The real reason so many kids are on Ritalin today

[jmowreader]

The conservatives love to use statistics on Ritalin use among the youth of America as proof that all this liberalism doesn't work. It's obvious to all that because we don't have an hour of Bible-readin' every day in school our children are Holy Terrors On Ritalin.

That's bullshit. We've ALWAYS had children who needed to be medicated in school.

The difference between then and now is that Back Then When Children Rode Their Dinosaurs To School And Read The Bible Six Hours A Day, the kids were takin' a nip of good white lightnin' just before school and again at lunchtime from their dinosaurs' saddlebags. And nobody was on Ritalin.

In the immediate post-Cretaceous period when I went to school (the 1960s and 1970s), marijuana was getting popular. The kids that used to get drunk at lunch changed to marijuana. You'd smoke a joint before classes started, have another one with your lunch, and you were good to go all day. And nobody was on Ritalin.

Now it's literally a federal offense to take alcohol or marijuana onto a school campus, so these kids can't self-medicate. Now they're all on Ritalin...and the teachers look hard to see what OTHER children it might "help."

Kids haven't changed. What HAS changed is the adults.

[Rosemary2205]

1. it's about obedience

from preschool on, anyone who doesn't comply with authority is drugged, or tasered or simply removed from the premises. The younger they can drug up the "troublemakers" the more docile they'll be as adults. Just MHO.

[Deja Q]

18. Not just that. They all want us to live by their standards of society.

I'd say "socialism" but that would be misconstrued. :evilgrin:

And, until now, I never saw their point. Why not be allowed to be one's self?

Because, as an adult, I still don't know how to deal with people and am lonely to the point of... never mind. Haven't and won't. Can't.

But I was finally diagnosed. (never mind Asperger's Syndrome not being recognized in the US until 1994...)

But all that said, it's more convenient to drug up kids than to teach them how to behave. My parents reached me. (Being an Aspie helped) I'm quite the docile adult.

If they made drugs that kept kids from being aggressive or vile - dope the other kids up with that shit. They're the problems.

[undergroundpanther]

45. AGREED

Bully kids are the problem they grow up to be assholes like Bush.

I am on adderall because the abuse in my home growing up that was ignored by adults all around me led to me being tormented in school which led to more crap and now my brain is scarred and adderall helps me .

[mrreowwr_kittty]

87. When WILL they classify asshole-ism a disease?

Betcha if they found a way to medicate that, a lot of the other 'disorders' would disappear.

[mykpart]

145. Remember "Designing Women?"

There was a character on there who had "Obnoxious Personality Disorder." :)

[sweetheart]

41. obedience to authority

That is what school is, dog training.

[1monster]

42. Have you ever been in a classroom where the kids are allowed to

act as they pleased?

I subbed in one on Friday. The regular teacher allows them to talk loudly, sometimes shouting across the room, get up and walk around at any time.

At the end of the day homeroom period where they await dismissal by bus number, the kids were wild. Running, screaming, throwing paper and pencils. It was chaos.

I made them all sit down and be quiet. They hated it, but had they behaved in a civilized manner, I would have allowed them to talk and even be out of their seats.

When a large group of them were dismissed, they ran for the door knocking over chairs and pushing desks. In the hall, they nearly bowled over other students and the Assistant Principal. She made them walk back to the classroom and then walk in a decorous manner down the hall to the exits.

I don't think that either one of us was out of line or teaching the kids to "comply with authority" just for the sake.

Certain levels of behavior are expected in every society. Those are necessary for society to be able to work.

Those same levels of behaviors are an absolute necessity for the classroom, otherwise we don't need teachers, we just need babysitters.

[sweetheart]

102. That's why i never went in to teaching

In business, i've had the priviledge as a teacher, of kicking
anyone out of a lecture who did not want to be there; the
door says "EXIT" please leave, mobile-phone-child.

That teaching is baby sitting, forced concentration camps,
jail cells of a sort, that the kids are "learned".
Some kids don't learn well in that environment, and rebel
against it, out of their nature to be free and not collared
to the hamster wheel. Taming the beast indeed; too much
dog training, whistles, down, up, under the desk, bad, good.

In my student years i always wished the assholes who were just
biding time in the room, could just leave and go get stoned
while the rest of us were actually interested in learning.

I wonder if a school "could" teach free will, given how it
has become *so* about impressing authority, and respect for
command. If i were rich like bill gates, i'd buy a big land
in montana or alberta somewhere and have a "free" booarding school, where
the kids were free to attend the classes at will, and the climate
of teh school celibrated free will, choice and truth, with lots
of ground to run around outdoors, in nature, huge wilderness ground
that kids could go camping if they wanted.

But better i just stick to writing fantasy. :-)

[kath]

126. Actually, there are schools like in your fantasy - they're called

Sudbury schools, modeled after the Sudbury Valley School in Massachusetts, in operation since 1968:
Check out Sudbury Valley's website, which includes quite a few articles/chapters about the Sudbury model:
http://www.sudval.org/

And here is a list of similar schools:
http://www.sudval.org/07_othe_01.html

I've wished for years that we could relocate to an area with a Sudbury-model school. But hubby's job keeps us here. :-(

[Mr_Spock]

136. I went to a "free-school" as a child

I think it really helped me as a free-wheeling Aspergers kid to be able to pick the times when I was ready to focus and learn. I ended up at a higher educational level than kids in tightly controlled school environments. I wish my Aspergers kid had an option where she would be allowed to "freewheel" more - but Sudbury is not in the equation for us either.

[sweetheart]

162. That's brilliant, thank you

It's good to see progress in education. Too bad none
of them are in the UK.

[FloridaPat]

2. I would like to add to the list: because of TV, kids have a 6 second

attention span. Because of TV and video games they have to be constantly entertained or their mind wanders. Schools are boring. Not all teachers are great.

[Heidi]

4. I also think that economics make it impossible

for many parents to give their children the attention they need, and educators too often are treated as babysitters.

[aasleka]

10. set an example

"Because of TV and video games they have to be constantly entertained or their mind wanders."

Because we as parents/teachers/freinds/communities allow it to be ok for TV to be supervision, for the status quo to be ok. I am all for video games as there are some good skills learned in some of them, problem solving, hand eye coordination, tactical planning and communication. Although video games time must be limited and interspersed though the week, not a daily activity. You could say because WE as parents are lazy and do not pay more attention to our families our children suffer and learn bad habits and behaviors for life.

Put down your cell phone and turn the TV off, go online with your kids and discover why the sun burns, or what is happening with the exploration of time travel theories then go outside and throw the football, kick the soccerball, teach them to fish, shoot or how to use a bow. Then the next day ask them if they want to have fun like yesterday or do they just want to watch TV.

Children learn by example, where are your kids getting theirs?

[geniph]

192. Well put, aasleka, and Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Nikia]

53. My father blames television

What makes television even worse today is that there are more commercials and less programming. If there is a commercial every five minutes, the child who frequently watches television will have an attention span around that long.

[KansDem]

161. I've thought about this too.

If there is a commercial every five minutes, the child who frequently watches television will have an attention span around that long.

We are are self-trained to tune out the commercials because we are not really interested in what their message is. We still look at them but we are not listening. I wonder if over time we do this in interpersonal communication. If we sense someone is saying something to us that we are not really interested in, we tune them out. We look at them, maybe even nod periodically, but we aren't really listening to them.

