Hip Hop -- what am I missing?

[PurpleChez]

This is actually a serious question. No...really...it is. So, if you're just gonna tell me what an awful person I am for not "getting it" -- you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I really want to hear from people with sincere answers.

Now...I'm not talking about the music. For the record, I don't like rap music. And I don't like top-40 country, or opera, or Britney-Pop. Of course, I'm an old fart now, but I didn't like it when I was 12 either. But the music isn't the point. It's the culture that surrounds it. For twenty years I have read reviews and commentaries in which folks try to portray hip hop as the greatest flowering of creative expression since the Renaissance. In spite of this, and my own loony lefty tendencies, I remain convinced that hip hop is the most materialistic, formulaic, programatic, monotonous, conformist "culture" that I have ever been aware of. Now, when someone says something like I just said there is a good chance that others are going to respond by saying that rap/hip-hop is no different than other genres. (When misogynistic rap lyrics became a topic of discussion after the Don Imus brouhaha a few months ago some rushed in to point out that other musical are mysoginistic too.) While I think there is a question of degrees I'll nonetheless agree that this might be true. But nobody hesitates for a moment to laugh at the lyrics and posturing of cock-rock bands.

This is something that's been on my mind for ages, but two things prompted me to ask the question now:

1) for several days this week iWon online news ran a headline story about 50 Cent's declaration that he would quit if he were outsold by, I believe, Kayne West. I can't help thinking that in any other genre such a statement would have been laughed to the curb, or ignored. But when it comes to rap, the entertainment media seems almost to have accepted the idea that it's normal for artists to engage in blood fueds, which sometimes culminate in fatal confrontations between posses and entourages.

2) just thisafternoon, iWon is reporting that Jay-Z is the "richest rap mogul." OK...this might be nitpicky, and it may reveal me to be even more of a crotchety old man than I've already admitted to being, but—why has the press seemingly accepted the idea that all other business executives are business executive, but that business executives working in rap music are "moguls." If those working with Power Pop artists decided that they were now "poobahs", wouldn't we all have a big laugh and keep on calling them "executives"?

Look...I know that this is an invitation to get flamed, and I really don't mean it to be that. I'm not asking for anybody to justify their musical preferences, just as I don't want to have to justify my own. I reject any and all attempts at censorship, de facto or de jure. I acknowledge that rap songs often deal with topics that have been ignored or marginalized by society at large. I agree that rap and hip-hop might be no worse than many other music and entertainment genres when it comes to its treatment of women, gays, etc., but I would also argue that it is certainly no better. I worry that we, as a society, have lost the ability to objectively analyze what comes to us through the mass media, and when we get the message that Chingy and Charmillionaire represent THE African-American culture, we accept it without question. I know that youth trends are often silly and pointless...that's part of what makes them fun. But I have difficulty with the idea that, in hip-hop, every passing fashion fad seems to be elevated to the level of capital-c Culture. While I don't think I'm ever going to learn to like rap music I would sincerely love to know what I am missing in rap and hip-hop culture that so many have found so deep for so long. Again...sincere answers are more than welcome, but....

[TahitiNut]

1. The only moguls I've met ...

... were obstacles on the downhill. A loooong time ago. :shrug:

[PurpleChez]

7. Bwah-HAH!

When I was in high school I toyed with the idea of "ski club", but I didn't have the disposable income. In later years I was more than happy to accompany friends on ski weekends in West Virginia (I lived in PA at the time) and spend the day, literally, in the hot tub. Good god, that was nice.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Sounds to me like you're not listening to the good stuff.

"1) for several days this week iWon online news ran a headline story about 50 Cent's declaration that he would quit if he were outsold by, I believe, Kayne West. I can't help thinking that in any other genre such a statement would have been laughed to the curb, or ignored. But when it comes to rap, the entertainment media seems almost to have accepted the idea that it's normal for artists to engage in blood fueds, which sometimes culminate in fatal confrontations between posses and entourages."

In popular hip hop, feuding is a way to get attention. If 50 Cent were a blonde white female celebrity, he'd be drinking and driving with his baby on his lap. Same deal. 50 Cent got popular with a feud, with Ja Rule I believe, now that nobody cares about 50 Cent anymore except for middle aged white people who want to be cool, he's getting desperate for attention.

"2) just thisafternoon, iWon is reporting that Jay-Z is the "richest rap mogul." OK...this might be nitpicky, and it may reveal me to be even more of a crotchety old man than I've already admitted to being, but—why has the press seemingly accepted the idea that all other business executives are business executive, but that business executives working in rap music are "moguls." If those working with Power Pop artists decided that they were now "poobahs", wouldn't we all have a big laugh and keep on calling them "executives"?"

You're asking why they use the word "mogul." I don't know, I suppose somebody used it once and it stuck. Kind of like calling certain administration officials "czar." "Drug czar," "war czar," "antisemitism czar," etc.

[PurpleChez]

6. I know I'm not listening to the good stuff...

actually, sometimes I'll hear the good stuff and I'll like it...stuff with texture and depth and inventiveness, and a subject matter that goes beyond the acquisition and display of consumer goods. But, in the end, I'm not talking about the music. I won't ask anybody to explain their love of L'il Jon, just so long as I don't have to justify my "greatest hits of the 80s" mp3s. Thanks for your comments.

[mwb970]

153. The "rap" I hear blasting from people's cars seems mindless.

I was standing in a parking lot yesterday when a car drove by me, blasting a rap "song" featuring a boom-boom, boom-boom "beat" and the following lyrics:

Gettin' me some head
Gettin' me some head
Gettin' me some head
Gettin' me some head
Gettin' me some head
Gettin' me some head
Gettin' me some head
Gettin' me some head

There may have been more, but he drove out of range before I could hear the rest of the "verse".

I couldn't help remembering how my friends and I would drive around in the 60s listening to the Beatles and the Stones (or even Herman's Hermits, for God's sake) and how much better that music seems to be than this "rap" crap our young people listen to now.

Or am I just getting old?

[baby_mouse]

251. No, you're not. It's mindless, infantile garbage.

It's worthless.

[HuffleClaw]

314. speaking of the beatles....

number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine
number nine...

[Le Taz Hot]

322. With some very interesting things

going on musically in the background. Listen closer, dear.

[WindRavenX]

3. Mainstream hip hop is crap.

50 Cent is the worst offender. If you want an idea of REAL rap and hip hop culture, listen to old skool stuff like Public Enemy.

currently, guys like Kanye West are great, imo. Guys like 50 Cent and other "popular" mass consumption rap is what all mass consumption things are: shit.

[PurpleChez]

8. What little Kayne West I've heard I actually did like, believe it or not

and didn't he majorly punk the Chimp after Katrina?

Another one of my beefs/questions is that people will say things like you just said, about Fitty, Diddy, and other mainstream rappers -- that they're crap. But next time they put out an album they're fawning all over them. But that's in no way peculiar to rap or hip-hop. The ultimate might be Alannis Morrisette (I know I didn't spell that right). For a few years 10 years ago the press treated her like she was some sort of prophet...then they all "discovered" her previous career as a Canadian pop star and they all laughed at her. Hypocrites.

[WindRavenX]

11. who are "they" that you speak of?

What people are both bashing and embracing them? Media?

[PurpleChez]

14. God...this was so long ago. Jagged Little Pill was...what...1995?

The entertainment press latches onto whatever is going to sell magazines, and then discards them as soon as something more lucrative comes along. Zappa had some wonderful quotes about music journalism...something about people who can't write, writing for people who can't read, about people who can't play. Frank could be a little dogmatic, but still....

[Cha]

256. Kanye West was

Hot at LiveEarth too when he went out on stage with The Police and John Mayer and riffed on Message In A Bottle! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuSMyPxlMLg

I don't care for Rap..I liked Motown though. :P

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. Here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jym-RtHHG0s

[sofa king]

176. That's not hip-hop. That's Sturgeon's Law.

Ninety percent of everything is crap.

Every law has its lawbreakers, and the Bush Administration stays true to form here, being one hundred percent crap. But hip-hop? Yeah, probably ninety percent, just like everything else.

[ReverendDeuce]

274. Exactly. Just like mainstream rock, pop, etc.

More angsty whiteboys on geetars... that is what the world needs!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. Hmmm

It's only rock and roll, errrr, rap but I like it...

[PurpleChez]

9. And that is cool.

Listen on, by all means.

[David__77]

5. Umm.... all this stuff is nothing new.

All kinds of pop music trends have been somewhat fairly described as "materialistic, formulaic, programatic, monotonous, conformist." I don't see how it's particular to hip hop. I used to get irritated that so many popular hip hop songs were samples of earlier disco songs, and thought of hip hop in general is uncreative, but I've changed my mind. I think it is crotchety, old fart thinking.

People should really take it as a challenge to maintain their mental youth, and change with the times. Every time has its good aspects. I'm learning that big time right now, and I'm getting shocked right out of my not-so-fresh-out-of-high-school sensibilities. And it's for the better. I want the wisdom and age and the initiative of youth; the maturity of age and the dreaminess of youth. Anyway, I'm going on a whole other tangent!

As far as hip hop, the culture is misogynist, yes. But so is the whole society. Hip hop is reflecting truth. I don't think it's worthwhile to expect a very politically advanced culture in every respect.

[PurpleChez]

13. No, you're not going off on a whole other tangent...

that's exactly the sort of thing I was interested in hearing. I still think that mainstream rap is even crappier than the mainstreams of other crappy genres. But I understand that there is a creative undercurrent out there somewhere. It just amazes me how readily some folks buy into the whole contrived contrary-ness "I'm gonna wear my hat turned THIS way...like 20 million other guys" thing. And you're absolutely right about "all kinds of pop music"...there is almost no criticism that can be made against rap music that cannot be made just as strongly against top-40 country.

[David__77]

30. And yet, the funny thing is, I LOVE pop culture.

I used not to enjoy it, largely because of my political standpoints. But, over the years, paradoxically, I've become much more enamored with trendiness in clothing, music, and all manner of consumables. I don't wear hats, but if I did, it would be turned "just so!" I love $250 jeans. Not because they're $250, but because they aesthetically appeal to me. I even had a soft spot for boy bands before that trend collapsed. What kind of progressive could I possibly be!

I have to make a counter-criticism though, of reflexive "anti-trendiness." Coming out of a countercultural scene myself, I have known oh so many people who were "anti-trendy," but then all begin looking like one another, just with a sub-trendiness. And then subcultures are partially assimilated if they have popular appeal and the hardcore "anti-trendies" must move on to a more obscure scene in which to be "anti-trendy" in a very trendy fashion!

[PurpleChez]

40. I went in the other direction

I used to love pop culture in an ironic sort of way. But things changed. Which is all for the best. I'm old enough now that it could seem really creepy...I so DON'T want to be the old guy who tries to make all the kids think he's so hip and who ends up creeping out everybody.

[David__77]

55. Ah, I understand.

I'm not in that circumstance at this point or any time soon. Being gay, though, I think my circumstances are different than for many. It is weird that when I was a teenager, I never watched TV or went to the movies or bought clothes except for at thrift stores, and now I do all those things and only shop Nordstrom. Life is interesting.

[Gregorian]

10. A general answer.

Before you even get to your question I have to ask something. How are you listening? That's a big question. And being a DUer, I think this can be exemplified by our picture of the typical FOX viewer. There is Amy Goodman and there is John Gibson. The heart of what I am saying being "corporate".

If you want to hear hip hop, listen to Kevy Kev on KZSU on Sunday nights at 6pm Pacific time. That is a baseline beginning. Then you might find something you like. Or find that you hate hip hop.

Here is what I have observed about hip hop that I love. (And this is coming from someone who loves Bob Will's and his Texas Playboys, Clifford Brown, Fats Waller, Sid Vicious, Spacemen 3, The Zeros, Count Basie. ) There is something very basic that I discovered about hip hop. It is a community of creativity. One morning I was on my way to work, listening to a show that played a bunch of genres in a single show. I heard this hip hop tune. And I realized they were playing with a marching bass drum. This was totally new and unique. But that's just one silly example. What I find more important is the communal part. They use each other. They build. One sample will turn into a meme that is carried among many artists. And most importantly the message. Hip hop is very much like punk. It's against the machine. The same one we are unraveling here on DU. It's not sexist as people would have you believe. Not the good stuff. (Actually, it might be sexist. But that could be part of the message,not unlike a movie. Portrayal.) And when I say good stuff I mean John Coltrane wouldn't hang out with Kenny G. Get it?

The same is true with any genre.

Find the "good stuff". Listen. Make up your own mind.

I didn't know how to listen. It took me years of practice. After nearly twenty years, I can do it now.

And there is a lot of this that is simply subjective. I like Morrissey. And I'm not apologizing. The funny thing is, Morrissey is one of those divisive arguments. They either hate him or love him. Hell, I even liked Mohinder. Ah, those days of Emo gone by. Haha.

I doubt I've answered much. But maybe it's a start.


Edit- By the time I finished this there were a bunch of replies. I'm 51. I was trained in classical trumpet. Then I was a big band jazz musician for years. I keep up with music. I don't want to miss a thing. That's no different than wanting to keep up with politics. Not FOX, but Democracy Now. I'll die being in touch with music. Unless it gets really bad. But it never will. John Peel is a good example of an old guy who promoted young musicians. He heard it all. He listened.

[PurpleChez]

16. Mad props for all of the suggestions....

remember, I'm not talking about the music so much as the culture and, even more so, the public's perception of it. But as someone who aspires to the broadest possible musical tastes I thank you for all of those names.

[Gregorian]

24. There is a phenomenon I call musical maturity.

It took me well over twenty years before I liked Captain Beefheart. Almost as long before I liked Frank
Zappa, and Miles Davis.

There are even some bands I literally hate, but have begun to like. It depends on a lot of variable. Some are even who is making the music. The Belrays. Deerhoof. These two bands really irked me. Then they came out with some amazing sounds. Totally unique. Or in the case of the Belrays, it was actually reverse bigotry. Reverse racism, on my part. The girl singing sounded like some self obsessed white girl. When I found out she was black, it was a whole different story. I loved it. I am nervous admitting that.

Wow, there is more to write about than I have time. There are parallels to artwork. How artists play off of each other. Humorous quotations wholly or partially borrowed from another artist.

[PurpleChez]

32. I hated R.E.M. when they first came out

I didn't care for the music, and when I read interviews with the band I found them to be the epitome of pretentiousness. Then I moved to northeast georgia, about an hour north of Athens. I watched R.E.M. on "Behind the Music" just to see the local sites. The show included a clip of the band covering "Shiny Happy Monsters" on Sesame Street, and I figured that any band who could play with the Muppets couldn't be that stuck up. I actually lived in Athens for several years, and am happy to be moving back in October. I'm still not an R.E.M. fanatic but I really admire what they stand for, and I know what can happen when you let down old prejudices and open yourself to something new.

[mitchum]

71. You will find that Athens has changed much since you last lived here...

honestly.
It's infrastructure is falling apart. There are now too many people here for the facilities and services available. Thanks to the fucking Hope Scholarship the town is really overrun with the nitwit Sons of Dunwoody and Marietta's Finest
The Athens music myth lives on, but now it really is just a myth. The larger population could care less about "the scene" It really is now just a subculture only for those people who are involved in said scene.

[PurpleChez]

92. Actually, I last lived there as recently as 2004

and even now only live next door in oconee county. Last academic year I taught in Clarke County schools. My ex would agree with you 100% about Hope. For me, the music scene is something that I don't really participate in, but I like the idea that it's there, if you know what I mean. Even when I was 19 I didn't like crowds, didn't like smoke, and while I liked some music played loud I didn't like it so loud that you couldhear it outside the building and two blocks away. So, even if I'd have been at UGA in '81 I wouldn't have been going out to see R.E.M. and Pylon and what not. I'd have been more likely to have crossed paths with someone at a stoned-out dorm party, but that's another story....

[Iris]

199. why would the Hope Schoarlship make Athens overun with the nitwits you speak of?

Surely their parents could afford tuition long before Hope.

[PurpleChez]

213. Please note that I said nothing of nitwits. That was the previous poster.

But since you asked...my ex was a graduate instructor at UGA. It was common for her to have students fuck off for the first three and a half months of the semester and then freak out and come begging for her to cut some "deal" with them because they just now realized that their GPA is in the toilet and, as a result, they're gonna "lose Hope". Because of Hope there are a lot of students at UGA and, I'd imagine at other schools, who aren't really serious about being students. They went because the money was available and once they got there decided that it was party time...until it was too late. There are also jokes and snide comments made about how Hope allows students and parents to take the money that would have gone to school expenses and plow it into some huge SUV or a luxury off-campus apartment. I do not know how valid that critique may be, but I do know that the amount of disposable income the students have now is staggering. When I was in college, even the rich kids drove junkers that they "inherited" from Grandma, if they had cars at all, and if they did move off campus is was into one half of some old house shared with four other people. But now the student parking lots are seas of shiny new SUVs, and kids move by the thousands into apartment complexes the ads for which look like Club Med. So there's also a little resentment or jealosy at play.

[mitchum]

238. Thanks...you saved me a lot of typing...

those are exactly the problems engendered by the Hope Scholarship.
And, of course, there is also the underlying fact that lotto purchases by the disenfranchised urban population funds the education of priviliged suburban brats.

PC, are you now teaching in one of the surrounding school districts? I am still teaching in Clarke, but will probably make that leap next year :)

[PurpleChez]

241. I'm not gonna complain about the lottery

I'm more of a libertarian that a liberal when it comes to things like that...I figure no one's holding a gun to your head and making you buy that lottery ticket. There have been times when I've expressed amazement at how much money my supposedly impoverished kids (students) could spend on clothes, how I wished I had the disposable income that these kids have, and folks have answered that "the pressure to conform is so great in their culture", suggesting that we should feel bad for them because their spending priorities are so fucked up. Shenanigans! We've all experienced peer pressure, especially when we were kids, and most of us have to deal every day with the fact that our income is finite. The fact that these kids and their families have raised conformity and conspicuous consumption to the level of religious fanaticism is not my doing. At any time they have the power NOT to buy that fifth new hoodie of the month, but they HAVE to have the one with the BRONZE $100 bills all over it (the PLATINUM one was SO yesterday...)

BTW...I'm in Barrow this year. Where are you teaching in Clarke? Send a private message if you'd prefer. Good to hear from ya!

[Iris]

258. Doesn't sound that much different than pre-Hope days.

Except then we were on the quarter system and it was not uncommon to see a large influx of transfers from UGA into local 2 year schools once winter semester rolled around.

