10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1....MELTDOWN.

[Tyler Durden]

The company which (granted, under economic pressure) originated the $5/day paycheck in the 1920's has decided to "cut it's way to profitability" essentially by reducing it's workforce about 20%.

The decision by Ford to close plants over the weekend and reduce production by more than 20% is a bell weather. Combine that with the crash landing happening in slow motion in the housing industry, the recession is now not years away, but might be weeks, certainly only months from now.

This isn't "Chicken Little" stuff here: it's happened before; the problem is that there is absolutely no safety net for Joe and Jane Sixpack. When the Ca-Ca hits the rotary air motion transformer this time, NOBODY gets a raincoat. We will ALL take a shit bath.

I used to think if I kept my hand in regarding allied medical health, the situation would not be so disastrous. WRONG. Memorial Hospital in Owosso is preparing for either buyout or shutdown, and it's a horse race to see which wins; but this is sort of moot. I don't see any area that will not take a major screwing this time.

This time, with the massive income shift, we are well and truly screwed. Better make friends with somebody good at deer hunting for a meat source, and start canning like mad this fall. We sure are.

What freaks me out more than anything is the complacency of the rich. Unless they are like the duck cartoon (Calm on the surface, paddling like MAD under the water), then they are even more clueless than the rest of us. What are they counting on...the re-institution of indentured servitude? Do they really think the vast numbers of soon-to-be NOT working poor are going to starve in peace and leave them alone? Are they really THAT STUPID? If so, Marie Antoinette is surely their poster child, except when told to eat cake if they have no bread, I don't think they will wait for the guillotine; too many guns out there. BANG.

I think this revolution might have an upside: with the methods of information storage, future generations will get a chance to watch this one in HD Wide screen, and thanks to the blogosphere, the real story will be out there in viral video real time for anyone who still has a gallon of gas to power a generator.

Maybe, just Maybe, we might learn the lesson once and for all. Granted, what survives this crash will bear very little in common with the current configuration of this and other nations; that is, if we make it without killing ourselves off, or, arguing long enough for some big mucking rock to do the job from space for us.

Who knows? Believe it or not, I'm a little optimistic about what will come after the breakup, or maybe we can ameliorate it enough to keep it from being the catastrophe it will be if we let it.

Whichever, we all have front row seats, and we've been handcuffed to the chair. SHOWTIME.

[tjwash]

1. I know.

The entire state of Michigan is getting bent over. It's absolutely depressing.

[Tyler Durden]

4. Where do you think I'm writing from?

I live west of Flint and work south of Flint in Pontiac. There are Bad parts of both of these cities that are starting to look like the Good parts of Port-Au-Prince.

The most amazing emotion I see and experience is paralyzing shock. These were two cities that were on the cutting edge of US society in the 50's, 60's, and most of the 70's. When Reagan and the "Bushites" pulled the chain on American Labor after the 1997 recession, the end of the working middle class as an institution was assured.

And STILL I see "W 04" and "SPORTSMEN FOR BUSH 2004" all over the cars here. That's the SECOND most amazing emotion I see: MASS DELUSION.

[tjwash]

40. I was in Flint not too long ago.

And saw the same thing; lot's of "W-04" bumper stickers as well. Very strange considering that the republican minions are so actively trying to tear down the very unions that built Flint.

The funny thing is, the places I go where I expect to see rabid Bush support, everyone I run into hates him. Everywhere I expect to see them absolutely hate Bush, they love him. I was in Dallas last week, and everyone I talked to there absolutely thought Bush was a disgrace. Go figure. :shrug:

[KnaveRupe]

58. But that's how the RW spin machine works:

they have blamed the unions that BUILT those communities for the destruction of those communities. Don't you know? It's all Labor's fault! If those greedy unions hadn't fought for health-care, and pensions, and good wages, and dental plans, and workplace safety, why those factories wouldn't have had to close!

Of course, the RW spin machine leaves unspoken the fact that if the unions HADN'T fought for those things, American workers would have the same crappy wages and horrific workplace conditions that exist in Mexico and China.

It is just sad how many people who should know better - people who owed their livelihoods to the Unions - have fallen for that kind of anti-labor propaganda.

[readmoreoften]

60. I was told today that my union won't "let me" teach more than two classes.

And I corrected the manager who said this: No. It isn't that my union won't "let me" teach more than two classes a year ($8000 in income BTW) it's that the union demands that full-time workers get real benefits and the university refuses to hire anyone as a full time worker because they're too cheap.

Anti-labor people sicken me. Especially anti-labor democrats. I can see being critical of some of the more conservative leaning unions-- but unions in general? Fucking delusional.

[undergroundpanther]

84. Anti labor democrats

Are NOT democrats IMHO. They are blood red REPUBLICAN thugs in a blue democrat suit.

[butterfly77]

61. Aren't these some of the people...

whose families needed these same unions in the past, and that is how they got to where they are today.

[Imagevision]

106. Hey FORD MOTOR CO. - keep your junks @ 18-20mpg...

the imports did you in in the 70's with their Honda's & Toyota's and it's the same ole song dummies!!

[cry baby]

2. nice rant...agree completely!

[Name removed]

71. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AndyA]

3. The newly poor will not be allowed to disturb the wealthy. That's what

the Concentration Camps have been built for. Complete with large gas furnaces (ovens?) and barbed wire around them. The poor people will be rounded up and locked up, for "our own good."

I think a recession might be just the ticket this Fall to boot the GOP out of office en masse. Perhaps a huge flip flop from a Republican controlled House and Senate, to a Democratic controlled House AND SENATE.

Then we can begin cleaning up the mess, and righting some of the wrongs forced upon us by the heathens currently in power.

[Tyler Durden]

7. There aren't enough Sodiers or Police to pull it off.

In a film called "The Warriors" there is a leader of the largest "gang" in New York City that says "The Streets are OURS, if you can COUNT..." saying also after he shows that the gang members alone outnumber the police 10 to 1, "...There are only 20,000 police in THE WHOLE DAMNED CITY!"

This time, the POOR are WELL ARMED, and have watched "Die Hard" and its ilk so many times that they can yell "YIPPEE TY YAY, MOTHERFUCKER!" in their sleep.

The "Powers that Be" may THINK that their camps and gated communities will save them...MASS DELUSION. The first shots fired will trigger nation wide riots that will make 1967 Detroit and Watts look like minor differences of opinion in an Ivy League Debating Society.

[undergroundpanther]

23. Technology will make up the difference

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18725095.600
http://www.au.af.mil/au/aul/bibs/soft/nonlethal.htm
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2005/def-nonprolif-sec/active-denial.html
http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA363126&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
You don't need alot of people to operate a pain cannon,just one to drive another to fire and one to shoot anyone attempting to shut it down.3 people, and this pain device incapacitates entire crowds.

[don954]

100. we cant even control IRAQ

what makes you think the govt can control a US Insurgency? Those devices are all nice, but one shot from a .50 BMG from a mile away will take them out..

[starroute]

37. Gangs are already inside the gated communities

This is a story from two weeks ago:

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/15214437.htm

Gangs find a haven in Poconos
In gated communities, members from the N.Y. area stake out drug turf with little interference.
By Michael Rubinkam
Associated Press

TOBYHANNA, Pa. - When New Yorkers and Philadelphians want to get away from the noise and crowds, they often go to the Pocono Mountains.

It's a tourist-friendly place of forests and streams and lakes, a place where you can play a round of golf, take in a show, angle for trout, or simply lose yourself on a country road. A place where a Crip or a Blood would seem... out of place.

Yet they are here: gang members from New York and its suburbs who authorities say have taken up residence in some of the private, gated communities of the Poconos, where they can stake out new drug turf with little interference from municipal or state police.

