A humble request to DUers regarding "Hillary"

[WilliamPitt]

(This is NOT NOT NOT NOT a pro-Clinton-'08 post; I have chosen no candidate to support as of yet)

(EDIT: this is also not a heavy, major issue in my mind, at least not when compared to what else is on the table before us; it's just a thought I've been kicking around a while)

Someone here posted a thread a few weeks ago asking why everyone, not just on DU but all across the web and the news media, calls Clinton "Hillary." Everyone says "Obama" instead of "Barack," says "Edwards" instead of "John," but that same everyone says "Hillary" instead of "Clinton." I don't recall the specifics of the follow-on discussion, but the original post itself was enough to alter my own behavior. I have tried, after that post, to be attentive to my use of names and refer to her as "Clinton," and sometimes as "Senator Clinton" if there is a risk of confusing her with her husband in the discussion.

I humbly request that we on DU try to do the same. Of course, I'm fully aware that I'm asking us to do something the candidate herself isn't doing; to the contrary, "Hillary" is the biggest word on her '08 website:

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/

"HILLARY for President" at the top. "Hillary's Plan for Rural America" is one link, "Why I Support Hillary" is another, "John Lewis Endorses Hillary" is another. In fact, the word "Hillary" without "Clinton" afterwards appears twenty times on that first page by my count, and that's not including invented words like "Hillstars" and "Hillraiser." I am, therefore, asking for something that could very well be totally stupid, something fully contrary to the candidate's own branding strategy...and here's why.

1. Even though she promotes it (see #3 below), "Hillary" feels disrespectful to the office she holds. That post a few weeks ago was spot on - nobody does this with any other candidate. She's a Senator and a former First Lady, and even if you despise her and everything she stands for, the office she holds deserves some respect. Robert Kennedy was a New York Senator, as were William Seward (later Lincoln's SecState) and Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Deference to Senator Clinton honors them deservedly.

2. Furthermore, in regards to the second sentence above, what bothers me most is that we're doing this with the sole female candidate. Yes, she promotes it (see #3 below), but it still does not sit right with me.

3. Clinton adopted the "Hillary" label, I'm mostly sure, because it was foisted upon her by the right-wing attack dogs who besieged her husband's administration. That's how people know her best, because that's how she was labeled during that time, much the way the name "Saddam Hussein" became "Saddam." She and her advisers probably decided to roll with it because the label has already been there for years now, and that's a battle they may have decided not to fight.

I don't judge that decision, mostly because I wouldn't want to have to deal with what she went through in the '90s, nor would I want to have to make that kind of call, but that doesn't mean we have to roll with it ourselves. It feels like yet another instance where the language of the enemy has been allowed to become cemented in our common lexicon, like "The Democrat Party" instead of "The Democratic Party."

So that's my argument: respect for the office, respect for women, and defiance against the manipulation of language by our foes. Again, in no way is this any kind of Clinton endorsement on my part. These matters are far larger and more important than the candidate herself.

Thoughts?

[applegrove]

1. Her signs say "Hillary" so we should too. Follow the leader. .... Note I

tried hard to say Clinton ore the years because I thought it was less sexist too. Now I have given up. Up to her really.

[Whisp]

44. xactly, her signs say Hillary and saying Clinton... erm, which one?

i see no big deal in it at all.

[David Zephyr]

94. William, as the posters above say, her own signs say "Hillary"

I don't see it as disrespectful to her at all.

In fact, she's a single one-name brand now like Elvis, Madonna and Cher.

Just Hillary. That sort of brand name recognition is priceless.

John who? Edwards? McCain?

Bill who? Richardson? Clinton?

Hillary? Everyone knows. Everyone.

[MethuenProgressive]

2. She adopted Rodham Clinton and Hillary to separate herself from President Clinton.

I think.

[mike_c]

3. I agree, and although I fervently hope that Sen. Clinton is not the dem nominee...

...she will be Senator Clinton until we meet and she says "Just call me Hillary, hon."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Your points are well-taken, and I agree in principle,

but sometimes I think it's done partly to distinguish her from Bill. When I hear the name "Clinton" I still think of Bill, and I'd bet that's true of a lot of other people.

And I also recall (being old enough to do so) that Bobby Kennedy was very frequently called "Bobby," even after Jack was assassinated and when he was running for President. So I don't think it's really a gender thing.

[UrbScotty]

5. Excellent points Dictator Pitt (nt)

[WilliamPitt]

8. Awesome.

I haven't heard that one in a while.

