistoric settlements by looking for "shell mounds," places where early people threw away their mollusk shells and fish bones.

[superduperfarleft]

354. Lay off the meat and put more effort into the soy.

Mine are coming in nicely. Of course, it may have more to do with the copious amounts of beer and sitting on my ass all day.

[Matariki]

364. LOL. So beer will help? I can do that.

:beer:

There's a beer smilie!

[superduperfarleft]

365. And as George Castanza would say

Good night! I'm leaving on that high note.

[Matariki]

244. It's true.

I'm Chinese. We eat disgusting things ;-)

[AZBlue]

326. The Chinese eat a VERY small amount of soy.

Not the amounts you'd have to consume to get enough protein on a vegetarian diet. And, not processed like it is here. That's a false argument.

[superduperfarleft]

334. Funny, my Chinese wife begs to differ. n/t

[defendandprotect]

342. Off subject . . .

We ate at a Chinese restaurant tonight and we all love the tea ---
We are told it's "Oolong" but we're unclear as to what makes it so good ---
plus I notice that it doesn't keep me awake ---

Does your wife have any info on this to help us connect with these great pots of tea at home?

[superduperfarleft]

349. She says it's a black tea.

Traditionally it is loose-leaf, best chance is at an asian-market, or maybe a specialty tea shop or health food store.

[defendandprotect]

355. Thank you!

[SmokingJacket]

194. "If demand was greater, the cost would go down" -- Since when??

I can't think of any time that increased demand has lead to lower prices!

[Wizard777]

208. Bull shit! A vegitarian diet is unnatural for humans and I can prove it. Vitamin B12

Without vitamin B12 you will go insane and die. The only source of B12 is MEAT. There are psuedo B12's that have a vegitable source. But they will not prevent you from going insane and dying. That why they are psudeo B12. Close but no cigar or um Steak. So the only true vegitarians are insane or dead from a lack of B12. If they are not they are eating meat (B12) in the form vitamin supplement. Just tell them thier pill used to have a face and felt love.......

[yewberry]

210. Go read a book.

Many of us are neither insane nor dead.

Geez.

:eyes:

[pathansen]

214. You can use supplements or yeast, soy milk is fortified with B12

Also see http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm#reliable for more ideas.

[provis99]

286. Key point: its Fortified

ie. not naturally occurring. The B12 they fortify this stuff with is from animal products. So you're eating just as much animal B12 as a meat eater is. Frankly if it wasn't for the existence of meat eaters, there wouldn't be any way to extract the B12 from dead animals for your precious supplements. Ironic that vegetarians today rely on meat eaters for their carefully fortified diets, while hypocritically criticizing the very meat eaters they need to get their vitamins.

[Matariki]

316. Brewer's Yeast is a vegetable source of B-12

Unless of course you consider yeast culture to be an animal...

[defendandprotect]

343. How do you use it --- is it sprinkled on other foods?

[Matariki]

348. Popcorn. Yum.

[Name removed]

217. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

344. "Jesus Christ" is thought by many to have been a vegetarian ---

and that the miracle of the loaves and fishes --- was actually FISHWEED !!!

[uppityperson]

351. Do you really want to get into "Jesus Christ is thought by many..." here?

Not really a good argument or way to go here.

[flvegan]

366. Christ was an Essene.

Duck and cover, buddy.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

424. Many are then incorrect..

"ichthus" In no way could mean fishweed the only people who would make such a mistake would be people who assume the Bible was written in english..

People try to make Jesus allot of things... A pacifist (tell that to merchants at the temple), A vegitarian, whatever they can do to make him part of their cause..

[YOY]

444. Like you could prove he exitisted in the first place let alone make me give a f***

what he ate.

[flvegan]

226. ZOMG! I R INSANE N DYING. KTHXBAI.

Um...note to self: Spellcheck gift to Wizard777 for Christmas.

[superduperfarleft]

227. BUT ZOMG HE PROVED IT!!!!! n/t

[uppityperson]

350. e-coli in our intestines makes some B12. nt

[JamesA1102]

218. Please don't force your values on me!

If you want a vegitarian diet. Good for you. I have no problem with that.

But you people are becoming like the Religious Right by trying to force your values on everyone else. I don't like it when they try to do it, so please stop pulling the same BS.

[superduperfarleft]

224. Was there a vegan holding you at gunpoint forcing you to open this thread?

I'm starting to think that meat-eating leads to melodrama.

[flvegan]

228. You know, if the thread title was 8 Critical Reasons for a Higher Mileage Auto

this would have 100 recs and positive responses.

Glossing over the whole global warming thing, all other options aside, kills me. I keep looking for the "Hummer H2 Appreciation Thread" but I'm not finding it.

[superduperfarleft]

230. IT'S MY CHOICE TO DRIVE A HUMMER!!!

YOU GODDDAM FUNDIE ENVIRONMENTALISTS!!!!111 QUIT TELLING ME HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE!!111

Sorry, I took a B12 pill. I feel better now. I was getting insane there for a second.

[pathansen]

233. You misunderstood my intentions

I was not trying to force my values onto anyone but simply relating some information.