But, I will agree, I think the college lifestyle is needlessly luxurious and not just in Georgia.

[Warren DeMontague]

166. That's funny. I liked em from the get-go and still like em. But I think Murmur and Reckoning are two

of the best (and most subtly psychedelic) LPs ever recorded by anyone, anywhere.

What maybe sounded to you like prentiousness was a willful desire, perhaps overstated with the excess of youth, by the band to 'withdraw in disgust' from the seething pop-culture mass idiocy that was the 1980s. (Of course, now much of that is looked back on with nostalgia, as disco from the 70s)

What distinguished R.E.M. in those days was integrity, and an unswerving desire to create deep, rich, intelligent music unlike what was being churned out by the pop titans of the era. They largely succeeded. 20 years after the fact I think all that stuff; Murmur, Reckoning, Fables, Lifes Rich Pageant.. holds up. Some of it came off as arrogant but what I think they were trying to articulate was an irritation with Reagan-Era values and culture.

[PurpleChez]

214. I love those records now.

When I listen to them I think "How could I NOT have liked this?" But back in the day I was so wrapped up in my Beatles/Stones/Who british invasion/classic rock phase that I probably just wrote off anything else. I still love those bands but my tastes have grown a little since then.

[Warren DeMontague]

234. Well, shit, I'm a lifelong Deadhead.

But StipeBuckMillsBerry is right up there in the Pantheon with Bob & Jerry.

[PurpleChez]

242. Even more than the music I respect what they stand for...

I love living in a town where I can take my kid to a playground sponsored by REM, where segments of NPR are introduced by Mike Mills and sponsored by Widespread Panic. I'm one of the only people around who has never run into Stipe on the street, but I admire the fact that he supposedly goes to all the city council meetings when he's in town. One of my very first pop heroes when I was a kid was Elton John. I still love his classic music, but I've really soured on the image of the high maintenance ultra-queen who, by his own account, spends $1000s on fresh flowers every day, and who shuts down entire Atlanta-area malls so he can take a shopping trip. So I love hearing the the REM guys wait in line with everybody else when they're going out to their favorite veggie Indian restaurants and whatnot. People always say that they'll stay true to themselves when they get famous...I think those guys did a decent job of following through on that.

[mitchum]

239. I'm one of those who really didn't care for them until they "sold out"...

with "Out Of Time" and "Automatic For The People" I just really really really hate Peter Buck's guitar sound on the early records. He's a nice guy, though :)

[Warren DeMontague]

249. Funny, a lot of people who were fellow fans with me in the early days thought Fables was the

big "sell-out album". AFAIK, they didn't get that so much with Reckoning, but every album AFTER fables was, likewise, considered by some to be R.E.M. "selling out"... Lifes Rich Pageant? You can understand the words! Document? A song in the top 10!! ...called "The One I Love", no less! And Green? Good grief, fuggadeboutit... where do you start.

I actually think AFTP is far and away one of their best albums of all time. I think it easily holds its own with all the rest of the material. Out of Time is good, too, although for some reason that one barely ever ends up in the CD changer. I've heard some versions of "Country Feedback" in recent years that were just searing.

Speaking of R.E.M.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRVxOmu87MA&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nuhD68mr84&mode=related&search=

What can I say? I'm a fan. :thumbsup:

[mitchum]

253. In their early days, they were a dominant presence for myself and others...

playing in the underground. Those like myself who were into the more nihilistic aspects of post-punk carefully sneered at them and dismissed the remarkable sense of uplift and wonder in their work. This despite the fact that Stipe liked my band. What can I say? I was a snotnosed punk :)
However, I do remember telling a friend even back then, "Listen, man, I will kill you if you tell anyone, but 'Pretty Persuasion' and 'So. Central Rain' are great songs"

Stipe, Buck, Mills, and Berry played a version of "Country Feedback" here a couple of years ago. It is a beautiful song. Stipe says that it is his favorite rem song...and with good reason.

[tchunter]

118. you're a spacemen 3 fan too?

jay is still making pretty good music under spiritualized; i'd suggest "ladies and gentlemen we are floating in space" for starters

[mitchum]

125. I'm another Spacemen 3 fan

I'm a sucker for the throb, drone, and swoosh :)

[Gregorian]

141. They are amazing.

I don't even know the full extent of what they were doing. Just very innovative. And of course, shoegazy. Which was nice.

I didn't know about the Spiritualized part. Quite different. No, actually not different at all. Walking with Jesus is very spiritualized sounding.

I don't remember if it was they who were using motorized strummers for their guitars...


Then there's Jesus and Mary Chain. My Bloody Valentine is one of my favorites. Lush. Wilco. Sebedo. Bad Brains.

There's so much great music. But I'll admit to having an affection for the 90's.

Oh, two other bands you might like. I don't know them very well. And they may fit into a more Goth kind of sound. Bethany Curve, and Mono.


Good stuff.

[rucky]

226. New band doing the Kevin Shields thang...

quite well:

www.dirtyonpurpose.com

[classof56]

12. So how old are ya, PurpleChez?

I'm old enough to remember when Rock 'n Roll first hit the scene in the mid-50s, and adults were shocked, shocked, shocked. I listened to Denver stations, which would only play R&R after midnight. The pastor of the Baptist church I attended (you could see this comin', right?) called Elvis the Emissary of the Devil. I honestly do not keep up with the latest music trends--call me old and crotchety, but when I walk through a parking lot and hear rap emanating full blast from a passing car and some female is "singing" "Throw me on the floor and diddle me"--well, they've lost this old broad. I can't even recall what "pop" stars were on the airwaves when my own kids were teenagers because they (bless 'em) turned down the volume when mom got home from work. Maybe it's just culture shock--I'm approaching my 7th decade of life here--but like you, I'm completely missing the point about the allure and popularity of rap, hip hop, whatever, and I think I'm still "lost in the 50s". I don't even try to reason it out, I just accept it and avoid all that loud "music" as much as I can. Perhaps that's what my parents and other adults in my life felt like back when I listened to "Rock Around the CLock." Oh, and that Elvis guy, leading us all down the path to perdition.

Now if you wanta talk jazz...I'm there!

Tired Old Cynic

[Lex]

19. Gotta agree with that.

If the grown-ups "got it" on hip-hop, then it wouldn't have the same allure for the youngstahs.

[PurpleChez]

21. I am 41...old enough to be dismissed as an old fart today, but

young enough to have been 12 or 13 when rap started hitting the mainstream, and I didn't get it then, either. That's not entirely true...I was intrigued by the newness of some of it. And, as an adolescent, there was the shock value of something like Rapper's Delight (shocking if you were used to You Light Up My Life). But then a generation went by and it seemed like mainstream rap hadn't changed appreciably since "My Addidas". I know, apologists will say that mainstream isn't where the creativity is, but it's what 95% of what's selling and being listened to.

BTW...I love jazz but know ABSOLUTELY SQUAT about it.

[BlooInBloo]

15. lol! Pro forma asking a bunch of white folks about good rap, showing a veneer of open-mindedness...

... while basking in the i-hate-rap circle jerk orgy.

GENIUS!


EDIT: Subject typo.

[PurpleChez]

23. pro forma sking?

[PurpleChez]

38. Damn, what a bull-shit answer...

First off...what mystic power has allowed you to divine the race of the people in this thread? And if they are white...does that matter? Or are only black folks qualified to talk about rap?

Second off...regarding the "veneer of open-mindedness"...what can I say...oh, I know...fuck you. I welcome the references and get trashed, and if I had rejected them I certainly would have been trashed. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Screw you.

Third off...regarding the "i-hate-rap circle jerk orgy"...methinks you're reading a little too much into this...I don't like the music, but, like I said, it's not about the music. I think that your characterization of negative comments about rap as being a "circle jerk orgy" actually makes my point...would you have labeled criticism of Hair Bands as a circle jerk orgy? Please....

[oldlady]

17. I spent a good part of this summer on this question

and had a really interesting learning experience. I live/work in an ethnically diverse low-income community. When we polled the kids (upper elementary, middle & high school) on what kind of music they like best, most (65 out of 72) said they like rap/hip hop music. HOWEVER, when we drew up lists of favorite songs, very few rap songs made the list. These kids are clearly favoring R&B music, but just calling it rap/hip hop. They don't know the difference -- and don't care. They like what they like.

But, I'm sure you saw this coming, they don't really CHOOSE what they like. For seven weeks, five days a week, I began my work day at 7:00 a.m. driving a big van of kids to a college campus program. They always wanted the same radio station. I would hear the same five songs EVERY morning. Then, while working on a movie project with other kids, I spent a lot of time driving to different locations, at different times of day, and heard the SAME five songs. Even after editing late, I'd drive one staff member home at 1 or 2 a.m. and hear the same songs. Every week, when the kids made their top song charts, it was just whatever was on the radio.

As to the culture---we took the kids to a DJ Kool Herc concert (good lord that's old school stuff) and they hated his music. But, they loved the local performers who opened for him. We then spent the rest of the summer afternoons interviewing hip hop performers and creating podcasts. These "underground" hip hop performers were wonderful! The kids/teens loved their work and loved interviewing them. They were articulate, political, sensitive, socially-committed, and positive. They also all believed that the world is likely to end in their lifetime (a tangent the kids got caught up in, after one guy talked about the ending of the Mayan calendar in 2012). Anyway...none of these artists listen to Jay-Z or to Kanye West. They listen to "off the radio" hip hop artists and spend a lot of time on the internet finding the music they love. I'm old, but I can remember some of the artists' names: Qwel from Chicago, Saul Williams, Atmosphere, Aesop Rocks..the only big name that came up often was Nas.

As I said, I'm an "old" person, but my son is a hip hop musician who works steadily with "underground" artists and they are some of the most fabulous people I've ever known. The one sadness I have for them, is that they seem almost paralyzed with horror at what our generation has handed them. They are smart, well-read, amazing poets, who reject materialism and have a strong belief in community over nationalism. They can't always identify the Chief of Staff, but they know a lot about Hugo Chavez. They expect their communities to be multi-ethnic and value self-educated readers to "rich white kids buying a degree with daddy's money" at the local university. Yes, they do remind me of the hippies, except they think Timothy Leary was just plain spooky.

I'm not much help, I suppose, since these kids aren't into the artists you mention and staunchly reject the "Stop Snitchin" campaign. They don't like cops, but they also wouldn't lie for someone who bullied a neighborhood.

Personally, I think much of what the media tells us about hip hop is just hype. At least the kids around me don't recognize it. Peace:

[PurpleChez]

44. Peace to you

Those were awesome comments...thanks.

[Iris]

200. Thanks for posting this! I'm definitely going to check out Qwel and the others you mentioned.

n/t

[edhopper]

18. I'm with you Purple.

I personally don't find Rap to be Music at all. Culturally relevant, yes. Artistically valid, sure. What music there is, is stole... ah, sampled from other musicians. It seems to be poetry spoken over a beat with riffs taken from others. Can people enjoy this and find it worthwhile, why not. But I just don't see it as music. I am not talking about the subjects it deals with or the language, it just doesn't seem to be really music. Rappers don't sing or play instruments, they rhyme. That's not a song, that's poetry.
I'm an old fart too. I listen to Dinosaur Rock. But it amazes me that I listen to music recorded 40 years ago (and older when hearing Sinatra, Parker or Goodman).
What I don't see is any "Classic Rap". Rap is almost 30 years old, shouldn't there be stations playing Rap from the 70s and 80s. Are there people in there 40s out there playing the Rap of their youth, the way I play the Beatles and the Who?
This is not about how I feel about the Hip Hop industry or culture.
Just my opinion about the "music".

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. Hmm.

"I personally don't find Rap to be Music at all."

Fortunately, musicians disagree with you.

"What music there is, is stole... ah, sampled from other musicians."

It's all property of the muse.

"Rappers don't sing or play instruments, they rhyme."

Many rappers sing and play instruments. If you're going to talk about something, at least learn a little bit about it first, otherwise you'll make yourself look foolish.

"What I don't see is any "Classic Rap". Rap is almost 30 years old, shouldn't there be stations playing Rap from the 70s and 80s. Are there people in there 40s out there playing the Rap of their youth, the way I play the Beatles and the Who?"

Oh, it's out there. Classic rap stations, or popular rap stations that devote, say, their lunch hour or evening commute to classic rap. Again, you might want to look into it a little more next time.

[PurpleChez]

27. Actually, I was amazed by mu students' (middle-school age)

continued fascination with Tupac. Pop culture, rap or otherwise, seems to emphasize flash-in-the-panm here today, gone tomorrow figures, so I was really surprised to see how iconic Tupac still is. One might ask if he is anything more than an image on a t-shirt to these kids, born c. 1992...but it's still interesting. I've still got zero interest in his music, but it still makes you wonder what about it strikes that nerve in people who do like it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. His music's still great.

Kids still listen to John Lennon, thank god.

[PurpleChez]

48. Right on!

Another thing that has really caught me off guard recently, and happily so, are Beatles t-shirts. I was 14 when John Lennon died, and that was only ten years after the band broke up. Still, being a Beatles fan in that time and place, and at that age, was an oddity. A quarter-century on it could have become even more odd, but I'm so jazzed that it hasn't. I've got no time for the deification of John Lennon, or any other pop figure, but I still love the man, and I'm glad that his message and his work is still out there. I may not feel the same way about Tupac, but to those who do, rock on.

[Greyskye]

47. hmph

edhopper: "I personally don't find Rap to be Music at all."

Bornaginhooligan: Fortunately, musicians disagree with you.

Musicians disagree that edhopper doesn't find Rap to be Music at all? :rofl:

edhopper: "What music there is, is stole... ah, sampled from other musicians."

Bornaginhooligan: It's all property of the muse.

Ah, theft = property? :rofl:

edhopper: "Rappers don't sing or play instruments, they rhyme."

Bornaginhooligan: Many rappers sing and play instruments. If you're going to talk about something, at least learn a little bit about it first, otherwise you'll make yourself look foolish.

I guess I look foolish as well then, as I don't recall anybody other than Futureman (from Bela Fleck and the Flecktones) who plays and raps at the same time. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but all of the Rap and Hip Hop that I've been exposed to has the frontman/woman only clutching a mic, not an instrument. "Many" certainly appears to be the minority. I doubt we'd ever come to a consensus on what does or doesn't qualify as "singing". :D

As a musician myself, I can appreciate the social and improv qualities that some Rap embodies. What I haven't been able to grok is the melodic repetitiveness. The mysogny. The bragging. Glorification of gangster culture and accumulation of personal wealth.

Disclaimer: this was typed by a certified old-fart who doesn't get rap either. Oh, and what's with the freaking bass? I'm a bass-head myself, with a fantastic SVS Subwoofer (http://www.svsound.com/) for home use. These idiots in their cars pumping out pseudo-bass so loud it rattles my car windows from 100 feet away are just silly. To me, it's the equivalent of driving a Hummer. Makes me think, "wow, their penis sure must be tiny!"



(flamesuit on)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. Musicians disagree that it isn't music.

"Ah, theft = property? "

What theft?

"I guess I look foolish as well then, as I don't recall anybody other than Futureman (from Bela Fleck and the Flecktones) who plays and raps at the same time. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but all of the Rap and Hip Hop that I've been exposed to has the frontman/woman only clutching a mic, not an instrument. "Many" certainly appears to be the minority. I doubt we'd ever come to a consensus on what does or doesn't qualify as "singing"."

I guess so.

[Greyskye]

65. disagreement

Some musicians feel that rap IS music, some feel that it is NOT. I can live with that.

"What theft?"

Sampling. I guess if you're not talented enough to compose and perfom your own work, it's OK to "appropriate" others work and call it your own?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. If they don't think it's music, I don't consider them musicians.

:shrug:

"I guess if you're not talented enough to compose and perform your own work, it's OK to "appropriate" others work and call it your own?"

You think that just because they sample that they're not talented? Bob Dylan started his career singing other people's folk songs. Elvis stole all his stuff. The Beatles were originally a cover band. And certainly didn't write or play all that classical accompaniment on their later work.

[Greyskye]

99. bogus examples

Dylan, Elvis, The Beatles, and your nameless classical example that you forgot to fill in didn't record samples of other artists works, and then include those very same recorded samples in their own music, passing it off as their own creations. If you don't understand the difference between sampling and covering, we've got a bigger musical gap to bridge then I thought.

[spindoctor]

109. They would have if the technology had been available.

Did you ever watch the Making of Sergeant Pepper? I was always worried about my harmonies until I heard Lennon stumbling in the rehearsals. George Martin was the true genius behind the Beatles (which explains why most of their solo work was crap) and he used every available technology that was available at the time to make both the arrangements and the musicians sound good.

And there's nothing wrong with a good cover. I like Joe Cocker's "With a Little Help" much better than Ringo Star's mandatory album filler.

[PurpleChez]

127. Not to dis the Beatles, but I agree that George Martin was the unsung genius in the group

So much of what we revere the Beatles for wouldn't have happened without him.

[Greyskye]

173. sounds like the Republican arguments during Watergate

"All presidents lie - Nixon just got caught!" Which, true as it may be, isn't a good argument in favor of Presidential lying.

And I will never, ever, say that there is something wrong with an attributed cover. A number of my favorite songs are actually covers of other artists. Where in the world did I ever say otherwise?

[j995]

281. sample-based hip-hop is in the tradition of the oldest western music

again, the vast majority of hip-hop released in the last 15 years has NOT BEEN SAMPLE BASED so this argument is of limited relevance.

That being said, the very first polyphonic music derived from the process of taking a pre-existing Gregorian chant, and superimposing a new melody on top of it in a higher pitch. An there have been many musical traditions since then that used a similar creative process. The only thing that's different about hip-hop is that new technology allowed new methods of contrafact.

I challenge anyone to listen to a Prefuse 73 or J-Dilla album and then attempt to defend the notion that sample-based hip-hop requires no virtuosity or creativity.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

112. Actually, they didn't even give credit.

Rappers today credit and pay the people they sample. Dylan, Elvis, etc. just played it as if it were public domain.

"If you don't understand the difference between sampling and covering"

I understand the difference, what you need to explain is why one's bad and the other's good. Or I'll have to assume the real problem you've got has nothing to do with the music.

[Greyskye]

129. .

"Rappers today credit and pay the people they sample."
Rappers today? OK, if you say so. What I'm familiar with are the countless suits that I remember being filed by various musicians due to rappers sampling others music and using it as basis for their own. If that doesn't happen anymore then kudos.