[Kutjara]

3. Conformity

Kids that, in a prior age, would have been called 'headstrong' or 'spirited' are now considered pathological. ADHD is the new catchall for rebelliousness, boredom, hormones and all the other tumults of childhood and adolescence. "My Johnny won't sit still for seven hours every day and listen to some underpaid, demotivated teacher phone it in. Please doctor, dose him up with pay-attention juice."

Now, while there are indeed people for whom inattention is a serious problem, I find it difficult to believe that ADHD has suddenly become an epidemic. Ritalin is just the latest version of Soma, the drug that the State in Huxley's Brave New World gave to worker drones to keep them focused and docile.

Mass behavior modification through medication is just another form of coercion.

[aasleka]

7. We don't need no thought control

Kids do not need drugs. They need information, supervision and role models. Engage and challenge those young minds that are working faster than ever.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

166. Just curious

Do you work with children?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. No, there is more..

something else. I have taught thousands of children since 1972. There is something going on. I don't know if it is diet, additives, pollution, TV/video games, or whatever. I currently have, out of 200 kids, at least 20 with serious psych problems. In the 70's there were about 1/10 that number. I have kids now with bipolar disorder, tourette's, aspergers, autism, ADHD....

Every classroom used to have one, maybe two "problem" kids. Now there are five and six at once. These are not just kids who don't pay attention. Some have regular meltdowns where they throw tantrums, sit in a fetal position. Some simply cannot be kept in a chair for more than ten seconds. Some have no concept that they aren't the only ones in the room.

The population I teach (gifted) makes crack babies unlikely, although I have had a couple. And I have one with fetal alcohol syndrome. We're doing everything we can for these kids, staffing them into ESE and many of them are in special classrooms, some have personal aides, etc.

I just wish I knew what is going on. I don't think it is simply that we are identifying more effectively. That might be true, but there are still way more disruptive behaviors than there used to be. And we usually prefer to ID the pathology rather than just say the kid is a stinker. But there are just way, way, too many.

[notadmblnd]

15. I think it's parental neglect.

I can't tell you how many people I know that got married had, kids.. put them in daycare for 10 hours a day until they were old enough to go to school. My own cousin has two children. They are dropped off at 7
AM and picked up after 5. They are then taken to grandmas to be babysat until the parents are done with their socializing whick by them can be sometimes 10 or 11 o'clock at night. I would say on a good day the parents are spending about 3 hours raising their kids. If that's not negelct I don't know what is.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[notadmblnd]

47. I wasn't talking about autism

I was talking about behavour problems. Autisim is something completely different and I do know a thing or two about that too. When you let strangers raise your kids, you're gonna have kids you don't know and they're not going to know you.

[bloom]

54. I don't know if you intended to respond to TallahasseeGrannie

But she said, " I have kids now with bipolar disorder, tourette's, aspergers, autism, ADHD...." and went on from there - and then you started talking about the parents.

So I didn't think that what you said really followed that.

Maybe you meant to respond the the OP? :shrug:

[Breeze54]

68. omg!!!! gheesh!

Total darkness here....... yikes!!

You haven't a clue!

http://www.healing-arts.org/children/ADHD/#Formal
The Diagnostic criteria for Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder from DSM-IV are:

Criteria A - either (1) or (2):

(1) six (or more) of the following symptoms of inattention have persisted for at least 6 months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with the child's developmental level:

1. often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in
1. school
2. work
3. other activities.
2. often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities.
3. often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.
4. often does not follow through on instructions and fails to
1. finish schoolwork
2. chores
3. duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior)
4. failure to understand instructions
5. often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities
6. often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort (such as schoolwork or homework)
7. often loses things necessary for tasks or activities
(e.g., toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools)
8. is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli
9. is often forgetful in daily activities

[JuniperLea]

165. Um... I had nearly all of those symptoms

Come to find out I had an IQ in the 98th percentile. I wasn't being challenged and I was frustrated, bored and nasty-mouthed. I routinely cussed out teachers and corrected them. I spent a lot of time in the office. The school principal told my folks I needed medication. They took me to the doctor, who told them I needed medication like I needed a hole in the head.

I was put into "enrichment classes" in elementary school and that took care of that... until I hit high school and the teachers were dumber and needed my corrections more often:) There were a few really great teachers there who helped me out a lot. My senior year I opted for a self-paced class situation and completed the entire 12th grade curriculum in six weeks, took the GED and went on to college.

I think those symptom lists are a bunch of bull-pucky, from personal experience.

[ktlyon]

51. mercury in the vaccinations?

we put it in for many years and these kids are going through the school system now

[moc]

61. Nope, sorry. No scientific evidence to support this. Furthermore,

in countries that removed thimerosol decades ago, the secular trends in dx are the same as in the U.S.

[bloom]

159. Actually - it hasn't been proven

that it does NOT play a role in some cases.

[Finder]

35. I agree, neglect is the top factor...

and all the others factors like nutrition, sleep, discipline are connected to that neglect.

Sad thing is most of these parents do not realize they are neglecting their children since that is all they know from either their own upbringing or by comparing to their contemporaries.

New moms today are given formula and pacifiers for their babies upon leaving the hospital...when the kids are older they are given snacks, fast food and video games or the the tv remote to "pacify".

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[IndyJones]

90. My nephew was "diagnosed" by teachers to have ADHD and

my sister was pressured to give her son meds for it.

Finally found a great doctor and she changed his diet and routine and he suddenly no longer has ADHD.

I think what people are trying to say is that often times, the symptoms are treated without looking at the whole picture of diet, environment, etc. IMO, plenty of kids fall into the same category as my nephew. My sister still kicks herself for not finding a better doctor years ago who was interested in trying to resolve the issues, rather than medicate the symptoms.

[Mr_Spock]

131. Would you allow for other causes of these issues?

Read http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1123283&mesg_id=1136811

We tried everything - what is your suggestion doctor DUer?

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

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[Mr_Spock]

149. I "believe" that they are perhaps overprescribed, BUT

it is not possible for me to be totally objective in these types of posts. We tried everything else, I am sure there are others who do not - that's a shame if it's true. Problem is people make such broad-ranging statements about kids taking Ritalin that if you read three posts from three different people, you would have to decide that no child should be taking this drug and that I am an abusive, lazy stupid parent who only cares about how my child affects me. Read some more posts and tell me that there isn't a LOT of prejudice against people who have been backed into this corner - through no fault of their own. I though liberals were compassionate. :(

[Yollam]

151. Huh? Sorry, I'm not that easily swayed by posts on a forum.

And that's sad if anyone is. This is a complicated issue. I would hope nobody is making up their mind based on just this thread. Anyone who has a kid that they think may have ADHD should research all the pro and con literature out there and make up their own minds.

And I don't think parents who give their kids Ritalin are all lazy, abusive or stupid. The final responsibility has to lie with the doctors who are finally responsible for the decision for whether or not to prescribe meds in the first place.

Ideally, I'd like to see the requirements for dispensing ADHD drugs set quite a bit higher, so that "kids who just have a little trouble focusing" do not get put on drugs. I'm pretty sure that no matter how strict the criteria were, your daughter would qualify, as her ADHD/Asperger's was clearly disrupting her whole life.

[Finder]

173. I am sure it puts you on the defensive, as well...

but honestly, I think people are concerned--not so much prejudiced.

