"America, America, God shed His grace on thee...what a ridiculous song

[Philosoraptor]

I just hit me how hollow this song is now,
a song I used to love to hear sung by Ray Charles,
But now that I actually looked up the lyrics
they seem ridiculous, especially in regard
to America's true history, and most recent
history, and today's news from Iraq.

I almost hate to hear it now.

-----------

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern impassioned stress
A thoroughfare of freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

O beautiful for heroes proved
In liberating strife.
Who more than self their country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for halcyon skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the enameled plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till souls wax fair as earth and air
And music-hearted sea!

O beautiful for pilgrims feet,
Whose stem impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till paths be wrought through
wilds of thought
By pilgrim foot and knee!

O beautiful for glory-tale
Of liberating strife
When once and twice,
for man's avail
Men lavished precious life!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till selfish gain no longer stain
The banner of the free!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till nobler men keep once again
Thy whiter jubilee!

[knowbody0]

1. the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air

oh yeah, ameriKa! we're number 1!

[jerry611]

8. That has to do with the war of 1812

Francis Scott Key wrote the poem that we now use as the national anthem while the british were attacking Fort McHenry in the war of 1812. The rockets red glare and bombs bursting in air were from the British, not us. And even with this attack, the flag was still there. That is what the national anthem means! That our flag cannot be brought down.

At least learn some history before bashing your own country.

In that war, we were being invaded by the Brits, and they attempted to burn Washington DC to the ground.

[knowbody0]

12. so two hundred years later

we should still be bragging about our rocket's red glare? i love bits and pieces of our brave history of independence, but am horribly ashamed of too much of what our glorious bombs have done. i am not bashing my country, just praying for its enlightenment.

[jerry611]

16. What do you think we do on the 4th of July?

The signing of the declaration of independance was an act of revolt and treason against the British crown. And we celebrate it every single year with fireworks. We love rubbing it in!

Are you suggesting we shouldnt celebrate it anymore becuase it happened over 200 years ago?

[knowbody0]

18. i've spent too much time with vietnam vets

who are ill affected by the sounds and sights of the fourth...i do not condemn the celebration knowing it is tradition and national pride, but im always glad when it's over. it is very personal for me, having lost a husband and a brother to Vietnam. also my grandfather who fought in WWI would sit with his whiskey crying cause of the bombs etc on the fourth. all in all, just a bad buzz for me.

[Radio_Lady]

70. Knowbody0, I am so sorry for your losses. It must be a very bittersweet

holiday for you and your family.

The holiday is also muted for me, but I have no personal losses, just the general feeling that our country has spun out of control under this administration.

I'm going to march in a small neighborhood parade with my children and grandchildren, and pray that things get better for this beloved country of ours.

Thank you for posting.

[knowbody0]

85. you rock RadioLady

i always look forward to your posts. Happy fourth, to you and all of yours.

p.s. loved the pearl story.

[Radio_Lady]

144. Knowbody0, I'm a day late seeing this, but thank you belatedly.

[bigtree]

23. What you describe leaves quite a bit in between to choose from

to 'celebrate', or not.

I'll bet you couldn't find two identical views of what the fourth means to folks in any room. It's seen by most as a celebration of our nation's beginnings; some focus on the freedom aspect, but, most always, without any 'rubbing it in' to the British; many want to wrap the present wars and military actions and occupations up in the whole cloth of the day and its observance.

I take it for the heart of what it is. I see it as an observance of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. It did have all of the intent you describe, but its influence has naturally evolved over time. The way we apply the document has also undergone quite a few changes, giving folks plenty of diverse interests that they can use the document to defend, rebuke, or refute whatever cause or issue they want to represent or further.

I think it's entirely appropriate to hold the historical aspects of the document in abeyance while demanding redress by the priciples the document bestows on America. We'll always use the principles expressed there to influence the direction of our democracy. There will always be conflicts within the framework we set with our deliberations and debate, and with our legislative actions and advocacy.

[Dorian Gray]

124. Hey, the Brits rub in other treasonous

acts against their government with fireworks. Guy Fawkes Day, anyone?

Seriously, though.... I love the song America the Beautiful. I don't have a problem with it at all. I also have no problem with being proud of the good in our country while trying to battle the bad. It's what one should do. We have to be aware of the negative and not sweep it under the carpet, thogh.

[Bassic]

128. Yep. Let's celebrate the birth of a country

by blowing shit up.

[Redstone]

140. Did you sleep through English class? Ever hear of a spell-checker?

Redstone

[rockymountaindem]

71. The "rockets" in the Star Spangled Banner are British ones

fired from the blockade ships in Chesapeake bay. The reference to them is a tribute to the defenders of Fort McHenry and their ability to withstand the British barrage.

[jerry611]

88. That is what I have been trying to say!!!!!!!!

And apparently people in here think they are OUR rockets and bombs and we are killing people...

It's a damn shame they don't teach history in school anymore.

[RagingInMiami]

113. The only reason I know that story is because I saw it

on some Saturday morning educational cartoon when I was a kid. I don't remember learning that in school.

[Name removed]

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[knowbody0]

102. you called me a stupid person

i've never been called a stupid person

[jbnow]

36. Ah yes, the glorious history

of the star spangled banner. People complain it honors war and people complain it is hard to sing.