Some people may want to know about all the dangers of eating meat, what goes on in the factory farms, etc. And, if eating meat is causing global warming , I think many will agree that someone needs to at least say something about this.

So please don't force your values onto me by keeping me from exercising my Freedom of Speech by posting something I feel is important. I didn't force you to read this post but others may be interested in reading it. And if you want to eat meat, go ahead.
Peace.

[Matariki]

You should change your original subject line then

personally, I agree with most of what you put in your OP, although a couple points are questionable. However, I don't arrive at the same conclusion as you, i.e. it's 'critical' that everyone become vegetarian.

Why not simply advocate smaller portions of organically and locally raised meat? For most people, this would be a more realistic and do-able solution than not eating any meat at all.

For some people being vegetarian or vegan might be the healthiest choice, personally I got very sick when I was a vegan. People's bodies are different and 'optimal diet' varies from person to person. No argument from me though that the average American diet contains an unhealthy amount of meat, or is ecological in any way...

It's really amazing how emotional this topic is, on 'both' sides of the issue...

[pathansen]

388. Maybe I should have just suggested eating less meat

Some people do need more meat than others.
Depends on one's blood type: Type O people need more meat than Type A.

[Rex]

221. Couldn't live off of veggies alone.

Not in my lifetime.

[MrSlayer]

231. I'll continue to enjoy beef.

And not feel the least bit guilty about it.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

240. Same here.

[DB1]

239. Thanks for your post. I have been Censored. Bye bYe DU no more $

[Matariki]

242. Don't let it get to you DB1

the meat/no meat issue has always been a hot one here. it's amazing how the issue of nutrition can be so filled with passion. best to not take anything in these threads personally ;-)

[DB1]

247. Thanks but I am gone.

I have spent money here but the censoring is wrong. I put in 4 stars instead of saying a word for excrement and it got deleted??? Give me a break. I will send my money to Raw Story or Obama or Edwards from now on. Thanks again I will miss people like you.

[defendandprotect]

352. misplaced

misplaced

[flvegan]

248. Didn't you say something like

"If you weren't so full of shit meat might taste good to you?"?

Have ya READ the rules?

Cry me a river.

[Matariki]

251. uh-oh. that's not very nice...

i guess a bit of censorship was in order...

[DB1]

252. **** Is what I said

[flvegan]

254. Oh, well that's MUCH different.

Those are different keys and all. I'm also fairly certain that in the early stages of this game, it said "shit" but I could be wrong.

ANYway, doesn't really change the tone of the post now, does it?

[DB1]

255. So the tone needs to be censored? Vote repug???

[uppityperson]

256. JCOATH, most of us get a post deleted for going overboard for mods.

If getting that post deleted is too much, you haven't gotten outraged over larger things going on here and elsewhere.

[DB1]

259. I find it ironic...

that a democratic "underground" site would censor anything. I have donated cash here previously thinking anyone could state their mind but if what I said is censored, what else is getting filtered??? I will continue to check this site but not give it cash.

[flvegan]

262. It's not censorship.

It's adherence to the rules. The mods do a damn fine job.

When it comes to getting shit deleted (or as you say, "censored") around here I bill with the gods, so I know of what I speak.

[DB1]

265. Shame on you, you said shit.

[Blue-Jay]

285. Shame on me too.

Read the fucking rules.

I've had enough posts deleted, so I consider myself something of an expert on the matter. If you post a personal attack, your post will get deleted. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with saying (implying) the word "shit". That's fine. Saying that someone is full of it is a personal attack and will get your post deleted.

Cry me a fucking river full of shit.

[DB1]

287. Excellent! N?T

[uppityperson]

269. This is a private and moderated website. Here's a link for you...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

The rules were presented when signing up. Sometimes it is good to go back and review them. This is a moderated website with rules. There are other websites without rules. There are reasons for both sorts. Happy holidays.

[DB1]

290. Thanks for the redundancy.

[uppityperson]

293. You are welcome

you are welcome

[flvegan]

257. Grow up.

If you've got issue with the mods deleting a post of yours, talk to admin.

If I posted something like eyhey ou'reyey a uckingfey ouchebagday, I'd expect it to be deleted. While I didn't TYPE something against the rules, the post still violates.

"Vote repug?" how...hmmmm...simplistic. Yeah, whatever, you're being censored. Here's a quarter, call the ACLU.

[DB1]

264. Did you read my post before it was deleted?

It really was not that bad. I wrote if you were not so full of **** in the text. (And actually put the asterisks instead of the word) I would not take offense to that. Would you? I would hope we have thicker skin than that.

[flvegan]

266. Yes I did. Would I take offense?

No. But then, you weren't responding to me. I can honestly say that I thought I saw (in my mind's eye) "shit" and not "****" in your post. It stood out to me.

Be that as it may, regardless, the tone and intent of your post obviously violated the rules, hence the deletion. It's not about the thickness of the skin of the poster you're responding to, but the deviation from the very fair rules here.

Honestly, if you have issue, e-mail the mods of the forum or admin and raise the issue.