Many of these gang members are teenagers and young adults, brought here by their parents to escape big-city crime but instead bringing crime with them.

[Selatius]

51. No, there aren't, but there are plenty of "Loyalists" who would help them

Note the 33 percent of America that still stands behind Bush. That's enough of a population pool to raise an army of loyal brownshirts.

[Subdivisions]

33. Could you please provide

at least one link on information on these "Concentration camps" and their gas furnaces for those of us who might have been asleep during that lesson?

[undergroundpanther]

38. Oky Dokey

Some History first..

http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/archive/government/camp9-97.html

for our own good go to CAMP!!
http://info.detnews.com/history/story/index.cfm?id=90&category=government
For illegal immigrants..
http://www.ww4report.com/node/1940
http://hughesforamerica.typepad.com/hughes_for_america/2006/06/concentration_c.html
Katrina camps
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/08/katrina_fema_evacuee.html

More stuff
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/fema.htm
http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2005/octubre/juev13/42carceles.html

For the good of corporations this time..GO TO CAMP/prison if you want a job..that isn't outsourced..
http://www.prisonactivist.org/crisis/evans-goldberg.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/may2000/pris-m08.shtml
http://www.binghamton.edu/womhist/kro/doc019.htm
Potential LOcations..
http://www.geocities.com/Northstarzone/CAMPS.html

[Subdivisions]

56. Thanks!

I'm looking over some of the material now.

Thanks alot!

[Greyhound]

41. Can you please tell me how, in your opinion, the Democrats will fix

this mess? Lieberman is but one example of the "leadership" of our party. Of course there are many good ones (Kucinich and Feingold for example), but the numbers just don't add up, and so many of "ours" are involved with the looting and graft that has taken place, right up to their eyeballs.

I really do want some hope, and maybe you are aware of things I am not or have overlooked.

[undergroundpanther]

47. The only Dem's

I think that have a chance of fixing it are Dem's with guts like Kucinich. BUT if Kucinich threatens the pigs interests too much they'd assassinate him like Kennedy.These thugs do NOT want their lucrative gig blown. For they know it will be their end and the end of everything they have schemed through the twisting of law and with social engineering and stealth that they have slowly done to undermine freedom and sanity in human people since founding of this country.
Some people hate freedoms,unless it is THEIR OWN.

I myself don't have alot of hope.Not unless Americans rise up and are willing to gum up the gears of the industrial military machine and risk it all for change. Right now too many people are in denial or are think they have too much to lose to risk standing up . In my observation people can be remarkably selfish and shortsighted sometimes and in groups they defer responsibility so nothing is done to stop a crime(by standing).But in a disaster they come together and help each other in beautiful ways.Too bad it takes a disaster..

[Greyhound]

94. I wish I could disagree with your assessment, unfortunately that is not

the case. I do see hope in Mexico however, the citizens have been in the streets making their voices heard for weeks and are having a real effect although we don't hear anything about it here. The difference, IMO, is their leader. Obrador is out there with them, giving speeches, getting media attention, helping with logistical support, in short he is leading!

Can you imagine what could happen here if we had real leaders for a change? :kick:

[tbyg52]

52. As long as the voting is something approaching honest,

they will be *gone*.

[Stargazer99]

5. This 65 year old is more than ready to take up arms and support

the Boston Tea Party. I probably wouldn't last long in the fight but life is so tough and depressing it wouldn't make much difference at this point.

[Tyler Durden]

9. My WIFE wants to learn to SHOOT.

When she asked me to teach her, I was drinking a beer. I almost choked to death. She is now the PROUD owner of a STAR 9mm luger FIRESTAR, the matching pistol to my .45.

The guy down the street (a new friend in town, and fellow liberal) is an avid gun owner and an ex Infantry OFFICER up from the ranks. He wants ME to stick with my M1 Carbine with the SKS 4 power on top. HE wants to play Long Range Support with his .30-06 Remmington and scope, ("...reach out and TOUCH someone...").

I would rather go down fighting than go to the camps.

[acmejack]

14. I recommend the tactical shotgun to most novices.

That prevents them from carrying it around and getting in trouble. It is an excellent defensive weapon, point & shoot. Benelli M1 or M4 if you have lots of spare change, the old trusty 870 Remington otherwise.

[Tyler Durden]

17. Agreed, but I'm more concerned with her "Personal Support"

If they get that close, there won't be room to swing a Shotgun.

My buddy the ex-infantry officer/mustang has the shotgun. He wants me on my M1 .30 cal Carbine trying to, as he says, "...swat flies before they get too close. Then it's MY job with REMINGTON 12 GAUGE MAGNUM 'RAID'...")

Can you believe this guy is a LIBERAL DEMOCRAT? I'm just glad he's planning on being in command at the barricaides. It's a little beyond me.

[deaniac21]

135. I have an 870 attached to my M4.

[sendero]

20. Or in a pinch..

... or with limited funds, a Mossberg 500 or a Winchester 1300 Defender :)

[acmejack]

24. Field tested-proven effective!

[sendero]

27. Hehe...

... and available second-hand for $250!

Don't forget the ammo. I recommend double-ought buck!

[Jim Warren]

45. Now On Sale!

Get this baby


here now on sale!!!
http://tinyurl.com/qu85e

[sendero]

46. Sweet..

.... but I prefer the pistol grip! Some say you can't accurately aim one, but I don't find that to be a problem. It is a shotgun after all, perfect aim NOT REQUIRED!



$260 from these guys: http://www.islandtactical.com/browseproducts/MSBRG-500-12-20-PG-8SHT-PRKZ-H-SHLD.HTML

[Jim Warren]

48. Now that's what we're talking about

With heat shield no less

[undergroundpanther]

72. I can't shoot shit

My eyes are crap at a distance,, But there are other things nearsighted people can do..

[ninkasi]

98. So would I

I am in my sixties, and suffer from a disability which causes chronic pain. Living under the conditions that the neocons have planned for us would not be a life worth living. I would try to get my family to safety, and stay and do whatever I could. I hate these people for the destruction they have caused not just here, but worldwide. Patrick Henry once said, "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains, and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God. I know not what course others might take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

The path that Bush is leading only ends in loss of liberty for us, and enrichment for the ultra-wealthy. There is always hope that a miracle will save us, of course, but I have seen very, very few miracles in my time, and surely don't expect one now. I will not have my life end, though in any prison camp.

[roguevalley]

73. I'm with you, stargazer99.

[Peeves]

103. You sound like Jack Kavorkian ...

Taking up arms against your own country? :wow:

[Beelzebud]

6. It's coming quicker than most people want to admit...

[aikoaiko]

8. Toyota will hire them as they keep gaining market share.

;-)

[Tyler Durden]

10. You can't have "Market Share" if no one can BUY the cars.

I don't care WHAT you build: if you WERE making a fast $25K/year and now are walking the unemployement line, you AIN'T gonna buy ANY car, let alone a Toyota.

[dysfunctional press]

138. lots of people can still buy the cars.

toyota can hardly keep up with demand.

[Tyler Durden]

140. And WHERE will all the people buying Toyotas be WORKING?

I repeat: if the ENTIRE auto industry is operating at a 15% profit margin (high estimate) and 30% of the industry DIAPPEARS, sounds like the whole industry started operating at a loss...like now.

You aren't getting it: FORD sold FORDS to FORD WORKERS, GM etc. CHRYSLER etc.,

If we can't afford your TOYOTAS (I certainly can't) then who will buy them?

You have to MAKE MONEY to SPEND MONEY.

[lectrobyte]

11. The truly rich are well-insulated from this; the ones who think they

are rich are going to be out there manning the barricaded with the rest of us when they find out how much Rush and Sean have been lying to them.