"Dylan, Elvis, etc. just played it as if it were public domain."
As I was never an Elvis fan, I can't speak to his music. Did he ever 'cover' a song, and claim it as his own? Did Dylan? If so, then I agree that falls into the 'bad' bin. I know that Dylan played a number of what are known as 'traditional', or 'trad' tunes. These are tunes so old that they have fallen into public domain. A large portion of folk music falls into that category. I used to be in a Celtic folk band. The majority of our songs were considered trad. If we had recorded them, there would have been absolutely no issues. If, however, we had recorded our version of Eric Bogles' "Green Fields of France", we would be owing someone some money.

If you want me to talk further about which one is good and the other bad, you need to provide me with some actual examples of Dylan or Elvis songs that are, according to you, 'bad'.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

155. Countless suits?

Name five. Not counting rock bands such as The Verve or the Rolling stones who were sued for the same thing.

"I know that Dylan played a number of what are known as 'traditional', or 'trad' tunes."

He also played other peoples stuff that had just been written by other Village folk musicians, and they played his stuff, and nobody cared because they just wanted to play music, and they didn't have sticks up their asses about copyrights.

"If you want me to talk further about which one is good and the other bad, you need to provide me with some actual examples of Dylan or Elvis songs that are, according to you, 'bad'."

I'm not saying they're bad at all. It's your argument.

[Greyskye]

164. countless suits

Countless suits, because I certainly wasn't counting them as they came up. When I was in high school (late 70's), I remember lots of news reports regarding various artists suing because their songs were being sampled without attribution. I don't have a Find Law account, and the quick Google that I did only came up with stuff like this: http://remixmag.com/mag/remix_licensed_ill/ - which certainly speaks to the complexity of the whole sampling subculture. I doubt that there are many on-line references to the lawsuits that I remember, as that was in the ancient pre-net days. BBS's were the limit of the tech at the time. :D

"I know that Dylan played a number of what are known as 'traditional', or 'trad' tunes."

He also played other peoples stuff that had just been written by other Village folk musicians, and they played his stuff, and nobody cared because they just wanted to play music, and they didn't have sticks up their asses about copyrights.

I was never a big Dylan fan, so I am unfamiliar with what you say above. Did Dylan ever record a song written by someone else, and fail to give attribution?

If you want me to talk further about which one is good and the other bad, you need to provide me with some actual examples of Dylan or Elvis songs that are, according to you, 'bad'."

I'm not saying they're bad at all. It's your argument.

Sigh. That wasn't my argument, which is why I used quotes around 'bad'. OK, can you give me some examples of Dylan or Elvis songs which they recorded, which were written by someone else, and that Dylan or Elvis failed to give attribution to the original artists?

[PurpleChez]

215. Celtic Folk Band...now I'm down with that

As we "speak" the Philadelphia Folk Festival is going on (earlier than usual this year...don't know why...) and I hate not being there. I went religiously for fifteen years, even after moving 700 miles away. But when my daughter was in utero I felt I needed to stay home, and I haven't made it back since. I have high hopes for '08, however...I just hope my friends are still interested in going. Next year in Schwenksville!

[Greyskye]

263. Music Festivals rock!

I've been going to a number of them religiously in my area for about 10 years - and I'm ecstatic that a new one has just been added in September in a small town close to me. The California World Music Festival http://www.worldfest.net , The Celtic, and the new Festival I'm excited about http://www.kvmr.org. Every year at the festivals feels like coming home. You get to catch up with the folks you haven't seen or been camping with since the year before. Discovering your new 'favorite' band of the festival. Jamming in the campground until 3am.

You come away with a feeling of community and a larger social awareness. As well as a desire to put in more time practicing. :D I know that music can have a positive influence, because I get to experience it over and over again. I have a t-shirt that my wife got me a while back: "Humans make Music. Music Makes Miracles." Yep. That about sums it up.

Have fun at YOUR festivals! :hi:

[PurpleChez]

275. One of my favorite music quotes

comes I think from Pete Seeger, saying that ALL music is Folk Music, because he's never seen a cow play an instrument.

Clara and I spent a short time at a music festival in nearby Winder last night. We couldn't spend a lot of time, but it was their first year and I wanted to show our support. I echo everything you said about festivals. Some of my favorite fest experiences have been in the campground rather than in the concert area. More than a dozen years ago I was roaming the campground at Philly and came across a huge group that was jamming on the Stones' "Sympathy for the Devil", a few guys playing guitar, a crowd doing the "Hoo-hoo's", and the guitar solo taken by a flute. Just so much fun. I will always wish that I was carrying a tape recorder. Sometimes the actual concert performers drift too far into the "Worship me...I lived through THE SIXTIES" sort of thing, but there's none of that in the campground. God I miss it, but I hope to get back next year.

[Greyskye]

298. I like the quote

I agree about the campground experience. It's just such a genuine thing that anyone can participate in if they feel like it.

I know what you mean about catching that occasional 'magical' music experience. I was jamming with a couple guys on the day after the last World Fest (we don't break down camp until the day after), and we really hit an amazing groove. Afterwards, one of the guys rummages around in his van, and pulls out this pocket sized recording studio, and set it up in case we were able to do something as cool again. Unfortunately, that was a one-off, but I was really impressed by his gadget. I found it in the last Musicians Friend catalog that I got - top left of page 66 if anyone gets that. A BOSS Micro BR pocket sized recording studio. $230 I'm really tempted to pick it up, just so that I can preserve a portion of those rare music moments like you're talking about.

[Greyskye]

300. additional suggestion :-)

After I had mentioned that BOSS recorder, I started looking around to see what else is out there. This looks incredibly sweet, but not due out for a couple more weeks. I'm going to be keeping my eye on this and looking for some professional reviews. I think this might be the home/field recorder I've been waiting 20 years for the price and features to be in the affordable range for me.

[PurpleChez]

126. I agree with SOME of what you said, but I think you misunderstood Bornaginholligan's point

about classical music. I think BH was talking about the snippets of orchestral music in Beatles songs, which of course was not played by the Beatles. Today things would likely be different and everyone would get in the credits, but all sorts of people (including Clapton and Jimmy Page if I'm not mistaken) played on Beatles records, some as "guests" but others just as session musicians, and were never creditied. I remember one of the pre-Sgt Pepper LPs (maybe Rubber Soul or Revolver) that credited a few "extra" musicians (including a tabla player George had brought in), but that's about it. I agree with you that sampling is not the same as covering, but Bornagin was right about the classical bit.

[Greyskye]

134. you're right

After reading it again, I see that I misunderstood his Beatles comment.

Session musicians are often not credited. I've never agreed with that, and won't defend the practice. :)

[PurpleChez]

150. I suppose contracts were written differently at the time,

but I was always surprised that some musicians union or something didn't push for more credits, if only so Joe Trumpet Player could point at the tiny print and say that he'd played on a Beatles album. For "resume" purpoises if nothing else.

[spindoctor]

91. My opinion as a musician...

Anything that has rhythm and/or melody is music.

There are many genres in music.

Rap is a genre.

In any genre it is possible to produce good and bad music.

Don't underestimate the (artistic?) effort that goes into some sampling productions. Don't think that sampling techniques aren't being used in other genres.

See my other post about stealing work from others.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

270. I know very few legitimate artists who would claim a sample is their own

The vast majority are more than willing to give credit where it is due.

I think the ability to take a snippet of a piece of music and create something completely different and interesting from it takes great talent. You act like they are just performing karoke over it.

It makes me wonder if you even really know what "sampling" is.

[PurpleChez]

63. Regarding your closing comment:

I've often thought about a similar issue: we here at DU have an almost universal cynicism toward Hummers, particularly those that are used only for two-mile trips to the local supermarket. But are we willing to be just as judgemental about the pimped-out Escalade with the 22" rims and the windows tinted to the darkness of a welding mask?

[Greyskye]

139. heh

As I want to limit the number of people I offend; I think I'll reserve my feeling about the "pimped-out Escalade with the 22" rims and the windows tinted to the darkness of a welding mask". I'll limit my comments to that car pumping out 150db of crappy quality bass.

:evilgrin:

[PurpleChez]

149. But, ya see, that's part of what I'm talking about

you wouldn't hesitate to chuckle about some oversized matchbox truck, jacked up four feet off the ground, covered with confederate flag decals ("Ain't Skeered"), with a set of platic testicles dangling off of the trailer hitch. So we are you worried about offending people by chuckling about the metallic green pimpmobile with the oversized tires and the Louis Vuitton upholstery? The latter may be no more silly, but certainly it is no less. Why must we treat it like a cherished relic of cultual heritage?

[Greyskye]

186. OK, fine.

I'll come out and say that I find ridiculously pimped out cars as silly as hummers. I can appreciate the work that went into pimping it out as a form of art, but that doesn't keep me from thinking that it's a waste of time and resources. But it's not really germane to the discussion here, is it? I thought we were talking about music (however various people may define it). ;)

[PurpleChez]

212. Actually, in my OP, I was specifically NOT interested in talking about the music

but that's the direction it went, and there were still a lot of good comments.

More than the music, I was interested in the culture. Music is a matter of taste...in the end you can't intellectualize it or rationalize it. You like what you like and don't like what you don't like for reasons that may be too complex to ever sort out, and that's fine. I won't ask anybody to defend their enjoyment of Public Enemy, just so long as I don't have do defend my own love of some of the crap I listen to.

But, as I say, my interest is the culture that surrounds rap and hip hop and the larger culture's perception of it. It still does not sit well with me to see how society as a whole as accepted, tolerated, even celebrated the extent to which Thug Culture and Gangsta Culture is held up as THE definitive expression of African American culture. Still - listen to whatever you want to listen to, wear whatever you want to wear, drive whatever you want to drive. Fads and trends and styles can be fun and silly and exciting and all kinds of good stuff, but remember that they are FADS. They are not necessarily cultural relics. I often think WTF? when I look at hip hop and see the extent to which things that under any other set of circumstances would have been allowed to remain trends and fads being elevated to the level of Capital-C "Culture". I used to work for a human services provider and one of my major duties was trying to get variously disadvantaged people into jobs. I'd take clients to recruitment fairs and see dozens of guys who, from the neck down, were dressed as they would be for church...for NICE church...entirely appropriate for a job interview in almost ANY setting...except that they were wearing black nylon do-rags strapped over their heads and flapping down over their shoulders. I can't shake the idea that the do-rag (which I know is not new, but which I also know no one was wearing ten years ago, at least in this area) has been elevated almost to the level of a jew's tallit or a muslim headscarf, insofar as one believes that it must be worn and should/will be accepted by others as wholly appropriate. It wouldn't be so weird if were just kids. Getting caught up in stuff like that is part of being a kid. But I get the real WTFs when I see guys in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and even beyond coming in to my store, on duty from their own jobs, dressed like extras from a 50 Cent video (ankle-length t-shirt worn under their uniform shirt, for instance). I know that I shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, but I also know that if my mom and dad went to the store -- let alone to WORK -- dressed as skate punks or goths, they would be made a laughing stock. As I said elsewhere in this thread, aside from the specifics of the styles, there is almost no critique of hip hop that can't also be made about top-40 Country and other genres. People in general have lost the ability to filter what comes to them through the media...they just take it all in and swallow every last bit. Ball caps with logos printed at the CORNER of the bill are "in" this week? (In "zombie" voice: ) MUST...GET...NEW...BALL CAPS....TODAY!!!

Look...I know that in thirty years I'm gonna be the crotchety old guy yelling at the kids to get off the lawn. I'll admit that. But this is something that I think about. I generally don't ask people about it because, like a lot of uptight white guys, I worry about how the question will be perceived. So I really appreciate that the original post led to such an overwhelmingly postive and constructive conversation.

[Chovexani]

160. I certainly am willing

I saw an Escalade the other day pimped out like that...in Scottsdale. Motherfucking Scottsdale.

Nothing quite says, "hi, I'm a douchebag!" than a Tiny Penis Machine whose rims continue spinning while said machine is stopped at a red light for a good two minutes.

And all I could think of is Chris Rock on Never Scared: "they spinnin', n***a!"

[PurpleChez]

216. I'm gonna have to look up that Chris Rock

as I often enjoy his humorous vignettes

On edit: there may be nothing from the rap/hip-hop world that is more stupid that spinning hub caps. Their sole purpose is to scream "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! I HAVE MONEY!!!!" With kids you could maybe smile and remember your own youthful silliness, but I'll see guys in their 40s and 50s driving around with spinners on their cars. Pathetic.

[Zensea]

46. Just like Clapton stole from Robert Johnson

and Led Zeppelin stole from everyone.
Just like Santana stole from Peter Green and Peter Green stole from the Chicago blues.
They were still great anyway.

[PurpleChez]

58. My brother is a HUGE Zepplin fan, and he was so pissed

when he realized the extent of Page/Plant's theivery. Not so much that they'd taken the songs but that they'd credited them as their own original compositions.

[spindoctor]

82. There is no stealing in music

I don't understand why people make a big deal about it. In other forms of art it is perfectly acceptable for artists to copy (parts of) another artist. And let's face it, if someone paints an apple, nobody else can?
Music is big business and that's why companies are anal about protecting their artistic copy right. It's like a fighter patenting his left hook, utter nonsense.

There are 12 notes in the western scale. There are only so many permutations in which they can be (pleasantly) arranged. In the end, repetition is inevitable. EVERY musician "steals" from others. Some are better in masking it. ;)

[Greyskye]

131. Question

Is it ok to scan the Mona Lisa, do a high quality print of it, add some texturing and then sign your name to it?

No?

Then why is it ok to record a measure of someone's song, and use that as the basis for yours?

All of your examples are straw man arguments. Of course no one can copyright 'painting an apple', or patent a left hook. You're right, THOSE examples are nonsense. We aren't talking about repeating notes in a scale, we're talking about sampling (recording) another artists vocal and/or instrumental performance, and using it uncredited as your own.

[spindoctor]

145. Did you ever hear of the Isleworth Mona Lisa?

There is a distinct possibility that Da Vinci's most famous work of art was in fact....a copy. Thanks for picking that example ;)
Andy Warhol made a fortune using existing images and "adding texture" to it.

To use a phrase from another song as the basis of your own is like making a collage. Perfectly acceptable in painting. In literature it is also not unheard of to use a few lines from another book as the basis of your own. Dan Brown's best selling Da Vinci Code (to stick with the theme), was largely "borrowed" from other sources.

Rapper's Delight is a completely different song than Good Times. Gangsta's Paradise has an entirely different atmosphere from Pastime Paradise. Should that be contributed to Chic and Stevie?

Thirty years ago there was discussion about whether acts like Wendy Carlos, Jean Michel Jarre and Kraftwerk were real musicians because their music was made on computers and that didn't qualify as an instrument.
My grandmother was under the impression that electric guitars play automatically.

You don't have to like it, but as with any form of art, if you think it's so easy...give it a try.

[Greyskye]

154. silly example

The Isleworth Mona Lisa - I think folks can make up their own minds on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isleworth_Mona_Lisa I stand by my example above.

Warhol's "images" that he copied were things like Campbell's soup cans, and photo's of Marylin Monroe's face. He would array his subject out, and then paint a mosaic of them, sometimes in different tones or pallets. He didn't take someone else's painting, then copy it verbatim and claim that it was all his original work.

The electronic composers you mention (ah, the good old Moog Synthesizer!) composed their own music (or, as in Wendy's case, used the Moog to play classical - Switched On Bach was a favorite of mine in high school) mostly composed their own work - Wendy being the exception there. But she didn't take a recording of Bach by some orchestra, and use that in her composition!

Obviously I have no input into the rap songs you list above. :eyes: And I'm certainly not going to make any comments about your grandmother.


Hey, I haven't been arguing that rap isn't "music". I do have an issue with unattributed sampling in songs where the sampled portions make up the majority of the 'new' work. Maybe that's not "easy", but it certainly isn't ethical.

I don't understand why people want to blow out their eardrums (and everyone else's withing 100 feet) with crappy low quality (but high volume) bass, while someone rhymes on top of it about abusing women, dealing drugs, showing off their 'bling', and shooting cops and other rappers. It's what some folks enjoy. Fine. I don't get it, and it actually gives me the opposite of enjoyment. I love music. The live music festivals that I go to every year are the things I look forward to most during the year. They make me feel good about myself, and the world around me. They offer hope, and while they often showcase the problems in the world, they also offer up music as a way of forming global communities, a way of at least starting a dialog. I've heard a very small amount of rap and hip hop that I feel fall into this area. Unfortunately, the vast majority the that genre seems to be doing just the opposite. And that's really sad as far as I'm concerned.

[spindoctor]

235. unethical?

"I do have an issue with unattributed sampling in songs where the sampled portions make up the majority of the 'new' work. Maybe that's not "easy", but it certainly isn't ethical."

George Clinton is without doubt the most sampled artist in rap music and he actually encourages it.

Rap is all about rhyme. Originally it used existing fragments (actually the instrumental parts of 12" singles, not samples) as rhythmic accompaniment. That is still prevalent in today's rap although (from what I catch) there is more and more original music involved and there are many acts that work with live musicians. That includes the "DJ" working the turntables as an integrated part of the band. I had to swallow a few times myself before I could consider a turntable as an instrument and a DJ as a musician, but why not. What's unethical about that?

There's good and bad, and most of what you get pushed up your ear drums is the crap but that's true for all popular music. Frank Zappa always had very offensive and sexist lyrics and I still love his work. Rock has always been about sex, be it implicit. Although even in the 40's there were songs like "60 Minute Man" that were not exactly rated PG.
I rarely listen to rap, but I do like for example Afroman. It's tongue in cheek rap (with original music) and they address the rap cliches that you find so offending (Did I Offend Anyone? - FZ).

The beauty of music is its diversity. It would be pretty boring if all music was about peace, love and understanding. You don't have to like it all, but you should keep an open mind toward other streams. If not, then you sound like...well, my grandma. ;)

[Greyskye]

266. I think you misunderstand part of what I said

If George Clinton encourages people sampling his music, then more power to him. Does his being the most sampled artist have anything to do with him encouraging the act? :D I was (am?) a Deadhead. The Dead encouraged people to tape their shows, as long as they only traded these recordings of the shows, and didn't sell them.

I've seen DJ's doing some really incredible things with vinyl on turntables, and I agree with you regarding a turntable as an instrument and the DJ a musician. And I really don't have an issue with this. I think this is the point you misunderstood me on.