[Mr_Spock]

186. I wish I could discern the "concern" within the seemingly harsh rhetoric

It's one of those "until you walk a mile in my shoes" issues for me.

Not only does my daughter have ADHD & Aspergers, but I have Aspergers as well and I am very angry that my condition was ignored as it was not even known about when I was a child - I was just a "freak".

What I would have given to know that this "syndrome" had a name and oh how I would have loved to have had a choice of some sort of medication - anything to relieve the constant emotional pain & depression I suffered through as a child. Many people see seemingly normal children & wonder why on earth someone would be medicating them - not realizing that the medication is what gives them the "normal" appearance. Think about that for a minute before you or anybody else reading this judges another person.

[Finder]

187. Well I am glad Einstein was not medicated...

and wish that society would not be so harsh on those who behave differently.

[Mr_Spock]

189. If you're not an Einstein, should you be kicked to the gutter until society

adapts? (which you know it NEVER will - especially with the intolerant RW bigots running our government).

How many people shall we kick to the gutter so we can occasionally have an Einstein who shines through?

BTW, are you saying that medication makes people stupid? Please answer this.

[Finder]

193. Doesn't make people stupid...

but does not encourage creativity, curiosity, and spontaneity that leads to progress.

[Mr_Spock]

196. Really? Which medications do that?

Since you have stated that medications stifle creativity, curiousity & sponteneity - please list every medication made in this country and all of the factual data/studies to back up your statement.

I know it'll take days to complile all of this information, but I'm a patient man.

[sam sarrha]

182. Diagnosed by.. ... "TEACHERs... that is illegal.. criminal, DANGEROUS.!!!

[Mr_Spock]

130. HOW DARE YOU !!!!

You should think twice before spreading such vile misrepresentations!!

God, as much work as we've done looking into what caused our daughters issues, to read this makes me think there is no hope in this world.

Elitist bigots are everywhere!!!

[SoCalDemGrrl]

144. In most cases I strongly disagree... from personal experience

We were/are attentive parents and waited until we both were in our late 20's to have children and had a son. I stayed home with him as an infant, he was breast fed, then provided an extremely healthy diet, lots of books and hands-on parenting, but by the time he reached the 1st grade we knew something wasn't right. He had attention problems and they only got worse until by the 4th grade teachers were asking us to have him tested. We finally took him to UCLA and spent a small fortune having him tested and the result was ADHD. Despite being VERY anti-drug/pharma, we put him on the lowest dose of Ritalin and the results were amazing.

The upshot is - he excelled in High School, became a National Finalist in Lincoln Douglas Debates and attended a very well respected liberal arts college where he graduated in only 3 1/2 years!!

So, in my opinion I believe the increase in the cases of ADHD and similar conditions is the result of environmental factors IN MOST CASES NOT BAD PARENTING.

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE SO CRITICAL OF PARENTS WHO MUST RESORT TO MEDICATING OUR CHILDREN, PLEASE - UNTIL YOU HAVE WALKED IN OUR SHOES, BE MORE UNDERSTANDING. I DON'T BELIEVE THERE ARE MANY PARENTS WHO CAVALIERLY GIVE THESE MEDICATIONS TO THEIR CHILDREN. MOST OF US CONSIDER ALL OPTIONS BEFORE RESORTING TO THEM. ALSO KEEP IN MIND THAT MANY OF THESE CHILDREN HAVE VERY LOW SELF ESTEEM AFTER YEARS OF BEING RIDICULED FOR THEIR ATTENTION PROBLEMS AND THIS CAN LEAD TO SUICIDE IF THE PROBLEMS ARE NOT ADDRESSED.

[sam sarrha]

183. many were and still are missdiagnosed and have Aspergers Syndrome

[Breeze54]

63. Read more....spout less!

It's B-I-O-L-O-G-I-C-A-L!!!!!!

ADHD is not new, though our understanding of the disorder is still developing.
Medical science first noticed children exhibiting inattentiveness, impulsivity,
and hyperactivity in 1902.

Since that time, the disorder has been given numerous names, including
Minimal Brain Dysfunction or Minimal Brain Damage, and Hyperkinesis,
The Hyperkinetic Reaction of Childhood or Hyperactivity.In 1980, the diagnosis of
Attention Deficit Disorder was formally recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual,
3rd edition (DSM III),
the official diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association (APA).

It is estimated that ADHD affects 3-5% of the school-age population,
which means as many as 3.5 million children.

Persons with ADHD have an unusually low rate of activity in brain areas
responsible for motor control and attentiveness.

http://www.healing-arts.org/children/ADHD/

[Mr_Spock]

132. Good luck - you're talking to an elitist DU "doctor" who knows everything

He is God and he knows everything about our children - even though he has never met them.

I have an open offer to anyone who wants to meet me and my daughter and then spout their ignorant elitist bullshit - just let me know.

[lumberjack_jeff]

116. That is a gross oversimplification

I'm a stay-at-home dad with three sons. The youngest is diagnosed high-functioning autism, the middle one was diagnosed ADHD, but his behavior is poor enough that we're wondering if it was really ASD. The eldest was diagnosed ADHD in grade school, and although he's mostly outgrown the bad behavior, his grades still suffer. We don't have TV, we live in the country with plenty of appropriate activities, and I spend just about all of their non-school waking hours with them.

I take offense at self-righteous speculation on the cause of their behavior.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

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[Arkansas Granny]

19. You're exactly right, Grannie, there is more. I don't claim to have

any hard and fast answers, but my personal observations after years of raising children and being around other people and their children leads me to believe that there is a fundamental difference in how children are being raised in recent years.

For one thing, there is the decrease in the level of physical activity. Even in neighborhoods where many school aged children live you see very few of them playing outside. There may be several factors at work here including working parents, security concerns or the ease of entertaining them with TV and video games.

Another factor, IMO, is diet. Fast food, snacks and soft drinks are regular components of most children's diets. With all of the sugar and additives, this is bound to have an effect on them, especially when coupled with the lack of activity. It also contributes to the increase of child obesity that we are seeing.

A big factor seems to be a lack of discipline. I have seen so many children who are not taught any manners or respect for the feelings or belongings of others. These are lessons that need to be taught from infancy and can't be left until these kids start school and expect teachers to sort it all out.

Last, but not least, is something that has bothered me since my own children were small and that is the level of violence that they are subjected to on TV, video games and movies. They have become so desensitized to violence that it almost seems like normal behavior to them.

It appears to be a problem throughout our whole society and I don't know the answers. Parenting skills may be at the heart of it, but it seems to be that entire communities will need to get involved to find solutions. Our children are our most valuable asset and it would definitely be worth the time and effort. I truly believe that time is the most valuable currency we can spend on our children.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but there have to be better solutions for dealing with this problem than routinely putting children on drugs to alter their behavior.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

99. Kids have always had high energy levels

Young creatures always do (e.g. puppies versus older dogs).

When I was a kid, everyone walked to school. The hyper kids ran to school. We had recess for 15 minutes twice a day. After school, we ran around outside, playing made-up games.

The kids I see now are over-scheduled. They're driven (strapped into their seat) from one organized activity to another. Their homes are chaotic because the parents both work full-time jobs and weekends are not for relaxation but for frantic catching up. The parents are exhausted. The kids are exhausted.

I probably would have been diagnosed as abnormal today. I was fidgety, had a mind that raced, couldn't get to sleep easily, and coud get completely lost in reading or daydreaming.