True, but let us remember it is no random tune. It is the tune of an old British pub song, To Anacreon In Heaven.
Easy to confirm. Here is a google search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=history+The+Star+Spangled+Banner%2C+%22To+Anacreon+in+Heaven%22&btnG=Search

Anacreon was a Greek poet known for his songs praising debauchery and wine and this song honors Bacchus, the Roman god of wine and intoxication.

Here is a sample of the lyrics
http://ingeb.org/songs/toanacre.html

To Anacreon in Heav'n,
Where he sat in full glee,
A few Sons of Harmony
Sent a petition
That he their Inspirer
And Patron would be;
When this answer arrived
From the Jolly Old Grecian:
"Voice, Fiddle, and Flute,
No longer be mute,
I'll lend you my name
And inspire you to boot,

Chorus:
And besides I'll instruct you,
Like me, to intwine
The Myrtle of Venus
With Bacchus's Vine."

If we can't glorify war, pagan gods, debauchery and drunkenness what kind of country are we?

[rasputin1952]

96. They did burn a good portion of DC to the ground. During the fiasco,

a tremendous T'Storm came up out of nowhere, and a tornado set down in central DC. The rain aided in containing the fires, and the mud produced slowed the British to a crawl. Just as suddenly as it rose, tyhe storm passed.

Many at the time, thought it was Providence that saved the day,

[Poppyseedman]

2. America's true history

Do you even know it???

America with all it's warts and blighted history is still the greatest nation on the face of the earth.

What other nation has opened it's arms to literally 100's of million of people over the years, given them freedom and hope beyond their wildest dreams

Fought a horrific civil war between brothers and families to remove the stain of slavery from it's borders. Slavery still exists today in this world, but not here.

Transferred political power peaceable between parties without bloodshed for more than 225 years.

Fought and set free millions of people from tyranny all over the globe.

Yes, we may have problems that seem large and unsurmountable today, but compared to what our forbears did and accomplished, we have no reason to hang our head in shame.

We as a people can and will fix our problems

You may bash this great country, but I will not. I will defend it's liberty and freedom.

[Philosoraptor]

3. Tell it to the Navajos and Iraqis.

I know a lot about our history, and this song doesn't cover it very well.

[Poppyseedman]

7. You did notice I never said "perfect"

If you are a student of history, you know the government legacy of the treatment of the native Indian population is deplorable and filled with broken promises. "The only promise the white man keep was to take our land"

That withstanding, we still are a great nation.

[leftchick]

4. liberty and freedom?

past tense is more like it. Have at your RW&B barbecue. I will hang my flag upside down thank you very much.

[Poppyseedman]

11. RW&B barbecue ???

What is that?

You can still love your country and hang your flag upside down? No?

[leftchick]

14. I did not say I loved my country

wtf is there to love about it? It is in DISTRESS, big time!

[Name removed]

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[bigtree]

25. who says she isn't fighting?

cast all the discontented Americans out and you'll be able to enjoy yourself a fine fascism.

[leftchick]

123. shhhhh!

I think that is what the pman is asking for. heil bush!

[Name removed]

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[jerry611]

29. A "fine American" that doesn't love her country? Hmmm

I didn't say it, she did. She said, "I never said I loved my country."

Am I supposed to interpret that as being patriotic?

[Toucano]

32. Plenty of fine Americans hate America.

And the BEST Americans are brave enough to say so.

[zippee]

44. That is...

...the worst, ugliest thing I've ever heard. How utterly disgusting!

[Name removed]

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[Toucano]

50. Your praise is much too high. n/t

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[me b zola]

134. Six years after the coup de tat,

Six years of republicans destroying the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the rule of law. Six years of all of republican open, vile contempt for any patriot who speaks up against the hand of tyranny....

...and you found that poster's words to be the worst, ugliest thing that you have ever heard?

[jerry611]

53. We obviously disagree here

According to Websters Dictionary, a Patriot is: "One who loves, supports, and defends one's country."

But appartly you have warped this defition to mean that a patriot is someone who hates and criticizes their country's government.
That my friend, is the first rule of propaganda. You twist the defition of words and you tell a lie often enough that it eventually becomes a truth.

If you hate America, you are brave, yes. Because you are an extreme minority. I don't know a single democrat or liberal in real life that thinks like you. And believe me I know a lot of liberals and democrats because I do a lot of volunteering for numerous campaings in my area. I never met one like you who has so much hatred for this country. We all may disagree with the government sometimes, but that doesn't change our love for this country.

You can have your opinions. That's fine. But don't expect me to agree with them.

[Toucano]

68. Thanks for the definition, but I never used the word patriot.

Is that, my friend, the second rule of propoganda? Form your argument based on a misrepresentation of the oppositions view? If you equate "fine" with "patriotic" that's your issue.

I said plenty of fine Americans hate America. And the best Americans are the ones who are brave enough to say so.

It's the only way things change. "Patriotism" is denial of the truth that lulls you into complacency. So you then will accept things like being lied to, neglected, and murdered. You'll say, "I still love my country" while you send billions of dollars to buy bullets and bombs and pay your hessians to rape and murder children.

You and your America-loving liberal friends are the problem. You have delusions of democracy.

[hfojvt]

118. hating and criticizing the government is one thing

criticizing the country is another
and hating the country is another still.

To hate something is to wish it ill, isn't it? So people who hate this country would want Republicans in office, since that would be bad for the country.