[DB1]

271. OK I But that does not make it right. I pay for this. The rules are too strict.

[flvegan]

275. Whoa. Wait a minute...you pay for what?

I don't think that donating to be a part of this website should elevate the end user to be above the aforementioned rules. One can view and post on DU without donating.

The rules can, at times, seem strict and usually that opinion depends upon a poster's buy-in on a topic. I donate a couple times (at least) every year, and I get stuff deleted all the time. Hell, I've been suspended. Did I deserve it? Hell, probably. Did I think that I deserved it? Hell no.

Fact remains, if you have issue with something getting deleted, it's very easy to contact the mods or admin and get a reason for the ruling.

[DB1]

280. OK OK OK

[uppityperson]

272. take it up with the mods in a pm or email.

ask them why it was deleted, tell them why you think it should be undeleted. I bet it wasn't just the shit part, but the tenor.

[uppityperson]

270. well, good think you didn't post something like that.

:rofl:

[Dorian Gray]

372. No...

telling people they are full of Shit (or ****)... either way you spell it... is the problem.

[LostinVA]

420. That's what they said

I believe it was their 45th post or so.

[karlrschneider]

243. I'll stick with my red meat, thanks.

...

[MoonRiver]

263. Well said, and totally correct!

:kick: & :thumbsup:

[LWolf]

267. You've given some reasons, certainly,

for SOME people to become vegetarians, and for ALL people to investigate alternate sources of protein and get a much smaller portion of their diet from animal protein.

# 5 is not correct, of course. We are omnivores, and not the only primates to eat animals as part of their diet.

I have already reduced the amount of meat that I eat considerably, and increased the amount of soy. Meat that comes from healthful sources is scarce and pricey, so I eat much less of it.

I have a small flock of chickens that free range in my little orchard. They keep the bugs in control without pesticides and provide me with eggs and a few roasting chickens each year. They are raised without hormones or antibiotics, and I still eat plenty of eggs.

I also have a few sheep, who provide a little meat as well. They are an endangered breed of hair sheep, are fairly primitive, and very hardy and parasite resistant. I really have them to help control the grass and weeds on the place, but excess males go into the freezer each year, unless someone else wants them. Both cockerels and ram lambs are offered for sale first, and eaten if they don't sale. It's not for "profit;" I generally GIVE the cockerels away, and a ram lamb here or there doesn't cover the cost of grass hay to feed the rest during the winter. There's no "profit" involved.

If I wanted to hunt, there is a free-range source of meat right out my back door; deer are abundant in my area. I don't, though.

A little chicken, eggs, a little lamb, and CHEESE. I love cheese, even though it's the first animal product I'd give up for health reasons. I've thought about getting a couple of goats to milk for my own cheese, but I have enough to take care of right now.

My animals forage quite nicely here at home in a climate that is not great for growing food crops. I have to supplement their feed in the frozen winter, when no grass is growing and no bugs are out. Many people in this area grow a few acres of grass hay and sell it off in the summer for people like me. They are hobby farmers, just pulling in a few dollars from their hay to benefit the homestead. Many of them use draft horses instead of motorized equipment to manage what they do. A few extra acres of hay help maintain their draft animals.

I kind of like it this way. While I'm eating more soy, I don't like the idea that my primary protein source is some product manufactured in a factory somewhere. I like to be more closely connected to my sources of food.

Do animals have feelings? I know they do. My animals live comfortable, stress-free lives, longer and better quality than any animal raised for the commercial meat market. When it is time to eat them, they are dispatched with respect, in the quickest way possible. Having to take responsibility for the kill and the processing also makes sure that I don't take any meat, or the life that provided it, for granted. I believe that I eat less meat providing for myself than I would getting it in a styrofoam and plastic package.

My situation is the minority, though. As long as there are 6+ billion people in the world to feed, it's better that most, or all, food come from plant sources.

Most of the environmental concerns you note are really the outcome of too many humans on the planet.

[cgrindley]

274. Reason 9... Sanctimony

9. Being a sanctimonious vegetarian allows you to get basic science horribly wrong without feeling any tinge of guilt or ignorance (eg only a moron believes in 3 and only if you have absolutely no grounding whatsoever in primatology could you possibly believe in 5).

[flvegan]

283. Projection. Next?

"Only a moron believes in 3".

Only an asshole dismisses it. Now we're even.

[cgrindley]

398. No... believing in number 3 and 5 really do expose you as unedumacated

in both philosophy and primatology. Have you taken any philosophy courses at the university level? What about any of the natural sciences? Do you actually understand what a primate's diet comprises?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

425. LOL

I see a motivational poster ( like the team work ones )...

Sanctimony

You can get the science wrong if your cause is right

[The Stranger]

294. Great post. Judging from the flames, just remember . . .

First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ...

[uppityperson]

296. Seriously? Even with scientific backing proving wrong?

Everyone I ignore, then ridicule, and fight, they win?

[yewberry]

339. As an aside:

What scientific backing are you talking about?

There's plenty of good science behind the benefits of veg*nism, the OP notwithstanding. Do you disagree?