However, I walked five blocks to school in the morning, five blocks back for lunch, five blocks back to school, five blocks home at the end of the day. We had two 15-minute recess periods. After school, I went to Girl Scouts once a week and had to practice the piano 30 miinutes a day (torture for me, though I loved the music). We got up at 7AM to go to school, but my brothers and I were expected to be in bed by 8PM while we were in grade school, although we could read till we were sleepy (that was the only way I could settle down).

On top of that, my parents made it clear that if I misbehaved in school, it would be my fault, not the teacher's, and that boredom was not an excuse for misbehavior. I got through K-12 with one punishment--in kindergarten.

So what were the differences? I got enough exercise, I was well-rested, not over-scheduled, and I was taught proper behavior, with the parents reinforcing the school's behavioral standards.

I look at today's kids, and I feel sorry for them. Strapped into car seats, over-scheduled because of having to keep up with some imaginary Joneses for suburban status, set in front of the TV or video games to stay out of their parents' hair, and cursed with parents who believe that if the teacher reprimands them, it is automatically because the teacher is mean or incompetent. (Sometimes the teacher is mean or incompetent--some DU parents have related horror stories--but more often than not, the kid has never been taught how to behave.)

[JuniperLea]

169. I've run across that a lot

Sometimes people will say stuff like, oh, he/she is really hyper! And I think to myself, hmmm... that kid is being a kid.

I think most kids are just being kids, some kids have food allergies, and some have a hereditary or biological reason for their behavior. I also think people should get multiple opinions from various professionals before doing anything.

But most of all, I think it would be utterly foolish to blindly follow the advise given on a message board or some website!

An orange is round and orange... so is the sun...

[RagingInMiami]

39. I agree with you

The environment is causing a lot of it. Just look at the rise in autism since the early 1970s. And I have ADHD, and I know for a fact that certain foods, especially food colorings, can make my symptoms worse.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

91. Yep, I'm ADD, too and food affects me.

I was never medicated until I was about 20 and I chose to medicate myself. Now food affects me less, but when I was a little kid, if I ate the foods that ADD kids shouldn't eat, according to the holistic books, you would be dealing with a crazy kid for the next 4-6 hours.

[Mr_Spock]

134. Yep, my daughter knows by "feel" what not to eat any more.

I'm very proud of how she has become aware, at 10 years old, of how certain foods drive her off the deep end and so she avoids them.

OTOH, she shakes badly & can't control herself very well even on the best diet - people here who think all things are controlled by diet are living in a very closed in world. There are many things that effect brain chemistry - including heredity at the forefront in my families experience.

[Yollam]

141. Your daughter shakes badly...

...so why on earth would you think that she is who we are talking about when referring to the overprescription of ADHD drugs? Most of these kids have only the mildest of "symptoms". Can't you see that people are NOT talking about you or your daughter here?

[Mr_Spock]

147. So we are supposed to know exactly who is designer drug kid and who isn't

based on your "feelings" on who should or shouldn't be on medication?

I just don't think people should even try to make this judgement for other people - you just can't know all the facts.

You'd hardly know my kid has issues when she's taking her meds - do you see where you may not be able to tell from what we "let" you see?

I am VERY protective of my child when it comes to "labeling" her. That's for me to do and nobody else - and only to make a point to those who would further stigmatize her.

[RagingInMiami]

156. That's very impressive

For me, the foods that I need to avoid are the ones I enjoy the most. Hot dogs, pepperoni pizza, etc.

Yes, depending on the severity of the ADHD, food can only control so much. And the same goes for medication. There is no magic bullet. It's an everyday struggle.

[JuniperLea]

167. That's wonderful!

We should all be so in-tune with ourselves.

Your daughter is fortunate to have such a caring and involved father. All kids need that regardless of the presence or absence of some special condition.

[Mr_Spock]

184. She is very happy knowing that her dad can "relate" to her issues

It was very comforting for me to discover that, while trying to figure out what my daughters "issues" were, that I too had Aspergers syndrome. Knowing that we have a special bond and that somebody can relate to her special "sensitivities" makes her very happy. It makes me very happy too. I only wish that such knowledge existed in the 60's and 70's when I grew up as a "Mr Spock" - in many ways written off as a "nerd". Probably more of a response than you expected I'm sure - it's an interesting existence not being burdened by many of the social norms that hold other people down :D Anyway, the shared "issue" between us has helped as she is more aware that she is indeed different and is better able to focus on fitting in where it seems like it is an advantage to do so. I don't have ADHD so she is learning how to deal with that on her own - she also chooses to take Ritalin when given a choice as she finds it too difficult to control her body without it. Other than appetite loss, we have found no other noticeable side effects (for those who key on Ritalin as a "bad" drug).

[JuniperLea]

203. Fundamental flaw in society's way of thinking

Your post drove this home to me. I'm quite disturbed that so many people think that "different" is "bad". It's been my experience that many people with ADHD are brilliant and often times find an area of study that grabs their attention to the degree that they excel to a surprising level in that area. We can only benefit from diversity in people. It's not easy being "different". My childhood was miserable on certain levels because I was different. Today, I'm happy for the difference, yet I'm razzed about it all the time. It's not "cool" to be a nerd, still, I guess.


I think there has been a lot of over-prescribing of Ritalin. If a person really needs it, they see the benefit. If they don't need it, it tends to make the "problem" worse. I have twin cousins who fit that category. Their doctor kept upping the amount of Ritalin trying to get a better effect and it only exacerbated their problems. I have a friend with a boy who has ADHD and he is fully aware how much better he feels when he takes his medicine. He is comfortable with his situation to the point where he can joke about it. He told me once that he saw a very hyper kid who reminded him of himself without medication. From the mouths of babes. He's a brilliant kid. He's totally into Karate... I think he's found his niche, his area of interest. He ranked number three out of 100 in a recent competition.

Haha! Ok, now my response was more than expected:) I guess we are even!

[1monster]

43. See my post number 17...

[Triana]

139. Could be all of it, Gran...

..diet and additives, pollution, chemicals, TV/Video games as babysitters, OD'ing on soda pop and sugar...I've heard others who care(d) for or educated kids say the same. Something's wrong. Just nobody can quite put their finger on it.

[Yupster]

36. There used to be more run around time

during the school day to help kids who had trouble sitting so much. Now they've reduced PE, especially the running and chasing parts of it and curtailed recess. In fact many places you can't even run outside anymore even if there is recess.

Then surprise, those kids are having more trouble keeping in their seats.

At least we can drug them up, and maybe in 20 years when we know all the side effects, we can see how much damage we've done to a whole generation of boys.

[OzarkDem]

67. Agree, add to it the sugary snacks in school

and it makes things even worse.

[Missy Vixen]

48. Do you actually know any teachers?

>and listen to some underpaid, demotivated teacher phone it in.<

If you are convinced that teachers are "demotivated" and "phoning it in" -- please. Enroll in your state college. Get your fifth year. Take a job in which you are urged to be educator, doctor, psychologist, learning disorder specialist, counselor, on and on and on, most likely at a starting salary of less than $30K per year. Be sure and enjoy the lack of appreciation or even common courtesy, the lack of participation from parents who scream at you because YOU are responsible for their child's education -- God forbid they pick up a book and help with the homework, after all, it's YOUR JOB, (and, remember, the other 30+ kids in the class deserve that individual attention as well) the lack of cash when you're taking money out of your household budget to pay for classroom supplies.