Humble requests...from a dictator. Just call me a trend-setter, I guess. :P

[Shakespeare]

68. Eh. Insist on being called Emperor Fabulous instead.

(tip of the had to Eddie Izzard)

[Radio_Lady]

105. Hi, Will. In my mind, when they say Clinton, I think of Bill. He is so much in evidence even now!

A few years ago, I might have agreed with you, because women and blacks were always called by their first names in the South, where I was raised.

Or, they were referred to as MISS, or Missus (Mrs.). So it never bothered me much -- and doesn't even now.

There must have been a great deal of thought put into the decision to put her name on bumper stickers.

Thanks for your post.

[jgraz]

6. If you don't mind, I'll continue using the standard, accepted name for her

"Hawky McPanderface"

[Cha]

53. Nobody can

twist anyone's arm.. and here I thought I was being real polite refering to her as hillary.

[WilliamPitt]

70. Did my OP strike you as "arm-twisting"?

I'm asking earnestly.

[Cha]

84. No not at all..I was being

"funny" cause he said he would just continue with his "Hawky McPanderface"..it was very dry. :)

[smokey nj]

69. .....

:rofl:

[sandnsea]

7. Hillary sounds more pleasant

and personable, which is exactly what Hillary needs which is exactly why Hillary's campaign has chosen to call her Hillary.

Calling her Mrs. Clinton, as I think Edwards does, makes her sound more stark and cold which is why he does it.

It appears there are several ways to look at it.

[cali]

14. I don't like Edwards calling her Mrs. Clinton

that is disrespectful. She's a U.S Senator. Either he should call her Senator or he should call her Hillary. Mrs Clinton makes her sound like an appendage.

[Ghost in the Machine]

52. People are worthy of respect just for an office or title that they hold?

And to think, all my life people have had to earn my respect...

[cali]

54. It's incredibly sexist, more than anything else.

and yes, people often use a title. Medical doctors are usually called Doctor, and Senators are usually referred to as Senator. Let me ask you something: If you're introduced to someone at a gathering as Doctor so and so, do you start calling him/her Mr or Mrs or Ms? How about in Court, does the judge have to earn a lawyers respect before he/she starts calling him/her, your honor?

Your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[WilliamPitt]

108. The idea isn't to respect the person

But the office they hold.

Elected officials come and go, but the position has history. The office is deserving of respect. It is policy-neutral, and holds no opinions. It is a position, and by giving respect to the position, those who assume that position will hopefully understand what is expected of them because of that respect.

Like America itself, it's the idea that counts...and respecting the idea has a chance of strengthening the integrity of the reality. The office, in the American ideal, is far bigger than any who do or have occupied it.

To respect the office is to hope for honor and integrity. It doesn't happen often enough, and many dishonorable people have fouled many offices, but the idea behind respecting the office is bigger than any of its transient holders.

I'm willing to hope, and willing to offer respect to a good idea.

[Ghost in the Machine]

109. I can buy that. Well said, Mr. William Pitt

:hi:

[WilliamPitt]

110. Thanks!

:toast:

[ronnykmarshall]

82. In the 1984 VP debate ...

Asshole Daddy Bush refused to call Geradine Ferraro as "Congresswoman Ferraro". Instead he kept calling her "Mrs. Ferraro". Gerry had more class and called the prick "Vice-President Bush". Of course we all know what the Quaker Oaks hag called Gerry.

[BootinUp]

28. i agree. n/t

[billyoc]

9. Her own branding trumps any thoughts I might have on the subject.

Hillary it is.

(I'm endorsing Edwards)

[musette_sf]

10. i always refer to her as "Senator Clinton"

i agree that referring to her as "Clinton" does confuse one with President Clinton.

i also agree with referring to her as "Hillary" is not respectful in light of her position as a Senator and as a Democratic presidential candidate.

(i also do not support her candidacy, and hope that i do not have to hold my nose and vote for her, and also hope that our candidate will be someone other than her. but i also believe in referring to her and addressing her in a respectful manner.)

[Kurovski]

11. "Senator Clinton is my girl."

doesn't sound quite the same as "Hillary is my girl."

But to be fair with myself, I more often than not refer to her as "Senator Clinton."

You'll never take back "Hillary". I think even the campaign is fine with it.

[WilliamPitt]

18. "I think even the campaign is fine with it."

If they're not, the campaign web designer should get his/her ass fired immediately.

:)

[Kurovski]

30. Exactly. It's not unwanted. (nt)

[WilliamPitt]

33. Apparently, neither is "Democrat Party," given how often Dems use the term.

Doesn't mean I have to play along, ya know?

[Kurovski]

39. Yes, the right-wing used her first name to show disrespect during the Clinton years.

It was actually smart of the campaign to turn it into a positive.

But I'm with you when you get right down to it: "Senator" Clinton sounds best to me.