So, I have to agree, that hating this country is not a good or noble thing.

I do not really hate Bush in the sense that I want to see him suffer. It is far more important to undo or repair the damage that his policies have wrought than it is to make him suffer.

How many on DU are espousing the idea of retribution against Republicans? "The ideology of retribution reinforces the practice of spending billions of dollars on chasing, prosecuting and imprisoning offenders, while a mere pittance is spent on seeking to care for those who have suffered loss. Rather than seeking to diminish the suffering of the victim, retribution seeks to increase the suffering of the offender." "The Fall of the Prison" p. 67

[uppityperson]

141. Is it unpatriotic to criticize your government?

Seems that this is what you are saying. Wanting to change your country back to being a decent place, to stop those that are taking away freedoms, spying on us, using us up seems very patriotic and very much loving your country.

[OzarkDem]

77. Its not bravery

I'm not sure what it is, but anyone who is ready to trash the US just because of the Bush administration is badly informed or just grandstanding.

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't a good way to get respect for your opinions.

[Toucano]

135. It's a dead and rotting baby. Throw it out with the bath water.

I am not trashing the U.S. just because of the Bush Administration.

I'm trashing the U.S. because of the REAL problem: the American people.

[Name removed]

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[Binka]

112. The Benefits? WTF Are You Talking About?

The benefit of paying exorbitant taxes for crumbling infrastructure, crappy schools, no health care, AND A MOTHERFUCKING MILITARY STATE? So I repeat what fucking benefits? I think you you better think twice about telling a long time and much beloved DUer to leave.

[Name removed]

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[Binka]

116. You Are A Bit Slow Dude

I left the USA in 2002 and have not been back.... oh except to visit my son a US Marine seriously wounded in Ramadi. Please don't waste time writing back to me as you are on ignore. Enjoy your stay on DU.

[Name removed]

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[EminenceFront]

127. What a statement!

"Plenty of fine Americans hate America."

These are the types of things our Democratic candidates need to be saying on the campaign trail. It's our only hope.

[Quantess]

139. I know....I wish those people wouldn't say that.

Get it right: We LOVE America. We HATE the * Administration. The B*sh Administration HATES America. We LOVE America.:spank:

Seriously, folks. Stop saying that crap, please. It's bad for ones' image.

[Toucano]

145. Who are "those people"? and who is "we"?

What's bad for ones' image, in this case yours, is the fact that you're not listening. Please paddle yourself.

PLENTY OF FINE AMERICANS HATE AMERICA is not the same thing as PLENTY OF FINE AMERICANS HATE BUSH.

The United States has problems that go far deeper and Bush and if you would listen, people are telling you they HATE AMERICA, not just Bush.

Can you hear that? Can it penetrate your mind? Now you can deal with it instead of "correcting" it to suit your ears.

[Quantess]

147. Yes, fine. All I'm saying is,

I don't think it's wise for Democrats to be seen as the party that "hates America". It's not a winning slogan. Just sayin'.

[Toucano]

148. This is a discussion forum, not a campaign strategy forum.

I'm not responsible for developing a "winning slogan". I'm responsible for expressing the truth as I see it.

My loyalty is to the truth, not the the Democratic Party.

[Toucano]

146. I'll let them have it gratis. n/t

[Brian Stevens]

130. Saying and doing..

are 2 different things

[bigtree]

34. who elected you interpreter of what's patriotic??

If you think your judgement of someone determines the level of their patriotism you betray the very principles of our democracy.

Besides, patriotism is the last refuge of a . . . never mind.

[Pastiche423]

64. Please tell me why being "patriotic"

in today's America is a good thing. In today's America we can be proud of...

Two pre-emptive wars (wars of CHOICE), the murder of over a hundred thousand Afghan and Iraqi citizens that did nothing to harm not even one American citizen, the rape and murder of an Iraqi child, rigged elections, American jobs outsourced, funds gutted from services to the poor, elderly and disabled, millions of American citizens that do not have health care, corruption in the highest offices of our land, a pResident that is above the law, energy companies usurping state rights for profit and our Constitution shat upon?

This is not the America our forefathers envisioned.


IMHO, nationalism is a mental illness.

[jerry611]

87. Afghan war is justified and legal

You can make the case for Iraq that it was illegal. But the United Nations and NATO both signed off on Afghanistan. The Taliban were sponsoring and hosting a terrorist organization that was responsible for the attack of September 11th. The Taliban refused to hand those terrorists over, and we gave them the oppertunity to hand them over (nearly 30 days), and they refused. The UN said the war was legal, NATO says the war was leagal. Therefore in my opinion, we can bomb the shit out of them.

UN charter states that every nation has a right to self-defense. And NATO has a provision where "an attack on one is an attack on all."

Iraq though is a different story entirely...

[Pastiche423]

89. Not one shred of evidence

has been produced that proves Afghanistan had anything to do w/the 9/11 attacks.

A day or two after the attacks, Colin Powell promised us a White Paper for the world to see who the perps were.

It was never produced.

Our FBI does not have OBL on its most wanted list for the 9/11 attacks, because they have no proof.

Just as the Iraq invasion was based on lies, so was the invasion of Afghanistan.

[Bassic]

129. Ironic though, that we all had to go to war to defeat

the very people that the U.S. helped put in place.