Don't forget that you'll spend most of the classroom day "teaching to the test" as we all suffer under *'s asinine NCLB.

We know a lot of teachers. I wouldn't call any of them "demotivated" or "phoning it in". They work very hard for the pittance they get paid, and put up with an unbelievable amount of abuse from those who think that their best just isn't good enough. Of course, the latter don't have the guts to get into the classrooms themselves.

I submit that anyone who remains teaching in the public school system does it because they love their jobs and want to make a difference.

Julie

[Lib Grrrrl]

59. Well, I Can Tell You There Were A Couple Of Standout Teachers Who REALLY

made a difference in my life. To this day I remember them. i'm even in frequent communication with two of them to this very day...they had that much of a positive influence in my life. A third is, unfortunately, no longer living.

Dr. Tom Vanatta, Susan Barnard, Jim MacEnelly, and Mary Price...thank you all so much for the difference you guys made in my life! I salute those teachers who really DO make a difference. Who else here has a special teacher that they remember, to this day....who had a special influence, positively, in their lives?

We spend a lot of time ragging on teachers, and some deserve that ragging...and parents deserve their share...but how often are we really appreciative of those wonderful, dedicated educators who truly made a positive impact in our lives?

I would love to see some sort of National Teachers' Week...where we honor and remember those special teachers. And, no, I am not a teacher.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. A SOMA a day keeps the kiddies at bay

and lets lazy parents go out and play
Double the dose and he'll be OK
I wonder what's good on the soaps today.

[izzie]

6. That was funny. I went to school first grade 1939 and

Kids were just as crazy then as now. The real thing I see as different is we were all pushed out the door to run it off twice a day and had to work to get to school and back. All that bike riding and walking and fighting in the school yard had to have some results. We were more worn out when we were in class.Ever see kids out playing after school any more? Yar the town had nuts in it and we all knew who they were and knew to say away from them.As long as I got home took off my school clothing and put on play stuff I could stay out until the street lights came on and I had to take my dog with me. Course people think I am crazy to think this way but so be it. If we needed pills we sure did not get them.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. This is an excellent

point. My kids get NO activity at all some days. They have 45 mins of PE three days a week. No recess, no free play EVER. And many are in after school programs until 6.

Actually, today it's the teachers who could benefit from a few tokes with the morning coffee.

[phylny]

93. When we lived in Indiana, our kids got THREE recesses a day

from first to third grade, then two for fourth, and one for fifth. This was in addition to PE every day. Granted, two of the recesses were for ten minutes, and the third for 15 or 20 minutes.

Oh, and the class sizes were mandated and phenomenal. In Kindergarten, no more than 16, in first grade 17, and in second grade 18 to a class.

My two oldest girls got a terrific start in elementary school, and LOVED the time to go outside and run around. The only time they weren't outside was if the windchill was beloe 20, or the weather was horrendous. Other than that, outside you go.

[0007]

11. First grade for me was in 1937. Much of what you say is sure hits home.

There wasn't any pills that I can think of back then it was always Castor Oil. It seems everyone went through the childhood diseases. The mumps, scarlet fever, whooping cough, german measles, the red measles, and the other kind of measles, chicken pox, diphtheria, and of course everyone was on the look out for polio in those days.

Yes three sets of clothing. School clothes, play clothes, and Sunday clothes.

[Mugu]

113. You wrote what I was thinking.

My bike was my transportation to and from school and during recess we were encouraged to run ourselves half to death. When we got home there were no video games, there were bike races, foot races, high jump, etc.

First grade was 1959.

[TahitiNut]

133. Exactly. First grade for me was 1948. Same then.

It was a half-mile to elementary school and almost a mile to junior high and high school. No bus until 12th grade. It was walk or bike it. Winter was time for shoveling snow and staying out until my ass was wet and frost-bitten. All the rest of the time was run and wrestle 'til I dropped from exhaustion. The classrooms were usually too warm (I never figured out why teachers were always wearing sweaters) and the challenge was keeping awake.

[Mr_Spock]

138. My kids have so many activities it's not funny

They play outside, karate, dancing, instrument, recess at school. I wish it was enough to stop the terrible shaking and uncontrollable behavior that my daughter has to suffer with every day. Did you threaten to kill yourself at age 7? Her diagnosis is ADHD & Aspergers- without medication she might haved killed herself. Are we doing wrong or is it better to let your child suffer so as not to upset the sensibilities of the "normal" people who have no idea what a real physical/emotional illness feels like.

[Xithras]

170. My kids school wanted my son on Ritalin.

Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

I was diagnosed with ADD a few years back, and after talking to the doctor a bit realized that I'd probably had it my entire life. Did it make life difficult? Sure, but it also made me more imaginative and creative, and set paths for my life that are still sustaining me today. ADD means that a child has trouble paying attention to one thing for a long period, but the flipside of that is that ADD kids tend to focus on many MORE things while their peers are still focused on the first. They tend to be more aware of what's going on around them, and more curious about the things they're exposed to.

The vast majority of the "creative geniuses" from history would have been labeled ADD and drugged if they were alive today. I refuse to rob my child of the same creative impulse that I had as a child, and consign him to being one of the obedient masses.

[bloom]

176. Everybody needs to decide

at what point the problems become too great.

I have chosen not to take anti-depressants for the reason you mentioned - while they "worked" to a point - they also caused me to lose focus.

I decided I it wasn't worth it.

My daughter, however, has more severe symptoms with her Asperger's et. al. and she is not really functional without it. She tried going off of it for awhile - because she doesn't like drugs either (who does?) - but it just wasn't working out.

There are some people who wouldn't be "creative geniuses" - they would be dead from suicide first - before anyone knew about them.

[SmokingJacket]

204. No, you're absolutely right.

I have two little boys who need a couple hours of physical activity a day or they go bananas -- literally trying to climb the walls of the house and jump off the furniture. I don't let them play video games and make them go outside instead. Sometimes -- often -- they're the only kids playing outside in the whole neighborhood.

[Massacure]

12. Call me nit picky, but shouldn't your last sentence read:

What HAVE changed are the adults? Adults is plural, so have should be too...

[Igel]

37. Two points.

You can get wh-word nouns in the plural as subjects only when they're relatives ("which" acts like an adjective). "I don't know who have gone to the beach"? "What are the problems?" is, in essence, "The problems are what?"--'what' isn't the subject, and the question word and the subject are inverted. Some forms of American English allow that "The problems are what?" as an echo question or with emphatic intonation. Note that 'to be' doesn't ever have do-support, so it's probably that hardest verb to deal with. Compare 'what do the problems consist of?' "What have changed?" is just ill-formed.

But that's partially beside the point. The sentence isn't a question, so there's no question word to move to the front of the sentence, with simultaneous subject-verb inversion. The subject of "What has changed is the adults" is "what has changed". It's a clausal subject, parallel with "the thing that has changed is the adults," and you'd never assume 'adults' is the subject of 'is' or 'changed' in that sentence: "The thing that have changed are the adults." I guess 'free relative' is the going term of art for "what has changed" since it's a relative clause without a noun heading the clause. "What has changed turns out to be the adults" is grammatical, as well, with "What has changed turn out to be the adults" faring poorly.