[Taverner]

12. She uses it so I do

If she changes her placards to 'Clinton' (which I've noticed is happening...may be a tactical thing, ya know? Come out as Clinton at first, and you're riding the hubby's coattails. Change it midstream, and you get the benefits without the drawbacks.) then I'll go by that.

FTR, I'm actually supporting all Democrats. They're a good crop this time around, so I'm not sold on any of them. Any of them would be good to me. I'll probably vote for Obama though.

[stellanoir]

13. Okay Pitt

point well taken.

More to the point, as long as we know who the heck we are talking about, first name or last, isn't that all that matters really. . .?

Still I take great umbrage over people saying quote (the verb) instead of quotation (the noun) so go figure.

I guess we all have different obscure things that get our knickers in a twist really.

[Kagemusha]

15. It's not up to me to decide whether Inuit or Eskimo is more correct.

They ask to be called Inuit. Senator Clinton asks to be called Hillary.

If she's elected she'll be called President Clinton, just as the current occupant is called President Bush.

And I grew out of battles over manipulating language fought by manipulating one's OWN language years ago. I'll speak in plain English, and to the extent Sen. Clinton does the same, she is engaging in intelligent politics.

[WilliamPitt]

20. Well put.

[marmar]

16. Honestly, when I see "Clinton," I think Bill still......

I'm not the point in my conscientiousness at which Hillary has replaced Bill when the word Clinton appears alone.

[orpupilofnature57]

17. Calling her Hillary is the least of her problems ,her waffling every other sentence is..

and She is appeasing the same people that put her and President Clinton through hell ,I choose to call her a Centrist.

[napi21]

19. William, I understand your point, and in theory it's right, but

I've also heard the statement made that there are VERY FEW people who have ever gotten so popular, and so well known that they are instantly recognized by only ONE NAME. Cher, Operah, and Hillary.

Please think about that. I honestly don't see it as derogatory at all.

[WilliamPitt]

21. True

Check out post 15 above; good points made there, too.

[Chovexani]

22. I agree.

I think it's a subtle form of misogyny.

[mitchum]

23. That's why I refer to her as TeamClinton, Inc

[BootinUp]

24. I sort of disagree

I don't think the campaign decided to use her first name because of the RW noise machine. Rather I believe it is a marketing gimmick to soften her image.

I use both her first name and last, possibly her first name more often, it feels natural precisely because her campaign established it in the arena.

Its a non-issue to me I guess and a matter of personal preference and perhaps context at this point.

[CT_Progressive]

25. Actually, Will, we ran a candidate here who went by her first name on all campaign literature.

So, its not all that uncommon.

Just FYI.

p.s. "here" being in CT, if that wasn't obvious by my handle. :)

[blues90]

26. No worries from me

I try to stay away from the far to early presidential hopefuls as possible . I have no idea who will win or why at this point or who I would even vote for at this point . It's just to early IMHO .

If she chooses to be called Hillary then let it be so .

[Parche]

27. Why do you hate Hillary

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :hi:

[kestrel91316]

29. This is not unintentional, and is meant to knock her down a peg.

Some people over the years have done this to me as a medical professional. It is customary and normal for clients to call their veterinarian "Doctor so-and-so", particularly early in the relationship. When a brand new client asks me right away if they can call me by my first name, or worse yet does it without asking, it puts me off more than a little. I earned the title, and to use it shows just a tiny bit of respect for my professional expertise and standing.

Down the road if people want to call me "Doctor kestrel", that's perfectly ok. But never just "kestrel" unless they are personal friends that I see socially.

It's just good manners. I know this attitude calls for hateful screeds by the vet haters here on DU. Fire away (you know who you are, and you know I will ignore your screeds).

[WilliamPitt]

31. Soldiers salute the rank, not the person.

Kinda how I think of this.

:toast:

[me b zola]

32. I gotta disagree

As mentioned up thread, her own campaign uses Hillary on their signage. I would also like to mention that we often call Kucinich simply by his first name, Dennis.

I see this as a non-issue. :hi:

[WilliamPitt]

34. It's totally a non-issue, given what else is on the table.

Just a thought I've had cooking. :hi:

[hfojvt]

35. the bumpersticker she sent me says "Re-elect Hillary"

I think there are a couple of reasons.
1) so that we are not confused as to which Clinton is being talked about.
2) I don't think she really wants to be called Clinton. She went by the name Rodham until Bill's campaign for President started and for 8 years she was Hillary Rodham Clinton instead of Hillary Clinton. If she had her druthers, she'd rather still be Hillary Rodham for President. So I think she'd rather be called Hillary, which is her birth name rather than Clinton, which is a name forced on her by patriarchal tradition (sure Hill, it's much better to take the name Rodham, which was a name forced on your mother by patriarchal tradition :crazy:)

But I like the name Clinton, since it lends itself to the acronym ABC.