[uppityperson]

142. When did Afghanistan attack the USA?

Saudis did, taking for a moment that those hijackers were as who were supposed to be, but Afghanistan?

[leftchick]

122. thanks Lib!

blind nationalism is a dangerous thing isn't it?

[bigtree]

28. what the fuck do you know about what type of American she is?

what do we know about what type of American YOU are?

That type of language was used all throughout the protests and dissents of my generation to divide. Like or leave it? Channeling Agnew?

[jerry611]

33. I want her to leave so she will understand

If you consider America to be a shithole, then you obviously havn't seen much of the world outside our borders.

I've met immigrants from Mexico, eastern Europe, Russia, southeast Asia, the mid-east, all over the place. And they have horror stories that would haunt your dreams for the rest of your life. They were all in absolute poverty. And many of them witnessed atrocities.

And I want everyone to be happy. Being miserable all the time is very bad for your health. If you truely think you will be happier elsewhere, no one is going to stop you from leaving. Our stupid government favors open borders anyway. So they won't stop you.

[bigtree]

35. I want her to stay so that she can continue to fight for her own

understanding.

[Swamp Rat]

41. Whoa! Have YOU ever been to any of those places?

Have YOU ever lived outside the USA? From what I can tell, from reading your posts, I think not.



"The concept of propaganda has undergone a fundamental transformation, particularly as the result of political practice in Germany. Throughout the world today, people are beginning to see that a modern state, whether democratic or authoritarian, cannot withstand the subterranean forces of anarchy and chaos without propaganda. It is not only a matter of doing the right thing; the people must understand that the right thing is the right thing. Propaganda includes everything that helps the people to realize this.

Political propaganda in principle is active and revolutionary. It is aimed at the broad masses. It speaks the language of the people because it wants to be understood by the people. Its task is the highest creative art of putting sometimes complicated events and facts in a way simple enough to be understood by the man on the street. Its foundation is that there is nothing the people cannot understand, but rather things must be put in a way that they can understand. It is a question of making it clear to him by using the proper approach, evidence, and language.

Propaganda is a means to an end. Its purpose is to lead the people to an understanding that will allow them to willingly and without internal resistance devote themselves to the tasks and goals of a superior leadership. If propaganda is to succeed, it must know what it wants. It must keep a clear and firm goal in mind, and seek the appropriate means and methods to reach that goal. Propaganda as such is neither good nor evil. Its moral value is determined by the goals it seeks.

Propaganda must be creative. It is by no means a matter for the bureaucracy or official administration, but rather it is a matter of productive fantasy. The genuine propagandist must be a true artist. He must be a master of the popular soul, using it as an instrument to express the majesty of a genuine and unified political will. Propaganda can be pro or con. In neither case does it have to be negative. The only thing that is important is whether or not its words are true and genuine expressions of a people’s values. During its period of opposition, the National Socialist movement proved that criticism can be constructive, indeed, that in a time which the government is in the hands of destructive powers it may be the only constructive element."

- Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Der Kongress zur Nürnberg 1934 (Munich: Zentralverlag der NSDAP., Frz. Eher Nachf., 1934), pp. 130-141. Speech given at Nuremberg Rally - 1934.

[jerry611]

47. Actually yes... but I didn't include it because it is irrelevant

I went to many places around the world. But I didn't live half my life in any of them. I didn't grow up in any of them. The immigrants did.

I worked with a man that was the mid-east. He was from Lebanon I think it was. And he said he grew up listening to gunshots and bombs going off every single day. I know a guy from Vietnam that described atrocities he personally witnessed when he was a child. Images he said that are burned in his mind.

I've met people from the former soviet republics that talked about the horrors of communism.

I never lived under such tyranny. I never lived under communism. So I am sorry but I cannot say what it is like to live under such conditions. All I can go by is what these people tell me today. And apparently you are trying to tell me that they are all lying. That it is all propaganda and that I am supposed to believe the world outside our borders are fields of daisies while America is in decay.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

[Swamp Rat]

51. I've lived on 4 continents so I don't believe your propaganda for a second

Good luck spreading it to all the 'Good Amerikkans'.

I will fight the Nazis HERE so we don't have to fight them there.

[Toucano]

54. You don't have to go "outside our borders" to hear stories

that would "haunt your dreams".

Open your fucking eyes.

[leftchick]

125. no kidding!

damn! Sometimes I wonder if it would be better to sit back and drink a bottle of RW&B kool-aide and wave my flag and get tears in my eyes hearing the SSB.

Nope, can't do it! :rofl:

[banana republican]

37. HEY IT IS MY COUNTRY. DO NOT EVER TELL ME TO LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.

CAPS ARE INTENTIONAL.

IF I COULD YELL ANY LOUDER I WOULD.

[Name removed]

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[KitchenWitch]

110. Point of clarification

How do you know if the poster of post 19's opinion is earnest and thoughtful?

I am sick to death, as a liberal and a Democrat, of being told that I am not patriotic, and that if I do not like things here, to leave. I prefer to fight and work for change.

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[Clark2008]

132. Why don't you love your country?

I hate the politicians who are ruining it, the media who are spouting propaganda and the uniformed (because of the media) sheeple who are perpetuating these traits, but the country - well I love the country and what it's founding principles mean.

I'm sorry you hate it so much. That's sad.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Huh.

Sounds like he/she was bashing a pretty goofy song, not the country.

But a few other things...