What I think is wrong, is recording somebodies music, and then using that clip without giving the original artist credit. And I agree that there is a slippery-slope argument here. 1 sampled note? Sure, that's just adding some texture. 2 sampled notes? What the heck, same thing. 6? Ummm, maybe. A long, wordless vocalization by Kate Bush, looped and used as a main theme of a rap song with no attribution? Right out.

What do you think of my comments on the Hip Hop TV show I commented on at the bottom of this thread? And you better speak up, sonny, I'm hard of hearing! :hippie:

(edit for spelling)

[spindoctor]

273. If they use a long sample it becomes a cover

And I don't know about not giving credit. Usually credits are only given on an album cover and...I don't own any hip hop albums :rofl:
There is some regulation stating that if your sample is longer than ?? seconds, you owe copyrights to the original artist. So I'm sure that is all under control and Kate Bush will be adequately rewarded for her sopranos.

I left my comments on the HHTV show below and I typed as loud as I could.

Finally, to demonstrate that deadheads are not above profanity...

Deer Creek - Keller Williams

I was there at Deer Creek back in 1995
I think it was June maybe July
But Jerry was still alive
All the kids in that parking lot
They tore that fence down
And I blamed them
For the second show getting cancelled.
I really wanted to go
I saved up all of my dough
I didn't go to any other shows
And I got my tickets M.O.ed
And I never missed a Deer Creek show
From '89 to '95
I was happy just to be alive
On my yearly Indiana vacation
But that was cut short by a bunch of jealous,
party bashin', buzz thrashin', gate crashin', stinky bastards
And if you're one of them
And you hear this song
...
Fuck you
You cocksucking motherfucker
Fuck You
You cocksucking motherfucker
(repeat many times)

I just HAD to get that in ;)

[Greyskye]

297. don't think I agree with that definition

You don't own ANY hip hop albums? That's got to be the funniest/most ironic thing I've seen in this thread! :rofl:

To me, a 'cover' of a song IS that song. Just taking a portion of one song, and using it as part of a completely different song isn't a cover as far as I'm concerned.

Here is an example of a 'cover' album. Let's use the Grateful Dead as an example, since they've been brought up a couple times. :D

I've got a fun CD from 1991: Deadicated. It is an album of various artists covering Grateful Dead songs:
Los Lobos - Bertha
Elvis Costello - Ship of Fools
Suzanne Vega - China Doll & Cassidy
Indigo Girls - Uncle John's Band
Burning Spear - Estimated Prophet
Jane's Addiction - Ripple

Just a sampling. This is the type of thing that I'm talking about when I refer to a cover song.

And I can't say that I blame Keller Williams for his lyrics at all; I'd be fucking pissed too! :evilgrin:

[edhopper]

83. How wrong can you be.

Clapton stole nothing. He played Johnson's songs, interpreting it in his own way and giving full credit to RJ. Zeppelin certainly were very influenced by American Black music. But they also wrote and performed some of the best rock music ever. Sanatana wrote and performed his own music as well as others.
I'm not saying that Rappers are just stealing music from others. I'm saying they don't perform or play that music. They just rhyme.
To compare what Clapton and Santana did to the sampling of Rappers is a complete crock of shit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. Why?

Rappers give full credit just like Clapton.

And the samples that they use are usually electronic recordings originally anyway, so "they don't play the instruments" argument doesn't hold much water either.

[edhopper]

94. They don't play the music.

They play the recordings of others. Clapton played Johnson's music. The way Sinatra sings others song. Or Yoyo Ma plays others music. Playing a record is not musicianship.
I can't explain it better. If you see no difference in Santana playing Tito Puent and P. Diddy sampling the Police, then we just don't see thing the same way.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

110. P. Diddy's sampled portion of "the Police" was sung by a vocalist.

Which Sting said he loved, btw.

And like I said earlier, most of the stuff that gets sampled was never played with instruments in the original recordings.

[Zensea]

98. sez you

You're entitled to your opinion but I don't think you know what you're talking about (that's my opinion).

I'm getting busy at work, so I'll get back to you more on this one, but I think you're the one that doesn't understand.
Briefly -
Giving credit doesn't mean you're not "stealing." Plenty of people used to accuse Clapton of stealing (just as you accuse rappers of stealing), doesn't mean they were right, of course.

Rappers give plenty of credit to James Brown and George Clinton also for that matter.

Rhyming is performing with the voice.

Using a turntable is an art, they essentially turn it into an instrument. That's performance and play.

[j995]

278. of course YOU don't see classic rap :)

that doesn't mean it isn't around.. there are many radio shows that feature classic hip-hop from the 70s and 80s including my own, and many many hip-hop fans who revere the music of that era.

The notion that hip-hop isn't music has been thoroughly refuted so many times over the years I won't even touch on it.

I will point out that the vast majority of hip-hop over the last 10-15 years has NOT been sample-based, so your rationale for dismissing it's musicality is sorely outdated. (though for the record it was bankrupt even when current)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. You Need To Listen To The Good Stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWOsbGP5Ox4

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. And

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jym-RtHHG0s

[Gregorian]

31. Good one.

I was thinking the same thing.

Party tune with the Road Warrior kind of theme.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. More

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL9ihXiFAko

[Gregorian]

37. Old school! Don't believe the hype.

Oppression, baby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASjH7X-jAY4

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. Some Snoop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PVlqQcyTXg

[Gregorian]

43. Ultramagnetic MCs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIc_rVKGA1g

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. Welcome To The Terrordome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jscVDSVgL_Q


I saw them at JJ Whispers in Orlando in 1990...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. White America

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OFR4L2tHe4

[Gregorian]

51. More old stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P_dJEmiGlU


Disclaimer- I'm no hip hop historian. But you can't go wrong with the roots.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. More

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvV-upQVoFs

[Gregorian]

77. That was radical shit when it came out.

My bong was getting a lot of use back in those days.

I'm so old now! :)

[Gregorian]

78. HEY DJ

This is an old fave. I don't even know the year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbjiNhmqrzE

[Gregorian]

85. Grandmaster Flash

The beginning.

Edit- Damn. This has all kinds of references and sampled history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN-04ix8RqY

[Gregorian]

106. Change of gears.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXLkVqGTy3U

[Yukari Yakumo]

222. An Oscar Winner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6odzCYFOOQ

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. That Is Easily One Of The Five Best Rap Songs Of All Time

eom

[edhopper]

42. That's the "good stuff"?

HMMM

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. You're Not Down With Tupac

eom

[edhopper]

56. Guess not.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. There's Still Time

eom

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. Nah, it's pissing into the wind.

If somebody's that out of touch you just got to let it go.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. To Me It's Just Another Genre...

eom

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. To you and me, sure.

But I think to some of the haters the issue is more then just a genre.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. I Am As Comfortable Listening To Johnny Cash's Greatest Hits As I Am Listening To Snoops...

Maybe it's just me...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. Not just you at all.

Lots of similarities.

[PurpleChez]

130. I agree with most of the comments I've seen you make throughout this thread

but I don't like the suggestion that to dislike a particular artist or genre is to be "out of touch." I think I sense a little tongue-in-cheek in your comments, and I apologize if I'm taking them too seriously.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

159. If it's a simple matter of not liking it, that's fine.

But this is more than just not liking it.

[PurpleChez]

218. I looked back through the thread

and it looked like you were ultimately referring to someone who said, regarding Tupac, "That's the good stuff? Hmmm." Calling someone out of touch or a "hater" just for that is a little much. My apologies if I've missed other comments you were also referring to, because I respect most of what you've been saying here.

[kwyjibo]

158. Hello! Scenario!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFZLq6R-ZtM

[rucky]

228. KRS One / Boogie Down Productions

Tribe Called Quest
Jungle Brothers (my favorite)
De La Soul
Kool Moe Dee
Public Enemy
Prince Paul

[mudesi]

28. Hip hop is terrible. Lynyrd Skynyrd, however, rock the house (nm)

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.0
==================



This week is our third quarter 2007 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend on donations
from our members to cover our costs. Thank you so much for your support.

[CRF450]

34. Gangsta rap music is the rage with kids around my age (20)

Theirs a few of those song I like, but I'm mainly a new rock/metal fan. What bugs me though is that alot of teens and young adults are trying to act like "gangstas" now. But hey, whatever floats their boat, it sure doesn't float mine.

[Flabbergasted]

36. Rush Limbaugh and Rap have alot more in common than meets the eye...

Driving around with your bass heard for blocks or driving around listening to Limbaugh?

Both intended to be huge Ego Trips...

Frankly I think most of it rediculous and pathetic but whatever. It's not my life

[mrcheerful]

50. Plastic music for plastic people. Producers tell rap, country and rock persons what to play and how

to play it. The days of Buddy Holly, The Beatles, The Doors, Jimi, Janis, The Grateful Dead, Moody Blues, Bob Dylan, Johny Cash, Marty Robbins and all the self produced music are gone, today its about looks and being able to sell at top dollar. When all else fails shock america time by adding cuss words or sexist lyrics or strange stage acts with minors (R. Kelly is good at that). Just make that almighty dollar to enrich fat white rich people more.

[Flabbergasted]

59. There is a strong correlation between MTV and the image is everything mentality.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. Hmm.

You cite cuss words and "sexist" lyrics but also applaud the doors.

It wasn't R. Kelly who wrote "Father I want to kill you, mother I want to fuck you."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. It Wasn't R Kelly

It wasn't R Kelly who wrote "I'll bet your mother doesn't know you scratch like that"


or wrote the misogynist anthem:



Under my thumb
The girl who once had me down
Under my thumb
The girl who once pushed me around

It's down to me
The difference in the clothes she wears
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb

Ain't it the truth babe?

Under my thumb
The squirmin' dog who's just had her day
Under my thumb
A girl who has just changed her ways

It's down to me, yes it is
The way she does just what she's told
Down to me, the change has come
She's under my thumb
Ah, ah, say it's alright

Under my thumb
A siamese cat of a girl
Under my thumb
She's the sweetest, hmmm, pet in the world

It's down to me
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb
Ah, take it easy babe
Yeah

It's down to me, oh yeah
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb
Yeah, it feels alright

Under my thumb
Her eyes are just kept to herself
Under my thumb, well I
I can still look at someone else

It's down to me, oh that's what I said
The way she talks when she's spoken to
Down to me, the change has come,
She's under my thumb
Say, it's alright

Say it's all...
Say it's all...

Take it easy babe
Take it easy babe
Feels alright
Take it, take it easy babe

[mitchum]

72. Sophocles told me he's gonna put a cap in your ass

:)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. Rap Is A Mirror Of Society Not A Catalyst

eom

[Flabbergasted]

Rap mirrors capitalism more than society. nt

[Greyskye]

168. Is there a point at which the mirror BECOMES a catalyst?

I think there is. And in my opinion, that point has already been reached.

When kids raised in poverty have as their biggest and most visible role models millionaire rappers who glorify guns and drugs - what do you think the result is?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

174. They turn to witchcraft.

Just like those little thugs that read Harry Potter.

[Greyskye]

179. My 9 year old is a thug?

And I used to know quite a few Wiccans and neo-Pagans - most of whom were the nicest folks I've ever met.

I don't get your comment/joke. :shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

185. I'm saying the idea that rap causes violence...

is just the same stupid idea behing Harry Potter causing witchcraft, or D&D causing satanism.

[Greyskye]

188. ok

I get your point now.

But you find no plausibility whatsoever that kids raised in poverty, whose biggest role models are rich rappers who glorify 'gangsta' culture are not influenced by that? How about the Mexican music genre (I can't remember the name off the top of my head) which exalts the drug trade? Or the Italian genre which glorifies the Mafia? I find that music is a very influential communication tool in promoting good will and establishing dialog. Why is the opposite not also true?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

189. No.

No more than I find it plausible that Harry Potter causes Satanism.

[Greyskye]

190. we'll have to disagree on that then

As I've seen interviews with young people who have stated unequivocally that the rap/gangster culture was a huge negative (in retrospect) influence on their lives.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

191. Sure.

And I saw a Tom Hanks movie where Dungeons and Dragons made him think he was a wizard and try to fly of the World Trade Center.

[Greyskye]

193. sigh

What is it with you and these bogus comparisons? Comparing some freaking movie with interviews of prison inmates?

Whatever. :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

194. It ain't a bogus comparison.

It's the exact same thing.

Harry Potter causes witchcarft. Rap causes gangstas. Video games cause school shootings. Spongebob causes homosexuality.

The funny part is how you suggest that rap causes violence, but only in poor black communities, not the white suburbs where rap is listened to most. As if the black kids are too dumb to know any better.

[Greyskye]

195. that's exactly what it is.

Did I ever advocate banning rap? Because that is the subtext all of the other examples that you gave.

What I suggested was that there was possibly a causality between the role models that people have and how that plays out in their lives. I'm sorry that you are incapable of seeing the distinction.

And if I was raised poor, with little education, and the most visible successful role models that I had were people who glorified guns and drugs; well, I don't doubt that I would seriously consider that life path. I feel fortunate that I had better role models then that in my life.

Please stop putting words in my mouth and painting me as racist.

Try taking some basic psychology courses if you think that I'm full of it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

196. Talk about bogus.

I didn't say you advocated banning rap, I didn't put words in your mouth, and I didn't call you a racist.

You used anecdotal statements as a substitute for common sense, and that's why the comparison is valid.

[Greyskye]

198. .

You used the examples of:

Harry Potter causes witchcarft. Rap causes gangstas. Video games cause school shootings. Spongebob causes homosexuality.

All of these are examples that people have used (with the exception of rap, as far as I know) to advocate bans, boycotts, or restrictions. Why would I not think that you are accusing me of the same thing?

The funny part is how you suggest that rap causes violence, but only in poor black communities, not the white suburbs where rap is listened to most. As if the black kids are too dumb to know any better.

"The funny part is how you... As if the black kids are too dumb to know any better." Gee, sure sounds like you're saying something about me. :sarcasm:

First, I said poor, not black. More words in my mouth that I did not say. I also brought up the Mexican and Italian equivalents of rap - yet you ignored that. While you are ignoring my main point: Can music be a positive influence on people? If so, can it also be a negative influence? I am positing that both are true. You are evidently positing that it cannot.

[PurpleChez]

219. Google "Albert Bandura". Any general psych student will remember

the experiments with the "Bobo Doll." The point is that controlled, scientific studies have demonstrated -- and, for most professionals, well beyond the shadow of a doubt -- that viewing violent stimuli predisposes a person to commit violent behaviors. You can't simply dismiss out of hand the idea that the images in rap music and videos might contribute to violence. It has nothing to do with anyone being "too dumb" or "too smart". Now...as a loony lefty I do not conclude from this that we need censorship in any way shape or form. But you can't deny a scientific fact just because it doesn't fit in with an idealized image of things.

[Karenina]

250. Let's not go there m'kay?

The thread is long enough as it is with most making a sharp left before digesting your initial inquiry.

[PurpleChez]

277. I'd rather go there than debate whether or not rap is music...

I didn't want to get into music, which is a matter of personal taste. I wanted to talk about the culture and one of the major aspects of that is the tolerance, even celebration, of "Thug Culture" and "Gangsta Culture" as being somehow the epitome of African American Culture. I also think that some people are unwilling to scrutinize hip hop as closely as they would other genres. If I put up a post that asked "What's wrong with Cock Rock" or "Why do Hair Bands suck?" i would get a few objections from fans of those genres but, on the whole, others would feel comfortable saying what they felt. But when it comes to rap, even the most valid critique is likely to get someone labeled a "hater" or even as "hating African-American Culture" -- and, yes, both accusations are made elsewhere in this thread. Rap is not sacred...it is at least as worthy of critique as any other art form.

[Karenina]

299. I didn't read you as critiquing rap, per se.

Yes, your questions about media and perception using rap triggered a tripwire. And no, it's unlikely we'll get to them in this thread. ;-)

[PurpleChez]

303. I know you didn't! You were not misunderstood!

:)

[Greyskye]

197. do you agree that music can be a positive influence?

If so, why can it not be a negative influence?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

201. The same reason I don't think books cause Satan worship.

do you think Harry Potter causes Satan worship?

[Greyskye]

204. then you DON'T believe that music can be a positive influence

I feel so sad for you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

205. You feel sad for me?

Hey, I'm not the one who thinks Spongebob makes people gay.

[Greyskye]

206. only a little lol

Neither am I. What the hell is your point?

Show me anywhere that I have said that. Please, enlighten me. :sarcasm: I'm beginning to think that you are simply living up to your name, and trolling for responses.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

207. Dish it out but can't take it?

Show me where I said music couldn't be positive.

[Greyskye]

208. Post #201

Post 201, in reply to my post 197.

Me: do you agree that music can be a positive influence? If so, why can it not be a negative influence?
You: The same reason I don't think books cause Satan worship.

Sure sounds like that is what you are saying to me.


I'll check this thread this evening - I've got a ton of work to do the rest of the afternoon. And the gratuitous insults "Dish it out but can't take it?" are out of line. I haven't made snarky remarks whenever you've ignored a point or question of mine. Keep it up and I'm going to think that you've been influenced by the demon rap. :evilgrin:

[PurpleChez]

220. No...but perhaps The Satanic Bible does....

That doesn't mean that I support banning or censoring the Satanic Bible, which I don't. But if books couldn't affect (effect?) people's thinking folks would have stopped handing out religious tracts ages ago. There would be no such thing as campaign literature. I agree with the point being made, that if music (or any art form) can effect someone positively it might also be able to effect them negatively. That's not a condemnation of rap in general or of any specific recording or performer.

[sendero]

245. Exactly..

.... it's mostly for folks who have little to brag about to do some psychic bragging.

I'd like it more if the music itself weren't so uniformly insipid. Of course, there IS good hip-hop, but you are not going to hear it on the radio. At least not in Dallas, where all they play is that absurd formulaic crap that sounds like it was created by a daft robot.

[spindoctor]

53. Nothing - pop music has always been crap. Check the charts.

In 60 years of pop music and weekly charts, you have to look long and hard to find the gems.

Madonna, ABBA, Vanilla Ice and MC Hammer. Just some examples of people getting rich shuffling shit to teens.

If you are willing to make an effort you can find good rap music. If not, then who cares? It's music and subjective by nature. My parents didn't get rock & roll, my friends didn't get Zappa, my wife doesn't get Chopin.