[uppityperson]

346. Yes, there are benefits, aside from OP toutingness.

and I think many people eat too much meat which can be an issue, should be used more as a condiment rather than as the meat industry wants.

I hate generalizations, like "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ..." since that seems like what happens here a lot regarding mrbush and the Iraq debacle.

[The Stranger]

423. That is practically the history of science -- proving prior scientific findings wrong.

In fact, that is critical to the scientific method.

But everyone appears to be employing a rhetorical trick by attacking one element of the post to attempt to implicitly "prove wrong" all of it.

[uppityperson]

486. I'm not attacking "one element" but a bunch of it is wrong. If you're going to

try to say vegetarianism is good, and people should eat less meat, make the reasons be accurate. If you're going to attack Iraq, make the reasons be accurate. Not that they are the same, but the same principle applies.

[Blue-Jay]

298. What part of that Ghandi quote covers "discussing some inaccuracies"?

Some of the points on that list are frankly inaccurate. Some but not all, mind you. I don't see an "ignoring" of the list, so that doesn't work. There is some ridicule and a bit of fighting up-thread.

Also, what is the OP trying to "win" in your estimation?

[CRF450]

307. Oh great, not this shit again.

I'll eat my steak, MMMMMM MMMMMM!

[ileus]

322. don't you find you're more fearful after eating meat??? LOL

That statement was the one that jumped the shark for me.

[CRF450]

367. Honestly I dont see the point in these type of discussions

I eat alot of meat myself, but along with a healthy supply of fruits, vegies, and alot of excersize from a physically demanding sport I'm involved in. Nothing wrong with my health at all.

As for the environmental talks thats brought up about eating meat, I think alot of that (but not all of it) stuff is bull too.

[laurelbunny]

318. Where did you find these facts?

I'd like to read more, no complaints, I think I'll try to eat less, if not no meat this Holiday Season

[pathansen]

390. Here are some links

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/vegetarian-is-the-new-pri_b_39014.html

also www.meetyourmeat.com

http://www.goveg.com

http://www.organicconsumers.org/foodsafety/processedmeat050305.cfm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzFC7QP628A

http://www.goveg.com/feat/chewonthis/

There is also the book "Diet for a Small Planet" but that was written before Global Warming, factory farming, all the antibiotics in meat, etc.

[jgraz]

324. The biggest problem is factory farming

I'd be willing to bet that my organic, humanely-raised, locally-produced grass-fed ribeye hurt the environment far less than your last pint of commercially grown strawberries.

[flvegan]

329. Potentially, that's possible best/worst scenario considered.

Works for you, and that's good.

Shame that you're not running a bigger vacuum. Kind of like saying "I'd be willing to bet that my H2 in the driveway hurt the environment today less than your Prius because I telecommute."

[uppityperson]

337. I agree with you that that is the biggest problem

Moving away from genetic diversity, from crop diversity, to mega-farms and making crops (meat and plants) that transport and store well, while losing nutritional value and diversity.

[piedmont]

328. Learn to hunt and most of these points evaporate. nt

[flvegan]

335. Brilliance. Nothing more, nothing less.

What we really need is every idiot on the planet heading out into the woods each Saturday to "hunt". I mean, one can only lynch so many yard vermin. Feral cats are probably too stringy and Little Suzy and Little Johnny ain't gonna like eating the neighborhood fluffy.

So yes, send millions of morons that can barely drive themselves to work each day out into the wild. With guns.

How...fantastic.

[mainer]

408. How about just be able to buy wild game?

Not everyone wants or should hunt. But if a hunter kills two deer, why couldn't he sell one to his neighbor?

[defendandprotect]

353. The threads two main points: harm to the planet and HEALTH issues . . . woefully neglected --- !!!

[superduperfarleft]

357. I will admit, quite a few points in the OP are seriously flawed.

As a vegan, I hate when people use bullshit like "humans are naturally herbivores" to make their point. After that, I find myself arguing something I don't agree with.

The environmental and ethical reasons stand just fine on their own.

[defendandprotect]

370. The illnesses were developing around animal/dairy eating seem to suggest that

humans SHOULD be herbivores ---

and I don't really see any evidence that humans are natural animal-eaters ---

HOWEVER, I'm always surprised that the spiritual nature of the issue isn't paramount --
I don't know how you would considere spiritual to be different from ethical --
but I feel my objection is spiritual ---

then . . . HEALTH reasons ---

[cgrindley]

436. That's so dumb it hurts

our lifespan on average is comparatively twice what it is for other mammals (based on heart beats).

PS do you know anything at all about teeth?

PPS the spiritual nature of the issue shouldn't be paramount because there is NO SUCH GOD DAMNED THING AS THE SPIRITUAL WORLD. We are animals.

[defendandprotect]

502. Perhaps you've noticed that we've made other species extinct --- ????

Sickened and displaced most animals on the planet ---
not to mention the wholesale restructuring of the DNA of most animals?

We've just recently crossed the line where now 3 out of 4 Americans will have cancer --
We have widespread obesity, heart disease, hypertension --- now in the very youngest of our
citizens --- rampant cancers, including breast cancers in women and MEN --- diabetes and juvenile diabetes ....