"Fought a horrific war between brothers and families to remove the stain of slavery from it's borders"

and

"Transferred political power peaceable between parties without bloodshed for more than 225 years. "

Whuah?

"What other nation has opened it's arms to literally 100's of million of people over the years, given them freedom and hope beyond their wildest dreams"

Well sure, as long as they didn't ask for basic human dignity.

[Poppyseedman]

10. Compared to a large portion of the rest of the world

the basic human dignity we give people is beyond their comprehension

As for Whuah?

Ever hear of the Civil War fought to keep the union together and free the blacks from southern slavery? About 800,000 man lost their lives doing so.

What other country has transferred political power freely by election for 225 years?

[Endangered Specie]

39. freely by election by 225 years? ... answer: no one

I believe our absolute best number is from about 1865-2005, thats 140 years

Thats excluding the fact that women didnt have the vote till 1920, which would make 85 years
If you think 2000 was stolen, thats 80 years.
Gets even worse if you consider conditions in the southern states that restricted votes, you are down to about 40 years there.

[OzarkDem]

76. That's still better

than any other country. I refuse to bash the US just because Bush and the GOP have made a mockery of it.

[Solon]

86. I believe many other nations have had free elections longer than...

the US has in the past 40 years, hell even India has had them for THAT long.

[susanna]

99. I guess I'm confused.

Who is actually bashing it? I must have missed that.

[Endangered Specie]

101. Its not bashing, its just inconvienent truths....

to steal a phrase.

[susanna]

98. Very well done.

I always get a kick out of the "peaceful passage of power" canard when for most of that time a lot of folks weren't even allowed to vote (women, blacks come to mind).

[Endangered Specie]

100. not to mention the poor, non land owners, anyone who couldnt pay

the poll, or people who have to work all day on election day (wait, that one happens NOW!)

[Swamp Rat]

20. SEIG HEIL!

Bushler Loves You.

[bbinacan]

38. Very well said!

It seems many here are ready to give up. Bash Bash Bash. How about Improve Improve Improve. If they don't have the guts to campaign, volunteer, and vote for the candidates we need, then by all means get a ticket the hell out of here. BTW, I love "America" and Ray Charles does a masterful job with it.:patriot: :patriot:

[bigtree]

40. If you appreciated his history you'd know

he was singing it with a great deal of intentional irony. Do you really think America was so great for Ray as he struggled through his time?

[bbinacan]

57. Maybe some irony

but I do believe it was from his heart.

[bigtree]

69. right over your head

stretch bbinacan. stretch your thinking.

[Quantess]

138. Ray Charles needed some irony, especially with the last lines:

"Till nobler men keep once again
Thy whiter jubilee!"

The alabaster cities. A lot of references to white in that song.

[Swamp Rat]

42. Sehr gut!!!! Und Ich bin ein guter Amerikaner!!!!!!!

"The concept of propaganda has undergone a fundamental transformation, particularly as the result of political practice in Germany. Throughout the world today, people are beginning to see that a modern state, whether democratic or authoritarian, cannot withstand the subterranean forces of anarchy and chaos without propaganda. It is not only a matter of doing the right thing; the people must understand that the right thing is the right thing. Propaganda includes everything that helps the people to realize this.

Political propaganda in principle is active and revolutionary. It is aimed at the broad masses. It speaks the language of the people because it wants to be understood by the people. Its task is the highest creative art of putting sometimes complicated events and facts in a way simple enough to be understood by the man on the street. Its foundation is that there is nothing the people cannot understand, but rather things must be put in a way that they can understand. It is a question of making it clear to him by using the proper approach, evidence, and language.

Propaganda is a means to an end. Its purpose is to lead the people to an understanding that will allow them to willingly and without internal resistance devote themselves to the tasks and goals of a superior leadership. If propaganda is to succeed, it must know what it wants. It must keep a clear and firm goal in mind, and seek the appropriate means and methods to reach that goal. Propaganda as such is neither good nor evil. Its moral value is determined by the goals it seeks.

Propaganda must be creative. It is by no means a matter for the bureaucracy or official administration, but rather it is a matter of productive fantasy. The genuine propagandist must be a true artist. He must be a master of the popular soul, using it as an instrument to express the majesty of a genuine and unified political will. Propaganda can be pro or con. In neither case does it have to be negative. The only thing that is important is whether or not its words are true and genuine expressions of a people’s values. During its period of opposition, the National Socialist movement proved that criticism can be constructive, indeed, that in a time which the government is in the hands of destructive powers it may be the only constructive element."

- Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Der Kongress zur Nürnberg 1934 (Munich: Zentralverlag der NSDAP., Frz. Eher Nachf., 1934), pp. 130-141. Speech given at Nuremberg Rally - 1934.

[bbinacan]

45. So what is your

fucking point?

[Swamp Rat]

48. Sprecht du Deutsch Amerikaner!!!

Was machst Du da für Scheiße? Sie fassen sind Scheißdreck!

Geh' und krabbel in das stinkende Loch zurück, aus dem Du kommst.

[bbinacan]

52. I don't speak German and

I will ask again. What is your fucking point?

[Swamp Rat]

55. I fight Nazis

What's your fucking point?

[bbinacan]

56. Noble

I hope you're not insinuating I'm a nazi.

[Swamp Rat]

58. Whatever gave you that idea?

You're obviously too young, right?

