Hillary Ain't the Problem - The "Pitchfork" Syndrome Is

[ruggerson]

I don't support Hillary in '08. Matter of fact, I'm far more interested in '06, though I can double task and find '08 speculation fun and intriguing.

But I'll tell you one thing: if Hillary Clinton is the nominee (which I don't think is guaranteed in the least), it won't be because of the "corporate media" or voter fraud, it will be because DEMOCRATS around the country voted for her and believed in her and thought she was the best choice.

And I will vote for her with no reservations in the general election.

It's disturbing that when she utters relatively innocuous words about Bush (only when CHALLENGED to say something nice about him) that she is lambasted and attacked for being diplomatic, wisely cordial and publicly non confrontational.

Many of you give lip service to the fact that you want a Democrat to UNITE the country in '08. But when a leading Democrat practices that philosophy publicly, she is reviled and scorned.

What the hell did you want Hillary to say when asked the question? That Bush is personally Satanic and has no redeeming personal qualities and beats his wife? Do you think that would score points in the vast middle of the country that is literally ACHING for leaders who will bind us together and not rip us apart. She didn't defend his policies, for crying out loud, she said some harmless things about his personality!

The problem doesn't lie, in this instance, with Hillary. It lies with those who are so childishly out of touch with the American mood that they would shrilly demand that she hew to some rabid form of Bush-despising political correctness.

If you're a candidate for President, hate his policies. Despise what the man has done to this country. Be clear about that. But be civil about him personally. That's how you win elections. Many DU'ers, unfortunately, seem to be adddicted to losing.

[Selatius]

1. The thing is she lost the anti-war vote

When your kids are dying on some distant battlefield, it's hard not to be frustrated as a parent, especially if it's a war fought for a reason that doesn't exist.

[Mend]

3. I believe she will end the war and not start any new ones if

elected. She is not my first choice but I will vote for her or any other Democrat, all of whom will end the war and not start new ones.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

44. If I remember correctly, that's what everyone thought about Nixon....

...oops.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. I want to believe that, I really do

and if she is the Dem candidate, I will hold my nose and vote for her.

But I am dying to know why you think she will end a war she has openly supported.

[The Magistrate]

8. What Is The Anti-War Vote, Sir?

Only a miniscule proportion of the majority of persons who want the war ended as quickly as possible blame anyone but the present occupant of the Oval Office for it, and the greatest proportionm of them do not consider as soon as possible to mean tomorrow or the day after.

[tocqueville]

2. let's the debate begin...

:popcorn:

[The Magistrate]

4. Well Said, Mr. Ruggerson!

[Alamom]

10. I agree & rec. eom

[ClusterFreak]

5. Very well argued....

...and if Chimpy himself is smart enough to not talk smack about his political opponents on a personal level, surely we can expect one of our own to do the same. At the very least.

I do wonder though if for some people, Hillary simply represents too much of a centrist view, and they are just ready to pounce on her when she says ANYTHING.

[No New War]

6. I agree

I don't support Hillary either, but any potential candidate would have responded similarly to that question. Not the best issue to debate her suitability for candidacy by a long shot.

[Cronus Protagonist]

7. What the hell did you want Hillary to say when asked the question?

She could have said, "I don't think my personal opinions of Mr. Bush's personal attributes are a matter for public discussion."

End of story.



Educate A Freeper - Flaunt Your Opinions!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[ClusterFreak]

12. Perhaps, but if she had said something like that....

...wouldn't she just get picked apart for not being able to say anything good about Bush on a personal level? Just playing Devil's Advocate.

[Tactical Progressive]

15. That's exactly right

Chris Matthews and the rest of the Dem-shivving cabal of media whores would be saying Americans want the parties to work together, and Hillary can't even say anything nice about Bush - what does that tell the American people? Is that what the American people want? Blah blah blah.

Hillary's response was perfect. Which is meaningless to a Hillary hater.

[Cronus Protagonist]

16. I differ from you - if you're going to get chivvied anyway...

Choose the response that results in the least loss of your valuables. She's losing her base with every single bon mot like that. Bad choice on her part, and I guess this is indicative of the tack her campaign will take.

I'm concerned we'll lose once more to the dumb-ass campaign staff that continue to think triangulating for Bush's weaker supporters is a winning strategy. It's not. Energize the base and bring in the greate unwashes mass of non-voters is a better strategy, and one that, once won, would allow us to right all the wrongs perpetrated against the US by the traitorous Bush regime.



Educate A Freeper - Flaunt Your Opinions!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Tactical Progressive]

29. She shouldn't have to spend one dollar on 'energizing the base'

They should be energizing themselves; it's their country.

[Cronus Protagonist]

33. We were talking about words, not dollars, and she's losing her base

Every time she panders, she loses a few more bloggers and lefties of note. She lost me with her vote to hand over power to the monkey. She'll lose a lot more if she keeps up her love-fest with GOP traitors.

She has a lot of influential people looking for an alternative to her, and rightly so. Personally, I'm shooting for a Gore re-emergence. At least he's liberal and doesn't suck George's cock, metaphorically speaking, of course.



Educate A Freeper - Flaunt Your Opinions!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Tactical Progressive]

36. Dollars are words

When the GOP tries to make it seem like Hillary won't work with them she'll have to spend ten million dollars to run ads hilighting how well she has worked with them in the Senate, as many of them have said.

Now she'll only have to spend five million dollars.

If she had responded to a request for congeniality with vituperitiveness she'd have to spend fifteen million dollars. And air time responding to backbiting right-wing questions from the msm whores.

Do you understand anything about politics?


Never mind, I thought you were being serious until you gave us your real take: Hillary has a 'love-fest with GOP traitors' and 'sucks George Bush's cock' (metaphorically). Lovely.

[Cronus Protagonist]

46. Do you really think the RW echo chamber will back off?

Tell the chimp how much you love him and the GOP will back off and only spend $5 million instead of $10 million? huh?

Don't they want to win? Won't they replay her acts of verbal fellatio later when she claims she's different than him? Won't they play every nice thing she said and tell people that she flip-flopped when she says he's not such a nice guy? Won't they use every single thing they can against her, and make some up if they can't find anything?

You know they will, you have to, unless you have a learning disability, or something like that. Memory loss from a fall? If that's the case, I'm sorry for even having to bring this up, but we're dealing with rapacious fascists here.

And if Hillary runs ads showing how well she's been working with Republicans, she'll get my attention. I'll attack her in the primaries so bad she'll need the anal equivalent of oraljel just to sit on her Senate seat for the next four years.

As for interjecting a little fun into my conversations, I do that because it's fun, just like thousands of other DU'ers. Perhaps you're a DLC type, well, that's your choice, but your losing ways are "noted in the building," as your buddies on the other side might say.

:puke:



Educate A Freeper - Flaunt Your Opinions!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Tactical Progressive]

49. What, they're going to play clips of Hillary acting nice to Bush

to impugn her running against someone else? Have you ever even seen an election? You still don't get it about the money or the speech. And where did I say the right-wing was going to back off? You have to make up strawmen and bounce from ridiculous point to even more ridiculous point because you appear to understand nearly nothing about national politics.

And you're not 'interjecting fun' into anything. You're making shitty juvenile remarks about Hillary, which is a direct reflection not on her, but on you. Feel free. I think more progressives are beginning to understand just how credible the Hillary haters really are.

Good luck with your oraljel strategy.

[sandnsea]

9. Bury with false praise

He really sticks to what he believes to be true, he is loyal to his advisors, he doesn't bend to political pressure, a bunch of ways to answer that question that point out his weaknesses.

Charming and charismatic? Well maybe if she's trying to convince people of his socipathic cult qualities, which he has. But if that was her goal, she missed. As did Durbin when he said the same shit today. The man is dangerous and we've got to stop pretending he's not. We really need to be pressuring him and Cheney to resign.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Hillary is just another political hack playing politics.

She deserves a big yawn (but not my vote) as another devotee of the politics-as-usual of the oligarchy.

[Voltaire99]

50. I used to like Hillary.

I used to like her, oh, fifteen years ago. I recall a splendid family law review article she wrote before she sold her soul; a critical intellect and compassionate heart illuminated it. In the early health reform days in Washington, she still had some fire left; but how quickly and thoroughly it was extinguished!

Today she supports a number of policies that are terrible for America: the Iraq war, outsourcing, and corporate tax breaks are plainly the worst. But there are others. Her lackluster support for abortion rights is as cowardly as her support for an anti-flag burning measure is authoritarian. Failing to fight Bush is also a measure of her character, or lack thereof.

I don't want a president who takes such positions. I could vote for a Republican and get the same thing.

Dems may follow her, of course, if they like. Not I, nor will most progressives I know. We don't give a fuck whether someone calls himself or herself a "Democrat": ha! All that's keeping that term from being rendered meaningless is the synonymity between Democrat and spineless.

[TheCrankyOne]

13. '08

I dislike Hillary especially since she started kissing up to the fundie right wingers. But, I think we have an almost unstoppable team if she and Kerry run together in '08.

[Clark2008]

28. Unstoppable all the way OUT of the White House.

Sorry - your post can't be for real, can it?

What red state would that pairing turn? And, Diebold or no, we have to turn at least two to win.

[TheCrankyOne]

38. I think

She has changed the minds of some of the fundies we are pissed about her sucking up to. All they really want is someone to blow religious smoke up their butts. They are so niave they will believe anything, obviously. Kerry already had a majority of the vote, with Hillary on the ticket I think they can bring in even more votes.

[Tactical Progressive]

14. The attacks on Hillary here have nothing to do with the trivial incidents

They are simply Hillary haters using anything they can to stab at her.

If Gore or Clark or Kerrey or Dean or Obama had been asked for something positive and had responded with the same innocuous praise of his personal charm, there wouldn't be pissy rancor and people deciding, right there on the spot for the thirtieth time, that they're NEVER going to vote for them over whatever trivial bs-du-jour excuse presented itself.

[BurtWorm]

17. Hillary is a problem, but not because she can say she finds Bush charming.

It's because she can't say the war in Iraq is a mistake. And she can't say that because she wants us not to know what she really thinks about the war or almost anything, for fear of creating the sort of polarism her husband couldn't help but create. And that is a problem for her and for those of us who need something positive to vote for.

[Dunvegan]

18. Hillary is running on the "Triangulation Ticket" which is her prerogative

It's not my first choice, but after the smoke clears at the Democratic nomination, I'm working for whatever candidate we stand up.

PRIOR to that nomination, I'm strongly for Gore or Clark; very supportive of Kerry, Dean, or Feingold; and interested in the campaigns of Hillary and others.

I just haven't seen Hillary campaign for president, yet. I've seen Gore, Clark, Kerry, and Dean run for the presidential nomination, so I have some idea of their ideas. Hillary is an unknown.

Feingold hasn't run for president either, but he's extremely clear on his ideas, and I have a good idea where he stands, and it's a good stand.

Hillary is still a somewhat unknown congressional and (even more so) presidental quantity. I'm waiting for her to run before I can say anything about her platform or possible performance.

But you'll find me working for the Democratic nominee in '08 (and nominees this year) as if my life depends on it...because it very well may.

[billbuckhead]

20. Gore's my first choice, Hillary second, Clark third

Hillary will win because she is the most competent. When she needs to be, she is quite compelling at closing the deal. I think a lot of Dem activists are going to be quite shocked at how strong her ground game is.

Remember the peace and prosperity of the late 90's? Let's let the Clinton's bring it back.

[Tactical Progressive]

25. I think Hillary is going to run a very professional

and solid campaign, unlike most Democratic campaigns, and do it with grace.

I'm hoping that she kind of stuns the media into not being quite such a nasty bunch of Republican attack dogs that they've become over the past fifteen years. Maybe they can focus on the probability of having our first woman President in the country's history. I'm not counting on that part though.

[juajen]

19. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!

I wish I'd said that. Maddening isn't it? Why do democrats eat their own?

[Alamom]

22. Me, too. Yes, it is. Who knows. Thank you & Dunvegan..n/t

[alittlelark]

21. I will hold my nose as I work my butt off for her is she is the nominee

But, DAMN.....I fevently hope she is not. She has more baggage than Paris Hilton heading off to Tahiti for a few months.

[Oleladylib]

23. Well written and I agree!!

It's time for some measure of intelligence to return to the WH! Hillary knows her facts and whether one agrees with them or not..they are still facts..Much of the voting population would prefer a philosophy rather than a fact..that's how we got the right wingers.

[Tactical Progressive]

32. That's a very interesting way of putting it

Philosophy versus Facts.

[natrat]

24. she's fucking gross and this thread is bullshit

corporate media and voter fraud is the problem

[tatertop]

39. Let the dreamers dream.

They are still talking like these elections will not be fixed.
Crazy shit. Where were they in 2000? Where were they in 2004?
We are about to get f***** up the ass and we are still
discussing the viability of the unelectable Hill.
Wow.

[BooScout]

52. And your response is such a well thought out counter to the OP

:eyes:

[mtnsnake]

26. You nailed it, ruggerson

I hope Clark gets the nod, but Hillary would be fine with me, too. I'd have full confidence in her running a hell of a campaign should she run. One thing you could be guaranteed of is that she'd fight back tooth and nail if someone from the right wing attacks her. She's already proven she doesn't stand there and take any grief, and it scares the other side to death just thinking about it.

[Flubadubya]

27. Kinda like "Love the sinner... hate the sin", eh?

I was actually thinking something quite similar to what you are saying here when I heard about this on CNN today. I certainly wouldn't expect her to go after him with a pitchfork when the question was rather "leading" in the first place. She is a very smart woman.

[Mr_Spock]

30. It's good to see some of us trying to be reasonable about Hillary

I do understand people's fear that she will be nominated and lose, but I think we should try to treat her fairly until the time comes.

[SaveElmer]

31. Thank you...

Very well put...

[Agony]

34. She is not my first choice

A few years back when she was running for senator I listened to her speak and then shook her hand...I liked her a lot better back then. She does have political savvy that is impressive and I agree with you, that is what she is playing here. I have grown to dislike her a fair bit partly because I think she has sold out on issues and I don't trust her. I will hope and fight for another Dem for '08 but if she gets the nomination I will support her. Like i told another democratic candidate earlier this year "I would vote for you if you were a stump with democrat written on your forehead" Can't we agree that the most important thing right now for '06 and '08 is to get the democrats back in power! Then the real work begins...making 'em do the right thing.

Hey! I take umbrage with your derogatory remark about pitchforks tho! Nothing better to have when moving a pile of loose hay!

[Autonomy]

35. Hillary is probably going to get the Dem nomination

she's probably going to win the presidency, and most of us will probably like her like we liked Bill.

I'd give your left arm to have Hills as prez.

[leesa]

37. When will she go public about the war being illegal?

[tatertop]

40. as soon as lo blo jo tells her it is so

Hill is the 100% guaranteed to lose ticket.

[Warren Stupidity]

41. Until primary season is over: she sucks.

After that, if she manages to win, she's great. Sorry but I do not intend to support that corrupt asshat until I have to.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

42. You're welcome to your opinion...but.....

...we've got more than 60% of the country who now believes that we're on the wrong track, and Hillary decides that now's the time to say nice things about Herr Busch and have a fund-raising event hosted by Murdoch.

Murdoch is one of the driving forces behind the media support for the NeoCons, and Herr Busch is one of the ringleaders of the NeoCon inner circle. Those are two of the people we're trying to get rid of, are they not?

If you want to applaud Hillary's actions, fine for you. IMHO, no thanks.

[Marr]

43. You honestly believe that?

You actually believe that people get the nomination because they're the peoples' choice? No, if Hillary Clinton manages to get the nomination, it'll be because she's got enough juice in both the party apparatus and the corporate funding machine to make her the least objectionable option out of a limited number of "approved" candidates.

I'd like to see someone other than a Clinton or a Bush.

[Catherine Vincent]

45. Well said!

:thumbsup:

[goclark]

48. Well stated! We need to stick with the process

They always know how to divide and conquer us.

There is nothing Hillary could say or do that would hurt us as one deed by Bush.

Remember that Hillary really was the Co - President before and we did fine that time.

[BooScout]

51. I agree 100 %

I am far left as Hillary but I'd give her my vote. I've always thought she's brilliant, eve though I don't agree with her on some issues. It's going to take someone in the center to win back the country. I'm pragmatic enough to understand that and accept it.

[ShortnFiery]

53. Hillary's a great Senator for New York State ...

But no amount of cajoling will get those of us who are anti-war to vote her in as President.

The sooner the DLC faces up to that fact, the better.

You need US (Liberals) if you wish to win the Presidency in 08.

[MadHound]

54. I frankly don't give a damn what she says about Bush

Though it would be a breath of fresh air for a Democratic politician to come out and say it like it is, that yes indeed, Bushco is and evil and vile excuse for a human being. Realistically though, I know that's not going to happen.

No, what bothers me is her ongoing support for this illegal, immoral war, her ongoing pandering for Corporate America in exchange for corporate lucre in her war chest, and her utter unwillingness to protect not just her constituents, but all American citizens from the excesses of Bushco policies and appointments. I realize that she wouldn't win every battle, hell in today's climate she might not win anyway, but damnit, at least she could come out and go down swinging. Instead time after time she continues to enable those who have our worst interests at heart.

And frankly, if she gets the nod, I can in no way bring myself to pull the lever for her. Unlike Hillary, I do have principles that I won't budge on.

[jsamuel]

55. I don't support Hillary either, I may not vote for her in the General if

she wins the primaries. I am that scared of her winning the WH.

However, I think what you brought up goes to what I was talking about a few days ago. I don't hate. I get angry, but I don't hate. I think you are correct that personally attacking someone is bad for anyone. Hate is corrosive.