The target audience for hard core gangsta rappers are middle classed suburban white boys. I'm sure they get it just fine ;)

[PurpleChez]

69. "The target audience for hard core gangsta rappers are middle classed suburban white boys"

I've lived in Georgia for almost ten years now, and it still amuses me when I see kids cruising the parking lot at WalMart in their pickup truck, plastered with confederate flag stickers and Bush stickers, a John Deere hat on their heads, etc., etc., with gangsta rap blasting out of the vehicle. I'm not saying they shouldn't be listening to whatever the hell they want to listen to, but it's still damn funny.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. I Think You're Making Too Much Of The Phenomenon

People listen to it for the same reason young folks would rate a song high on American Bandstand; it has a good beat and it's fun to listen to:


Live a little:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4RY-eJgHHs

[PurpleChez]

102. You're absolutely right. To me, it's not so much

about rap or hip hop...after living in the south for some time I really, REALLY get cheesed off by folks whose W stickers proclaim themselves to be proud Bushies, people who support (explicitly or implicitly) a forced march back to a fantasy vision of the 1950s and who regard conformity as a virtue--for everybody but themselves. They want to play hippie-gangsta-biker-rebel dress-up, while expecting the rest of us to sit down, shut up, do what W sez, and submit to government by the Baptist Council of Elders. I'm sure I AM reading too much into it, but I see RW Bushie gangstas as the starting point of this phenomenon.

[spindoctor]

104. I disagree

It's not just about beat and lyrics. It's about how wide your shirts are, how low your pants hang and what bling you wear. It's about culture. The fact that rich white kids want to (pretend to) be a part of black urban culture is however funny to people of our age.

But it was equally funny to know that the same social group 40 years ago listened to CSN&Y and Dan Fogelberg and believed they were contributing to world peace by growing their hair and doing nothing.

You have to outgrow it to see it in perspective and until then, do whatever you want. You're only young once ;)

[PurpleChez]

221. I've never heard anyone else say that before:

about 60s kids who "believed they were contributing to world peace by growing their hair and doing nothing". I was born in '66 and grew up despondent because I'd been born "too late", and I was sure that I'd been meant to be a hippie. As time went by I became more cynical about a lot of that, especially about people who, looking back from the present, think that they helped to stop the war by smoking pot in their dorm room. So I got a big chuckle off of your comment

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. Tell Me This Isn't The Shit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v41Dopy16h8

[edhopper]

74. As I said

I appreciate the social commentary, I just don't find it music.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. How About This?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=b8YRJDNtwhk

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

80. I think you're wasting your time.

It's not that he doesn't think it's music, it's that he doesn't want to admit it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cPp8v7DKM5U

[edhopper]

90. I'll explain this carefully,

I don't think Rap is music. If I thought it was bad music, or really disliked it, that is what I would say. There is plenty to find fault with in Rap. I am not saying that, and in fact say I understand that it is culturally and artistically valid to many.
I just don't think it's music.
It's rhyming while music is played.

Obvious you cannot accept the opinions of others that differ from your own.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

93. I Got It

You're like the cat with Kanye:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Y7upg1oEI



How about this?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUmcUuPo3Jo

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

113. Let me explain this carefully.

I don't believe you.

[edhopper]

119. I guess since you are

the judge of all things that are right and correct I must be lying. How could I have an opinion different from yours and hold it in the face of your overwhelming retorts.
Gosh, what else should I think sir?
:sarcasm:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. It's not really a matter of opinion.

Rap is a form of music. That's a statement of fact.

As for your opinion, I think you just don't like it, despite never listening to it.

But you choose to slur it as "not music" because you, ironically, think it's "beneath you."

What else should you think? I don't know. But I suggest starting.

[mondo joe]

115. How exactly do you define "music"?

I don't see how it can NOT BE music any more than an apple can NOT BE a fruit.

Maybe I'm just not getting your definition.

[Sparkly]

135. That's really the question it comes down to.

I could imagine a lot of people thinking what Alban Berg wrote wasn't music. (And hey -- look who's quoted in my sigline! Music, or not music?)

[mondo joe]

136. It's funny, because edhopper writes:

"I just don't think it's music.
It's rhyming while music is played."

But if music is being played how can it not be music?

Isn't almost any song with lyrics essentially "rhyming while music is being played"?

[Sparkly]

137. Yes...

And there's a lot of modern "art" music that's really cacophonous. Rap and hip-hop are much more "musical," in the general sense of that word, than that is. But it's considered "serious," and played in concert halls (sometimes). Sometimes it's more about the concept of the piece than the actual performance of it.

From what I've heard, there are some interesting rhythmic things going on especially in the "raps," but even more interesting is when clips are juxtaposed so that they start getting into two or more tonalities -- keys -- going on at once. That's very "modern art music"-ish, but when "serious" composers did it, it was considered brilliant and innovative.

[PurpleChez]

223. I agree with you whole-heartedly that rap is music

But I also believe that each person must be allowed to decide for themselves if they think it's *good* music or *bad* music. And if they don't like it they shouldn't immediately be written off as "out of touch" or worse. I'm not suggesting that any of your posts made such accusations. It's just that your comment led me to that thought.

[edhopper]

247. I see it more

analogous to beat poetry, where someone would play drums or chimes while the poet performed. It was reciting poetry, a spoken word rather than a musical performance. That is why I say I don't think it's music. Sure, there is music on the recording, but the Rapper isn't performing music.
If a singer sings a'capella I would consider that music. If a rapper raps without the accompaniment, I think that is just spoken rhyme, not music.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

252. That was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.

[Greyskye]

88. not the shit

It has a great, informative message - especially the written communication in the video. The audio track? From my musical perspective, it was boring and repititious. Not anything that I would ever choose to listen to. Why waste my time on that, when there is such an incredible amount of (IMHO) fantastic music out there?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

89. What fantastic music is out there?

And musical taste is largely subjective...

[Greyskye]

108. agreed that taste is subjective

Here is my Pandora station, http://www.pandora.com/stations/a969b91b4e0c9a6729034731b33b4bc0ee56ad17f84d5fe3#tbl_artists_table,all">"The Eclectic Greyness"

The artists listed under "Artist Seeds" are some of my favorites. I doubt you'll recognize many of them - I tend towards music that hardly ever gets played on the radio. Of course, I have quite a few favorite bands that are too obscure for Pandora.

[Greyskye]

144. Here's something fantastic

Another Bela Fleck selection (I posted one of their 'rap' songs downthread). This is a more representative sound for them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l1ns9PMtVs

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

271. I gotta be honest, it's getting worse

Back in the early-mid 90's when I went to college, I was not the biggest fan of grunge, but some of the alternative stuff (Liz Phair, Sonic Youth, Soul Coughing) eventually grew on me to the point I now remember it as fondly as the classic stuff (Tom Petty, Rush, Steely Dan) I was set on listening to almost exclusively at the time.

Nowadays, even the college stations are simply playing mass market emo/faux punk that I can turn on MTV or Fuse and hear all day if I chose to. It's a bit unsettling. It's why my Sirius radio is almost always set to the 90's alt station.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

124. I agree.

boring and repetitious, full of crappy distortion. No subtlety to it.

I'm a fan of geezer rock myself, wasn't quite old enuff to be a hippie in the sixties.
I grew up with one ear in the classical station, and the other ear in the Top 40/British Invasion station, into the 1970s. When the Police broke up, I gave up on pop music having anything interesting going on.

My folks didn't like me blasting the stereo on "Also Sprach Zarathustra" (which I played in high school at music camp -- 1st violin) or the "Firebird Suite".

They didn't like me blasting the stereo on The Who or The Beatles, either. My dad kept saying "Turn it down, I can still hear it!". :rofl: They didn't appreciate John Lennon's screaming ability.

I didn't like Big Band music or crooners from their generation. However there was a lot of pop stuff written in the 20s, 30s, 40s that has a lot of feeling and subtlety to it (Rodgers & Hart, Gershwin, Kurt Weill).

My grandmother warned me against that "nigra music" when my cousins and I were trying to tune in American Bandstand on Saturday morning in a town that was in the middle of nowhere. Grandma told us we should watch Lawrence Welk. We just laughed our butts off behind her back. We wouldn't be caught drunk in jail watching "The Zombie Show".

I thought, "Yeah, that Dick Clark, he sure is black." :sarcasm:

I can't stand country (the new stuff), Jessica/Britney pop, or rap. What we called R&B in the 60s, like The Four Tops and other Motown types, is totally different than what they call R&B now.

I like opera because I went to see it and there were Surtitles in English over the stage, so you knew what was happening while they were singing. That totally changed my view, and turned me on to opera as expressing eternal human emotions and stories. And the sets and costumes and lighting are stunning if it's a major opera company. However they can keep the operas of two fellas to themselves: Richard Strauss and Wagner (unless it's live).

[MrBadExample]

105. While we're on the subject....

This is one of the greatest rap videos ever made. :)

[Telly Savalas]

132. That's great!

Thanks for posting the link.

[Canadiana]

76. The Roots, Mos Def...

Eryka Badu, Lauryn Hill, The Fugees, Jill Scott, Tupac, Public Enemy, De La Soul, Common, Kanye West...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. You Should See This Movie

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425598/

[Toasterlad]

95. It's Just Noise. No One Will Ever Be Able to Convince Me It's Music.

However, I'm 43, so that probably comes as no surprise. I was raised on rock and roll in the 70's and 80's. When rap came along, I dismissed it as a fad going nowhere. Shows how much I know. But I'll say this: even though I was raised on rock, I still LOVE the standards of the 30's, 40's, and 50's. THAT was good music. ROCK is good music. R&B is good music. Rap/Hip-Hop? Just noise. :headbang:

Now excuse me while I wheel myself out to the porch for a nap. Be a dear and bring me a nice tall glass of iced tea. Not too much ice! :hippie: *

*we SERIOUSLY need an "old fogie" smiley. "Hippie" is the best we can do?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. For You My Friend

And it is a beautiful, beautiful song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRqYMTpXHc

[Toasterlad]

101. Thank You! I LOVE Louie!

That man knew his way around a song.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

103. What A Beautiful Man And Song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thls_tMuFkc


Another gift:

[MrSlayer]

97. These days you aren't missing anything.

All the good stuff in hip-hop was done before 1995.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

262. Believe me, there's still excellent stuff even nowadays, just not on TV.

[yella_dawg]

100. materialistic, formulaic, programatic, monotonous, conformist "culture"

Pretty much covers it.

The cost of finding and developing serious musical talent is significant. For every Rolling Stones you get, you invest time in money in lots of one-hit wonders. The studios spent a ton developing talent in the 50's, 60's, and into the 70's. Too often, bands either didn't have widespread appeal or the individuals couldn't handle the long-term intensity or star status. Costly as hell, but it produced the kind of talent that is still selling records and packing venues three and four decades later.

The industry discovered they could build significant sales through hype and marketing. In the eighties and nineties, created talent, generally teen-pop, and significantly, rap, became the norm, and investment in real talent became a thing of the past. Now, the only way to generate sales is to keep up a flood of new albums that get snapped up by teens. But recently, teens either wised up or ran out of easy money, and sales have tapered off. There are no new Pink Floyds that can sell a respectable number of albums after three decades.

The industry cries about Napster, but the truth is, they cut their development budgets decades ago, and the effect is beginning to bite.


Rap is a manufactured product. Lionel Ritchie is a phenomenon. There is a difference.

[Katherine Brengle]

107. As far as I can see, there are two primary kinds of hip-hop/rap music --

the amazing and moving socio-political kind...

and the misogynistic disgusting trash kind.

The good stuff is so good it gives me goosebumps and shakes my soul.

The bad stuff is so bad it scares me and unfortunately this is the prevailing kind, and what I think a lot of "hip-hop culture" is based on.

[mondo joe]

111. Hip Hop is just a genre. There's good and bad in it.

You may be looking for too much.

[Zensea]

114. "Elvis was a hero to most ...

but he never meant s--t to me."
Seems like this thread is the appropriate place to quote Chuck D of Public Enemy especially considering all the hype about Elvis the past couple of days.:evilgrin:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

117. I Love Chuck D But He Has Since Modified His Comments

So why didn’t the rumor die? Why did it continue to find common acceptance up to, and past, the point that Chuck D of Public Enemy could declare in 1990, “Elvis was a hero to most... straight-up racist that sucker was, simple and plain”?

Chuck D has long since repudiated that view for a more nuanced one of cultural history, but the reason for the rumor’s durability, the unassailable logic behind its common acceptance within the black community rests quite simply on the social inequities that have persisted to this day, the fact that we live in a society that is no more perfectly democratic today than it was 50 years ago. As Chuck D perceptively observes, what does it mean, within this context, for Elvis to be hailed as “king,” if Elvis’s enthronement obscures the striving, the aspirations and achievements of so many others who provided him with inspiration?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/opinion/11guralnick.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&oref=slogin

[Zensea]

121. I know Chuck D is very nuanced in his thinking

It's still a great line though and perfectly captured a zeitgeist.
As a poet (which I am) I really admire his way with words; most rap I can do without but there is some of it which is great art.

As a tangent, as long as we're discussing such things, I bet a lot of "rap-haters" like reggae which can be argued to be one precursor to rap (I'm thinking of Lee Perry and dub, as well as U-Roy and Yellowman and others and toasting). No one ever claims that reggae is not music. I suspect that those sorts of claims about rap are a product of people's unconscious racism. Probably doesn't happen with reggae since it is a music from a culture of another country. Who knows really though, I'm just speculating -- won't try to defend the point.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

122. I Don't Know If It's Latent Racism... I Think It's Latent Conservatism

LOL

[Enrique]

288. I think a lot of criticism of rap could fairly be called conservative

which I don't see as necessarily making it wrong.

I also think that some of the messages of rap could also fairly be called conservative. Greed, for example. Also, recall how 50 Cent approvingly called Bush a gangster. I think that meant something.

[Gregorian]

116. There is something about hip hop that is subjective.

And it's something everyone on this forum can identify with. Oppression.

Look at the lyrics the group Public Enemy has written. Or what about Grandmaster Flash when he talks about

The bill collectors they ring my phone
And scare my wife when I'm not home

Crazy lady livin' in a bag
Eating out of garbage pails

I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far
Cause a man with a tow-truck repossessed my car



I'm not a big hip hop fan. But I know what they're talking about. Fighting against. Just a thought.

[mitchum]

123. It's great for pushing consumerism, but pretty wretched otherwise...

since I possess neither white guilt nor a pathetic desire to "get down with the kids", I don't feel compelled to defend its musicality

[DemGa]

128. I often hear rap and top-40 country grouped together

Two sides of the same coin?

[PurpleChez]

224. Abso-fucking-lutely!

My parents used to be top-40 country fans, but I think the genre eventually got so insipid that they couldn't stand it anymore. But a dozen years ago my brother and I were teasing them about how modern country was rap music with cowboy hats. I could go point by point but I really have to get to bed. I'm guessing from your screen name that you might be a Georgian? I've lived in GA for almost ten years now, and when I moved down all of those jokes about rap and country were proven to be true. But I never would have anticipated the prevelence of rappin' rednecks. I'm not talking about Bubba Sparxxxxkkckkxs. I'm talking about kids in their pick up trucks, plastered with confederage flag stickers and "ain't skeered" stickers and "W" stickers, cruising the parking lot at the wal*mart in Toccoa, with gangsta rap blasting out of the windows. High-larious.

[Sparkly]

133. I'm a "classical" type, but I like some of it.

I don't make a point of listening to it, but when my daughter does, I like it sometimes. And I LOVE hip-hop dancing, although no matter how cool I FEEL, I'm told I still look like a ballerina doing it. :(

The larger "culture" identity, lyrics, and business dealings etc. are larger subjects I don't know enough to comment about.

[BoneDaddy]

138. There is good and bad in everything

I tend to shy away from the "bithes and ho's" rap (although I do love my Snoop and Tupac on occasion).

Your points are accurate. There is a great hypocrisy among hip hop and rap that no one addresses for fear of be labled a racist.

[Greyskye]

140. PurpleChez...

...what do you think of this? I don't like most rap (as you can tell from above, LOL) but I enjoy this.

This is Bela Fleck and the Flecktones doing a rap number written by them. Sorry, no fancy video to go along with the link. I do like the live version on their "Live Art" album better, but I still think this is a lot of fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AfQtb-gGvY

[Gregorian]

142. I think you might like Charlie Hunter. See this---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idemh8o82NE


I couldn't find some of the tunes he has done that are absolutely amazing. Not like this one, which isn't bad! But totally straight up jazz that rivals the classic groups. That's Charlie Hunter playing a guitar/bass hybrid.

[Greyskye]

143. that seriously rocked!

Thanks!

What a wild fretboard Hunter has on that thing! Too cool!

I'll have to find more of his stuff. :thumbsup:

[Karenina]

151. Oh my!!! Bela Fleck and the Flecktones!! Charlie Hunter Trio!!!

:woohoo::woohoo: This thread has gotten quite long with no mention of Michael Franti's work... I mean since the subject does touch on hip hop.

[Gregorian]

162. His comment is my profile.

I absolutely love him. It's the political messages that can make a tune great, as well as the music itself.

"You can bomb the world to pieces but you can't bomb it into peace."

[Greyskye]

169. yes, but it's not attributed!

:evilgrin:

[Gregorian]

171. Thanks.

I really overlooked that! I'll put it in there.

[Karenina]

170. His cover of "There's a hole in the Bucket"

is of such brilliance!!! :SWOON:

[Greyskye]

165. Michael Franti and Spearhead!

Thanks for reminding me of him! He played at one of the music festivals that I go to every year (http://www.worldfest.net/) in 2006. What a fantastic show he put on! Highly recommended!

You're right, Franti does have a lot of hip hop influence in a number of his songs. I guess I enjoy his work as it is musically interesting and socially progressive - and REALLY fun to dance to!

[PurpleChez]

225. I love Bela Fleck...I'll check out the link in the morning

I SO have to get to bed, and I've been saying that for an hour.... Thanks!

[NuttyFluffers]

146. you're confusing disposable pop culture Hip Hop for the entirety of the phenomenon

pop culture, which is almost synonymous with disposable, is manufactured popularity -- plain and simple. it's why pop culture rock, country, easy listening, world, etc. are, for the most part, crap. it is an inescapable defining feature of the market it is pushed into. media is a method of information distribution -- the consequence is that it can be used for control and profit. the best ways to control people is to appeal to what they think is their basest desires, surge the message, silence the dissent, and then claim that's all what the community wants. this act of selective editing and promotion does 2 things: it silences mass distribution of real talent and message as well as reinforcing cultural attributions projected on the target audience.

now, once you get that all mass market media is deliberately selected to craft "identity" and thus control, and not inspiration and expression, you will rapidly understand that there is a reason so much stuff sounds like crap. there is a reason why Hip Hop was so amazing at one time, just like rock, folk, disco, etc. before it: the masters of media need time to understand the format to repackage the image to in turn silence the message. essentially they need to figure out why this new burst of creativity ticks, so in the first few years a lot of milestone works get released. once they figure out where they can market it into an image they feel "safe" with then the format begins to suffer unbearable monotony in the mainstream. no form of music has escaped this in modern times. jazz has its Kenny Gs, world music gets its Yanni and endless coffee house "Now This is What Makes Me Unique and Cultured! vol. 20" compilations, and easy listening has... well, shit, pick anything.

now, if you want to find good music, the best bet is talk to people who can remember good early works as well as keep up-to-date with underground releases. since all creative movements must be co-opted and neutered for an oppressive system to survive any real creativity has to go into hiding and evolve outside the masque provided for "the masses." i don't know what you are exactly looking for musically or message wise, but there's likely something out there that will appeal. i'm surprised that there has not been any mentions of Arrested Development, Bone Thugs N Harmony, Monie Love, anything with Ya Kid K, A Tribe Called Quest, Queen Latifah, etc. for those who don't know better there's quite a bit of rap that uses harmony and melody, though it isn't the main emphasis, but they often end up using far more complex levels of meter (referred to in the community as 'flow') and rhyme schemes.

furthermore, considering all songs that contain lyrics must consider harmony, melody, meter, and rhyme in the aspects of lyrics it would be just plain ignorance to say music with lyrics that places more emphasis on harmony and melody is "music" compared to music with lyrics that places more emphasis on meter and rhyme. in fact, discounting the background instruments in the identity of music, thus placing primacy on lyrics, is just as ridiculous as saying music w/o background instruments cannot be music (which would be saying choral hymns aren't music) or that music w/o lyrics isn't music (which would be saying all instrumentals aren't music). in fact, the extremes of music lacking either of lyrics or instrumentation entirely far exceeds the difference between music that just place different emphasis on how lyrics are used. and since we cannot say those greater extremes are not music, without looking like a total ignorant boob, then therefore something less than those extremes, by definition!, must be included in the spectrum of music. now with this we can say everyone has been marginally brought up to speed on the properties of music; so persisting on this "argument" that "rapping isn't music because i don't hear melody/harmony" would be traveling from the realm of ignorance (when you didn't know better) to the realm of stupidity (when you did know better). let's refrain from that again, shall we?

[PurpleChez]

227. Thanks for well-thought out response

Remember that I specifically wasn't asking about music (even though that's where the thread went and it's led to some great conversations nonetheless). Rather, my thoughts are with how the fads and styles of hip hop have been elevated to "Culture" status, how a cartoonish materialism has been embraced as an expression of that culture, how so many people accept the idea that thugs and gangstas have become the public face of african-american culture. Nonetheless, I appreciate everything that you had to say. Thanks!!

[NuttyFluffers]

317. as i addressed, it is a deliberate fashioning of identity from atop

it's like how the Harlem Renaissance quickly became a threat to the power structure and co-opting in things such as the Cotton Club, studio movies, etc. occurred with a rapid attack against Harlem businesses by freeway projects, red lining, etc. so once the new energy has been contained into an expression permissable then the second job of mockery and denigration begins. basically, this is a very old song and dance.

so, Hip Hop is/was culture, but it isn't "high" culture because its roots were based in the democratization of expression (by the way this is the real genius of Hip Hop: if you can afford the record you already bought, and the player you play it on, and maybe a mic and some juice, *you too* can be an artist. your dreams and expressions are suddenly just as valid and entertaining.) it's "the people's music" in the clearest sense. this whole raising it into "high culture," along with the insinuation that it is cartoonish, materialistic, and self-destructive, is a deliberate sculpting of the message by a society that hates Hip Hop and its energy.

and here's the scariest thing about media, they can wipe out history. so, by utilizing this message of laughable materialistic fool along with the message that "this is all there is to their high culture" is basically a call for justification of racial stereotypes. in essence it is the reinvention of the Sambo and Zip Coon for modern times, "tha playa 'n tha hustla" respectively, making a comeback insisting that this is the best African American culture can do. it's utter garbage, but it's the only thing that is being allowed to mass market -- and with the insidious justification that "this is all that really sells in 'their' community." it's a fabricated cycle of internalized oppression against a scapegoat class of citizens that at some point becomes self-perpetuating because of the amnesia of history.

if i were you i'd not buy into the bullshit. the hard part is trying to save the youth from this cycle as radio is horrendously monotonous. that's why i encourage nightclubs and solid DJs for youth nights. that way you can get various messages than the typical 5 songs on repeat that we've been suffering of late throughout radio.

[GirlinContempt]

264. Bravo

[baby_mouse]

147. I can't stand it. I just find it amazingly irritating. NT

[Zhade]

148. Rule #1: 50 Cent is not hip hop, he is an overhyped idiot who can't even fucking RAP.

I'm sorry, but I think you have to turn in your rap pants when you rhyme "birthday" with "birthday".

No fucking creativity, and he's wildly rich. That's this stupid country for ya!

[Karenina]

152. You DID say, It's not about the music...

"I worry that we, as a society, have lost the ability to objectively analyze what comes to us through the mass media, and when we get the message that Chingy and Charmillionaire represent THE African-American culture, we accept it without question."

It seems some are projecting their reflexes in their replies and the above hit one of mine... Let me go think about this a bit.

[Chovexani]

163. That stood out to me, as well.

I should probably share something that relates to this. I get more grief from white people about being Goth than anyone else. Not other Goths, mind you. The white Goths I know are some of the most racially aware white people I know, probably because as a subculture we tend to be that much smarter than the average bear.

No, I mean the white people who live in like, Scottsdale and drive their ridiculously pimped out Earth-raping SUVs around town blasting Chamillionaire and Lil Jon. Apparently, the fact that I'm 26 and don't have fourteen kids and several babydaddies, wear a whole lot of black and prefer listening to vintage Siouxsie, Voltaire and VNV Nation means I'm betraying my cultural heritage. I do get this criticism from the occasional black person (mostly ignorant nationalist types in the online communities I frequent who think I'm a traitor because I'm a childfree bisexual and not perpetuating the race or some bullshit). By far, though, it's white people who have the bug up their ass about my musical choices. :shrug:

Never mind the fact that sitting on my iPod at this very moment is Arrested Development, Doug E. Fresh (!), Salt n Pepa, old school Queen Latifah, A Tribe Called Quest, TLC, etc. Why? Because I like music. Good music. Music with depth and intent and soul in it. I think it's telling that my hiphop Playlist in iTunes is far shorter than any other playlist I have, and none of it is from mainstream artists after like, '96. The only recent mainstream rap artist I've got in my playlist is Kanye West, who I checked out after his post-Katrina comments about Bush and like way, way more than I thought I would. (His comments decrying homophobia in the hip hop community made me love him even more, as wankily narcissistic as he otherwise is.)

Honestly, though, I find it interesting the numbers of white self-appointed Guardians of Black Culture. LOL whut.

[PurpleChez]

229. Your "traitor" comment reminds me

of my best friend from my school last year, a fellow teacher. He's african-american but is way into parts of the jam-band scene and other genres not usally thought of as "Black." And he catches all kind of grief from the Black and Hispanic students for "acting white."

The two groups that have contributed the most to American music are two of the most oppressed: the Irish and the Africans. African American music is such a vast, rich heritage...it's sad that so many (on all sides) seem to be aware of nothing outside of such a narrow window of time and style.

[Karenina]

237. It's that "branding" thing again.

I cannot tell you how many times I've had my horn in my hand and been asked what I was going to sing. We're not just trying to mess up people's mental cubbyholes, now are we? ;-)

[AnotherGreenWorld]

156. What are you missing? Nothing really.

And yes, I've listened to rappers like Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Common, and Immortal Technique. It's just not very good. There's much better music out there.

[IndianaJones]

157. some good music. nt.

[kwyjibo]

161. Please try Aceyalone - amazing and poignant lyrics (not about gangstas and hos) and kickass beats:

This is an interesting video someone made to go along with one of Aceyalone's best songs The Balance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybONcyD9AUI

The lyrics:

The second somebody dies somebody else is born
People are celebrating while other people mourn
Home may be home to you but to me it's foreign
Even the matador don't pull the bull by the horns
One man's enemy is another man's friend
One man's poisons is another man's medicine
So let us stand, let us sit and let us view
The changing of the guard oh it's so hard to keep it true
It's the balance of the scales it can't be challenged or expelled
Soon as somebody lost somebody else prevails
Some someone is quiet at the same time someone yells
Half full or half empty water in the well
It's the Half and Half Hypothesis the 50/50 theory
Eerie as it may seem check your balance beam
It's the Half and Half Hypothesis the 50/50 theory
Eerie as it may seem check your balance beam
Now check your Balance Beamer with a feather and a rock
Wheath or not you find the answer is really not the plot
See it's like Love and Hate (love...and hate)
The same emotion different weight
People Love to Hate so I know you know just how this all relates
It's the posa and the nega tive
Mini and mega live
Arm a leg a leg an arm headed by a nigga
Like big and small
Short and tall
Night and day and so on
Some people are bashfull
Some people just love to get their flow on (they flow on)
So here goes one to grow on
I'm a go on and on and on till the principles are laid out
The scales of justice weighed out
Till your memory starts to fade out and your game of life is played out
Got to balance out the power don't we?
Balance your emotions
Push and pull positions like the moon pulls on the ocean
Balance on one foot that's equilibrium
Opposites attract and retract that's a fact
I'm a Libra y'all!
180 degrees but not that hot
So whether or not you find the answer is really not the plot (really not the
plot)
Because giving is recieving (and) and seeing is believing (and)
And the solar system rotes so harmonious and even
It's perfectly balanced
Verse 2:
Some people say life is about taking chances choices and decisions
Voices and opinions, politics and religion
Clues the past and cash and keys to the future
It's a possibility and probability on who's gonna execute yo ass
Some slow and analytical
Some quick fast on the dash
Like heads or tails but the head usually leads the tail
So I tell my tales from the head
Cause they're embedded inside my cells
Real quick let me tell you about a fact I know things will even out
You can disbelieve or doubt or even shout or leave it in your mouth
Cause how you gone reason wit grand Mother Nature
Running mother Earth controlled by Father Time who's the chaser
It's living and dying homey
Laughing and crying dude
Trying or lying my brother
Walking or flying fool
Now half of you are gone find the time to shine
The other half gone find crime, money weed wine
Till it's to late in a disillusion state of mind
I just found my peace of mind
Now they want a piece of mine
To late in a disillusion of mind
The orthodox is the unorthodox they just got you on the names
The insane and the sane are the same
It's a damn shame so many people's aim is so lame
And their gain is so minimal
Caught up in the subliminal
It's pleasure and pain, water for the flames, the wild and the tame
The style still remains if you use the right side of your brain
Instead of going against the grain
You can penetrate the vein to the point where what remains is a stain
Of this universal thang
That we call Balance balance..

[Greyskye]

167. pretty good!

It sounded like real instrumentation behind the rap, with some good, interesting percussion as opposed to a mindlessly boring bass loop. (the piano riff at the end might have been sampled - but I don't have an issue with something like that - 6 notes looped a number of times). Too bad the person who made that video cut off the "accompanied by:" credit when they were panning down the album cover. :(

The lyrics are great. I find spoken word rap - or even spoken poetry - to be personally boring, so it isn't something that I would listen to more than once. Which is kind of strange now that I think about it, as I don't have the same reaction to "talking blues". I'm guessing that's because in that, there is at least a blues melody going on behind the words to hold my interest.

[sofa king]

172. A little test for hip-hop haters.

One of these two quotes is from a Pulitzer-prize winning poet. The other is from rapper MF Doom.

Can you tell which is the horrible rap music, and which is the timeless art of ages long past?


We real cool. We
Left school. We

Lurk late. We
Strike straight. We

Sing sin. We
Thin gin. We

Jazz June. We
Die soon.


OR

Pan it, can't understand it, ban it
The underhanded ranted, planned it and left him stranded
The best, any who profess will be remanded
Yes sir, request permission to be candid? Granted
I don't think we can handle a style so rancid
They flipped it like matted, did the old jazz standard













The first was most of the famous poem "We Real Cool," by Gwendolyn Brooks, ca. 1960, while the second quote was a section of "Money Folder," on the superb album Madvillain, by Mad Lib and MF Doom.

If you find you hate both of them, I feel compelled to ask: do you hate rap music, or African-American culture? Because at this point, the two things are virtually inseparable.

[Greyskye]

175. Give me audio versions of the two, and I'll compare them.

I'm not critiquing poetry. I have no background or interest in it. Give me something I can listen to, and we can talk.

[sofa king]

177. Oh... jeez.

I don't know what to say.

[Greyskye]

182. ?

If you've read any of my comments up-thread, then you would know that my criticisms of rap/hip hop have more to do with the underlying music, as well as the rampant misogyny, glorification of drugs and guns, and the overlying 'bling bling' consumerism that seems to be encouraged.

None of the verse that you posted had anything at all to do with anything that I've been commenting on. Why in the world would I have a comment now? :shrug:

[Chovexani]

178. ...

If you find you hate both of them, I feel compelled to ask: do you hate rap music, or African-American culture? Because at this point, the two things are virtually inseparable.

I think suggesting rap music is inseparable from black culture is an insult to the culture. Black culture is about a hell of a lot more than one fucking genre of music (one that isn't even the best we've produced, and I say this as one who enjoys old school rap and Kanye West).

Then again, what the fuck do I know? I've just been black for 26 years.

[Greyskye]

183. completely agree

I love blues and jazz as much as I dislike rap and hip hop. What does that say about me and my appreciation of black culture? :shrug:

I'm guessing not a whole hell of a lot.

[sofa king]

184. I think you are misunderstanding me.

Of course one is a hell of a lot more than the other because one is a virtual subset within the other. Like it or not, that subset--hip-hop--has grown beyond mere music. It's a form of expression and information exchange which is daily broadcasting the state of African-American culture to the world. It's growing like a Wikipedea of the culture, too: in it you can find references to everyone and everything from Nikki Giovanni to Marcus Garvey to the Zoots.

And the world is eating it up as fast as it can get it; emulating it, studying it, adding to it, echoing it back... and sometimes railing against it. The closer you look at it, the better it gets--or the more threatening it appears, depending on the person, I guess. That's what I wish I had said above.

Don't be offended! Be proud! A few turntables and microphones and borrowed money and a desire to speak out have set the 21st Century on a path to change for the better, if we can just survive these bastards who run the show today. It's the sound of freedom for all of us, marching.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

187. That jumped out at me too...

and went to proving the point of the OP of the dangers of thinking/being sold rap = black culture. :eyes:

God, how limiting!

I don't like (much) rap/hip hop. I guess I must hate "black culture".

Even though I adore blues, soul, funk, old school jazz, gospel, contemporary African music, traditional tribal African music....and on and on....

Clearly neither of us knows fuck! :D

[PurpleChez]

232. HEAR! HEAR! You rokk!

"suggesting rap music is inseparable from black culture is an insult to the culture"

Actually, I think the more offensive suggestion is that black culture is inseparable from rap, and I'm afraid that's often the message that's going out: that black culture IS Chingy and Charmillionaire...don't bother with Langston Hughes or Duke Ellington...that's all so yesterday....

[AnotherGreenWorld]

181. I don't like either one; that doesn't mean I hate African-American culture.

And I used to think some of Madlib's music was decent--Shades of Blue and the Quasimoto album The Unseen.

[Karenina]

211. Inseperable? I hardly think so.

[PurpleChez]

231. Loved the quotation of G Brooks

but I totally disagree with the implication that to not like rap is to be a "hater." One can dislike any other form of music without risking social sanction...why is it that to dislike rap is to become a "hater" and -- MUCH worse -- to risk being accused of "hating...African-American culture"? Just because I don't like opera doesn't mean that I hate Germans or Italians. It should be OK to not like rap music...it's not sacred.

I believe that Wynton Marsallis doesn't like rap (called it the new minstrel show)...does that mean that he hates African-American culture?

[leftofthedial]

180. it's not music

it's the regurgitation of predigested modern pop culture

and a (stupid, lazy, ignorant) lifestyle

[GirlinContempt]

265. Excuse?

[leftofthedial]

268. and don't EVEN get me started on folk music!

[laruemtt]

192. i'm white and married to a jamaican

and i can't stand rap. neither can his entire jamaican family living in nyc. my jamaican-american stepdaughter liked it and listened to it (through headphones in the house!) through her teen years but not so much now that she's in college and has been exposed to a lot more. dh and i tried to expose her to good black music by giving her hendrix and stevie wonder and lots of reggae. looks like it finally took!

[Poppa]

202. Rap/Hip-hop

My only question is what the hell does rap or hip-hop have to
do with music? 

[Danger Mouse]

203. Check out Buck 65 and Sage Francis...two excellent, thought-provoking rappers.

Sage Francis, especially, is very talented, and covers a variety of topics, from his personal life, to social issues. He's had some very scathing critiques of the Bush regime. 'Makeshift Patriot' an outright slam of Bush, is one of his trademarks.
Buck 65 is more unusual, blending rap with country and other genres, creating something entirely unique.

[tofurkey]

209. I find it interesting as a cultural phenomenon

only in demonstrating how poorly blacks have assimilated into the general culture. If they are expressing their reality (crime, misogyny, poverty), and see success only measured in terms of being sports stars, recording stars or drug dealers, etc. that's a pretty bleak genre. And a disgusting statement on the state of black culture.

I appreciate anything that makes me think or makes me groove. Just not a whole lot rap/hip hop/R&B does. And I have a visceral reaction to most of it when I happen upon it on TV, for example. The posturing, screaming, jumping around of most rappers, for example, results in my immediately turning it off. Whatever possible artistic qualities it may possess gets lost in the delivery.

[Danger Mouse]

210. Here's some examples of Buck 65 and Sage Francis...

both are white, however. They're still really good!

Sage Francis 'Got Up This Morning' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiV2stUu5RE

Sage Francis 'Makeshift Patriot'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtNMly0aDUk

Sage Francis 'Majority Rule'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjQQouThzmQ

Sage Francis 'Broken Wings' (this is the one I definitely recommend)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdlPtBX0FDw

Buck 65 'Roses and Bluejays' (nice turntable work!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ujCcmUMr30

Buck 65 '463'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO9ar-kjUbw

Buck 65 'Wicked and Weird' (trippy vid)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wyyVh3uc5Y&mode=related&search=

Buck 65 'Devil's Eyes' (bizarre and pretty dark but cool)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSY-AOzv6Dw

Sorry for all the links but honestly, this is all worth checking out!

[PurpleChez]

233. Some like to make the point that what's popular and most famous

isn't the "good stuff" or the "real stuff" or whatever. And I don't doubt for a moment that that's 100% true. But that stuff on MTV and on the radio is what most people (and about 98% of kids) are listening to, and it is bleak and ugly.

[bettyellen]

244. are you saying you're seeing great commercial stuff on MTV that's NOT rap?

since i don't see you making that claim, it leaves me towonder why you are singling out rap.
why rap? there's so much other crap on MTV...

[PurpleChez]

254. Did I SAY that I was seeing great stuff elsewhere on MTV? No way, Jose.

I originally said that I wasn't interested in talking about music at all, since that's such a matter of personal taste, but that's where most of the conversation went and some of it was still good. I didn't single out rap, but rap was the topic under discussion. I'm not intending to question or belittle anybody's taste in music, but I still think it's pretty lame that when someone makes a critique of rap music that fans (and apologists) rush in to say that "rap is no worse" that other musical genres. Isn't it pathetic to be able to say nothing more than "rap is no more violent, misogynistic, homophobic, materialistic, etc." that other styles of music? While it may be a true statement (I'd say that there is a matter of degree involved, but I think it's true), it is at best a weak defense. As far as I concerned you don't have to defend your enjoyment of any artform, but when someone DOES make the point that rap is "no worse" than other music it still sounds sort of weenie. It's like acknowledging that it IS violent, misogynistic, homophobic, materialistic, etc., but it's OK because someone else is doing it to. When my students say stuff like that ("You can't write me up for talking during the test because another guy was talking too") it doesn't cut it.

[bettyellen]

257. your OP says "what am i missing" and you criticise people for being "defensive"

Doh! why are you suprised that people are answering you? every paragraph of your OP mentions music BTW, so I think you do protest a little too much. all the white videos i see have vapid consumerist and horrible sexist messages too, i never ever see people critique it though- why do you over look that to attack an entire genre you have such limited exposure to?
It's one thing to acknowledge you don;t know or "get" parts of a culture - it's quite another to condemn it and then admit, as an aside, that you don't know much at all of that you're criticisng. ignorance doesn;t equall bliss, it fosters bigotry.
and no one who defended rap said that all it is is "laundry list of negative things in POP culture", everyone here that KNOWS the genre said
it's about so much more. but i guess you're just not hearing it,(instead pretending people in this thread are making apologies or excuses) and THAT doesn;t cut it, in fact, it's weenie.

[PurpleChez]

279. I'm NOT surprised that people are answering, and

the vast majority of the responses have been constructive and very interesting

Look...I'm not gonna deny for a moment that the entirety of pop culture is vapid. Shallow. Depressing. Our society, on the whole, has been dumbed down to a staggering degree. Nonetheless, I think that there are valid critiques to be made about rap/hip-hop culture when it comes to things like violence, misogyny, etc. And there are legitimate responses that can be made by folks who feel otherwise, and a lot of that has happened here. But it's really pathetic if the best one can say is that "it's no worse than..." or that something else "is just as bad." That does nothing to address the issue. It's just a smoke screen. Like I said, it's like my students arguing that you can't write them up for something if someone else was doing it too. It's legitimate to object if you think that someone is unfairly bashing a performer, a genre, a fanbase, etc., but too many people will not even tolerate simple questions being asked. (I'm saying that you fall into that category, but elsewhere in this thread relatively innocuous statements have got others labeled as "haters" and even as "hating African-American culture".)

[bettyellen]

296. pointing out that other music has sex and violence is pointing out you are picking on rap

it's not "making excuses" rather - it;s asking you this:
why did you seem not to pick on the history of sex and violence in rock and roll? is it just less noticable when white people do it, because you grew up with that music? or you like and respect that music, so you give it a pass? it's intersting that you don;t comment on what's going on in your own back yard, but comment o, stuff you only know a fraction of. Hmmmm.

[PurpleChez]

304. First off...I'd meant to say "I'm NOT saying" that you'd said whatever...

sorry for the MAJOR typo.

But I didn't "pick on the history of sex and violence in rock and roll"...because I wasn't interested in that. But not because it's not a valid topic. If I asked about the misogyny in the Stones' "Under My Thumb" or in Cock Rock videos very few people if any would try to explain it away or "make excuses" or justify it or whatever. But even the most level-headed questions about rap (and I'm NOT suggesting that mine necessarily fit that category) bring up all of that stuff. A few months ago, in a DU thread after the Don Imus brouhaha and the discussion of rap lyrics that followed, folks were insisting that, in addition to "nigger", we must not object to rappers' use of derogatory terms against women, such as "bitch" and "ho" because...IT'S WHAT THEY HEAR GROWING UP. We are all exposed to crap growing up but most of us get past it. Part of my original question came from the sense that some people will not tolerate ANY critique of rap music, even when they would have no problem with similar critiques of other genres. And several posters to this thread have confirmed that, as comments that simply expressed honest dislike got some folks labeled "haters" and even accused of "hating African-American culture."

once and for all...Just because you're not also asking "what's wrong with rock" or "what's wrong with Britney-Pop" doesn't mean that you can't ask "what's wrong with rap"? That's like saying that you can't post a criticism of George Bush without also posting a criticism of Sen. Obama. I didn't give anybody "a pass". With all due respect, if anybody is making excuses, I'd say it's you...again, your point seems to be that we can't discuss the misogyny in rap unless we discuss ALL misogyny. And that's beyond a doctoral dissertation. That's a bookstore. The inability to do one doesn't invalidate the other.

[bettyellen]

312. actually the fact that you went out of your way to critique a genre you know little about is telling

as ignorant as you are, you still feel totally entitled to judge. gosh where'd you learn that sense of entitlement?
and the fact that you keep hinting that you think black culture is treated w/ kid gloves by society also says alot.
people here objected because you were talking out fo your ass condeming a whole genre on the basis of a small extremely commercal segement and very little knowledge, and even less interest.
now you're musing that "gansta rappers" and people driving "Pimped out Escalades" get special treatment?
LOL, they don;t- read this thread if you think they don't get just as much or more criticism as rock. you're totally off base if you think there's some sort of sacred cow in gansta rap. people have been trying to explain your limitation- you're ignorance accompanied by this sense of entitlement- and you remain blissfully above it all, entirely missing the point of what many have been saying.
the point is you really don't know jack, and your posturing here amounts to no more than ignorant, patriarchal bullshit.

[PurpleChez]

316. Read the original post

Rather than "critique a genre I know little about" I specifically said that I wasn't interested in talking about music. That's a matter of personal taste.

First off...I was talking about "rap culture" or "hip hip culture". Not Black culture. That was your choice of words. They may be related, but they are not synonymous. You say that no one treats rappers with kid gloves? Skim this thread and read how many times people are accused of being "haters" and even of "hating African American culture" simply because they expressed a dislike for rap or just for a particular performer. You keep talking about how rock is no different. Maybe it isn't. Hell...lets just say emphatically: it isn't different. But no one objects when you make a film like "This Is Spinal Tap." Or "A Mighty Wind." However, I have read articles about "Da Ali G Show" in which people actually asked whether or not it was appropriate to lampoon hip hip culture. Appropriate??? I'd sure as hell say that someone is at least THINKING about slipping those kid gloves on right about there. Why the eff shouldn't it be appropriate to lampoon hip hop? At least no less or no more than any other genre. I know I've said this elsewhere here, but it's a musical genre...it's not sacred text. A few months ago someone gave me a tshirt with a text-only logo from a company that is often associated with hip hop fashion. (Although the shirt itself is in no way hip...it's just a gray t-shirt with the company's name on it in 70s-style lettering.) Some people told me not to wear it because it might be seen as offensive. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about...not the artistic worth of music, not free expression or the right to create or experience whatever art you want, but rather (for instance) the idea that (1) a commercial clothing brand could be regarded as an element of culture, to the extent that it must be treated with something approaching "respect", and (2) that others would actually take this seriously.

Finally, in spite of your comments, the vast majority of responses that I have received have been very positive, with people either expressing their agreement, thoughtfully expressing disagreement, or (perhaps the most fun) making dozens of listening suggestings. I think you're seeing just what you want to see.

[bettyellen]

320. people were called haters for putting down music they don;lt know much about

because it comes off as bigoted and dismissive.
and you can bring in lots of silly defensive stuff i've never seen instead of addrerssing trhe fact that EVERY PARAGRAPH OG YOUR OP is about music,
and it all reeks of ignorance. and xenophobia. :yawn:

[Posteritatis]

230. Yay for the local guys

Buck 65 more or less got off the ground in town in/around Halifax, along with a bafflingly large pile of other artists.

This place is great sometimes; it has the full spectrum of both quality and genres in its music scene, and the city goes out of its way to support that.

[porphyrian]

217. Remember that rap song the Bears did back in the Eighties?

That one really sucked.

[Karenina]

236. Well... you are not missing

that a heavily promoted segment of the rap genre is being USED to portray AA society as a caricature to those dimwitted enough to buy into such (yes, they are legion and predominately white).

For the record, I'm a much older fart and don't generally like rap or techno or house or trance or freejazz or serial (although I've consistently found something to LOVE in each genre. My first favorite rap tune was Ray Charles' "Greenback Dollar Bill" 'cept we didn't call it that back then...) Take yer Tante's advice here:

SCRUPULOUSLY AVOID MTV!!! MY EYES!!!! AAAAACCCK!!! :freak::wow::freak:

I shut out M$Mu$iKKK (Korporate Kontrolled Krap) years ago PRECISELY because of your observation and have been much happier.

1) The foisting of Gangasta rap as the "gold standard" of black culture onto WHITE America and indeed the world, was accomplished with thought and foresight. Ah, M$Mu$iKKK, branding and their hare-brained promotions. Utter nonsense that sometimes gets people killed...

2) Your note of the use of language is quite a good catch. And THERE, my friend is where you will find the heart and soul of rap. It is quite the event when the verbal and musical meet on equally high levels but not something to be found while channel surfing. Usually due to the commentary. And NO, I'm not referring to x-rated language.

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.

How does the media shape perception? Is the Spears/Lohan/Hilton trilogy a useful media tool?

[Perry Logan]

240. Hip-hop is why songs are so crappy today. Today, a "good tune" is one with more than one note.

This is what comes from years of listening to bad poetry with a beat.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

243. If You Don't Like Don't Listen To It

I'll enjoy my man, Tupac, for both of us:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWOsbGP5Ox4

[PurpleChez]

280. OK. But that wasn't the point

[DemocratSinceBirth]

290. Maybe This Was

Here's some real old school:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-jVU5Lqxx0

[PurpleChez]

305. I'll probably never be able to check out all of the music suggestions that have

been left here, but I think it's great that so many people, instead of making stupid "hater" accusations, instead shared their favorite songs, with a very positive "Here! Try this!" attitude. Thanks.

[LWolf]

246. I have 2 answers.

First, my answer:

What are you missing? Not a damned thing. Even if you can find some without hate-filled, misogynic, gang-glorifying, violence-loving lyrics, it's still obnoxious. People flopping around all over the place as if all of the above descriptors of lyrics show some kind of courage, but they can't look you in the eye and express themselves without all of the physical drama.

Even when it's not hateful, I find it irritating in the extreme. Of course, I've probably not heard "the good stuff." If there is such a thing. I've heard the gang/violence/hate versions which express the antithesis of what I'd like my species to be, and I've heard xtian hip hop and the excreble "Hip Hop Harry." :puke:

That's the thing, though. As someone else who is in the last half of her lifespan, I know how precious time is. It's the one thing I never have enough of, the one thing that cannot be replaced. I'm not going to spend my time listening to a bunch of stuff I don't appreciate, looking for the "good" selections from that genre. It's not worth my time, when there is plenty of music that I love to fill my days and hours. I'm not missing it, and I don't think you are, either.

Second, my son's answer; he's a musician, and we've had this conversation several times:

You don't have to like it or agree with it, it's a legitimate form of self expression. Music is both an art form and a form of self-expression. You don't have to like the art or the genre to make it legitimate, and you don't have to agree with what somebody has to say to defend their right to say it. To quote him:

"Mom, you'd never censor the worst book; why would you want to censor music? Yes, it glorifies gangs, violence, and many other things you don't like. So what? Our whole culture is a gang culture. Does it matter if the gangs are roaming our streets, or roaming the whole god-damned planet under the gang-lord we call president? That's the culture of the U.S., and it isn't going away just because you disagree with it."

I have this conversation with him every couple of years, and he is correct. So, I don't like hip hop/rap, and I'm not going to waste time trying to find something to like about it when there is so much stuff I DO like out there. I am missing nothing at all.

Except the connection that can be made to the mindset of our society as a whole, which can lead me to wanting to "be" the change I wish to see, starting with music that will glorify that change, instead of the worst that we are capable of. While I'm not going to spend time looking for "the good stuff," I am going to pay enough attention to be aware, (or, truthfully, allow my son to do so, and to play examples for me), and I'm going to acknowledge that hip hop/rap is a legitimate musical genre. I'm happy to "miss" the listening to it part, thanks, but I'm not "missing" it's legitimate place as a genre of music.

[PurpleChez]

283. Right. I don't think I'll ever like most of the music

but I reject any and all calls for censorship, either in fact or in practice.

[LWolf]

295. Exactly. n/t

[Karenina]

248. DON'T MISS THIS!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1614518

[PurpleChez]

309. Please, Oh Please tell me that you're not trying to equate

a dislike --even an extreme dislike -- of rap music and hip-hop fashions with the virulent anti-Semitism of Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. Because that would be offensive for so many reasons. The mind-bending notion that one could equate a subset of pop music and its attendant fashion trends with a 3000-year-old culture -- and the dislike of the former with the attempt to exterminate the latter -- is one of the reasons that I started this thread. Holy Griff I hope that's not your point.

[Karenina]

324. Oh dear NO!!!!

To get there from here we would had to have discussed the REAL issues you pointed out in your OP, DIVORCED from personal taste in music. I'm NOT surprised you've now misunderstood my dot connection. I see some latecomers snarling at you and TOTALLY missing the point of MEDIA/PERCEPTION that you tried to raise.

Rap/HH is a worldwide phenomena. I'm particularly impressed by Deutsch-speakers who got it down in cadence and content.

The thread I cross-referenced shows what can happen when those GUIDED PERCEPTIONS take hold and run amok. The whole "THE OTHER" thing is our collective ignorance and fear which leaves us susceptible being controlled and TOTALLY VERAR$CHT by it.

AND IT REALLY I$ ALL $OOOO MUCH ABOUT DA MONEY!!! Cui bono?

Follow the money, spot the lie.

I'm a classically trained musician and would love to share my adventures in rap/hh (since you brought it up :evilgrin: ), heavy metal, jazz and traditional Irish music with you talking MORE about the PERCEPTIONS and media presentation than the music itself.

PM me.

[PurpleChez]

325. SO GLAD!!!!

and I'll IM ya...that's quite a diversity of musical styles there...I'm interested in hearing how they all come together.

[Arugula Latte]

255. I'm also 41PurpleChez and I have to say I have a similar attitude as you

I'll admit, I'm a caucasian who grew up in a well-off suburb, so that might have a lot to do with it.

I just never "got" rap very much. Some of it I like (the more melodic, less hardcore stuff), but not to a great extent.

Then again, there are a lot of things I feel I should like more and just don't. I can appreciate classical music, and I always thought I'd fall in love with it when I got older, but that never happened.

I am a huge animal lover and I am a huge cat freak, just batshit insanely wild about the kitties -- why don't I like dogs more? I don't dislike them, I just don't ever feel even a fraction towards dogs of what I feel towards cats. It's inexplicable.

Some things you just can't talk yourself into, I guess.

[Gregorian]

259. Here's hip hop. The roots. Check it out.

Edit- Now I'm in over my head. This is rap. But we need the hip hop phd's to sort one out from the other.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2pu6jAWvw8

[Starbucks Anarchist]

260. Okay (+ link to anti-Bush rap song):

If you're not into hip-hop (and "old farts" aren't really the target demographic, anyway), then that's fine -- IF you truly explore the genre and go beyond the current mainstream artists, 99% of whom have minimal talent as it is.

There are numerous rappers who are not misogynistic, materialistic, or conformist, and in fact, go out of their way not to be. Unfortunately, most of them do not sell as many albums as 50 Cent, Chingy, or the other talentless hacks.

Regarding Jay-Z's "mogul" status, it may have to do with the fact that he was a very successful rapper prior to becoming a CEO, and has also branched out into non-music products such as a popular clothing line -- not the typical CEO.

Here's a clip of 4o del Tren's "Supadubya," an excellent anti-Bush rap song, with lyrics posted as well:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7483742380305081101&q=Supadubya

SUPA DUBYA
4o. del Tren

a new age has dawned rising from the ashes of the innocent
my dead versus your dead let's see who can get more militant
blood for blood, pound for pound, an eye for an eye
my tribal god has told me that i must murder or die

you kill ten of mine, i must kill ten thousand of yours
preemptively decapitating all those who dare to oppose
shoot the motherfuckers now, and ask questions much later
terrorist, freedom fighter, innocent bystander, instigator

it don't matter, your ass is brown, you got a towel on top of your head
you pray to a foreign god, you pray to mine or i'll shoot you dead
patriots, sidewinders, m-1's and f-16's
the most beautiful display of destruction mankind has ever seen

i'm not an invader, i came here to liberate your people
i'm carpet bombing your mosques so i can build my church steeples
yeah, freedom and democracy, baseball and apple pie
buy and consume or go bye bye bye

now who the fuck do you think you are to go against my manifest destiny
i got a mandate from my god to smite all of my enemies
look at me the wrong way and i'll put your ass on my shit list
what? you want some of this, bitch? i'll take you for a ride, with no witness

what would jesus do? fuck that, you know it's just a front
to appease the bible thumpers while i do what the fuck i want
propagatin propaganda, live in fear and i'll protect ya
i'll raise the terror alert and you know that i'm gonna check ya

what books do you read, who do you talk to, where you goin, what's your habit?
gimme all your information right now, what's your number i gotta have it
big brother ain't got shit on me, i got eyes in the back of your brain
my name is supa dubya and i've come to bring you the pain

=============

the usurping bastard child of an archaic plutocratic system
what's my fucking name..?! if it was something else you'd have missed him
playing games with poppy's cash, let's bankrupt the company make bank on the options
fuck the pension plan, fuck aunt millie, neck deep in corruption

power to the people, no the power belongs to the white men in white collars
gathering every single day to worship in the temple of the dollar
mr greenspan, mr greenspan, tell me which way the wind blows
and why are all these people jumping out of their fuckin windows?

why are all these mothers crying for children that won't return
their blood spilling in the desert while the city of baghdad burns
the black blood that feeds the empire must never stop flowing
no price is too high, we must keep shocking and awing

it's the project for the new american century, the new world order
an empire disguised as democracy, prostituted and distorted
you think this shit started the day the towers came falling down?
no, it's an old idea we've been munching on and kicking around

we've been waitin to scratch that itch for a long time in mesopotamia
even though we all know the hijackers were mostly saudi arabian
pay no mind to the lies, the shell games and deception
we're here to fight for your freedom, we're only here for your protection

i don't remember guadalcanal, antietam, normandy or the mekong
i'm sending you and your neighbor's kid to die like i'm on playstation ghost recon
playin like i'm a top gun, mission accomplished on an aircraft carrier
workin hard every day to make the world scarier and scarier

a kinder, gentler version of daddy, check this conservative's compassion
read my lips, motherfuckers, time for lights camera and action
this power trip shit gets me higher than back in the day, doin cocaine
my name is supa dubya and i'm really fucking insane

====================

i'm settin the stage for a show for which you've never seen an equal
you thought 9/11 was tight, hold up, i'm gettin ready for the sequel
whatever the cost, whatever the price to buy me four more years
a few more terror attacks, more lies to keep you living in fear

call rush, call o'reilly, get on the phone with mr. hannity
spin the web of deception so we can continue with this insanity
don't ask too many questions, deploy weapons of mass distraction
prepare the foot soldiers, it's almost time to jump into action

the second coming of the rapture, the last holy crusade
i'm smiting infidels left and right, giving them a taste of my righteous blade
the power to destroy the world right here in the palm of my hand
i'll bring you eternal salvation, by air, sea and by land

with us or against us, only two roads that you can choose
the almighty is on my side, and there's no way that i can lose
it's the coalition of the sellouts, motherfuck the united nations
i'm readin the bible and mein kampf for my divine inspiration

the ultimate corporate state, only dreamed of by mussolini
in the innermost of the inner circles, rubbin elbows and sippin martinis
in bed with ceo’s, saudi princes and israeli ministers
i serve only them and follow their orders, no matter how sinister

i'm the schoolyard bully, gimme your milk money and play my game
the only bastard on the planet gettin by on his fuckin last name
can't even pronounce nuclear missile, but i know how to pull the trigger
kick back and relax while the empire grows bigger and bigger

fuck genghis khan, fuck caesar, fuck alexander the great
i'm bigger than all those niggas, this is the perfect fascist state
don't mess with texas, motherfucker, don't mess with me or i'll blow your brains
i'm super duper dubya, this is my world and my game!!!

===============

[Greyskye]

261. My thoughts on a 30 minute Hip Hop TV show

I wrote this up kind of like a stream-of-consciousness thing Friday night. Took me this long to find time to upload it DU. Let me know what you think.

======================================================

OK! So I finished watching Keith Olberman this evening, and I’m flipping channels. Nope, nothing on. Hang on, what’s this? On IMF (Dish Network channel 157) is “Hip Hop Society”. Hell, Hip Hop is mostly what I’ve been talking about recently. What does ‘info’ say? “10pm-10:30pm. Music/Art. Showcase of the ever-changing music of hip hop. Original Air Date: 4/17/05”. 2005? Well, that’s only 2 years ago, and after everything I invested in this thread, I owe it to Bornagainhooligan, spindoctor, and all of the other defenders of rap and hip hop 30 minutes of my time. What’s up first?

I’m going to be writing this as the show goes. It’s been paused for 10 minutes now while I break out my work laptop and fire up Word. Sweet, that will get me through at least one bank of commercials.

* Swizz Beatz – Money in the Bank – Top Down
o Oh boy. This isn’t boding well for me. The video has already started, and the first thing I see is a quick succession of images – about every 1 second – of a woman bouncing her breasts, bling, speakers, money, etc. The lyrics are about driving around in the pimped sports car, his bitch, some gang references I think (I’m guessing here, my apologies if I’m wrong), threats of violence, crotch grabbing a’la Michael Jackson, he’s just “doing my thing”, is that talking about dealing drugs? Again, I’m just guessing from the context. The background music was… ok. Some sampled horns that made it kind of sonically interesting. The rap was, well, rap. Really disliked the lyrics, delivery wasn’t really too painful. Verdict on a personal enjoyment scale of 0-10, 0 being physically painful to listen to, and 10 being a mental orgasm, I give it a 2; 3 if I manage to not understand any of the lyrics.

* Goin’ Through – Kalimera Ellada – Greece
o Hmm. this will be interesting, not sure what language he’s speaking. Looks like the group might be from Greece, sounds kind of like Italian. He’s doing a medium slow rap against some basic beats. Ho hum. Wait, it just got cool. On the chorus/break, a choir of kids just joined in. Again, no clue what they’re saying, but they sound great! The visuals look political/social in nature. I’m starting to like this one! Ok, I’m back. I stopped pausing in order to take notes, and just watched it the rest of the way through. This was good. The artist was railing against the government which was portrayed as corrupt, lazy, and perverted (reading porno mags hidden behind his newspaper while ‘working’ in his office), against the apathy of the people sitting at home flipping channels on their TV’s, and solidarity with the people in the streets. I think. Like I said, I don’t speak Greek. Oh yeah, I’m pretty sure now it’s Greek. PES Score: 7

* IMF Promo from “The Shop Boys”. Wow, that didn’t help my image of the scene.

* UGK – Featuring Outkast – Int’l Players Anthem (I Choose You)
o This starts off with a vignette, dude is getting married and his buddies are giving him a hard time. Groom wearing a kilt, ok, props for that. Medium slow romantic rap during the wedding ceremony. Some funny lines, some amusing stuff, whoops, just went into the stuff I really dislike. Super-monotonous bass line. Pimps, bling, more bling, “you’re not a pimp, you’re a fairy”, oh lovely. If I’m getting the lyrics now, he’s trying to talk his girl into letting him pimp her. Bragging about money. Sheesh, they just had to ‘quiet bleep’ so many words in those last couple lines I have no idea what they said. Some nice background singing in between the raps. Gratuitous side cleavage. Catfight into the wedding cake. Cake fight! Implied lesbian action, looks on peoples faces like, “now this is a wedding”. Fade out. Wow, what a schizophrenic video – I’m feeling a little dizzy lol. 10% sweet/amusing. 90% yuck. PES Score: 3.5

* Big Pun – Still Not a Player
o OK, had to watch that one all the way through as I was having a really hard time understanding the lyrics. Medium fast rap over an interesting rhythm track. Some really nice background singing with some solos throughout. I think that this was about the, err, extra-size rapper, I’m assuming that this is Big Pun himself, and him telling us how good he is in the sack. I think. As I didn’t hear (or at least, understand) him demeaning women, and as they certainly seemed to like him (big guys need lovin’ too I’m sure) I can’t call this one misogynistic, just egotistical (or desperate). PES Score – 6

* commercials

* Common – The People
o Medium fast rap over a very nice rhythm and instrumentation. Some really good singing on the breaks. Socially aware, a shout-out to Obama, gotta give props for that! A little too much time spent talking about how he isn’t letting fame get to his head, but overall I really liked this one. PES Score: 7

* Public Enemy – Don’t Believe the Hype
o Starting off poorly for me. Back to that simplistic bass line with an occasional squeal thrown in. Medium fast rap in an aggressive tone that immediately turns me off a little bit. It’s pretty obviously a studio album dubbed over concert footage – very enthusiastic fans. Not sure why, as the repetition is getting, well, repetitious. The message is, I think, “we’re not as bad as we’re made out to be”. Doesn’t that big clock flopping around on that dudes chest hurt when it bangs into him like that? Lots of bling. Sorry, but I’ve never found overt demonstrations of wealth to be attractive. OK, that was pretty dreadful. PES Score: 2. If I had to listen to it again it would rapidly get lower.

* Jason Fox – Featuring Hood Presidents – Aunt Jackie
o Medium fast rap over a fast but simple rhythm loop, that might get old really fast.. OK, he’s Jason Fox, we get it. You can stop telling us that already. Bragging about his record sales. Why do I care? OK, I admit it. When the Hood Presidents started rapping, I couldn’t understand them. I sometimes have a hard time following lyrics in songs that I really enjoy, because my brain starts focusing on the music and I lose track of what they’re saying. In this case, the words came fast, the slang was flowing, and old-fart that I am I couldn’t keep up. I tried… Really annoying snare drum loop kicks in every once in a while – it makes me momentarily happy when it ends. Seems to be a rap contest? Auntie Jackie waved at the end. PES Score: 2


Well, that was better than I hoped. What are the tallies for this micro-sample of the hip hop scene from 2 years ago? 7 videos, scoring 3, 7, 3.5, 6, 7, 2, 2, giving an average of 4.357 on the Personal Enjoyment Scale of 0-10, where 0=Physically or Emotionally Painful/Disturbing to Listen To, and 10=Mental Orgasm. That means that a PES of 5=”eh, that’s all right”.

Anyone familiar with any of these songs? Any comments or corrections?

[spindoctor]

272. Greek hip hop? It's ethnic not Athenic!

As defender of all things hip-hop I must give you kudos for this effort. The big question is of course, how does an overall score of 5 compare to an average half hour of MTV without Jackass?

I'm glad to see that it wasn't all bad. To show how much of a connaiseur I really am, I will admit that from all the songs above I know exactly zilch. The only group I know is Public Enemy that had some funny work in the past. They are probably considered Old School by now.

I can only imagine what the Greek artist sounded like. An old friend and good rock guitarist had a passion for Italo disco back in the 80s. I have never found out if he was serious about it or if it was just his way of making fun of us. Anyway, with my wife being from Southern Europe as well and the "joys" of internet radio, I have more than my fill of the dance music they produce in those regions. There's some serious crappy stuff in the charts there and if they do it in English it only gets funnier, definitely not better.

[Greyskye]

293. LOL

:thumbsup: for the subject pun. :D

I would guess that I would get aproximately the same PES for the average half hour of MTV as I did for this half hour of hip hop. Subtract 2 points if Jackass is included. I should have made it clear (but don't beleive that I did, not that I think about it) in any upthread postings, is that I have a really low opinion of pretty much the full spectrum of 'popular' music. My tastes run a lot more eclectic than that I suppose. (See my Pandora post up-thread for a more typical representation of what I listen to).

The Greek guy was serious, and so was the video. Even not knowing Greek the visuals (hopefully) gave me a pretty good representation of what the lyrics.

Thanks for your comments! :hi:

[j995]

285. this post gets a 9.5 :)

that Swizz beats song is considered subpar even by swizz beats fans, in my experience.

are you sure Public Enemy had "bling" on? They've been among the strongest anti-bling voices in hip-hop for most of their career. (i interviewed their founder Chuck D on this topic for a book entitled "Bling Bling: Hip-Hop's Crown Jewels")

[GirlinContempt]

291. I was wondering about that too

So I found it on youtube. I counted about 4 pieces of jewelery, 3 of which looked like gold, the forth was certainly not.

[Greyskye]

294. Thank you!

Glad to hear that my opinion on the Swizz Beats song is validated. :thumbsup:

Well, they did have that big clock flopping around on that one guys chest (that's not a young Flavor Flave is it?) I didn't record it, so I can't go back and check, but if I said it, I at least thought I saw it. I think the other bling I remember included fur coats, lots of chains and rings, etc. I don't remember if this was the one that people were throwing around wads of cash in or not, they are all kind of blending together for me now lol.

It sounds like you're the person to ask, as an expert in the topic of Bling Bling. :D Are fur coats and pimped up cars considered bling? Or is bling only personal jewelry? I had been thinking of 'bling' as any kind of ostentatious expression of wealth. Is that wrong?

EDIT:
Went back and checked it on YouTube. You guys are right, there isn't as much 'bling' as I remembered seeing. Mostly just lots of chains and the guy with the big clock flopping around. Thanks for keeping me honest! :thumbsup:

[GirlinContempt]

267. Self-congratulatory ignorance drives me mental.

Sorry, PurpleChez, I've read your thread and I don't have much to add to you question... I just have something to add to certain attitudes.

I just don't understand this attitude, and I see it all the time, of myopic nostalgia. People seem proud of the fact that they shun huge realms of art and talent, and somehow we're expected to respect it, because they grew up in a time when music was different. Willful ignorance and laziness are not attractive, respectable or endearing. Shlock and gold are found everywhere, and this debasing of everything past x or that isn't y is frankly revolting.

[PurpleChez]

284. I appreciate your comments

but there is a big difference between having an honest dislike of something and "shunning" it or "debasing" it. Yeah...some folks went overboard here with "it's not music argument", but elsewhere in the thread people got labeled as "haters" and even as "hating African-American culture" simply for not liking the sacred texts to Tupac Shakur. Simply disliking rap shouldn't bring down some social stigma.

[GirlinContempt]

289. There is a big difference.

And I have no issue with people who simply dislike a form of music, be it rap or punk or EBM.

[PurpleChez]

306. Exactly!

But what's EBM?

[GirlinContempt]

307. Electronic Body Music

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

269. Bleh, 50 Cent and Kanye aren't even good hip-hop

Underground stuff is where it's at. It's more socially conscience in the lyrics and because it's not trying to get played on every urban station in America or MTV/Fuse/BET every half hour, it can be far more interesting musically as far as the samples and beats it uses.

I wouldn't be concerend about them being called "moguls". I'm pretty sure everyone from Brtiney to Bono to Jay-Z is termed as a mogul nowadays. It's just an entertainment term.

[PurpleChez]

286. It's not that I'm "worried" about them being called moguls

rather, I think that's emblematic of the media and people in general losing their ability to filter out the silliness that comes to them from outside. Thanks for the comment.

[j995]

276. I'm no hip-hop evangelist. but..

The 50 Cent quote that you cite hardly indicates any sort of "blood feud," not sure how you drew that conclusion? To give a little context, 50 and Kanye are posing together for the cover of Rolling Stone next week.. they are simply milking their shared release date for a little friendly rivalry and extra publicity.

As far as why so many people have loved hip-hop so deeply for so long? if you don't get it by now, you're probably just not gonna get it. I mean this as no slight to you, merely saying that hip-hop is not for everybody and i've never seen much point in trying to convert non-believers.

I will mention that I'd be proud to have Chamillionaire as representative of my culture, his stuff is actually quite creative and thoughtful. No comment on Chingy.

[PurpleChez]

287. The "blood feud" thing wasn't supposed to refer specifically to

50 Cent and Kayne. Sorry for any confusion. It's just that, being a crotchety old white British invasion fan it still seems odd to me that the entertainment media will report on how so-and-so's posse killed someone from so-and-so's entourage, or that someone "bum-rushed the stage" at a music award show after feeling "dissed" when his "rival" won an award, as if it has always been perfectly natural for entertainers to have posses and entourges doing battle with one another, to bum-rush a rival during a televised awards show, etc.

"I mean this as no slight to you" -- it wasn't taken as a slight, and I appreciated your comments. Thanks.

[Enrique]

282. you're only missing a little

I'm sure there's some quality music there, in fact I've heard some of it. But my attitude is that it's not worth it to spend time near all the negative aspects of it, like the greed and the violence, and the jerkiness of some of the people in this thread that are making garbage accusations of racism.

Life's too short for that crap.

[Gregorian]

292. I left my wallet in El Segundo.

This is one of the hip hop tunes that really opened my eyes. It was just plain weird. And I loved it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpPkGZ6zhzA

[Gregorian]

301. Disagree, but this is culture.

Damn, this thread has me doing my hip hop research.

DJ Kool Herc is the original hip hop artist-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqfCluBH3qY&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m6eyD_wWzU


You know, there's one thing that keeps coming back to me about hip hop. More so than other genres of music. If you look at that video, you'll see and hear things that got passed on to other artists. Hip hop is like a relay race. One artist picks up the baton and runs with it. They pass it on to the next. It builds. I like that a lot. It's a community. The competition is not there. What I keep saying about the republican versus Democratic sentiments is that one believes life is competitive, and the other thinks that life is a community.

[Scout1071]

302. Jay-Z is a mogul.

He's heavily invested in all kinds of industries, including owning the name brand RocaWear and a very succesful club in NYC. Not all rappers are moguls, but Jay-Z is getting up there on par with Russell and Run Simmons.

[PurpleChez]

308. My point was that the term "mogul" isn't used outside of hip hop

No one else has their own designation. And if they tried I think most people wouldn't take it seriously.

[bettyellen]

313. well then! it MUST be a bad thing then, right?

check how you are demonizing the culture or bullshit. wtf is that about?
what word would you approve of?

[PurpleChez]

315. Did I say it was a bad thing? No...I did not.

I just think it's SILLY. Under any other set of circumstances it would be SILLY. If Britney-Pop executives or oil executives or CPAs or anybody else decided that they were now "Poobahs" or "Potentates" we would all think it was SILLY. We would laugh and then move on to something else. Something doesn't stop being SILLY just because rappers do it. We're talking about pop music and fashion trends, but some people carry on like it's the fourth great civilization of the ancient world. (Nile Valley, Indus Valley, Mesopotamia...I know I'm missing one...Yangtze?...7th grade world history was a long time ago....) The fact that you read any critique as "demonization" just proves the point. Nit-picking -- maybe. Trivial -- definitely. But DEMONIZING -- that's absurd. Frickin' absurd. If you like rap or hip hop, mazel tov! And if anyone ever tries to tell you that you can't buy it or listen to it or play it anymore I'll be the first person to object. But stop treating it like it's sacred, and drop the idea that anybody who dislikes it can be marginalized as a "hater" or even a racist.

[bettyellen]

319. the whole music industry uses the term- but you notice only- and put down blacks for it.

wake the fuck up. that IS bigoted. that is hating for no reason.

[LostinVA]

318. Actually, it's been used within the entire "pop" music industry

[bettyellen]

321. but it's only silly when black people do it!

[LostinVA]

323. Those silly black people with those made-up words

[ileus]

310. Eh...I'll take it or leave it...burned out on "new" stuff

Country phase from 92-93.
Grunge from 93- Now.
Classic rock forever...

Pop....Never.

[JesterCS]

311. I say... You cant spell cRAP without RAP. n/t