Though, I do suggest you work on some German. It will come in handy while living in the Fourth Reich.

[bbinacan]

60. I'm 42

is that too young?

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bbinacan]

73. No ossification here.

Ich bien Martin.

[Swamp Rat]

78. Well, that flies in the face of decades of established linguistic theory.

Perhaps you can read Noam Chomsky's and George Lakoff's linguistic research, for starters. Personally, I am finding it more and more difficult to learn other languages as I get older, though, that has not stopped me. Once a person can speak, say 3 to 5 languages, it gets easier, but the human brain becomes 'hardwired' with age. :)

[tenshi816]

119. Ain't that the truth...

I took a college Spanish course this last academic year and found it far more difficult than when I studied it in high school, although I did pick it up better than the other students in my class because I must have had some residual memory of it from back then.

I find that my memory for foreign languages is much shorter than it used to be. With Spanish, for example, whenever I learn something new it'll be with me for a couple of days without even thinking about it, and then I have to force myself to remember it with each passing day. If I don't study, then a week later I'll be thinking "hmm, now what exactly did that mean again?" I also find that I get mentally exhausted translating in my head - it doesn't come easily to me anymore.

French I can't speak at all - my accent is appalling - but I can read what I call "skier's French" (signs relating to mountain conditions, road signs and restaurant menus!). That doesn't tire me as much as trying to converse.

Having said all, I'm still determined to carry on with Spanish. It's a beautiful language and it's also a wonderful feeling to have a conversation, however basic, in a language other than your own, don't you think?

Finally, back on topic, I love America but, as you know, left it. To the people complaining about those on DU who bash America, we bash because we care and it's our right under the Constitution to bash it if we want to. I think of it as tough love.

[Rainscents]

59. BWAHAHAHAHA...

I love ya,Swamp Rat!!! LOL

[Swamp Rat]

61. Just tryin' to WAKE PEOPLE UP!

:D :hi:

[kineneb]

136. genau

Ich bin doch keinen Nazi. Und Gross-gross Vater hat bis zum Ersten Weltkrieg Deutsch gesprochen. In Hochschule u. im Universitaet habe ich Deutsch gelernt.

Ich hasse auch alle Faschismus.

[OzarkDem]

75. Agree, America is the greatest country on earth

it has its flaws, its had its problems, but no country has give people greater freedom or power.

[tenshi816]

120. How is America freer than,

say, the UK or Australia? Or any number of countries with democratically elected governments? It drives me nuts when people say what you said and I'm not alone in this.

[karlrschneider]

80. The NSA will be very pleased with your assessment.

...

[Solon]

84. It would be nice if you got your facts right...

You contradicted yourself there at least once.

What other nation has opened it's arms to literally 100's of million of people over the years, given them freedom and hope beyond their wildest dreams.

As far as official immigration policy, yes it has been traditionally open door, to certain groups at certain time periods, and it usually took about 3 generations of oppression, but they eventually integrated, excepting African-Americans, who wer natural born, Latinos, who in many cases were both natural born and immigrant, and other groups like the Chinese, Japanese, etc.

Fought a horrific civil war between brothers and families to remove the stain of slavery from it's borders. Slavery still exists today in this world, but not here.

Transferred political power peaceable between parties without bloodshed for more than 225 years.

Put these two together for a reason, they are a contradiction, the best summation of the civil war is that it was a war fought because of an ELECTION, I wouldn't call that peacably transferring of power there, would you?

Fought and set free millions of people from tyranny all over the globe.

OK, the only example I can think of for this one is both WWI and WWII, both of which were wars that our nation had to be dragged into kicking and screaming. Before then we had the subverting of Hawaii's government, to take it over, the conquering of Cuba, Puerto Rico, Phillipines, etc. I don't call that freeing people from tyranny, unless its tyranny of the flesh.

Since the end of WWII, we have only involved ourselves in TWO conflicts that have actually had a POSITIVE civil rights effect on the people who lived there, the Korean War and Balkans. All other conflicts we involved ourselves in usually involved us being the aggressors, or declaring war based on false pretenses. This includes interventions in Nicaragua, Cambodia, Vietnam, Iraq(Twice), Afganistan(Twice), Panama, Iran, etc. In general we supported some of the worst civil and human rights violators in the 20th century, for economic reasons.

On balance, I would say we freed millions in WWII, and killed twice as many since then for economic reasons, that alone should give us pause about our "traditional" foriegn policy. Because of THAT foriegn policy, New York City is permanently scarred, and millions live in oppression today.

[bling bling]

94. "You will never know...

...how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it.”

- John Adams, to posterity

I hope we will make good use of it too. It seems like a lot of people in our country are all too eager to take liberty and freedom for granted, happily handing it over to the tyrants and pressuring others to do the same. They trust their government so much they're willing to give up their rights in return for "protection". Bizarre.

[RagingInMiami]

114. How will you defend it's liberty and freedom.

[terip64]

6. I sang this song at my dad's funeral and it means something to me...

especially this verse

O beautiful for heroes proved
In liberating strife.
Who more than self their country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!

[blues90]

9. Even if I liked the song

Which I don't , bush has managed to rip that idea to shreads . The words relate to god and riches , golden and so on and a direction to benefit all , well this has certainly failed big time and no matter what is done after this point it will never wash away all the needlessly shead blood ,ever .