[Tyler Durden]

13. You can't insulate yourself from a forrest fire.

The rich are in denial and self delusion. Think the scene from "Schindler's List" where the Investors from the Jewish Ghetto try to assert "Money is still Money."

Reality checks are not on their Palm Pilots' agendas.

[undergroundpanther]

31. Underground bunkers

Cheneys house a few years back was being worked on Construction caused deep earthy booms that irritated neighbors and kept kids up at night..http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A24386-2002Dec7?language=printer
what were they doing? It's a SECRET..
I think they were
Making a hidey hole for an asshole.

They will hide in secret vaults,guarded by the armed and brainwashed.Until the shit blows over than they'll own the world.
To stop them we cannot let them keep on hiding and being faceless corporations ect.. Identify these elite assholes that haught places like the G8 or exclusive resorts ,Smoke 'em out.Wonder if some tesla earthquake type device could be made by some home tech geek to collapse thier fucking hideholes in on their own heads..

[mucho macho]

70. Nonsense

Its nonsense like this that makes people call us extremists. GET OVER THE CLASS ENVY, GET OUT AND VOTE FOR CHANGE !!!!

DEAN in 2008.....for a change

[undergroundpanther]

80. LOL

Damn right I got class envy,I'd like to be able to afford to get out of my bad living situation. I'd really like to afford some heating oil before it gets cold as shit...I would love to get a a simple surgery to help myself to not feel suicidal over gender issues,And to get some cysts taken out of my thigh that makes my leg go numb.I'd love to be able to afford transportation that is reliable,and to get some decent glasses so I might be able to drive..

Rich pigs have taken so much from us they are THIEVES. They do not deserve all they have.They are no better than me or you or anyone..They live in luxury while most starve, or struggle And that is called INJUSTICE.You like Injustice and financial abuse? You call hating abuse Envy,??WTF?

Oh and DO fix the voting machines if you want FAIR elections..two elections have been stolen already..

Moderate fool...

Moderate Conspiracy
By Underground Panther in the Sky

Mildness dulls your points to shame
in a moderate revolution.
Compromise sells out your soul
for an a practical solution.
In a moderate revolution
All opinion busts upon the scene
quite unobtrusively..
Don't ask the questions that make you feel paranoid
if you do your peers might get annoyed

Here come the moderates,
down the middle of the road
In button down shirts
and sensible shoes
Old Navy khakis
and covered up tattoos.

They're saying'
All You radicals must compromise,and play nice,
Put away your tin foil and take our sensible advice!
Or our lukewarm future is neutralized!

It's a moderate conspiracy
And we don't dare disagree..
They sit on the fence all day,
looking down at me..

Moderation can benefit us all.
It's made of compromise and endless dialog,
So of course we all must agree..to agree..

Moderates aren't here to offend us,they say
I still wish They'd all shut up,'n go away
Maybe they'll grow a backbone,get some teeth,
have an opinion turn up the heat..
They will go only if we compromise our agendas.
And throw our crazy dreams away for our own good.

There's a moderate revolution.
It's conspiracy everywhere... and nobody cares..

Moderate Agents of the status Quo
Clean cut consumer Milquetoasts
They are so appropriate to the core
Takin' us over everywhere they go
Just a toxin disguised as a mild unassuming bore.

.....Just as planned.

Moderate Revolution,Coming to a Dairy Queen Near you in VANILLA of course!!

[Tyler Durden]

90. Welcome to DU....

And YOU go take a course in world economic history, TOO.

Class envy my ass. You need to look at the Rich/Poor gap, then compare it to the one at the fall of the Roman Empire, the decline of the Italian City States, the failure of the Hanseatic League, the War of the Roses, the French Revolution, the American Revolution, and last but not least, the Bolshevik Revolution.

Don't they TEACH this shit anymore?

[Raksha]

93. I would think that anyone who supported Dean for 2008

would totally understand class envy.

Something doesn't add up here...

[Greyhound]

42. You can if you've already bought your estate(s) in other parts of the

world. The truly rich will be given warning before the shit - fan connection is made and will hop on their private or military provided transports out.

[butterfly77]

50. The world hates bush...

where will he go?

[Selatius]

55. Who cares? Most corporatists don't

You honestly think a billionaire industrialist who isn't as well known as GWB but helped to finance his rise to power would care if his strawman called Bush is killed by angry poor people? No. If anything, he will be laughing his ass off at the fact that he, the REAL bad guy, got away, and all we got was essentially one of his "servants."

[Greyhound]

95. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, anyplace that is controlled by another dictator

of his ilk. Remember Idi Amin lived out his days in luxury in Saudi Arabia (I think, definitely one of the ME OPEC nations)

[Selatius]

53. Yes, several dictators have done this when their subjects revolted

They simply fled the country into exile and began forming organizations to take back the country, or they simply lived out the rest of their days in luxury and not bother to return the money the people once had that now is in his bank account.

[Hubert Flottz]

12. First they came for the steel workers, but I wasn't a steelworker so

I didn't do anything...anyway you know the old story.

[ldf]

86. i think maybe the first

were the air traffic controllers..

no?

[Blackhatjack]

15. Corps are looking overseas for consumers to buy their products...

...and the transformation of the "Middle Class" in this country from first tier consumers to involuntary financial indentured servitude is right on schedule.

They need us to do the work, since they will never work a day in their life.

[Tyler Durden]

18. "We are ESSENTIAL workers. They NEED us!"

Where have I heard this before...?

[undergroundpanther]

26. Bwahahaha

Exssential,? there is always a replacement,people have kids all the time,kids can be molded to be more obedient and a better worker than YOU!

[oc2002]

16. People need to suffer before a real change can begin to radicalize them.

If you have nothing to lose, you will do anything.

[Tyler Durden]

19. I figure that will start in less than a year...

We are one big recession in a cold winter away from it in my opinion.

[earth mom]

29. That's why Mexicans fought the crooked election in Mexico...

because they had nothing to lose!!!

Meanwhile most everyone in this country scoffed that the election of 04 was stolen even though there was and is a boatload of proof! Proving the election was stolen is "too hard" and impeaching the bastards in office is "too hard"! Most people are far too comfy in this country!

Better Wake the Hell Up before it's too late!:grr:

[Peeves]

104. Boatload of proof?

Show me your 'boatload' and I will jump on the bandwagon with you. (You must have more than wild conspiracy talk)

[earth mom]

114. You need to read this:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

"The issue of what happened in 2004 is not an academic one. For the second election in a row, the president of the United States was selected not by the uncontested will of the people but under a cloud of dirty tricks. Given the scope of the GOP machinations, we simply cannot be certain that the right man now occupies the Oval Office -- which means, in effect, that we have been deprived of our faith in democracy itself."

Get it?! Good!

[FighttheFuture]

110. I agree but Amurica is still to fat, lazy and stupefied to do much... yet.

Amuricans will need much more pain. The hopeful thing is the greater the disparity of wealth perceived in a society, the more crime and danger there is. So, we do not have to be at Iraqi economics to see this meltdown happen. We just need the rich to keep on getting richer while the poor and middle class are sucked further and further down with basics such as clean water, air, food, shelter and healthcare denied more and more. As the corporations export more and more jobs, there will be less loyalists in the middle to keep the rising tide at bay. Illegal immigrants can only damm it up for so long.

Then.... Boom!!!

Unless real changes occur in our economics, corporations are reigned in and money taken out of politics, a Democratic administration will probably just delay the day of reckoning. In some ways, Bu$hitCo is bringing into sharp focus much faster what is coming down the pike in this century with Oil and other resource depletion coupled with rising countries like China. Instead of 2030-2050 timeframes, we will hit this shit in 2012 - 2020!