Of course, we have damaged our immune systems.

Teeth, eh? Well, I know if you bite into a rabbit you're not going to be able to kill it--
nor do you have the claws to help you --

and, you will not eat your kill immediately nor blood soaked and raw.


One of our major problems is a human disconnect with nature ---
this trait is seen in males, especially and in "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over
Nature" which are license to exploit nature --- natural resources --- animal-life ---
and even other human beings according to various myths of inferiority.
This is patriarchy at its most suicidal!

This insane patriachal greed and self-obsession has given us Global Warmin ---
overpopulation --- and pollution of the earth.

Meanwhile . . . most people recognize even the "spirit" of the dogs they live with!

On the other hand, folks like George Bush put firecrackers up frogs' asses and gleefully
go on with the day.

[cgrindley]

530. Get back to the commune, you dirty hippy

I cannot even begin to dedicate the time to pointing out the irrationalities and factual errors behind every single one of your sentences. It's Christmas and I want to play on my Wii.

[silverojo]

373. I tried the vegetarian diet for a while

All I accomplished was giving myself horrible gas and a potentially deadly vitamin B12 deficiency (a problem very common in vegetarians/vegans).

Sorry, folks--I'd rather eat meat than risk nerve damage and/or paralysis.

[pathansen]

389. Maybe try B12 supplements or brewers yeast?

[Matariki]

376. We should discuss growing CORN for 'bio-fuel'

Talk about unsustainable. I worry about that.

[MattSh]

382. GoVeg.com - THAT sounds like a neutral resource...

NOT

Would you vote for a republican because a republican website gave you eight reasons to?

Than why even consider eight reasons from a vegetarian website as anything less than totally bullshit propaganda???

:wtf:

[Mendocino]

383. With all the havoc that we as humans bring upon the earth,

isn't it time that we minimize our effects. If to do that we have to stop eating meat, so be it. To paraphrase John Muir: "If war broke out between humans and animals, I would side with the bears".

[Incitatus]

386. Why is hamburger meat so cheap when it takes that much fuel to make it?

You can get hamburger for less than $3 per pound and your post says it takes the equivalent of 1 gallon of gas to make one patty.

something here doesn't make sense

[superduperfarleft]

455. Government subsidies. n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

391. I am primarily vegetarian...

I do have some chicken, Turkey or a little fish periodically and I never eat red meat or pork.

I reduced my meat intake to a minimum, simply because I do not like the cruelty that is involved.

And do not think for a second that all this Human over consumption of natural resources will not come back and bite our head off, because it will.

[Quantess]

397. Modern people today are alienated from meat farming.

We don't "meet our meat". We can only guess how the creature lived and died before ending up on our tables. It never crosses people's minds, typically.

I have not read any of the other posts yet.

[Retrograde]

471. it goes further than that

Not only do most people not raise their own, meats as they are sold today are so far removed from the animal that it's sometimes hard to think of them as once alive. It's very hard to find organ meats in supermarkets anymore. They used to be common when I was younger, up until about 20 years ago. Beef heart and tongue, for example, are mostly protein, lower in fat than other muscle meats and used to be a lot cheaper. I can still occasionally find ox tails, but it seems that everything else that could remind us that this was once a living animal has been banished. IMHO, if one is going to be a carnivore (or even an omnivore) one shouldn't be so squeamish.

What happens to all the leftover parts these days? Pet food? Recycled back as cattle feed?

[Marrah_G]

400. If you do not want to eat meat then don't

But keep your self-righteous, erroneous bullshit to yourself. You are no better then then religious asshole who corners me on the subway yapping about how I need to be SAVED.

Yes....he thinks HIS intentions are good and loving also.

[Annces]

402. You are probably not

self righteous about anything are you. (sarcasm)

If you care deeply about something, you are self righteous about it. Just because animals cannot speak, they still have rights.

[Meshuga]

410. I usually like your answers

And again you nailed it. :-)

[Marrah_G]

411. Good morning Mr. Wiggles!

:donut:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

431. thank you. nt

[superduperfarleft]

437. "If you don't want to vote Republican, then don't."

"But keep your self-righteous, Democrat-loving bullshit to yourself."

"If you don't want to shop at Wal-Mart, then don't."

"If you don't want to drive an SUV, then don't."

Funny how people here react positively to "telling people how to live" when they agree with it, but howl like rabid monkeys when they don't.

[Marrah_G]

440. Wow that is quite a stretch there.

You've taken irrationality to a whole different level.

Good luck with that.

[superduperfarleft]

445. It's not a stretch just because you say so. n/t

[Marrah_G]

449. It is a stretch because it is a stretch-

It's is a ridiculously reaching argument and frankly I find your whole thought process absurd.

That's your reality and you are welcomed to it.

Unlike some people, I really don't care how you choose to live your life. However, much in the same way I treat preachers trying to save me, I will simply turn and walk away, humming a nice tune.

[superduperfarleft]

453. Okay, since this is the way you want to argue.

IS NOT NOT NOT NOT!!!!11

Thinking critically. Try it sometime.

[JuniperLea]

465. You're a better person than I am...

I have to literally bite my tongue NOT to start singing Sabbath Bloody Sabbath!

:P

But seriously, you are absolutely right. I am not a bad person because I don't believe in the mythical bearded cloud deity or the mythical ancient texts that go with... likewise I'm not a bad person for eating pigs, chickens, eggs, cheese and the occasional cheeseburger or Beef Wellington. I've lost the taste for beef to some degree, but still have a bit from time to time.

Bad people are those who try to force other people to abide by their own beliefs.

[Marrah_G]

466. I'm going off on a completely different tangant now.

I suggest trying a bit of organic, grass fed beef from one of the fancy natural foods places. I did and I could not believe the different in taste. And you end up eating far less of it not only because of cost but because the taste is really satisfying. It's a rare treat for me but definitely worthwhile.

[JuniperLea]

484. Me too!

You can get heirloom meats that are processed in the oldest Kosher fashion too... no fear at all... no adrenalin... they are happy to the end and don't experience pain... not enough time.

I eat very, very little beef. When I do, I try to know where it came from.

[Quantess]

522. As an agnostic, non religious meat eater, I'd say you are about half right.

Just because a person eats meat does not mean we shouldn't increase our awareness of meat animals' suffering and mistreatment and abuse. Yes I do eat meat, but I would feel a lot better if the meat I consumed came from well treated animals. I would continue refusing meat from known abusive sources such as KFC/ TacoBell, and I would pay extra for meat raised from sources who raised their animals well and humanely. You wouldn't? You don't give a shit?

Talk to me about Jesus, and I'll tell you who doesn't give a shit.

[Marrah_G]

543. I do actually give a shit

And I would very much like to see laws changed to stop the mistreatment and abuse. My objection is the half truths and out-right lies the OP uses to propagate his point of view while trying to "save" others. His way is the only way and unless we follow his way we are helping to destroy the earth.

It is the approach he and others use towards others that is offensive and reminds me VERY much of Fundy religious people. His intentions may be good, the same way that Fundy is trying to save my soul from their "Hell".

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

413. As a proud omnivore I feel the need to refute some of this

#2) Health: Too much or too little of anything is bad but a properly balanced diet is natural for the human body. There are few if any places on the planet which grow the proper variety of planets throughout enough of the year to sustain a healthy person. Combine this with the fact that allergies to plant proteins (like soy, peanut, nuts) is *way* more common than an allergy to say Beef and it becomes pretty obvious that a human diet naturally includes meat.

Also please consider that things like e. coli are not about the nature of meat as they are about the improper handling of it. Seems to me there was an e. coli breakout in spinach last year.

Oh yea one more thing Adrenalin denatures at just over 100 degrees fareinhight so if you actually cook your meat adrenalin is not a problem

#3) Ethical: Its no less ethical for a man to eat a cow than it is for a lion to eat a gazelle or, for that sake, a shark to eat a man.

#4) Expense: Im forced to do vegan baking because one of my kids is dairy allergic and the other is egg allergic.. It is not less expensive

#5) See Number 2 Ill add That Jane Goodall established more than 20 years ago that wild chimpanzees kill other animals once in a while and eat the meat with relish. Other primates (except gorillas) do so as well. It's true chimps and other apes eat a mostly veggie diet, but for that matter so do most humans. Hunter-gatherers today consume only about 35 percent meat to 65 percent vegetables (Lee and Devore, 1976).

#6) The impurity with which we handle and eat food is not because mean by nature is bad.

#8) more than 1% of the worlds population is allergic to soy! while my family uses soy milk and, in general I use soy milk because of the afore mentioned milk allergy and it is an *ok* substitute (as opposed to soy cheese which has awful taste and texture) but soy is lacking in omega 3 fatty acids which can be obtained through flax but is best obtained through fish or eggs..

#6)

[earth mom]

414. K & R & Bookmarked.

Especially after reading this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x126873

[B Calm]

438. It's the pesticides, petrol chemical fertilizers and

other significant intensive farming methods farmers use now days because they have nutrient depleted their soil that cause the highest levels of cancer on the planet.. just something else to ponder...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

442. My strongest disagreement is with #5

Agriculture is a late invention in human history. For most of our existence, we were hunter-gatherers, as most nomadic peoples still are.

If were meant to be herbivores, we'd have teeth like cows or horses. Instead, we have incisors and canines, which are found in carnivorous animals, as well. That spells "omnivore."

The Inuit, who live on a mostly meat and fish diet, were quite healthy before they came into contact with Western processed food.

Throughout the world, a vegan diet has been considered something that you adopt only out of necessity when you're starving.

Chinese peasants sometimes lived vegan, but only because they couldn't afford anything else. They ate meat when they could get it and considered it a huge treat.

Even observant Hindus eat dairy products and infertile eggs.

The only traditionally and voluntarily vegan population I know of is Buddhist monks in Asia.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

514. Shhhh dont let facts get in the way

Pushy vegetarians for years have been screaming at us about the ethics of killin animals... When thet appeal failed tehy went to health

They then take the most unhealthy unnatural diet (including cola, and other *non* animal based fats) and set it up as a straw man while ignoring the rather healthy diet of, for example, the Japanese, Koreas, the Inuit, and others..

When you punch holes in that they take the issue of the day (today its global warming) and tie that in..

for some folks it is their religion... For those who dont fit this description, peace! I appreciate your choice and I thank you for blazing a path that makes it easy for people who have allergies to eat a full right diet..

[slackmaster]

529. Buddhist monks are not all vegans either

Tibetans eat meat.

[Matariki]

541. True. And the fact that the Dali Lama eats meat really sticks in *some* people's craw

:-)

[slackmaster]

546. I attended a lecture by the Dalai Lama in about 1978 when I was an undergrad at UCSD

A fellow student naively asked him if vegetarianism was a natural feature of a spiritual life.

The DL replied "Well, since all things are immaterial and food is a thing, then food is immaterial so it really doesn't matter what you eat."

The questioner quietly sat down, duly humbled.

[mainer]

558. Double true! The Tibetan monks we hosted LOVE meat

It was such a disappointment to our vegetarian friends who assumed that Buddhists were all vegetarians. These monks were from a Tibetan monastery and we discovered to our amazement that their favorite place to eat was Burger King. (their #2 choice was Pizza Hut.) They told us that in Tibet they HAVE to eat meat because there's not many alternatives in their climate.

[YOY]

443. Sorry. I'll eat whatever the hell I want

#4: Yes they have feelings...tasty feelings.

#5 is completely wrong.

and the "Soy Alternative": The crap is just gross. I have tried it.

No religion or philosophy is going to tell me what to eat based on whether they think the buck-bucks and moo-moos feelings are going to be hurt. When one manages to pull a Wilbur the Pig on us and asks to be set free I'll wager it will make the news.

Now Organic/Cruelty Free? I'm all about that.

[Stuckinthebush]

480. Damn right!!!

And drive that big ass SUV too! Nobody tells us what to do, damn it! We're 'murikans....Hooha!

[YOY]

523. Who the f*** said anything about an SUV?

Oh wait...eating meat=republican...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Eating meat will not destroy the planet. That much is BS. Petoleum based feuls will. End of story.

[TheWraith]

448. Bollocks.

Sorry, but most of what you just said is untrue.

1. An acre of land grows 5,600 pounds of potatoes, not 20,000. Beef production is actually over 500 pounds per acre. Your other figures are similarly suspect.

2. You falsely invoke bird flu and cancer. Salmonella and e. coli also affect vegetarian food. Most meat contains no preservatives. What you say about fear and adrenaline hormones is completely and totally false.

3. Some food animals are moderately intelligent, yes. And animal cruelty is always bad. But again we see an appeal to emotion over logic, and there's no way to trust your claims when you're obviously interested only in hyping the "horror."

4. Increased demand is not going to decrease the cost of vegetables.

5. Totally false. We and some other primates are omnivorous, not vegetarian.

6. This is nothing more or less than an attempt to disgust the reader and taint the idea of eating meat, as opposed to making a point using logic.

7. World hunger isn't caused by meat production. There's more than sufficient food in the world already; hunger is caused by it not getting to where it's useful. Nobody is starving because of cheeseburgers.

[Snarkturian Clone]

482. From now on, every time someone posts something like this

I'll buy 2 pounds of veal and throw it in the trash. Good job, panthansen. You just made a bunch of calves cruelly suffer and die because you had to evangelize a bunch of false information.

[Akoto]

485. "Human beings are the only primates that eat meat." Bzzrt. Wrong!

Bonobo chimpanzees, while mostly frugivores, have been observed eating insects, squirrels, and even duikers (a kind of small antelope).

The Common Chimpanzee has been been known to form hunting bands which prey upon monkeys for meat.

The Emperor Tamarin eats small critters like tree frogs, in addition to supplementing the rest of its diet with bird eggs.

I don't think that I need to go on, but if you require further proof, simply consult a credible listing of primate species. There are many omnivorous primates which regularly consume meat. It's not strictly an invention of homo sapiens.

[uppityperson]

487. Does increased demand really drive prices down?

"And if the demand for vegetarian food was greater, the cost would go down even further." How?

[bettyellen]

494. incease competition and economy of scale

[Hippo_Tron]

526. You're assuming that economies of scale hold true for the agriculture market

Some disagree with that...

http://www.oxfamamerica.org/whatwedo/where_we_work/united_states/news_publications/food_farm/art2570.html

Also, increased demand doesn't lower prices it raises them. If somehow the increased demand drives the agriculture industry to find ways to produce cheaper or more efficiently then yes prices will go down. But that is particularly unlikely given that the government subsidizes agriculture meaning that inefficient producers can avoid being destruction by market forces.

[bettyellen]

531. well that's how things have been shaking out with organic produce in the last 15 years...

getting more popular, gotten much cheaper. at least in NYC it has.
subsididies aside, there is still a reward for improving effeciency, isn;t there? i beleive some farmers still have an incentive. they are not all getting massive subsidies, some actually work for a living.

[Hippo_Tron]

533. That's because until recently the organic market was very small

And it is true that once the demand is there, you will see tiny industries expand greatly in size and efficiency and prices will go down. But the agriculture industry isn't a tiny industry, it is already a huge industry and there's a certain point where you simply can't just keep making the industry bigger and more efficient until new technology becomes available to do so.

As far as subsidies go, it does indeed drastically reduce the incentives to operating your business efficiently. Efficiency doesn't inherently mean more profit, it means producing at the lowest cost possible. I'm not saying that farmers don't work hard. But if subsidies were removed some farms would go under because they can't become more efficient and some farms would be forced to become more efficient to avoid going under. That means that because of subsidies we are producing inefficiently.

[bettyellen]

534. so what would be stopping technology all of a sudden from innovating?

that suppostion makes no sense to me.
and since food is way overproduced in the us, the trend is going towards trying for better quality, instead of simply more. organic fits in with that. it looks like it' going to be a long time before produce in america is scarce enoughto impact prices.

[Hippo_Tron]

535. I think the original point was about what would happen if everybody became a vegetarian

And what I do know is that demand would likely increase the prices in the short term. Technology doesn't suddenly innovate. I don't know everything about the organic market but I do know that if you have a small industry, you can grow that industry very fast if you have demand and someone gives you the money to invest in technology that already exists.

So if the technology already exists to very efficiently feed 300 million people a vegetarian diet, but we just don't have enough demand that people can invest in it then yes prices would go down if everybody suddenly became a vegetarian. But I don't think that is the case and I think it would take some time to find new technology. I don't know how long we're talking because I don't know that much about agriculture technology. I do know that in some markets it could take a matter of years if not decades.

For example, once we hit peak oil, there is going to be much greater demand for alternative energy sources. That doesn't mean that they are going to become more affordable overnight.

[Ilsa]

499. Been a veg for the last 2 1/2 years. Still doing okay, but I had

a mild craving for "processed" meat of all things recently. The thought of eating ground meat or steak turns me off, though.

[Breeze54]

505. But pepperoni is soooo good!

:9

[Orwellian_Ghost]

508. How does that work in Canada?

Well how it would work, not that it could, is through the use of mass transportation of massive amounts of vegetables and grains from other more southerly locales. As there wouldn't be enough to go around many people would have to give up their slovenly meat-eating ways and accept death as the sacrifice that must be made for the "enlightened."

Not a single aspect of this article addresses the root problems.

[mwb970]

525. I get hassled over this issue by a waitress at my favorite restaurant.

There is a FirstWatch restaurant near me where I have breakfast almost every day (alas, they are closed for the holiday today!). My standard breakfast is orange juice, bacon, eggs, and toast - not really all that radical by my standards.

As a regular, I am friends with all the servers there & we joke back and forth a lot. There is one waitress, however, who has decided to try to "reform" me, that is, to try to force her personal decisions about eating onto me, a stranger. She is a militant vegetarian. When I order my meal (if I'm unlucky enough to get her as my server) she rolls her eyes and makes comments about "dead animals." Sometimes she tells me I will sicken and die.

I am wondering, is this professional behavior? The place has really great bacon which is sometimes the high point of my day (4 pieces, too!). But this waitress sighs loudly and tells me I am poisoning myself. Shouldn't she either get a job at a vegetarian restaurant or just shut up and do her job, even though I am a regular? There is another waitress there who is a vegetarian and she never says a word about it.

Just for the record, I get tested for cholesterol four times a year. The last reading was my best in some time and the doctor told me to "keep doing what you're doing." I plan to.

[Matariki]

542. To tell someone they will 'sicken and die' is very EVIL juju.

What a nasty suggestion to make about the food she is serving you and you are about to eat. You should avoid her at all cost. She's not a good person. I'm quite serious.

[Marrah_G]

544. I would speak to the manager

You are paying for their services. I am sure she is driving away customers with that attitude and the manager may appreciate knowing this.

[slackmaster]

528. Item #5 is not correct

Chimpanzees eat some meat; and obviously our digestive systems are able to process meat.

[Eurobabe]

545. Please don't tell me what to eat. No soy for health reasons,

SOY blocks receptors for thyroid hormone absorption.

And soy consumers, unless you are eating organic soy, be careful, it is chock full of garbage.

:hi:

[OnionPatch]

547. Eating meat causes harm the way we do it now

because of the massive amounts of grains needed, and the overcrowding at the feed lots required for mass-production. I have a hard time being convinced that a few head of cattle grazing on grass, (NOT grain) on well-maintained farmland, causes so much harm. It's the mass-production that causes the harm. If meat were treated as the special and somewhat rare food that it always was until mass-production, we would eat a lot less of it and could get it from environmentally friendly farms instead of feed lots. This would solve a lot of the problems.

[Prefer]

559. friends mother went vegan, now has health problems

didn't have enough iron in her blood.

[Blue-Jay]

563. Good enough evidence for me!

[flvegan]

564. Could be a lack of nutritional knowledge, yes?

Just saying.