I think it's time for a new tune that describes the wrong we have done and the direction to take to make up for it as much as possible , this of course would mean over throwing the government and taking their stolen funds and dispensing it to repair all the damage that can be repaired . But america discribed in this tune never was and now most certainly never will be , not even close .

[jerry611]

17. Wrongs we have done?

What wrong did we do that would forve us to overthrow our government?

I don't agree with the Iraq war either. I don't agree with most of the things that America does today. But that doesn't mean I want to go out and burn our flag. That doesn't mean I want to declare a revolution. That doesn't mean I think we should abandon our national anthem and every patriotic song we ever wrote.

[blues90]

66. well we may not agree and that's cool

I didn't vote for bush or support the occupation in Iraq or did i stand to profit from any of this , however i am a citizen of the USA and I feel me along with many many other citizens could have done more back when bush stole the 2000 election by not falling into the bull of the guilt trips like supporting the troops as a basis of not supporting the war , bush did say you are either with me of against me and we never did force an effort long enough to drive the point home that we were indeed agaist him and ready to stand up to this administration and possibly this attack and murder would have ended by now . If we failed at least we tried our best and I don't feel we tried our best , pretty simple . i did not jump on the guilt bandwagon claiming I supported the troops in the view that bush and most americans supported , I supported the troops by relating that most of them never joined the guard with the intent to end up in a death wish which is what this is and they have not much choice . If you did not live and were of age to find yourself in nam then you may not feel the same way as I do .

[originalpckelly]

13. God is shedding again...

he does it every year at this time. God-sized shedding means a God-sized lint brush.

[Arugula Latte]

72. And God won't stay off the couch...

even though I have one of those God-zappers that gives him a little shock when he gets up there to shed.

[Vidar]

79. Ah, the real function of the liberty cross statue--a god zapper.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

21. I love this song. Both the words and the melody.

I have since grade school.
Can't get through it these days without shedding a tear.

[Toucano]

24. I think you're wrong.

The lyric is not about the history of America, but about it's future - the potential - and the need for change to achieve that potential.

America! America!
May God thy gold refine
Till all success be nobleness
And every gain divine!

and

America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
Till selfish gain no longer stain
The banner of the free!

[theophilus]

27. We had the same idea. You said it better. n/t

[Toucano]

30. You're sweet. You said it very well.

I think the song is very popular because it can easily be misinterpreted by false patriots: they hear something other than what's there. We hear what's there (which is beautiful), so both sides like it.

Plus, even a heretic like me is moved by the CONCEPT of grace.

[theophilus]

26. Why do many folks like to live at the extreme ends of arguments?

Try reading the lyrics and analyzing what they are saying. To me they are saying that America is a great country that has some problems. Hopefully, in the future, these problems will be eliminated and America will be truly great on all levels. Isn't that how you feel, American?

America was founded on some noble principles. From time to time we, as a nation, have lived up to those principles and even gone beyond them to make nobler principles. From time to time we have disgraced ourselves. Individually and collectively.

"God shed His Grace on thee", to me, is saying "Please, God, give us grace". We need it. Look at the other stanzas and see that they are striving for a better land, not asking for praise for a perfect one. Just my two cents and I like this song better than TSSB. I wish "This Land is Your Land" would be our anthem, though.

[Swamp Rat]

43. Well, if some Americans would stop ACTING LIKE NAZIS, then others might

stop complaining.



"The concept of propaganda has undergone a fundamental transformation, particularly as the result of political practice in Germany. Throughout the world today, people are beginning to see that a modern state, whether democratic or authoritarian, cannot withstand the subterranean forces of anarchy and chaos without propaganda. It is not only a matter of doing the right thing; the people must understand that the right thing is the right thing. Propaganda includes everything that helps the people to realize this.

Political propaganda in principle is active and revolutionary. It is aimed at the broad masses. It speaks the language of the people because it wants to be understood by the people. Its task is the highest creative art of putting sometimes complicated events and facts in a way simple enough to be understood by the man on the street. Its foundation is that there is nothing the people cannot understand, but rather things must be put in a way that they can understand. It is a question of making it clear to him by using the proper approach, evidence, and language.

Propaganda is a means to an end. Its purpose is to lead the people to an understanding that will allow them to willingly and without internal resistance devote themselves to the tasks and goals of a superior leadership. If propaganda is to succeed, it must know what it wants. It must keep a clear and firm goal in mind, and seek the appropriate means and methods to reach that goal. Propaganda as such is neither good nor evil. Its moral value is determined by the goals it seeks.

Propaganda must be creative. It is by no means a matter for the bureaucracy or official administration, but rather it is a matter of productive fantasy. The genuine propagandist must be a true artist. He must be a master of the popular soul, using it as an instrument to express the majesty of a genuine and unified political will. Propaganda can be pro or con. In neither case does it have to be negative. The only thing that is important is whether or not its words are true and genuine expressions of a people’s values. During its period of opposition, the National Socialist movement proved that criticism can be constructive, indeed, that in a time which the government is in the hands of destructive powers it may be the only constructive element."

- Dr. Joseph Goebbels, Der Kongress zur Nürnberg 1934 (Munich: Zentralverlag der NSDAP., Frz. Eher Nachf., 1934), pp. 130-141. Speech given at Nuremberg Rally - 1934.