Then again, the name Hillary lends itself to HHH for Hugh Hillary Haters.

Wasn't Bobby Kennedy called Bobby rather than Robert, much less Kennedy?

[Breeze54]

36. I use 'HRC' or 'DK' or 'BO' or ....

you get the idea. ;)

What does it matter anyway? :shrug: SHE uses Hillary!!



:rofl:

[CoffeeCat]

37. Lets end this now and just call her...

"Lieberchick"

'makes thing easier and it's kinda catchy!

:toast:

[Devlzown]

38. I agree.

Although I'll never be a supporter of Hillary Clinton, something doesn't sit right with me when I see others refer to her by her first name. I've heard the word "Hillary" come out of others' mouths as if it were the worst sort of curse word toward a woman ever since Bill Clinton took office in 1993. It's just the manner in which it's said. I'm sure the reasons for the Clinton campaign to use her first name so prominently are various and sundry, but I don't think it's a good idea. Apparently some people involved with her campaign do not realize that her first name is polarizing and downright scary to a lot of folks.

[LostinVA]

40. I agree -100% - I usually call her HRC, to differentiate her from Bill Clinton

on edit: Even though I agree, even I catch myself calling her "Hillary" from time to time.

[Disturbed]

42. I always refer to her as Sen. Clinton.

I hope that she does not get nominated as the Dem Pres. Candidate but if she does then I
suspect that most Dems will vote for her in the General. She would need a whole lot of Indie votes even she received 95% of Dem votes. I feel that this is why she is trying to appeal to the center.

[ozone_man]

41. To differentiate from Bill.

It has nothing to do with sexism. You usually are referred to (casually) by one name, last or first. In her case Clinton is not specific.

If it's a formal discussion, then certainly Hillary Clinton or Senator Clinton is appropriate. But this is DU. :)

[Boojatta]

43. "that's a battle they may have decided not to fight."

Another possibility is that they have decided to fight it, but they have a greater desire to make the fight challenging than to win the fight.

[pnwmom]

45. Maybe the reason for the ambiguity is that

when supporters call her Hillary, it's because she uses the name and it feels . . . supportive.

However, when bashers call her by her first name, it sounds -- and usually is -- disrespectful.

So, I tend to agree -- as a general rule it would be more respectful, and less sexist, if we treated the lone female candidate and the male candidates the same way, referring to her as Clinton, as Sen. Clinton, or as HRC.

[Boojatta]

46. "This is NOT NOT NOT NOT a pro-Clinton-'08 post"

I suggest that you add or remove one "NOT."

[orpupilofnature57]

49. Yes it is ,and WilliamPitt has more respect for the Centrist than she....

does for herself ,God Bless him.

[Boojatta]

51. You should say that William has more respect for the

Centrist than she has for herself. Maybe she'll start a thread on DU about how WilliamPitt should be referred to.

[WilliamPitt]

72. "how WilliamPitt should be referred to"

"Assbag" usually works.

Or, per an above post, "Dictator Pitt."

;)

[orpupilofnature57]

89. A Conscientious Observer.

[orpupilofnature57]

90. Thanks, your absolutely right!! I'm too horny to shit on Hill the Centrist..

I'm talking like Shrub ,thanks again.

[ozone_man]

62. Lol!

A misapplication of Boolean logic.

Even engineers are taught not to use double negatives, let alone triple or quadruple negatives. Unless they have extra gates and just want to add a time delay. ;)

[WilliamPitt]

71. Too late for editing.

:)

[antigop]

47. Bernie Sanders is now Senator Bernie Sanders -- his website says " About Bernie"

The banner at the top says "Senator Bernie Sanders", but that's about it.
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/about/

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/comments/

Are people still referring to him as "Bernie" or "Bernie Sanders"?

[antigop]

48. and I'll add that I'll call someone whatever name I choose... so there. n/t

[Kurovski]

50. Even "Billary"?

:-)

[antigop]

66. I don't call her "Billary" -- but if someone else wants to.... n/t

[Blashyrkh]

55. I disagree with the premise of point 3. The "Clinton" has been dumped because it's tainted.

Shouldn't "RW attack dogs" being doing their best to link her to, what they see as, the eight years of Hell when her husband reigned?

They won't, which only further indicates her position as next in line.

[boston bean]

56. Would you please go away again!?

can you cut down on the verbosity in your posts.

I can barely finish reading them.

[KoKo]

57. Do you "Buy INTO" Mark Penns Re-Packaging of Hillary for Bill Clinton/MonicaGate?

Are you one of those who recognizes the EXQUISITE stuff that can be done if you get the amount of Money that BILL/HILLARY have raked in promiting HILLARY...HILLARY!!! to cover up that it's BILL's "SECOND CHANCE?" Just like "Little Boots Bush" ran to "AVENGE HIS POPPY" and to REMAKE THE BUSH NAME..."Little, Little Fem BOOTS HILLARY" runs "because she STANDS BY HER MAN WHO MADE HER RICH AND FAMOUS!"

The Hypocricy is OVERWHELMING...and the SMELL of the FISH ROTTING FROM HEAD...seems to mean the FISH ROTS FROM THE TAIL! (being that Dems are Now the TAIL having lost their power since "BILL" came into power and we lost "OVERSITE of our CONGRESS!" GACK!!!!!!!!!!!

(on edit: since I know we have animosity between us...but sometimes you do hit some good points...I had to let loose knowing your vitriol will go on the attack..but it was important to me to say to honor my own conscience...and since you asked...since you asked.)

[Nederland]

58. Hillary calls herself Hillary

End of discussion.

She chooses the name she wishes to be known by, not you.

[bigtree]

59. I'll continue to use whatever fits my mood. I do think it's the uniqueness of her name

. . . which allows that identification, like Barak.

[H2O Man]

60. I think Senator Clinton

is the appropriate way to refer to her.

I have not decided on any one candidate that I will vote for in the primary. I have made a mental check-list of positive and negative attributes of each of the democratic candidates. I have sent small contributions to several of their campaigns.

In the past, I donated to Senator Clinton's campaigns. I have not contributed to her presidential campaign yet.

I will, of course, support the party's nominee for the executive office.

On the topic of Senator Clinton, I must say that I found parts of her performance last night to be very good. I do not care for her position on Iraq and Iran, and continue to have serious concerns with her on this. However, I will give her credit for working with NYS officials in opposition to a proposed power line from Marcy to NYC. It is being pushed by interests who are connected to Karl Rove, and is opposed by upstate democrats and republicans. Senator Clinton is clearly opposed to the administration's corporate friends on this.

I'd also remind people that she won re-election by one of the largest majorities that any senate candidate has won in our state's history. She won counties that two of the people who used to hold the same seat -- RFK and DP Moynihan -- did not do well in.

I can appreciate the feelings of people who support her, and who oppose her. It is far too early to seriously believe that she has the nomination wrapped up. Thus, I think that your proposal that people try to discuss her and her campaign in objective terms has the potential to help people make informed decisions.

[WilliamPitt]

74. "I will, of course, support the party's nominee for the executive office."

:toast:

[Mike Nelson]

61. She's not Clinton (Bill)...

She's Hillary. For better or for worse...

[robinlynne]

63. Your reasoning is great. I think Clinton immediately brings Bill to mind,

while Obama, Kucinich, Edwards, et al bring the candidates to mind.

[sniffa]

64. i suggest caLLing her something eLse

[WilliamPitt]

73. It was great seeing you the other day.

How was the rally? I was pissed that I missed it.

[sniffa]

77. good to see you too

sorry we didn't get to hang out too much. name a bar some other time, and we're there.

the raLLy was wicked pissah! we had a great time. we marched behind the brass band (and the guy on stiLts) and heLd our sign, and cLapped, chanted and sang (and i danced a bunch) for the whoLe route. many bystanders watched and took pictures, but quite a few actuaLLy cLapped whiLe sporting Large grins. that made me happy... though i wish they wouLd have jumped in if they couLd have.

we made a few quick and gone friends throughout the day based on where we were marching or where we were standing in Line, etc.
bi-baby aLso snagged us a kucinich sign for our porch, AND.....

a 911trugh dvd. it was free, so we took it as a Lark. oh, and we were toLd to googLe, "chemtraiLs." Love these peopLe who truLy make us Look bad, and totaLLy distract from the issue.

[WilliamPitt]

79. I heard that Kucinich and Medea Benjamin were going to be there.

Did they come?

[sniffa]

81. if they did, it was before we were there

we reached the stage, just as they were exhorting peopLe to form a a Line to march. on the pLus side, code pink was on the stage speaking as we were approaching, and i'm pretty sure it was the woman who viciousLy assauLted condi.

the raLLy was apparentLy going on since noon. :(

[cuke]

65. It's a sign of affection

and plenty of presidents and candidates have been referenced by their first name.

[lonestarnot]

67. Ok. But I have not, nor will I spare bushitler or the big dickhole.

[scarletwoman]

75. I refer to her as H. Clinton. It avoids both the confusion w/ Bill AND the "Hillary" thing.

I would point out, however, that lots and lots of Kucinich supporters refer to him as "Dennis" -- so "Hillary" is not actually the ONLY case of a first name being used to identify a candidate.

I'm not big on the elected office title thing, either. Neither Biden or Dodd or Obama are regularily referred to as "Senator Whomever" in the context of the campaign, nor is Kucinich usually referred to as "Congressman Kucinich", or Richardson referred to as "Governor Richardson".

When addressing any of these folks directly, or introducing them before a audience, it IS proper to use their official titles -- but when referring to them in the third person in the context of their presidential campaigns, it seems rather superfluous.

Just my 2 cents. I think using "H. Clinton" is a perfectly reasonable solution to all objections.

sw

[Lilith Velkor]

93. I sometimes refer to Dennis as "Koochie-Woochie."

Gawd, I can't believe I'm admitting this in public. :blush:

As for the Senator, I tend to refer to her as Clinton when speaking, and HRC in print.

And as long as I'm saying something kind of embarassing, I might as well go ahead and admit I like the name "Hilldog" 'cause it sounds so gangsta.

:hide:

[senseandsensibility]

76. I agree and have posted this on DU

and was promptly told to "lighten up."

[Inspired]

78. Oh please, why do you care anyway? n/t

[Cleita]

80. With all due respects Will to your sensitivity on this matter,

even though I am a feminist in wanting equal rights and opportunity for women, we woman are different in many ways. We also are different in the way we want respect shown in how we are addressed. I don't want to be called by my last name except in a locker room. Guys get called Obama, Edwards, Kucinich, etc.. We women want to be called by our first names or at least have a Ms., Miss or Mrs. in front of our surnames.

In Hillary's case, she wants to distinguish herself from the other President Clinton and rightfully so by using her first name. When she first married Bill, she didn't even use her married name but her maiden name Rodham to assert her equality in the marriage. I believe calling her Hillary as in Hillary the candidate is very respectful. If she becomes President then she will be the second President Clinton just and George is the second President Bush.

[ronnykmarshall]

83. I agree.

I remember in 1992 right after Dianne Feinstien became a senator, she asked Larry King to address her as "Dianne". I laughed because as a San Franciscan we always called her "Dianne" when she was mayor of the city. I remember shaking her hand the night she won the Democratic nomination for Gov in 1990, I said "Dianne, I'm so happy for you." ... she kissed my cheek and said "Thank you so much!".

[EFerrari]

101. It's funny because "Hilary" seems too familiar but "Clinton"

seems too brusque. "Senator Clinton" is a little too formal and "HRC" is a teenager's texting.

A puzzle. :)

[NMDemDist2]

85. I too, call her Sen. Clinton or just Clinton when speaking of several

of the candidates.

It struck me as sexist to call her "Hillary"

[NewHampster]

86. Mr. Pitt

You are always a gentleman but I feel respect and civility are terms many of our DU brethren have forgotten.

I hope your effort is successful.

[mmonk]

87. If you are going to refer to her as Clinton consistently, put

the Senator in front of it (though I've been guilty of just saying Clinton). Otherwise, it makes the mind pause and then to read further to make sure of which Clinton. Secondly, I don't hold an office in reverance as in something holy. I only hold truth, reality, and freedom in reverance (other than my family, past and present). Everything the enemy has put forth in language and deed has become standard and of which "Hillary" pales in comparison to such as torture, unitary executive, and pre-emptive war. I plan to use all of it against them with every fiber of my body.

[undeterred]

88. When I hear Clinton I think of President Bill Clinton

and that's never going to change. Its better and less confusing for her to go by Hillary, and I don't think its disrespectful at all.

Those are my thoughts.

[orpupilofnature57]

91. Then Bill's Hill ? What would her honest ( and not acceptable ) thoughts

be if it was the Main reason she would be Elected ?

[hyphenate]

92. I noticed this one, too

and it is, IMHO, just very sexist--even if HRC does it herself. Most of us don't call Nancy Pelosi "Nancy" or Senators Boxer or Feinstein by their first names most of the time, and I feel if we're going to call HRC "Hillary" we should called Edwards "John", Obama "Barack", etc. Calling someone by their first name denotes a certain amount of familiarity, though, and in the case of HRC, that is bad. However, in that same way, I think too many at DU use HRC's first name as a way to denigrate her in a fashion, even if it's a lot more subtle than calling her every four lettered words out there.

As a PS: We do it to someone like Rice because some of us don't really respect her, or any other woman Repub.

[flvegan]

95. It's brand recognition, Will

That's it, that's all.

[antigop]

97. DING! DING! DING! WE HAVE A WINNA!

http://www.burson-marsteller.com/Practices_And_Specialties/Pages/Brand_Marketing.aspx

[WilliamPitt]

98. It is now.

It started as something intended to be derogatory, and was so successful that it is now her "brand."

She's running with it, which makes practical sense, but I don't feel comfortable playing along with it. As some sage once said, "Words mean things." The "Democrat Party" is another example, but this is also about how and why the word "liberal" got turned into something shameful for liberal politicians to say out loud. That's another sucessful re-definition, and it changes the whole landscape. Words mean things.

Just mho, of course. :hi:

[omega minimo]

96. Respect for women is always welcome on DU

:hi:

[Nederland]

114. Does respect for women

...include respecting their own choices? Isn't it a curious way to respect women to say: "Hey, I know that you prefer to be called Hillary for reasons that I understand, but I think its better to call you something else, so that's what I'm going to do."

Doesn't it smack of RW paternalism? Telling a women what good for her even after she's expressed an opinion to the contrary?

[WilliamPitt]

124. Hard to argue with that point.

What is more disrespectful?

Refusing to use the name she has chosen to be identified by?

Or acting first-name familiar with a person I've never met, a person who occupies an office of high honor and thus has a title of respect?

You make an excellent point, but I was brought up to use formal names/titles with everyone, out of respect, until I'm asked to call them by their first name. Sir, Ma'am, Mr., Mrs., Ms., Senator, Congressman/woman, Governor, etc.

Gonna have to stew on this for a bit. Thanks for making that point so well.

[omega minimo]

131. yup

:think:

[1932]

99. How would we distinguish her from Bill? "Rodham Clinton"?

[yowzayowzayowza]

100. "I like Ike!"

[leftofthedial]

102. Yessir, Pitt

[WilliamPitt]

104. See post #5

You're way late.

[leftofthedial]

112. despite my tardiness, you make a good point

I've been trying to use last names only for all prominent politicians. Other than the current white house squatters, I try to use their titles as well. "Senator Clinton" clarifies that I mean Hillary, not Bill. I can't bring myself to refer to "President Bush" though.

[WilliamPitt]

113. "I can't bring myself to refer to "President Bush" though."

It goes without saying that the person holding the office must gain that office legitimately in order to be worthy of that office's honor and respect.

Disrespecting Bush, especially by refusing to use the word "president" when he is concerned, is a great act of respect towards the office of the presidency.

I think so, anyway. :toast:

[leftofthedial]

127. king george is not satisfied with any title short of "your majesty"

methinks


:toast:

[Lucinda]

103. It was her choice, and I am in agreement with it

She was badgered until she added Clinton to Hillary Rodham. And Hillary Rodham Clinton is a bit much for a campaign. If she wants to run as Hillary its peachy keen with me.

[Basileus Basileon]

106. I will continue my current policy:

1. Refer to her as Sen. Clinton when referencing her actions or office as a Senator, as per her office requires.
2. Refer to her as Hillary when colloquially referring to her '08 Presidential campaign, as per her apparent desire.
3. Refer to her as President Clinton (or President H. Clinton in event of possible ambiguity) when referring to her future office.
4. Refer to her as HRC when any of the above seems to set a wrong tone.

[JVS]

107. Wait, so we're not supposed to call her Ofbill?

;-)

This is so confusing!

[Katherine Brengle]

117. Interesting Atwood reference.

I enjoyed it anyway.

:)

[kimmylavin]

135. Me too!

Although I must admit that when I read the book, I didn't get that concept until WAY after I should have! :blush:

[avrdream]

111. Reasonable thinking there.

For me (and I am a supporter of HRC) it has been easier to write Hillary because it does distinguish her from Bill but I really understand and appreciate your point.

I'm a woman and don't feel like it is disrespectful to call her Hillary but men might feel differently.

Peace.

[Katherine Brengle]

115. I have to agree - I wish she wouldn't use it and I don't like seeing it used.

It is disrespectful and I don't like this "gentler, softer" image attempt. I don't want her to be gentle or soft, I want her to lead.

[librechik]

116. it's dememening, but it does easily distinguish her from the other Clinton

and I feel like I know her. I would feel comfortable calling her Hill instead of Senator Clinton, (though I probably wouldn't)

Nevertheless, there is a certain degree of minimalization going on. The Foxsnots call her Mrs Clinton to demean her. They aren't comfortable calling her Hillary.

[Stephanie]

118. "Hillary" is a BRAND NAME and by using it you are promoting her brand.

Journalists should be neutral and use the same protocol for all candidates. Sen. Obama, Mr. Obama, Barack Obama. Sen. Clinton, Mrs. Clinton, Hillary Clinton. Her campaign deliberately designed the brand name and promotes the idea that she is a one-name celebrity, like Cher, but we don't have to capitulate to their agenda. It's a deliberate effort to separate her identity from her husband, and there's nothing wrong with that, with having a brand name, a slogan, except that it's not fair for journalists to participate.

My earlier comment on this >>>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=625240

[Ninga]

119. I find your post, curious. In the age of shorthand, and acronyms, you attest that a

title is a reflection of respect?

I am 64 years old, and have come to learn that tone, characterization, and words are the fodder of respect and/or the lack thereof.

I have been addressed more than I care to remember, by those using my title, and have felt more demeaned than could be imagined.

[Midlodemocrat]

120. Well, here's my middle aged take on this.

I think referring to her as Hillary is more respectful than referring to her as Clinton. I know that is sexist, but it does kind of bother me to see women referred to by their last names only, without any kind of surname.

I do have a personal reason for this, which I won't share and recognize that I am more than likely totally in the minority here.

[mod mom]

121. I believe it comes from the prominence of her husband and confusion over which

Clinton one is referring to at any given time. If Bill Clinton wasn't in the spotlight and the former president, it wouldn't be an issue. As a women (although not one that supports Hillary Clinton), I do not find it offensive.

I frequently read/write "RUN AL RUN!" and by no means imply disrespect.

[gollygee]

122. Thank you

I've posted about this too but no one pays attention to women when we talk about this. We're just being hysterical.

Your post seems to have made some kind of impact. I've seen many more "Clinton" and "Sen. Clinton" and fewer "Hillary" posts today.

[Catherine Vincent]

123. No worries.

Soon it will be President Hillary Clinton. :)

[HamdenRice]

125. I disagree. To be fair, we also often call the Big Dog "Bill"

I don't think it's sexist. It's because they are a political couple, "Bill and Hillary." We have to use their first names just to distinguish them from each other.

We call her Hillary to distinguish her from Bill. Unlike, say, Al Gore, who everyone refers to as "Gore," we still refer to the former president as "Bill."

I think Hillary realizes it would be confusing to refer to herself as "Clinton" when Bill Clinton is omnipresent in everyone's mind. It would also tend to make people think that she is campaigning to restore "the Clinton presidency" rather than start a new administration with herself as head.

I suppose we could call her "Mrs. Clinton" and Bill "the president" but they have always marketed themselves with a certain informality.

[tom_paine]

126. Holy crap! You are 100% CORRECT, Will.

I will be damned, but you are correct. Just like ALL Bushie Propaganda, it is now "convntional wisdom" and "conventional lexicon".

Once again, we accept the frames. Hell, once again the VICTIM accepts the frame, and I wonder how many Democrats even today (especially if they are not active in the Party, call it the "Democrat Party" for similar reasons...tens of thousands undoubtedly and at least)

How often has that happened in the last two decades? Thank you for this post, Will. I am no Hillary supporter either (though I will vote for her if she is the Democratic Nominee, as I am sure you and tens of millions will, too), but what you are saying is so right, and follows the Bushie-Orwellian Linguistic Reframing and Destruction Playbook to a TEE.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:toast:

[Jim Lane]

128. I've also seen "Rudy" used often, on DU and elsewhere. (n/t)

[uppityperson]

129. Cool.

You get less argument and name calling than I did. Thanks for thinking about it Will.
Sincerely, Ms.Uppityperson

[woo me with science]

130. True respect for a woman or any human being

includes addressing her as she would prefer to be addressed.

[WilliamPitt]

134. But that's one issue I'm not certain of.

Does she prefer it, or did she settle for it because it was inescapable?

[kimmylavin]

136. And that's what it comes down to for me, William.

I got married over a year ago.
I kept my name.

My family ABSOLUTELY refuses to accept this.
They send mail to me addressed in the way I hate the most: "Mrs. HisFirst HisLast", as if I am only an extension of him, and my existence before the wedding has been negated.
I had to go to the hospital, and my mother insisted on checking me in as a person who doesn't even exist!
My legal documents reflect my choice, and my family routinely ignores it.

So we know that Senator Clinton was Hillary Rodham, who then added the Clinton to conform to what society said were proper forms of address for a wife. Who's to say this sort of thinking didn't go in to the choice of Hillary over Clinton?

For me, I go with Senator Clinton - she earned it.

[robcon]

132. Wow, at least we're working on the important issues!

Not!

[WilliamPitt]

133. Thanks for kicking the thread.

I know, it's tough...how do you post some snark without kicking/promoting the target of your ire?

Conundrum.

;)

[deacon]

137. I think "hawk" fits her best. n/t

[QueenOfCalifornia]

138. Oh shit Will...

You want my thoughts? You really overthought this one. Hillary wants to be known as Hillary. With gigantic issues looming, why are you giving this any time at all?