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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 12:56 AM Original message |
Naomi Wolf's "The End of America"--noble goal, lousy argument |
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Dark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 12:59 AM Response to Original message |
1. Hold on, let me get the popcorn. |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:00 AM Response to Reply #1 |
2. HAHA! |
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Dark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:01 AM Response to Reply #2 |
3. This thread is going to get pretty interesting. |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:07 AM Response to Reply #3 |
7. Whoa! |
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Dark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:10 AM Response to Reply #7 |
10. Look on it as a challenge. |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:12 AM Response to Reply #10 |
12. I need a break after just finishing this one: |
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:13 AM Response to Reply #12 |
13. WOW that's incredible |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:15 AM Response to Reply #13 |
15. Thread hijack! |
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:16 AM Response to Reply #15 |
16. Well I don't mind seeing your artwork |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:17 AM Response to Reply #15 |
18. No worries--I don't see any velvet ropes around this thread |
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Dark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:39 AM Response to Reply #12 |
36. If only he'd run for prez. |
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Richard Steele (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:02 AM Response to Reply #1 |
4. Heh. |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:09 AM Response to Reply #4 |
8. COOL! |
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:10 AM Response to Reply #8 |
9. ah, how cute!!!!!! GOOD WORK |
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Dark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:11 AM Response to Reply #8 |
11. I think it was actually Snowe who played medical officer with Jeff gannon |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:13 AM Response to Reply #11 |
14. Tony Snow? |
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Dark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:27 AM Response to Reply #14 |
22. I can never remember which one is Snow and which one is Snowe. |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:30 AM Response to Reply #22 |
26. Olympia Snowe? |
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Dark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:41 AM Response to Reply #26 |
37. Wow. |
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:03 AM Response to Original message |
5. Coming from somebody who hasn't read the book |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:05 AM Response to Reply #5 |
6. Would you say America under FDR or Lincoln was "the end of America?" |
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tom_paine (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:26 AM Response to Reply #6 |
21. Did Lincoln or FDR start a War Without End? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:28 AM Response to Reply #21 |
24. But you'll note that isn't one of Wolf's steps. My point is FDR and Lincoln fit her description |
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tom_paine (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:54 AM Response to Reply #24 |
45. Ah, but my point was your use of a faulty historical analogy |
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doublethink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-16-07 02:08 AM Response to Reply #24 |
63. She addresses that issue in Part Two ...... |
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greyshade (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:16 AM Response to Original message |
17. Heard her on NPR, haven't read the book yet... |
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:18 AM Response to Reply #17 |
19. Nah you, me and her are alarmists |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:31 AM Response to Reply #19 |
27. Alarm is good! But dishonest comparisons will encourage people to dismiss such warnings. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:18 AM Response to Reply #17 |
20. That's why I think her goal is noble. Erring on the side of caution is a good idea |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:27 AM Response to Reply #20 |
23. Good point, but |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:29 AM Response to Reply #23 |
25. That's the dilemma of activism--what level of shock value hurts the message rather than promotes it? |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:35 AM Response to Reply #25 |
31. I say leave the 'shock and awe' to nuts like me. |
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WillyT (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:35 AM Response to Reply #20 |
30. Oh Hell Man... History And Patterned Behavior Is All We Have To Go On !!! |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:37 AM Response to Reply #30 |
34. But are these good predictors of fascism? I just pointed out two cases where they weren't |
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WillyT (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:45 AM Response to Reply #34 |
40. So... Please Describe What YOU'D Have Too See, To Nip Fascism In The Bud ??? |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:47 AM Response to Reply #40 |
41. The point is, we don't have have to assume these behaviors always lead to fascism to denounce them |
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WillyT (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:53 AM Response to Reply #41 |
43. That's A Nice Essay, What Do YOU Have To See Before You Sound The Alarm For Family And Friends ??? |
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tom_paine (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 02:06 AM Response to Reply #43 |
49. Some personal impact on his personal life, of course. |
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cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 11:57 AM Response to Reply #49 |
58. That's simply mischaracterization |
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EstimatedProphet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 11:47 AM Response to Reply #43 |
56. His point is that there's nothing wrong with sounding the alarm |
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cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 11:54 AM Response to Reply #41 |
57. That's it. Right there. |
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tom_paine (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:57 AM Response to Reply #34 |
46. My God, I am choking on irony. Literally CHOKING on it! |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-16-07 01:58 AM Response to Reply #46 |
62. You just proved my point--when you allow facile comparison, you can get absurd results. |
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Jim Sagle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:31 AM Response to Original message |
28. Thank you for your unconcern. |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:43 AM Response to Reply #28 |
38. To me, this argument needs to be made as well as possible. Because it's important |
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leftofthedial (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:32 AM Response to Original message |
29. comparable does not equal identical |
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jpgray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:35 AM Response to Reply #29 |
32. But her standards are -so- generalized, states that did -not- turn fascist qualify by her "steps" |
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leftofthedial (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 02:20 AM Response to Reply #32 |
51. so, it is your contention that what is happening in America, Iraq, Gitmo, etc. |
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cuke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 02:31 AM Response to Reply #32 |
52. Besides, torture isn't wrong because it leads to fascism |
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bridgit (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:35 AM Response to Original message |
33. whatever you say... |
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Dark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:38 AM Response to Original message |
35. Since I kind of thread-jacked, I'll post something a little more substantitive. |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:44 AM Response to Reply #35 |
39. It's a shell game. |
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Dark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:59 AM Response to Reply #39 |
47. There's only one way to quickly end the war. |
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:53 AM Response to Reply #35 |
44. One of the characteristics of authoritarian states are fixed elections |
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Dark (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 02:01 AM Response to Reply #44 |
48. I don't deny that the repubs fucked with the elections. |
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nadinbrzezinski (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 02:12 AM Response to Reply #48 |
50. I gave you an explanation |
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cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 12:07 PM Response to Reply #50 |
59. It would be nice if you actually |
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Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 01:51 AM Response to Original message |
42. She clearly states that she is not comaparing Bush to Hitler |
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cuke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 02:36 AM Response to Reply #42 |
53. I suspect that jpgray may be underestimating Wolf's argument |
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Luminous Animal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 02:55 AM Response to Reply #53 |
54. You are probably right... |
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cali (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 12:08 PM Response to Reply #53 |
60. i think you may be right |
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Gonzo Gardener (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Oct-14-07 04:17 AM Response to Original message |
55. ...an encroaching authoritarian state |
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greyshade (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-16-07 01:12 AM Response to Reply #55 |
61. Free and fair elections are going to by my yardstick. |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Oct-16-07 02:27 AM Response to Original message |
64. I think you need to read it again. |
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