[Endangered Specie]

31. Oh beautiful, for smoggy skies, insecticided grain

I prefer George Carlin's version:
Oh beautiful, for smoggy skies, insecticided grain
For strip-mined mountain's majesty above the asphalt plain.
America, America, man shits his waste on thee
And hides your pines with billboard signs, from sea to oily sea!

[Rainscents]

62. Don't forget... Oh, GMO and Oh beautiful Chemical foods

[WhiteTara]

49. 'specially since God is a woman n/t

:;)

[Rainscents]

67. HA, I always knew God was woman!!!

Now I know for sure!!! :P :hi:

[WhiteTara]

133. My favorite book

When God was a Woman by Merlin Stone.

You will be able to trace your linage.
:hi:

[jsamuel]

63. I guess the question you should ask yourself is, does the flag represent

America as it is today or what America strives to be?

[jerry611]

90. The flag represents freedom, liberty, and democracy

Which is why people who burn the American flag are nothing but complete f-ing morons. If you hate Bush, fine, burn a doll of Bush or something. But burning the flag destroys a symbol that was used going all the way back to the revolution that means freedom, liberty, democracy, and the persuit of happiness.
Now should flag burning be banned. No of course not. But I am still against the practice and have no respect for those that do it.

I also think people in the mid-east who burn our flag are a buch of idiots. They burn our flag, which is a symbol of freedom. Yet if they burned their own country's flag, they'd be put to death.

[OzarkDem]

74. I like it, its beautiful

perhaps you should view of it in light of the time in which it was written.

What exactly is so bad about it?

[jerry611]

91. It has the word "god" in it, and it glorifies America

I guess that automatically makes it politically incorrect, pro-fascist, and too offensive to atheists.

[BigMcLargehuge]

81. it wasn't until I was 10 that I learned it wasn't

"God shat his grace on thee"

[cboy4]

83. They played it during the 7th inning stretch at tonight's SF Giants

game in Denver against the Rockies.

Blah.

[Deja Q]

92. Undimmed by human tears!

Too true.

[BreweryYardRat]

93. I have to respectfully disagree with you.

I think you're letting your sadness and cynicism over recent events and the few darker moments in our history get the better of you. And that's making you forget all the principles and beauty this country has stood for, and will stand for again.

[rasputin1952]

97. I enjoy the song myself, and there are some wonderful lines in it as well:

"And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

Till souls wax fair as earth and air
And music-hearted sea!

Till selfish gain no longer stain
The banner of the free!

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears! "

There is great nobility in those words, something we can all learn from...:)

[Hekate]

104. God mend thine every flaw...I've always liked this song abt the promise of

There's a lot of fine sentiment in this song without it being sentimental. It points us toward the promise that we have yet to fully realize.

I believe the promise of America is about this: that every generation must strive in its own way to understand the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The masses won't bother because they question little about their lives. But in every generation one group or another of outsiders WILL rise up to challenge the status quo, and will demand the fulfillment of the promise inherent in our foundational documents.

You know the drill: that all humans are created equal -- and that our birthright ("endowed") consists of certain inalienable rights -- you know what they are, but you have to think through them, and feel them, and actually notice them.

God mend thine every flaw...

We become better when large numbers of people actually engage these ideas, get in our faces and challenge us. When I was a kid it was Negroes (and if you are my age you remember when "black" was rude and "colored" was a Southern euphemism, but "Negro" was dignified). Women, Vietnam vets and war resisters have all taken turns.

And at the moment I swear it is the Mexicans and Mexican-Americans -- Latinos/Hispanics -- all those hundreds of thousands who recently took to the streets so peacefully to say "We're here."

When these people display such faith in the promise of this country, how can I despair? They hold us to it. We need them to do that. And we need to respond in kind.

Hekate

[Jeffersons Ghost]

103. it's still quite beautiful...

Now if we could just use it at more events, as we phase out that "Star Spangled War" song.

[liberalpress]

121. I'm nearly positive I'll be beaten unmercifully for this, but...

America is how you percieve it to be. You can see it as a facist state, opressing its people, rewarding its upperclass. And you, of course will be right.

I, on the other hand, prefer the words of Robert F. Kennedy, at his brother Jack's funeral. I was tweleve at the time and they stuck with me. I ignored them for a while, blinded by youth, but as I have grown older they have become even more poignant and precious. I'm paraphrasing here, but I believe I preserved the meaning.

"Some people see things the way they are and ask "why?" I see things they can be and ask "Why not?"

[gauguin57]

131. I love the lyrics to "America." They make me cry these days, because

the Bush Admin. and the military-industrial-congressional congress (see the film "Why We Fight" -- you'll love it!) have taken us so far afield from this country's original values.

I don't believe God is a "his" ... but other than that, I really love a lot of those lyics.

"Confirm thy soul in self-control, thy liberty in law." I just LOVE those words.

Now, American under the Bushies HAS no self-control, and they're trying to make laws so far beyond what we need to keep our liberty ... BUT, that's why I love the song. It reminds me of what we HAVE been and what we COULD be again (once we get the Chimp outta our White House).

[SammyWinstonJack]

143. How about our National Anthem? "Star Spangled Banner"?

Isn't that a war song? "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave". Strikes me as pathologically sick, of late. How are we "Free" and "Brave"? What a sick joke we are!

[WildEyedLiberal]

149. More fodder for Sean Hannity to claim that the left hates America

Jesus Christ. :eyes: