Interesting abortion debate with my grandfather...

[Sir Jeffrey]

I don't normally post things like this because I find it boring, but I thought this might give everyone a clue into the mind of your typical Bush fundy psycho voter.

Here is the scenario:
I am a college-educated socialist living in rural Kentucky. I fit in here like plutonium and coffee.

Gpa is a fundy Southern Baptist whackjob with a 6th grade education. No shit, he really dropped out at 6th grade. And no flames about "not all Southern Baptists are fundy whackjobs"...I'm not stupid, just setting the scene.

"Gpa:

You libruls are violatin' the bibul by wanting these babies aborted.

Me:

Um, no, that is not really true. I can only think of instances where I wouldn't want to have the government make that choice for me. I can also think of instances where preventing an abortion violates the bible.

Gpa:

All abortion is agin the bibul, and that is how the devil sold the amurkin people onit and this country has blood onits hands.

Me:

Okay, didn't god have the Amalek babies dashed against the rocks in the Old Testament?

Gpa:

That's because god wanted the Israelites to have that land.

Me:

Okay, so if I want your land, it would be okay to kill you and take it if I told you god said it was okay?

Gpa:

The good lord wouldn't do that to me.

Me:

Good for you, bad for the Amaleks though. But anyway, what if a woman, wanting to have a baby, carried to near term, then discovered that the baby had a genetic disorder whereby the heart had formed on the outside of the womb, would you force the woman to give birth to it anyway knowing that it would die during childbirth?

Gpa:

Weeeell the good lord has a plan for everything.

Me:

So you'd force her to give birth?

Gpa:

Well yeah!

Me:

What if by forcing her to do so you were virtually guaranteeing her death too.

Gpa:

I hardly think that happens all that much. The good lord doesn't make mistakes.

Me:

But you said all abortion was against the bible.

Gpa:

yeah.

Me:

And I'm asking you in this one particularly plausible scenario, would you force my wife, for example, to carry a DOA baby to full term which is tantamount to a death sentence for her as well? And doesn't that violate the "thou shalt not kill" commandment twice instead of once?

Gpa:

Weeell when I was coming up we had women die during childbirth all the time.

Me:

Touche."

So the big solution is to kill off the undesirables one way or another. And how is this not fascism again?

[REP]

1. I'd Be Tempted To Ask Grampy

"What if a {insert ethnic/religious group of choice} impregnated your granddaughter? You agin abortion then?"

[Sir Jeffrey]

4. I'm emailing him this question now. nt

[sinkingfeeling]

2. I always ask those people how they explain that only 32.5% of all

fertilized human 'eggs' ever come to full-term birth without an man-made abortion. Why does god kill off so many 'babies'?

[Sir Jeffrey]

6. I actually brought up something similar...

He reverted back to the whole "god dudn't make mistakes" bs.

[Bluerthanblue]

10. so

what was the ark business all about? And the regret complete with a 'rainbow promise'?

And who made satan?
If god made 'everything'???

[Warpy]

19. Many years ago I worked with a janitor with a sixth grade

education. I was a researcher deep within the bowels of a building near the janitor supplies, so I had a lot of chances for conversation.

He'd begin the day by reading ten major newspapers. He saved books for home, when he could concentrate on them. He was a wise old soul, and while I didn't agree with him on everything, I came to respect his opinion highly.

Poor grandpa sounds like he just got older. Best thing to do is allow him peace in his remaining few years.

[Sir Jeffrey]

21. Kind of hard to allow someone peace...

When they come over to your house uninvited and witness to you about how you and your family are going to burn in hell and whatnot.

And my gpa has always been that way. Now that he is retired, he has more time to bother his family with this stuff.

Keep in mind that the war has been raging since 2003, and 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 happened five years ago (on September the Eleventh two thousand and one). I tried being the gentleman and keeping politics out of it, but he just won't keep his mouth shut and talk about nice things. I mean, you can only be called an evil librul so often before it gets under your skin. And I have thick skin too BTW.

[Warpy]

24. Leave the room

Lock yourself in the bathroom if you have to, just grab something to read on the way. If you hear a lull in the ranting, poke your head out and say "Are you done yet?"

Alternatively, walk outside, hop in the car, go do one of those errands you've been purring off. When you get back, if he's still there, ask "Are you done yet?"

Just be ABSENT when he starts to rant.

I did that with my parents when they got sucked into Lamebawl land 12 years ago. Eventually they got the point that if they wanted to see me, they were going to have to can the ranting. Yes, I left my own house from time to time, leaving them ranting at each other. It must have been unsatisfying, because they stopped.

You may not get through to him like I did to my folks, but at least you'll be away from the harangues and they won't screw up your blood pressure.

In any case, he hasn't got much time left and he's just clinging to what he knows, afraid if he lets go of it he'll go to fundy hell. It's sad, but it's his choice. You don't have to join him, though, and you don't have to tolerate intolerable behavior.

[Sir Jeffrey]

26. I appreciate your comments...

but I'd feel like a prisoner in my own house. I am one of those "My home is my sanctuary" types. As an introvert, it is where I come to decompress and hide away from all of redneck humanity.

[Warpy]

29. I'm a fellow introvert

but climbing into my car and driving to a local park provided more decompression than listening to my parents ranting.

The "Are you done yet?" is what gets the point across.

Seriously, try it. It worked very well for me. It's either that or change your locks and make sure they're set when you're not in the mood to be sent to hell for lack of orthodoxy.

[catmother]

28. my grandmother only had a 6th grade education. had to work

and help support the family. she read her newspapers every night. she could write letters and spell. her punctuation was not that great, but considering the lack of education she did pretty well. she was a devout catholic. when my son was born in '61 she said to me "child don't have any more children, the world is not a nice place anymore". so i'm assuming that she felt birth control was okay even though the catholic church forbade it. she passed in '73 at the age of 77.

[smokey nj]

3. Ask Gpa if he thinks the government should ban.........

pork and shell fish. Would he be willing to sacrifice his barbeques because both of those things are agin the bible as well.

[Sir Jeffrey]

11. Can you give me the cite for that?

Because he loooooooves BBQ pork chops.

[smokey nj]

13. Leviticus, I believe. Definitely old testament.........

I'll google and see if I can find a chapter and verse for you.

[Bluerthanblue]

14. here ya go-

Leviticus, Chapter 11
1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron,
2
"Speak to the Israelites and tell them: Of all land animals these are the ones
you may eat:
3
any animal that has hoofs you may eat, provided it is cloven-footed and chews
the cud.
4
But you shall not eat any of the following that only chew the cud or only have
hoofs: the camel, which indeed chews the cud, but does not have hoofs and is
therefore unclean for you;
5
2 the rock badger, which indeed chews the cud, but does not have hoofs and is
therefore unclean for you;
6
the hare, which indeed chews the cud, but does not have hoofs and is therefore
unclean for you; and the pig,
7
which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud
and is therefore unclean for you.
8
Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they
are unclean for you.

[Sir Jeffrey]

15. Thanks!

Does this mean I have to throw out my rock badger loin too? I've got a freezer full of that stuff.

[smokey nj]

18. You beat me to it!! n/t

[stop the bleeding]

5. ask him this...

is it pro-life to kill 300,000 people in the name of their freedom?

[Sir Jeffrey]

9. I did and he brought up something crazy...

He mentioned that the bible gives us the right to counter "lawless aggression". WTF? I've read the bible several times and I know there is nothing about lawless agression anywhere in it. He knows it isn't in there either because he wouldn't even try to find it for me.

I asked him why we weren't in Saudi Arabia, or North Korea, or Indonesia, etc. to fulfill our alleged biblical mandate to counter lawless aggression. He had no clue. he still thought 9/11 was carried about by Iraqis.

He was (and is) your typical clueless Bush voter. He brought up the bit about Huseein's war crimes...and of course I mentioned the fact that he got his weapons from the US as well as the damned coordinates. He said he'd pray about it. I'm sure he did.

[stop the bleeding]

20. you can lead a horse to water, but until it realizes that it is thirsty

it will never drink, keep trying.

Hoe is he gonna answer before the man when he standing there at the gates of heaven and God asks him why he supported something that Jesus would never do, and how is he gonna splain to the Lord about all of the innocent blood on your pappy's hands. People tend to think differently when they know they have some splainen to do before the lord, and if he can not show you the verse(about it being alright killing innocent people) in the bible then it probably doesn't exist.

Show him the one about thou shall not kill, let him ponder on that on his way to meet the man.

Keep trying.;)

[azurnoir]

7. Be sure to

to ask Gpa about that Jubilee thingy, I could really use some debts being forgiven about now.

[Sir Jeffrey]

12. Interestingly enough...

The reason he came to visit was regarding my inability to pay my student loans. Perhaps I can request a deferment on biblical grounds?????

[azurnoir]

16. Once every 7 years

[Bluerthanblue]

8. Tell Grampa that ectopic pregnancies

will KILL the mother, and ultimately the baby- and the only way to save the mothers life is to end the pregnancy immediately-

And sadly, ectopic pregnancies are becoming more and more common-

I almost lost my sister twice to this.

Also, ask Grampy if there weren't babies in the wombs of those who drowned in the flood, or who lived in the cities of Soddom and Gemorrah??? What of those unborn children?

And If incest is an abomination, how did Lot's daughters not deserve to be murdered along with their father for 'raping their father to keep their family line going?'-

The bible says many things- and it can be used to attempt to justify much of the evil in this world-

it is a book, not a being.
it has become the idol it warns of.

peace,
blu

[Sir Jeffrey]

17. What is odd is that he was saying all of this...

With my wife in the kitchen making dinner. My wife is pretty mild-mannered, but she wanted to smack him.

And I am sorry about your sister's difficulties. I just hope people like my grandfather don't get to make the life or death decision for people like your sister.

[Bluerthanblue]

22. my hunch is that

were he to have this actual situation come up that effected someone he really knew and cherished, the whole issue would be moot-
Its easy for people to say they believe 'thus and such' but, in the end, when the hypothetical question is hyperpersonal, it's amazing how people see things differently. Sadly, for my beloved sister, she lost her four babies before they were ever 'viable'.... and it helped to destroy her marriage- she's single, and using her life to enrich other peoples lives in remarkable ways- I admire and love her a lot. But I ache for her, and so many others who have endured her sorrow, suffering and pain.

Your Grampy is stuck in what he feels is the safe, 'follow the rules, and everything will be ok' mindset- I understand that thinking, but it can really burn you- I hope he doesn't have to experience that-

peace,
blu

[EC]

23. Try this:

Ecclesiastes 6
1 ¶ There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, and it is great among men:
2 a man to whom God has given riches, wealth, and honor, so that he lacks nothing for his soul of all that he desires, yet God does not give him power to eat of it, but a stranger eats it. This is vanity, and it is an evil disease.
3 If a man fathers a hundred, and lives many years, so that the days of his years are many, and his soul is not filled with good, and also is for him no burial; I say, a miscarriage is better than he.


I found this in Ecclesiastes some time back, seems to me it's saying that if the soul is bad, it's better not to be born...

Also, since God is omnipotent, doesn't that mean it's God's hand that is guiding the woman to decide? And who is Gpa to decide for God, what another human being should or shouldn't do, is he hearing commands from God?

[Sir Jeffrey]

25. Hey now...

"...And who is Gpa to decide for God, what another human being should or shouldn't do..."

If you knew my gpa you'd know better than to ask me that.

:D

Seriously though, the entire radical rightwing pseudo Christo-fundamentalist fascist mindset is precisely based on the idea that they AND ONLY THEY preach the true message of god. Any equivocation is a sign that the devil is seeking to infiltrate the individual. Any knowledge sought out that contradicts anything in the bible is heretical. I know we laugh and kid each other on DU about the American Taliban, but there is more truth to that than most care to admit.

[Wetzelbill]

27. Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

"28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
"

Ask your grandfather if he advocates rape and a payoff to the father of the raped girl.


I'd say you should ask him if he believes supports the idea that over 1 million women around the world die a year from nonmedical abortions, but I'm afraid he would answer that he would rather have that than an abortion.

[prole_for_peace]

30. exodus chapter 22

http://www.slate.com/id/2143176/entry/2144080/

-snip-
"If a man pushes a pregnant woman and she miscarries, but is not otherwise hurt, then the offender pays only a fine to the victim's husband. This has interesting implications for how we think about abortion—in particular about the claim that killing a 17-week-old fetus is the same as killing a 17-year-old. According to Exodus, it's not. As Gorin writes: "The text seems to clearly state that the destruction of a fetus is not a capital offense. It is a property crime for which monetary compensation is paid."

blogging the bible by david plotz



to read this from the beginning - http://www.slate.com/id/2141050/
it is great

[Bluerthanblue]

31. there is also the one where if a man thinks his wife might have

been unfaithful, she must drink this potion that would cause her womb to shrivel-
and be left barren.
Of course no similar 'test' for a phillandering husband- virginity and fidelity was reserved solely for females-

from numbers 5:12

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.

16 " 'The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband"- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. "
" 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."

23 " 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people. 28 If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 " 'This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and defiles herself while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the LORD and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.' "

[Sir Jeffrey]

32. So long as we're listing weird bible verses...let's get creepy!

Leviticus 3: 1-5

1 " 'If someone's offering is a fellowship offering, and he offers an animal from the herd, whether male or female, he is to present before the LORD an animal without defect. 2 He is to lay his hand on the head of his offering and slaughter it at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. Then Aaron's sons the priests shall sprinkle the blood against the altar on all sides. 3 From the fellowship offering he is to bring a sacrifice made to the LORD by fire: all the fat that covers the inner parts or is connected to them, 4 both kidneys with the fat on them near the loins, and the covering of the liver, which he will remove with the kidneys. 5 Then Aaron's sons are to burn it on the altar on top of the burnt offering that is on the burning wood, as an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the LORD."

I bet if I did this outside a church I'd get arrested.