[undergroundpanther]

21. They are prepared

And we the taxpayers and workers especially in tech and weapons and military.chemical industrial jobs collectively bought it and made it for THEM each worker in some industrial plant only sees and develops a piece of the puzzle product than it comes together,gets'classified'..Soon it will seep in the horror that we paid for and made the murder and indentured servitude the psychopathic rich are desiring so THEY control the world and have it all for themselves..

There are too many secrets,too much power in too few hands.And the hands that have it are corrupted abusive and sick beyond belief. Maybe that's why they get away with it,we are in denial about how sick these people are.

Read it and weep at the expensive insanity of old white crusty rich psychopaths afraid to share,face poverty,to feel any pain, lose and die...This is the price of having bully cowards in power.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6014
http://www.wanttoknow.info/050708nonlethalweapons
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10268690/
http://www.sunshine-project.org/publications/pr/pr190202.html
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Dissent/Globalization_Repression.html

Who can fight the Beast? Sorry fundies..there is no savior. Sorry UFO buff there is no mother ship we were duped and used and led and let ourselves give up our inner locus of control.You forget to care,you don't get involved and challenge and beat down an'alpha bully when he dominates a workplace,a gathering, a home,a school or anywhere else.If you leave intervention and justice,judgment of a bad character to others with"authority" to fix-it.

THIS kind of scenario is the end product of what happens when human rights and the philosophy behind what it means to be a decent fair person in a decent self policing (self policing begins with YOU making BOUNDARIES on what types of bullshit you will not tolerate out of people around you and you protect those boundaries regardless of peer pressure or what"authority" figure gets pissed off) in a community are ignored.

WE and before us our comfortable parents,should have said NO to the "military industrial complex" long ago when it was a weaker more covert menace,and shut it down even if it meant upheaval and stress and not being able to feed ourselves or our kids.Dying fighting for for freedom from bullies is better than"friendly fascism.. The curtain of illusory freedom is drawing back,and look at the brick wall we are going to be smacked right into it until we submit to the pampered parasite predatory thugs that dominate the world through their loyal sycophants just doing their job to feed their kids..Same excuses we use to keep doing as we are told and to not ask questions..hmmm..

[populistdriven]

22. My middle class hood has been plagued by car break-ins

Every single car on my street that has remote openers was broken into over a 3 day period. The older beaters with the manual locks - like mine :) - weren't touched.

I am considering arming my self as well but I need to do it cheap since I don't want to put it on a credit card - suggestions?.

[undergroundpanther]

25. ON star...

Can open your locks anytime it damn well pleases,Don't you think it could lock it too,and track where you drive and cut off your car engine?
http://www.futurequest.biz/gps_location.htm
Besides you might already HAVE it!!
http://www.engadget.com/2005/01/18/police-can-add-gps-to-your-car-without-you-knowing/
Maybe that's what the break-ins were for?

Our neighborhood had it too,but I saw a guy looked like some business lackey looking into the trunk of our car,He came over realizing I opened the door,he had a cell phone on and looked like a tech geek on call dude. He put his hand in his pocket as he walked up to my door nervously apologizing..He was saying he was"concerned"' cause he drove by our house and saw our trunk was open.We live in a residential side street,and I had not touched my trunk that day,I had the flu. Neither did my partner we were sick hiding in the house didn't go anywhere for 2 days and this business lackey type I never saw before isn't in my neighborhood is fucking around with my trunk?..Unh Huh.Riiight I think they put in GPS.Could not find the device,don't know what it would look like anyway.. I have no clue how long he was poking at my car before I opened the front door on a hunch. His car was parked in the street..

[Vincardog]

32. get yourself a old reliable shot gun, Then get a small rifle and reloader.

[undergroundpanther]

35. I have a mental health history

They ain't gonna let me have a gun. They let the psychopaths, racist thugs ,and fundie freakazoids have them. These assholes are called sane because they are bigot liars and never have the GUTS to go to therapy...

http://www.bazelon.org/takeaction/archive/2002/12-18-02update.htm#gunbill

All us loons are DanGerouS..what Bullshit..Maybe it's because we are an opressed class?

Their power is not distant and impersonal; it reaches into every home in America, and it works its will during nearly every waking hour. It is the power that shapes and molds the mind of virtually every citizen, young or old, rich or poor, simple or sophisticated.
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=4231


dad... what's a terrorist?
This piece, by David Campbell, was published in The Age, 22/04/2004.

dad... what's a terrorist?
Well, according to the Oxford dictionary a terrorist is "a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims". Which means that terrorists are very bad men and women who frighten ordinary people like us, and sometimes even kill them.

Why do they kill them?
Because they hate them or their country. It's hard to explain ... it's just the way things are. For many different reasons a lot of people in our world are full of hate.

Like the ones in Iraq who are capturing people and saying that they'll kill them if all the soldiers don't leave?
Exactly! That's an evil thing called "blackmail". Those innocent people are hostages, and the terrorists are saying that if governments don't do what they want the hostages will be killed.

So was it blackmail when we said we'd attack Iraq and kill innocent people unless they told us where all their weapons were?
No! Well ... yes, I suppose. In a way. But that was an "ultimatum" ... call it "good blackmail".

Good blackmail? What's that?
That's when it's done for good reasons. Those weapons were very dangerous and could have hurt a lot of people all over the world. It was very important to find them and destroy them.

But Dad ... there weren't any weapons.
True. We know that now. But we didn't at the time. We thought there were.

So was killing all those innocent people in Iraq a mistake?
No. It was a tragedy, but we also saved a lot of lives. You see, we had to stop a very cruel man called Saddam Hussein from killing a great many ordinary Iraqi people. Saddam Hussein stayed in power by giving orders that meant thousands of people died or were horribly injured. Mothers and fathers. Even children.

Like that boy I saw on TV? The one who had his arms blown off by a bomb?
Yes ... just like him.

But we did that. Does that mean our leaders are terrorists?
Good heavens, no! Whatever gave you that idea? That was just an accident. Unfortunately, innocent people get hurt in a war. You can't expect anything else when you drop bombs on cities. Nobody wants it to happen ... it's just the way things are.

So in a war only soldiers are supposed to get killed?
Well, soldiers are trained to fight for their country. It's their job, and they're very brave. They know that war is dangerous and that they might be killed. As soon as they put on a uniform they become a target.

What uniforms do terrorists wear?
That's just the problem ... they don't! We can't tell them apart from the civilians. We don't know who we're fighting. And that's why so many innocent people are getting killed ... the terrorists don't follow the rules of war.

War has rules?
Oh, yes. Soldiers must wear uniforms. And you can't just suddenly attack someone unless they do something to you first. Then you can defend yourself.

So that's why we attacked Iraq? Because Iraq attacked us first and we were just defending ourselves?
Not exactly. Iraq didn't attack us ... but it might have. We decided to get in first. Just in case Iraq used those weapons we were talking about.

The ones they didn't have? So we broke the rules of war?
Technically speaking, yes. But ...

So if we broke the rules first, why isn't it OK for those people in Iraq who aren't wearing uniforms to break the rules?
Well, that's different. We were doing the right thing when we broke the rules.

But Dad ... how do we know we were doing the right thing?
Our leaders ... Bush and Blair and Howard ... they told us it was the right thing. And if they don't know, who does? They say that something had to be done to make Iraq a better place.

Is it a better place?
I suppose so, but I don't know for sure. Innocent people are still being killed and these kidnappings are terrible things. I feel very sorry for the families of those poor hostages, but we simply can't give in to terrorists. We must stand firm.

Would you say that if I was captured by terrorists?
Uh ... yes ... no ... I mean, it's very difficult ...

So you'd let me be killed? Don't you love me?
Of course! I love you very much. It's just that it's a very complicated issue and I don't know what I'd do ...

Well, if somebody attacked us and bombed our house and killed you and Mum and Jamie I know what I'd do.
What?

I'd find out who did it and kill them. Any way I could. I'd hate them for ever and ever. And then I'd get in a plane and bomb their cities.
But ... but ... you'd kill a lot of innocent people.

I know. But it's war, Dad. And that's just the way things are. Remember?

http://diogenes999.blogspot.com/2004_09_01_diogenes999_archive.html

[ninkasi]

99. Permit me to venture a guess, undergroundpanther

Does your mental health history have anything to do with your refusal to allow society to dictate your gender identification, and your lifestyle? Are you...gasp...DIFFERENT? Being sent to asylums treating mental illness was a common tactic in the Soviet Union, remember? Apparently, you have not swallowed the kool-aid, and insist on thinking for yourself, instead of Fox news telling you what the administration wants you to think.

Well, I agree, they probably wouldn't allow you to have a gun, because you are unlikely to fire it at somebody who commits the sin of being a member of a minority, or who does not approve of Bible-thumping, ignorant bigots having power over the president. Or, speaking of being an ignorant bigot, Bush himself. Stay strong, fellow DUer, and I will think of you and your partner with loving, positive thoughts. It's bad enough to live in the kind of society we do, but I have a disguise. I'm a white, married, older woman, with children and grandchildren and great-grant children, I am not able to walk without using a cane, and am about as un threatening as a person can be.

For you, and others, who dare commit the sin of not being the way the narrow minded want you to be, I have only admiration, that you can cope with the stress of it. Bush, and his gang, are the ones destroying this country.

[Greyhound]

43. You live FL, go to the swap-meets/gun-shows. Unless they've passed some

new law there I'm not aware of, then go to GA or AL. If that doesn't work, just check the local classified ads, there's always a wide variety of arms available from private citizens (BTW if you do this, take off your tinfoil hat liner and don't drive up with a bunch of KillBush stickers on your car). Becoming armed in the south is the simplest thing to do.

[elehhhhna]

44. pawn shop.

[heartofthesiskiyou]

59. Ask the Russians

A military built to defeat the biggest most technical military in the world could not stand up against the millions once they got into the streets. Don't worry about guns, we'll take theirs away and use them against them. And RWers and alleged christians that did it to us by buying the corporate propaganda, that attempt to stop the will of starving masses, in the beginning will be the first to go as those enemies will be the easiest to see.

The repukes are as stupid on what they have set into motion as they are on Iraq. They are in denial. Unfortunately they have set a course that will bring their own demise. They would have been better off sticking to fairness. But no they wanted it all and thought they could take it. Tomorrow's no-fly lists will be ours and will contain the names of every CEO and corporate exec that did this the the people. In the final analysis, it is capitalism itself they are destroying. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. What fools.......

[undergroundpanther]

63. Your post makes me smile

Because I do hope the assholes and corporates and deluded thugs whomever they are,are stopped, made to face up to their crimes (whatever that entails)forced to fix the damage,give up power or die,lose their status wealth and trust,and can never do the damage they have done to us all again.I hate the sick asshole bullies.. I wish they were gone .

[undergroundpanther]

28. In case you wanna know..

http://www.shoutwire.com/comments/22158/Guerilla_Warfare_An_Introduction_To_The_Art_Of_Revolution
http://www.baader-meinhof.com/students/resources/print/minimanual/manualtext.html
http://www.ainfos.ca/01/jun/ainfos00170.html
http://www.ainfos.ca/en/
http://www.infoshop.org/focus/protest_tech.php

[butterfly77]

30. I have been saying a lot of the...

thoughts mentioned here for a while now, the war will be here and it seems as though that is what they want. I just know that they can't be that stupid to think that it can't happen here the rich are blind to the reality of how deep the problems are in this country. They may have certain weapons but some may be overpowered and those may be taken by the people and used against them. Will all of the guards fight for them against their own families?

[undergroundpanther]

34. Families reject their own kids

if their son or daughter is gay so of course it's easy to see them turn.. Shit parents will turn on each other and their kids given the right pressures. Most child abuse and domestic violence happens IN FAMILIES you know and it IS a common problem.Especially in families under stress.Most divorces occur over MONEY..or SEX.

In a national survey of more than 6,000 American families, 50 percent of the men who frequently assaulted their wives also frequently abused their children.28
http://www.endabuse.org/resources/facts/

http://www.letswrap.com/dvinfo/stats.htm
The number-one cause of women's injuries is abuse at home. This abuse happens more often than car accidents, mugging, and rape combined.

The media is making domestic violence seem almost "chic" or"exciting" almost every prime time show is rape,battering,pedophiles,fathers mothers at each others throats..wonder why? Could it be a sick NORMALIZATION process for nefarious reasons?.

[butterfly77]

36. So what you are saying is that...

the wire tapping NSA and other measures that bush has been trying to pass is to fight us the american people. The war against terror is against us the people, so thats why he needs to go into all of our records and information.

[undergroundpanther]

39. Yep!!!

Rich people FEAR poor people because they are con men and are rich only because they deprive others of the means of surviving and they have duped society into accepting living hard,because the rulers are bullies and people do not like being abused past a certain point.So bullies get violent if people they oppress just don't live like dirt for them and do as they say...The poor and oppressed have their dignity and self esteem assaulted from every direction,just like in dysfunctional families where the batterer tears the target down until the target accepts and internalizes the abusers and the abusive state and corporations hatred, injustice the abuser causes them.
http://www.unknownnews.org/060131a-Panther.html

Apply this definition below ,maybe with a few tweaks in wording and apply it to how to CORPORATIONS..treat workers especially low wage and temps! Sound Familiar?

What kind of behavior is financial abuse?
Financial abuse can include taking your pay cheque, or withholding money from you so that you have no food or cannot get necessary medical treatment.
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/09/09/Business/Gasoline_buyers_say__.shtml
Other forms of financial abuse may not be crimes but may contribute to emotional abuse, such as controlling money very tightly.
http://www.csed.state.ak.us/FAQ/FAQ_Employer_Withholding.asp
http://www.gov.ns.ca/just/spousalAbuse.htm

http://www.unknownnews.org/050607a-Panther.html

[Tyler Durden]

92. BINGO!

Give that man a cigar.

It isn't IF there is a secret police, it's how big and powerful they are. There is ALWAYS a secret police. That's not paranoia speaking, that's historical fact.

[earth mom]

97. Everyone needs to recognize who the REAL terrorists are.

This was published a year ago, before Katrina.

The London Bombings and the Class War

by Dave Stratman

July 11, 2005

<snip>

Of course such momentous doings as 9/11 or the war in Iraq or the London terror attacks would never be undertaken just to revive the reputation of one politician. The ruling elites of the US and Britain are playing for huge stakes at home and in the Middle East, which is why the actions of their chosen politicians, Bush and Blair, however deeply unpopular they may be with ordinary citizens, have overwhelming support within ruling circles. The Democratic and Republican parties have never flinched in their support for the war. The US Senate recently voted an additional $82 billion for the Iraq war by 99 to 0. It is only because the stakes are so huge that ruling elites would dare such desperate measures as terror attacks on their own people or illegal wars of aggression abroad.

<snip>

"The terror attacks on the people of London, the 9/11 attacks on Americans, and the Iraq war itself are not matters principally of foreign but of domestic policy–a fact which has been neglected by most anti-war commentators, who tend to view these things only in terms of American (or British) imperialism. While the main victims of the war on Iraq are the Iraqi people, the main purpose driving the war and its attendant terror is the class war by the American elite against American working people. The war in Iraq is being waged as a means of controlling ordinary Americans (and British), providing the opportunity for transforming American society into a military and police state through such measures as the Patriot Act, airport searches, the suspension of habeas corpus at Guantanamo and in the case of Jose Padilla and more than 1,000 persons detained in the US after 9/11 without charges or due process, and for the unprecedented attack on pensions and retirement and other aspects of working people's livelihoods. The ruling class could never get away with these things in the absence of a war, which had to be created under false pretenses for the purpose."

<snip>



http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/War/London.htm

[angstlessk]

49. Why do you think the ultra rich are doing armed, gated communities?

Safe rooms? They KNOW...THEY know..it is only a matter of time and they are doing all they can to protect themselves from the 'downtrodden'...6 billion vs 1 million cannot hold forever.

[KamaAina]

54. Remember the recruitment scene in F9/11?

In the shopping center parking lot?

That was in Flint, Michael Moore's home town.

Now you know why they're doing so well there, relatively speaking. Everything there has been gutted by the Reagan/Bushies and the corporatists who back them. :(

[tomreedtoon]

57. Okay, guys. Who are you going to KILL first?

I mean, if things are going to be this bad, the only out is to arm ourselves to the teeth and start shooting, right? This is what the New Left guys dreamed of in the 70's, with groups like the Weather Underground - the people who threw away the flowers-and-peace-symbols politics and started blowing up college libraries. So who are you going to kill, and what weapons are you going to use?

I don't use "dripping sarcasm" icons, because this is not funny.

The original post is nothing more than fearmongering. It's the same business pulled by Bush and Company, only hitting a different area. It is contemptable rabblerousing and will accomplish nothing. Even if things get this bad - and they very well might - waving a bloody banner is offensive.

And I have heard at least one response to this question, from my sister, a woman who voted for Bush because she saw him as a "business" candidate. She asked me to find her a formula for nerve gas from the Anarchist's Cookbook. She wants to bury canisters of it in her lawn, that can be electrically triggered from her house when the...(racial epithet deleted)...come boiling out of the Saint Louis ghettos to rape and kill white women, including her.

THAT is what posts like this incite.

[butterfly77]

62. She doesn't need this post to incite her or others like her...

these are the people who see things as this what is good for the goose is good for the gander until it hits their doorsteps. The policies of her party are creating a monster that they wou't be able to control and this has been going on for years. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. They want people to live on the streets so they are getting what they want over here and Iraq. Some don't realize how truly bad it is in this country.

[tomreedtoon]

96. You've obviously bought into the fear, so answer the question.

Who are YOU going to kill first?

You don't realize the nature of what is going on. You don't realize that you're being herded into fear and into decisions you shouldn't have to make. You don't realize YOU are being used the same way that the most virulent Bush supporters are being used, although by different people.

Try this statement on for size: "Don't live in the past, unless you enjoy being crushed by guilt. Don't live in the future, unless you enjoy being hounded by fear." Guess which one applies to you?

[butterfly77]

132. Its not about who I would kill first..

I would hope not anyone. I am not living by fear nor guilt. I don't need anyone to tell me what to fear.Your reality is not mine so don't tell me what I think or feel. Tell me what will it take for you to stand up and take this country back from the hate mongers. You seem to be afraid. There is a time to talk and a time to fight. Your president ( if you are from this country) doesn't seem to understand anything but the fight part of the equation. And your friend who has planted the gas in her yard seems to think like him, so if she is bringing it to the people she should expect the same. I have not incited violence but you seem to think that it won't happen, at the rate it is going in this country it will and soon.... By the way she better make sure she isn't sabatoging her self with the gas.

[Tyler Durden]

65. They don't need ANYTHING to incite them

I was gassed in the antiwar protests of 1971. An armed guard in a gated neighborhood in Houston drew down on me in 1997.

Nothing needs to be INCITED. IT IS ALREADY HAPPENING, just not here yet.

There are some problems, though.

The antipersonnel shock troops were supposed to be trained in the suburbs of Bagdhad: problem is, the same ol' PTSD showed up. Honest soldiers DO NOT intrinsically WANT to waste civvie women and children. The Bushites thought they had an "SS" to draw on....

WRONG.

THIS revolution WILL be televised LIVE AND IN PERSON. PRAY that it is, because THAT is what will keep it political and stop it from becomming UTTER CHAOS.

[undergroundpanther]

67. Well

If you get your head out of the sand and realize fascism COULD happen here,you might see this as constructive not "fear-mongering" How much power do you have really? If a bank puts a 75 buck "hold" because you used a debit card can you demand your money be returned when YOU need it? No.
What if you don't want YOUR tax money going to killing Iraqis Can you refuse to fund the war? No.
What if you are arrested in the wrong place or you look like someone else,but you are innocent,Ask Padilla how free he is. Ask the people sent on rendition flights..
Does not matter what you think ,you pay of said authority figure intimidates you enough. We have very little freedom,America's corporate dictators have become so abusive,Look at black water pointing guns at people in Katrina,Where are the people that have been put in camps?..I don't know..DO YOU? I had a neighbor taken away,I dunno where HE went..or why he was taken away. Damn Right this shit bothers me..
http://www.unknownnews.org/05D31-J06d-1231Panther.html
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://judicial-inc.biz/kautrina_blackwater_2.htm&h=309&w=250&sz=24&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=T-nkfOnTGRNYVM:&tbnh=117&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBlackwater%2Bmercenaries%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=102251&ran=202519
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060828/scahill
we just THINK we are free,Buying products from assholes who could give a shit who it sickens is not freedom. Just because you are still looking at the curtains does not mean there is no wall..

The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.
-- Frank Zappa

[FighttheFuture]

108. So you are for being raped and keeping it quiet, hmmmm...

Otherwise, you might incite people who believe in society to actually do something about it!

[tomreedtoon]

115. And you have bought into the fear. SUCK-ERRRR!

Congratulations. You are now in the category of Sheep.

You are afraid of something that might not happen, that might happen but not in the way the paranoiacs around here describe, that might happen the way it's described but is far more managable than your sad little nightmares imagine.

You are in the meadow, along with all the Pink Tutu Democrats in Congress that let Bush have his way, and all the people who were panicked into giving Bush dictatorial powers. It's just that you've got another dictator running your life.

Ba-aa-aaah.

[Tyler Durden]

128. Careful.

Getting REAL CLOSE to being rude enough to qualify for the "Alert" category.

You may not agree with someone, but taking pot shots is rude and uncalled for.

Nobody called you a blind, delusional know-nothing without a historical sense of economics, combined with all of the friendly persuasion of Karl Rove.

KIDDING. But it would behove you to knock off with the diatribe. Rants: OK, Diatribe against other DUers: NOT OK.

[tomreedtoon]

137. Read the "make us all powerless" post above.

I will admit to becoming angry at this guy's post. It does nothing to encourage people to take steps to save the environment. It DOES make people feel hopeless about doing anything.

And what happens when people feel hopeless? They fall into the clutches of dictatorship. Bush did that with September 11. I refuse to fall into the same trap with supposedly progressive ecologists.

So, yeah, I did get angry. I'm still angry.

[FighttheFuture]

134. No, it's you who has bought into acquiescence of a sheep...

to be screwed and sheared by your "Shepards" and slaughtered when the time it right.

Whether people die or not is not really the point, as awful as that may seem to some. That fact is inevitable as long as there is unearned hierarchy, unjust repression, denial of a mans labor and "property rights" in the human social condition. The point is those in power must be made to fear for their own continued existence (just as all those who are not in power do) if their more predatory behavior is to be curbed. From there, better behaviors of Noblesse Oblige can form which preserves their own hides, in essence. Eventually, Democracy and social equalization will come into play and this sense of self-preservation by the rich and powerful can also transform into true generosity (e.g. Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, etc.) and a sense of connectedness and the humble realization "but for the grace of God go I". This has what has been occurring for the last 300 years around the world. Always, it is resisted by greedy over-controlling little sucks, as we now have in the form of Repthuglicans, Bus$hitCo, Corporate sellout Dems and way too BIG "business".

It is a story as old as humanity, and more recently played out in tales such as Robin Hood or this year's "V for Vendetta"! It is shown throughout our history: When the Nobles stood against an absolute King John at Runnymede and made him give up a portion of his power with the signing of the Magna Carta in exchange for his life and the continued existence of the Kingdom. When Colonists without representation rebelled against another King George and a overreaching government controlling corporation known as the British East India Company. When FDR took a stand to curb Capitalism's barbaric society destroying excesses in order to save itself from a growing Socialist movement within the United States. When LBJ signed the Great society programs into law, to help the poor, and as some suspected (or at least to garner support), to raise their living standard to prevent more race/class riots. Examples abound, for sure. Hell, even WWII can be cast as a struggle against the individual destroying Fascism of Mussolini and the Cultish neo-christianity/paganism of Hitler's Nazi Germany.

Now, how the current polarization and raping of our society, and the world, in the guise of "free Markets" and Globalization will play out will be anyone's guess. However, people do not tolerate loss of life, liberty or what they have built while others keep on gaining for long. South America is boiling, the mid-east is on Fire, China is rising and Russia is becoming more militant, North Korea is becomming more unstable and world-wide Religious wars are coming back. Much of this, though not all, is Bu$hitCo''s fault and their uber-wealthy, myopically greedy, backers.
At the very least, they have greatly exacerbated current problems and createfd many new ones.

Make no mistake, IT WILL BE PLAYED OUT. HEADS WILL ROLL. SHIT WILL HIT THE FAN.

Suck on that, sucker.

[tomreedtoon]

136. Thanks for making all of us powerless.

Your rant - and I can identify a rant by the long paragraphs and run-on sentences - is doing nothing to help people solve ecological problems. All it does is make people feel MORE hopeless.

And I'm sure you want heads to roll - the heads of people who refuse to bow down before the Great God Apocalypse.

I refuse to give up on taking sensible and sane steps to help the environment. And I will not be a victim of terrorism, from any side of the political spectrum. I still have hope for everything, except a hope for childish vengeance against someone who disagrees with me.

[FighttheFuture]

139. You make yourself powerless with your pollyannish beliefs, not I.

I am not talking vengeance. I am only pointing our where the path is going. Ignore this with your labeling me "terrorist" or accusing me of making people powerless or conjuring your strawman "Great God Apocalypse" at your own peril. Knowledge is power, actions have consequences, it is that simple. Understanding what is coming, and why it is happening once again, may make possible a better and more lasting solution benefiting all of society; or whatever is still left. If people understand this, and really do not want it, then it can change. All you are showing is an acute lack of vision which will insure the outcome you do not want.

So, I cannot countenance your nothing to see here, lets keep working with hope like some hamster in wheel going nowhere. That pollyannish approach simply does not work. It's akin to an amoeba avoiding unpleasant stimuli while flowing in a larger stream with no control. All it does is make you ripe for these divide and conquer criminals and the intrinsic social ills inherit in exploitive globalism.

Hey, maybe you will be right, but it hasn't really worked to well so far without radical solutions resetting the playing field. Understand this radicalism and you may be able to make a better choice. Reject or ignore it, or try your business as usual approach, and it will eat you alive. FDR understood this and navigated a brilliant solution for this country at that time. We have no FDR's today, and people like you are so desperate to preserve their illusions that they cannot acknowledge what is coming to take a stand. So we are all on this path.

Oh, BTW, if your judgment of rants (which you obviously ignore) is "long paragraphs and run-on sentences" then you are simply clueless. I do not wish to write to your apparent 3rd grade reading level, of short paragraphs, simple sentences and monosyllables so it will be your loss. If you can make the effort, then try reading what I wrote and respond to that, you may even learn something. Otherwise, you are still a sucker leading like sheeple to their inevitable slaughter.

Finally, just where the hell did this come from -- "I refuse to give up on taking sensible and sane steps to help the environment."? That's all nice and dandy, but, its not what we were discussing here. Talk about missing the forest for one of trees! I will say again, lack of vision!

[lgn19087]

64. I, for one, would be a proud member of the revolution

It's long past time that we embark on a campaign to cleanse the fascists from power in this country. Better yet, why stop there. Why not cleanse them from all over the world. The freedom and peace loving peoples of the world can unite together with one voice and say no to oppression, no to hate, no to injustice, no to rasicsm, and no to the fascists that run our planet. With one swift motion, this entire nightmare that is our world today can be over.

Are all of you with me?

[Tyler Durden]

66. Dictatorships HAVE been overthrown...recently, too.

We have lost the country, and there may be no way to get it back. We simply may have to try and make the new order better than the old.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

68. "This isn't "Chicken Little" stuff here"..... .......Ummm, Yes It Is

I'll tell ya what, if a few months goes by and this hypothesis is shown to be absolutely absurd and alarmist, would you mind if I and a bunch of other DU'ers post a bunch of mocking threads titled "Hey, I thought the economic Apocalypse was supposed to happen this week?" like the ones we see mocking the fundies today? After all, I kind of rank them in the same kinda category. :rofl:

[Tyler Durden]

74. SURE it might not be a full blown revolution...

Sure hope not anyway.

But I'll tell you something...there's a major recession on the horizon. So what if I'm off by a few months, or Dog Willing, a few Years? It still will happen. You know why?

IT ALWAYS DOES.

The loud "rhyme" of history bears me out in this. It's only a matter of time. It was only a matter of time when things were GREAT. It's only closer now.

When you're an old fart like me, and you remember Vietnam and the gas crisis and the Depression of 1977, things like this are no longer fantasy.

[sendero]

76. I think that's fair...

... as long as you don't mind it if we say "I told you so". Because a severe and protracted economic downturn is coming, the only question is how far off it is.

And a few years is the absolute longest away it could be.

As for the "armed revolution" part - well I doubt that will happen. But you know what, it is not totally out of the realm of possibility. If things get so bad that people aren't eating, they are not going to starve in the streets without a fight, I can tell you that.

[Tyler Durden]

77. And Dog Help EVERYONE.

Panic rooms won't save the rich. 1917 all over again minus Bolsheviks.

[undergroundpanther]

81. I ask CAT to help us too *smirk*

May the canine and feline beneficence rain down upon the drought stricken areas in America!

[OG Yankee Patriot]

87. Alarmists, Doomsayers, ChickenLittle People

and we wonder why we lose elections?
your prognostications are as fantastic as they are ridiculous.
arm yourself if you must, but you might want to consider participating in the economy rather than badmouthing it.
to paraphrase mark twain, people are just about as succesful as they allow themselves to be.
it isn't 1929 or even 1977 anymore, there's no crash in sight, for crying out loud.
focus on what's important - GETTING DEMOCRATS ELECTED!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. Hey Genius, Next Time Think You Could Manage To Respond To The Right Post?

:rofl:

[Tyler Durden]

113. See his post #101: BY GOD, HE IS A GENIUS!!!!!!

Lots of Law and business from every right wing outfit on the block.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

131. LOL Damn, I Missed It All. Almost Kinda Makes Me Want To Defend Your OP

now... ...well, not totally, but almost. :)

[Tyler Durden]

89. Welcome to DU....

...And go take at least one course in world economic history.

What...did you think this country was going to last as it is FOREVER?

And as for PARTICIPATING in the economy, I've been working full time, most of it in manufacturing, since 1971. I'd call that participation.

And how long have YOU been participating?

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tyler Durden]

111. Nasty and demeaning comments are what "Alert" is for.

By the way, Bobby Kennedy was dead during Nixon's first term.

My "attack" was neither an attack nor personal, as were yours.

With your enormous curriculum vitae, I am certain you have World shaping to do. Enjoy your troll while it lasts. Was any of your education in POLITICS or HISTORY, as mine was? I see a lot of business and law in there; Business having been the downfall of most empires, you might want to examine as to whether you have a vested interest in the problem.

I will take your claims at face value, though. Nice EXPENSIVE education credentials.

[Tyler Durden]

116. WOW. THAT was FAST.

Not that I'm not big enough to ignore someone who thinks they worked for Bobby Kennedy after his death in 1967...

I mean, I can warp reality in MY head with the best of them, too!

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tyler Durden]

119. Right smack in the MIDDLE of the first Nixon Administration.

You sir, are rude.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Batgirl]

120. You appear not to know how a discussion board works, genius.

Your posts were not deleted by the person you insulted. They were deleted by the moderators of this discussion board because you were in violation of the rules.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Batgirl]

123. Baby please don't go!

I would be interested in hearing more details about your theory that "most people are as successful as they want to be."
How can I, with the power of my mind, rise above the global economic forces that are causing the middle class to lose its grip?

[Tyler Durden]

125. Sounds like Right Wing "Gospel of Prosperity" to me...

You know, made popular by such folks as Jim "Send me all your money so Jesus will give you more!" Bakker.

[Batgirl]

126. I thought so too,

But perhaps living in Flint I've become overly negative. Maybe living 3 blocks from Delphi East and seeing the huge empty employee parking lots has caused my world view to become hopelessly distorted. It's possible that working 2 jobs for a 25% income reduction has made me too tired to think straight. Maybe this guy's got the answer...maybe the miracle is just one pair of ruby slippers away!

[Tyler Durden]

127. I'm just down the freeway from Flint.

I'm in Owosso, The State's Prettiest Ghost Town.

Seriously, I really like it there, but they've got about one factory left open.

I drove down to Louisville KY on business, passing through the heart of Red Ohio. Those people must be seriously delusional. I must have passed at least 10 CLOSED AND SHUTTERED major factories, including a Lear and a Delphi plant.

Can you say, "...on the edge of an economic grave, one foot on a banana peel, one on a gallon of spilled grease..."???

That guy has got to be one of the well-heeled and blind to think that all we have to do is "...participate in the economy..."

Sheesh.

[Batgirl]

129. Anyone who lives in Owosso

is an honorary Flintoid for sure.

[Tyler Durden]

141. Flint, Owosso, NEAT old cities...

They'll make OUTSTANDING ruins. Damned shame.

[Batgirl]

142. yes, a really damned shame

But hey, at least we still have Angelo's.

[Tyler Durden]

124. Then please go away.

You are a rude person. I don't know why you think you fit in here. Personally, I'm thinking "troll."

[Bluebear]

112. 'you recognize the inherent weakness of your hypothesis.'

Fancy schmancy.

[Batgirl]

105. I doubt that you are paraphrasing Mark Twain

with the phrase "people are just about as succesful as they allow themselves to be."
Dr. Phil, maybe.

[mucho macho]

69. A question from a curious consumer

Why arent the Japanese having the same problems? Why do we accept neighbors who drive Toyotas and Hondas? Just curious

[Tyler Durden]

75. This is purely economics.

Who buys the most cars?

We do.

So if a market that has, say, a 15% profit margin (enormous in a manufacturing environment by the way. They make money on VOLUME.) takes a 30% dump because NOBODY in UNCLE SUGAR LAND can buy a new car....

CRASH. EVERYWHERE.

[sendero]

78. It's clear to me..

... that a lot of folks don't understand the leveraging power of a few percentage point of decline in sales.

It's much worse than it sounds, because once enough of it happens it starts feeding on itself.

Oh well, I hope for a mild recession. That is the absolute BEST outcome possible, a mild but long (think Japan in the 90s) recession.

[undergroundpanther]

82. I hope it's not

a financial "cannibalizing" situation.Like you see when Capitalism breaks down into it's final decay.

[MetaTrope]

79. My Michigan relatives keep sending me an email petition...

begging President Bush to "reinstate the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools." :eyes:

[undergroundpanther]

83. Our country is half psycho

Is all I can say blinded by"faith" in the Fantasy based community.
When they can't buy food they'll wake up.

[bleedingheart]

85. and yet DeVos who outsourced jobs may become your next Gov

truly amazing ain't it...?

I lived through the Great Steel Outsourcing of the 70's in Pittsburgh...I feel your pain.

[Tyler Durden]

91. I don't think we're going to make it through this one.

If I meet one more idiot who tells me that the country will do just fine without the domestic auto industry, I'm going to puke on their shoes.

I may not LIKE the auto industry, even though I work in it, but if it crashes, being the largest user of steel, glass, rubber, copper, and a dozen other commodities, then the economic system is well and truly fucked.

This isn't a PREDICTION, it's macroeconomics. I don't WANT this to happen, but that won't stop it from happening. EVENTUALLY.

[Peeves]

102. Aw, cheer up & buy a Honda or Suzuki ...

[FighttheFuture]

107. I believe the rich and powerful think they can ride this out because...

they have a corrupt media to keep on doping the sheeple; a well established corporate infrastructure designed to extract all wealth while selling the Horatio alger myth; a medical system that keeps people as hostages, or dead, and a hardened Army and National Guard of killers, and private firms like Blackwell Security, for "home defense"; and very good experience in disenfranchising the poor and middle class votes while also locking the poor away by any means necessary.

After all, have you heard anything about the relocated Katrina poor?

Fair's Katrina's Vanishing victims asks this.

Then there's Katrina victims 'not allowed' to talk to media, which FEMA responded to FEMA Responds on Press Access to Trailer Parks but reversed the policy under pressure from FAIR in FEMA Reverses Media Access Policy so we shall see. Excuse me if I do not hold my breath for Bu$hitCo's promises; which always seem to be lies.


So yeah, I think they feel they can ride out the coming disaster. Of course, watch the shock on their faces as their heads roll on down the street!

[FighttheFuture]

109. Hmmm... what did the Founding Fathers say about this...

Oh yeah...

Declaration of Independece

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.Text

[mkb]

130. Think Twice About Catastrophes

     In the late eighties I read a book by Ravi Batra called
"The Great Depression of 1990".  I can testify that
metaphorically he might have been correct, but in actuality,
not.  The predictions, if read in the normal way, stated that
there would be another long depression with catastrophic
consequences.  At the time, I thought it was argued well.  So
did many others, because it made it onto the N.Y. Times
bestseller list.
     Sometime before 1990 I realized, even though I might have
been in a depressiion, that the most accurate forecast did not
include a classic style depression.
     We cannot be certain about things, but we must learn and
think as clearly as possible.  This was one example of how my
thinking progressed from agreement with the author to
intuitively taking an opposing position, which I then stated
on talk radio.
     My general belief stems from the consequences that would
befall those who have the good life if a large scale economic
catastrophe were to hit.  Then everything that is not being
discussed now, including Communism, with all its negatives,
would reappear in mass consciousness.
     What I did say on the radio, and I still tend to believe,
is that we are being steadily lowered into economic and social
decay.  There is research I've done regarding purchasing power
relative to the relative wage that would support this thesis. 
Some of it I wrote on Stan Goff's website a few months ago.
     So, I don't pretend to have a crystal ball, but state
that predictions of disaster can cause you to become
frightened and lose sight of your fundamental direction in
life.  Those with power probably don't wan't their lives
ruined by change, so keep that in mind to help you avoid too
much stress and distraction.

[bulletsandspikes]

133. I've been waiting for this talk to happen.

We need to arm and prepare. It could happen tomorrow or a week from now or not at all but we need to be ready.

[Bluebear]

143. kick