The bit that's posited as known (after all, something has changed) and is having meaning attributed to it is 'what has changed'; the only give-away is the word order and verb agreement :-) You can flip the poster's around and it's grammatical with 'are' because the two things are asserted to be equivalent, a canonical copula, the difference being one of emphasis: "The adults are what has changed". "The adults turn out to be what has changed" is fine (with "the adults turn out to be what have changed" still being bad, IMHO).

[jmowreader]

44. I was considering "the youth" and "the adults" to be singularities

Imagine taking two boxes and putting youths in one, adults in another.

In this scenario, "the youth" would be one thing, not the many things that are the contents of the box. Same deal with "the adults."

Either way...the problem still remains; we don't give the kids any unstructured time outside to burn off energy, cut back on gym class, turn off all the classes that make going to school enjoyable (such as art, music, metal shop...) because they cut into NCLB test prep time, feed them chemical-rich, hormone-laden, nutrient-poor meals, put enough computer horsepower in their rooms to run an atom smasher and load it with first-person shooters, then tell them they can't smoke cigarettes, they can't smoke pot, they can't drink, they can't screw, they can't pick out their own clothes, they can't participate in any after-school social activity that isn't planned at least as well as the Normandy Invasion...and then, when they act up, we use powerful psychotropics to drug them into submission.

And they wonder why the youth of this nation are falling behind. Sheesh!

[jarab]

13. The adults have changed (agreed) ...

The parents and teachers.
Each group has some responsibility for doping the kids, or the need to do so.
jmo
...O...

[Lib Grrrrl]

14. Well, For Me...

First grade was 1977. And by that time, the Ritalin had begun to flow. I only stayed off it, myself, because my parents absolutely refused to allow the school to put me on it!

I was bored to tears at school, because I already KNEW EVERYTHING the teacher was trying to teach! It never occurred to me I was a GENIUS...no, to my view, everyone else was a dummy, and I was bored. So I caused trouble. Lots of it. And the school's response? Worst possible. they stuck me in with a bunch of slow learners and under-achievers...exactly the opposite of what I actually needed!

Needless to say, getting stuck in with actual stupids only made me even crazier...and led to even more acting out. I mean, it never occurred to me that kids didn't know the multiplication tables to 12...and that kids could not read a newspaper...before going to kindergarten...because I COULD!!

It never occurred to me that normal third-graders did not understand algebraic concepts, because I DID!!

what had me so angered and pissed off is that they were boring my ass off, and holding me back, because everyone else around me was stupid. That, at least, was my view...at that age. worse, they were trying to STEAL my intelligence, and make ME stupid, like the rest of them!!

School was a goddamn cookie-cutter factory! I wasn't being allowed to achieve MY potential, because I was too far ahead of everyone else.

So, they wanted to dope me up so I'd sit there, bored...and learn nothing at all.

It was not until the school tried to literally kick me out, and have me placed in the Brown Schools...and my parents appealed that decision to the Illinois Supreme Court, based on Public Law 94-142 concerning education of emotionally handicapped children (such as I was labelled) that they FINALLY came up with the right answer for dealing with me....

I ended up in a residential school. I lived there, all year round, going home only for vacations and holidays. This was a lab school attached to the University of Chicago...and here, gifted children with emotional problems...were educated at their own pace! If what you could handle was fifth-grade reading, college-level math...then that is what they gave you. You were constantly challenged...you were not ALLOWED to be bored!

Well, this did the trick for me. I actually accumulated college and high-school credit while in this school, graduating at the age of fourteen.
At that point, my parents moved to Texas. I went with them. Given as I already had the credits to graduate high-school, I was given a choice to go and attend, or not, actual high school. I chose to attend, mostly for the social experience.

For me, high school was a breeze, and mostly review...I never even TRIED and I just barely missed the top 15 percent of my graduating class. If I'd bothered to apply myself at all, I would probably have been valedictorian. But I was having other problems no one else knew about at the time...and spent most of my high school years both drunk and stoned out of my mind.

I'm happy to say that I'm now clean for 14 years, and only drink very rarely...I perhaps have three alcoholic drinks in any given month, anymore.

The point of all this?? I'm betting that many of your Ritalin kids now are bored, because they are not being challenged enough. Education is being dumbed down to the point where only the slowest, most underachieving kids are learning anything at all, while the rest of the class is bored off their ass. All part of NCLB.

Problem with it is...everyone ELSE gets left behind, and their needs not addressed, because of the one or two slow learners. If you ask me, they'd do well to take the slow learners out...and give them the individual attention THEY need to do better...and, meanwhile, quit holding back the rest of the class to accomodate the slow learners. You'd have fewer on ritalin this way, I guarantee it...because you'd have fewer BORED KIDS!! Most troublemakers in school are the way they are because they are BORED.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

16. thanks for this. And congrats.

I was bored to tears in school. Debating the teachers and correcting them didn't help. Of course, my first 5 yrs were in a christian school. which explains my disdain for all religions and belief systems. Faith kills. Faith kills brain cells, curiosity, humanity.

[Lib Grrrrl]

20. Your Welcome - And PLEASE Read This...

although I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of religion and faith.

Now, let me qualify that statement.

Faith can enrich your life, it can give you hope in a time of hopelessness, I have seen true faith work miracles in the lives of others...most specifically, my mom. After my dad's death, I spent a year and a half constantly talking my mom down from suicide. She then became a Christian, found some faith, and changed in positive ways I'd not have thought possible.

Now, here is where I diverge...

Personally, I consider myself to be a Unitarian Christian. I do my best to follow the teachings of Jesus...I truly believe he was a remarkable man.

The problem is...most of his followers are too caught up in the "rules and regulations" to actually notice His teachings of universal love, tolerance, acceptance, joy, peace, mercy, forgiveness...

For most Christians...you can get a fair sample of their God (or their vision of God) by reading Nathaniel Hawthorne.

What I would say is...ORTHODOX FAITH kills. ORTHODOX, BLIND, UNQUESTIONING FAITH kills brain cells, curiousity, and humanity. BUT, that said, there is value in religion, and in faith...if you learn to pick out the bits that are actually beneficial to humanity.

Gandhi, for example, was a very spiritual man. You don't think faith killed HIS braid cells, curiousity, or humanity, do you? Because he did not ABUSE religion...or use it to abuse others...as so many so-called faithful do nowadays.

Most seem to use "faith" and, more specifically, Christianity...to enforce their already-held beliefs, their bigotry and their prejudices...use it as an emotional crutch, because they do not with to think, or to change. They thus use that religion as an excuse for their shitty behavior towards enemies of their own choosing. In many ways, they are the modern-day equivalent of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

I'm sorry you have had such a bitter experience with religion as to completely turn from all spirituality, even that which can be beneficial. Faith, used properly, and balanced properly can enrich your life, and can give you untold wisdom, and act as a guide on how to live a moral, ethical life.

In my own experience...and speaking as a Unitarian who is exposed to literally almost every faith and belief system known to mankind...I can say that all faiths, and all religions...do have wisdom to offer, and they do all contain aspects which many would do well to apply to their own lives. Provided it does not create a tunnel-vision effect by which everything else is blocked out.

All religion is basically parables and stories, bits of prophecy, and bits of wisdom...wrapped up in a bunch of mysticism, guesswork, and mythology. The trick is to examine the various religions...and take from each that which works in your own life, and leave that which does not. which is the Unitarian approach to matters of spirituality.

We recognize, of course, that different people will choose different things...we respect all people's individual spiritual path to their own personal enlightenment, and to the betterment of individuals...and society as a whole. We do not sneer at others' choices, even when those choices do not match our own. We have no central creed, or belief system. The closest we come to having such is our own Seven Principles, and our six Living Traditions.

I believe that if more people followed these ideals we have set forth as a guideline to how best to live their lives, we would have a much nicer world. I recommend you check this out at the following web site... http://www.uua.org

Here, for your quick reference, are our Seven Principles (remember that these are guidelines, and not an actual creed for our faith...and that each of us hold some of these priciples as more important to our individual spirituality than others)

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person

* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations

* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations.

* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning.

* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and society at large.

* The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all.

* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

And here are our six Living Traditions....

The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:

* Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;

* Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;

* Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;

* Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;

* Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.

* Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

I hope that, perhaps my words will inspire you to check further into the Unitarian Church. For us, individual spirituality is an essetial part of our lives, however, we do not try to force it upon others (although I believe we should, since the world would be much better if all lived by these principles and traditions) nor do we use it to abuse others, or to oppress others who do not share our value/belief system.

In most UU congregations, you can find people who come from many different faith backgrounds, from secular humanist, to Wiccan, to Jewish and Christian, to Muslim, to just about any other faith you can think of. We all peacefully co-exist within the same church, each with our own individual ideas, faiths, and beliefs. We seek to enrich ourselves and others. We take from each that which works in our own lives....and we leave behind that which does not.

Similarly, we as a country, would do well to examine other cultures...and incorporate into our own the best that each culture has to offer...and leave behind that which does not enrich our lives and raise our spirits.

The Unitarian church is unique in that we appeal to emotion as well as to intellect...and we encourage free-thinking, and questioning. Most religions do not encourage questioning...in fact, most religions have an unwritten Commandement: "Thou shalt not question!" It is in this, that most religions fail to be what they could be...which is, a source of joy, peace, hope, and enlightenment for the multitudes.

Now...I tell you that, as a transgendered woman myself...I have had more than my share of being abused by religion, and the Bible...and more specifically, by Christians...or, rather...so-called Christians. so much so that I lost the faith for a long time. I was raised Roman Catholic...and lost the faith by age fourteen...due to the disparity I percieved in the church between words and actions. I became apathetic towards religion. Then, when I began to be abused by Bible-thumping so-called Christians...my apathy metamorphosized into outright hatred and denial of faith. I remained such for ten years, until I discovered the Unitarian Church.

I have since come full circle, and I have faith...I believe Jesus to have been a remarkable man, a man of much wisdom, love, compassion, and mercy. I believe He has the potential to enrich many people's lives. His words, His teachings, and His life can provide for all of us, an example of how best to live. But, again, we must not engage in blind, unquestioning faith to the exclusion of science, knowledge, humanity, curiousity...we must incorporate that which is good in religion into our own lives...and leave that which destroys us as humans.

Jesus gave us nothing which destroys us as humans...it is humans misinterpretation, misuse, and outright abuse of religion that seeks to, and often does...destroy us as human beings. I am very sad for your bitter experiences, and hope that they have not forever soured you on all aspects of spirituality, because some of it can be very life-affirming, and enriching to us, as humans.

I would love to communicate with you further on this subject, if you are of an open mind, and wish to continue this conversation. Meanwhile, I wish you all the peace, joy, hope, love, and compassion you need in your life...and in the lives of those you love and cherish.

Blessed Be!!

[ChairmanAgnostic]

22. I will gladly ponder this.

However, I like what Gandhi said about religion
I like your Christ. I don't care for your Christians as they are so unlike your Christ.

[Lib Grrrrl]

27. Good.....

Did I not just say as much?? In a more wordy fashion?

Just bear in mind that some of us Christians still DO try to be like Christ. Some of us DO try to follow His teachings and his words...and try to incorporate them into our own lives...and in how we treat others.

[Kailassa]

29. True faith comes from your heart, and is the antithesis to religion.

Religion has done an excellent job of wiping out faith by trying to force idiotic beliefs down peoples' throats. If people are told they must believe that god is good, and that god will throw unbelievers into a torturing hell for eternity, then of course they will turn their backs on the whole concept of god if they stop to think about it.

I grew up in the Australian bush, and believed in god because I could feel god all around me when I was alone in the bush. And that sort of belief, coming from inside, is one I would never try to push onto other people, as I trust them to have hearts that can sense whatever truths are right for them.
As a pantheist, I was never able to be a good christian, because to me the cross was as holy as the body draped over it.

My advice to anyone who wants to become more spiritual is to relax and really enjoy all they can find that's good in the world around them. If there is a god and she created flowers, I'm sure she'd rather you enjoyed that flower than that you knelt in a church praying to her.

And perhaps she is that flower.

[kineneb]

31. another bored student checking in

I was (and am) very bright, but my genius lies in the visual/spacial world. I had a serious "attitude": if I didn't care about the subject, I simply wouldn't do the work- I got a 'D' in 10th grade English. In 9th grade, we had a battery of tests, and in the abstract reasoning portions I scored in the 99th percentile; in English the score was 60th, and math 50th. I can see things and figure out how they are shaped and put together. There really isn't a place in the academic world for that talent. So after college, I worked as an assistant to a musical instrument builder.

I have managed to get a BA in Music and finish the classes for an MA in Music History, but... I can't seem to get to writing my thesis, the whole writing thing seems to just lock me up.

Also, through most of my regular education, I was suffering from undiagnosed depression. I am sure my experience would have been different if I could have functioned at a normal level. I take anti-depressants that allow me to function at an even level.

[bloom]

34. Some of your problems

remind me of my daughter. She is exceedingly intelligent when it comes to some things, and can spot 4-leaf clovers on the ground as if they were their own color or something - it's weird - but even though she has an amazing vocabulary and grammar skills and all - she has trouble writing. Esp. under pressure.

From what I've heard - this can be associated with Asperger's syndrome. You might want to look into it anyway - if you haven't already. This is a pretty good site. http://www.grasp.org/learn.htm There are many others.

Depression can be a side effect.

[kineneb]

49. interesting

But the depression is probably hereditary. Great-grandmother committed suicide when my grandmother was 4, and Mom tends to be OCD, mostly about work. There is also some substance abuse issues on my father's side that lead me to think there is a depressive component there, too.

I used to think the problem was from my early childhood. But comparing my life to many families, I had wonderful grandparents who loved me, and treated me well.

I will look into Asperger's. My Mom is a visual person as well. She claims to have a photographic memory, and that is how she got through school. She also hates writing.

[bloom]

55. Asperger's

has a genetic component. I think it runs in my family. I had thought my daughter maybe had OCD or something like that also- but something suggested that that can be a part of Asperger's as well.

See (lower on the page):

"Autism is not Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder"

http://mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=8769&cn=20

http://mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=8763&cn=20


A lot of people can have it and manage to function one way or another - often very well - if they are in a field that is Asperger's compatible. But self-medicating is not uncommon.


Here is a quiz someone had posted - that sort of gives you an idea:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/news/page/0,12983,937443,00.html

[Mr_Spock]

128. I am sure of the genetic component to Aspergers

It was through our desire to help our daughter not feel so ostracized that I discovered that I also had Aspergers syndrome - and eventually after several fits and starts with therapists, she has an Aspergers diagnosis as well. Unfortunately she also has "the worst ADHD I've ever seen in a girl" as described by her therapist. She actually shakes so bad she has trouble performing certain fine motor tasks. But according to the "experts" here in this post her issues are merely based on boredom and/or diet and/or allergies - even though we persued all of these aspects to the Nth degree and her sister is perfectly "normal".

[Yollam]

142. Oh, I get it now, all 3 million kids on Adderal/Ritalin are YOUR DAUGHTER.

They all shake and threaten suicide and have fits, right? I can only assume that's what you're saying, since you obviously consider it impossible that any doctor anywhere would EVER prescribe ADHD meds to a kid who didn't really need it because the parents and/or Big Pharma demand it. That could never happen, right?

[bloom]

158. He didn't say that.

You're just being ridiculous.

Some people don't seem to get that there IS a huge increase in Autism Spectrum Disorders and other things that would cause people to resort to medication. Do doctors ever prescribe things when they shouldn't ? - sure. Do you know how much of the increase is warranted and what isn't ? No.


You "obviously" need a chill pill yourself.

[bleedingheart]

111. my son has Asperger's and depression and anxiety are

symptoms he has.

Imagine a 4 year old that plays chess and chatters on like an adult about very obscure topics and obsessive interests but also talks of killing himself...we lived with it for many mor years until he was diagnosed.

[Mr_Spock]

135. Wow - similar experience here.

I was stunned when my daughter threatened to run in front of a car at age 7. We finally got a diagnosis at age 10. A lot of these new diagnoses are due to therapists finally starting to understand "spectrum" disorders better.

[Breeze54]

70. Have you been tested for a Learning Disability yet?

The testing is different these days.

[kineneb]

78. no

I'm not sure that at my age (over 40) testing would serve any purpose. I try to work around my known limitations.

These days I am just trying to keep from becoming depressed again- Hubby is dealing with some really serious health issues (dialysis), and we are trying to survive on his disability payments. Life is difficult right now. Some days are better than others; thank goodness for the meds.

[Breeze54]

83. I'm sorry to hear about...

your present difficulties. I hope things get better soon.
:hug:
I only asked because it sounds like you might have a Learning Disability.
I don't think it costs very much to be tested ...not sure though.
I have a friend, late 30's, who was tested not long ago and she was confirmed
to have learning disabilities (She had thought all along that she was stupid!)
AND she was also diagnosed as ADHD! Most girl's are over-looked for both!
She's on meds now and got her GED..finally!!
And is now attempting community college!
Kudo's to her!! IMHO!!
;)

She was also 'depressed' but it turned out that she WAS depressed because she had always
felt stupid or other's made her feel that way!! She is just beaming now...from ear to ear!!!
Because now she knows "what IT is!!!"
;)

[undergroundpanther]

46. Gawd

I know what you mean ,

Your story in school read like mine.
I was bored to death in school,treated like shit at home.
I said my first words at 6 months.
At age three I knew my alphabet and could read short words.
In third grade I was reading Scientific American.

But nooo because I didn't do the boring ditto's I could fill out in my sleep,they assumed I was slow.

Nobody knew I was the way I was until I got my first psych eval in second grade. My second grade teacher hated me..Coincidentally this eval is what got me on ritalin.
And tho my intelligence was shown to be high in that eval,the school did not change how they dealt with me at all,until 4th grade where I had a cool teacher that made me advanced lesson plans I could be interested in.I loved her. It was back to the boring bullshit in 5th grade on up middle school the bullying was making me crazy...

[Nobody]

56. Your story had a happy ending

My parents were told to put me on Ritalin, and they did for a short time before my mother raised holy hell. She, being a nurse, didn't believe in medicating kids except for physical problems. Way to go Mom!

Ritalin has since been proven to dull the intellect as a long-term side effect. Mom didn't know it, but somehow she noticed. I'd always been bright, and scared the crap out of the kindergarten tacher because I could read.

Instead of telling my parents that they have a potential genius, they were told to put me in special program after special program. It didn't help that I'm an introvert. (These days, if a kid is introverted, they're almost considered terrorists in training because of all the quiet, bullied kids who lashed out with guns. You're not allowed to be introverted in Let It All Hang Out Extrovertland America. You get forced to socialize with the same kids who bully you.

I was taken out of a normal school just when I was settling in with a new crop of kids. I'm an introvert and was not friends with the entire school, but did have a couple sleepover friends. Not good enough for them. I had to instantaneously be friends with everyone the first day I walked through the door. Since that didn't happen, I needed to be yanked out and placed elsewhere with yet more new kids.

The emphasis was on teaching me social skills and forcing me to be an extrovert, not on teaching me academic lessons. When I finally got to go to a real school again, I was no longer bored. I was challenged all right. I was playing catch-up, trying to regain the grade levels I had stolen from me.

I wish I could have had your special school experience instead of the day treatment center I attended.

I salute my parents for stopping the Ritalin, for several other things that turned out to be the right thing. School psychologists bullied them into sending me to special education. I too was labeled emotionally disturbed, when the only thing "wrong" was that I was introverted, way smarter than the rest of the class, 30 pounds underweight, and had zero charisma.

Time and maturity was working its magic by seventh grade and then the shrinks stepped in to throw it to the winds.

[Lib Grrrrl]

58. Well, I Went Thru A Lot Of Bull$hit Before The "Happy Ending..."

I, too, spent years in "special education" rode the short bus to other schools way away from my own neighborhood...I was labelled emotionally disturbed, I, too, was very introverted...and bullied, I too, was very underweight, and had zero charisma, and no friends.

It got so bad that for part of third grade, I spent all day in the nurses' office, every day, with a large man sitting on my back...and I was forced to do schoolwork like that. This continued into fourth grade...finally, I broke and told my parents what had been going on. Of course they did not believe me...but they checked it out. And when they found I was telling the truth, they pulled me out of school entirely, and I finished fourth grade being home-schooled, with a tutor.

Fifth grade was when they finally sent me to that school attached to the University of Chicago...and that, only after a year-long court battle, and appeal after appeal...in the end, my case got appealed, by my parents, to the Illinois Supreme Court...and the school district broke down and agreed to pay my tuition at the school I ended up at for the next four years...where I lived year-round...saw my family only three times a year, and never for more than a month at a time.

I lived at the school...as did all the other students. We slept in dormitories, and took classes twelve months a year. There was no summer vacation. Except for the one month during the summer that they sent you home. Also, you got to go home for about a month over the Christmas holidays.

The school was only for emotionally disturbed children who also had a high degree of intelligence. Their way of appraoching these "problem children" turned out, for me, to be exactly the correct approach. What I needed was to be challenged...to go as far and as fast as I could, and not be held back so that others could "catch up!"

I ended up doing algebra and geometry in fifth grade, I also took Latin for my entire four years at the school, and was taking high-school level English/Literature courses.

As I said...in my case, I literally CHOSE to attend regular high school...and was given the option to skip it completely...but I attended more for the social experience than for any other reason.

by that time, I was dealing with other problems no-one else really knew about...specifically, my gender issues...which I had been constantly denying...leading me to turn to both alcohol and drugs in an attempt to ease my own pain and suffering.

I was only able to get off the booze and drugs after I finally faced up to my issues, at age 24, and began my eventual transition into the woman I now am today.

And the result? I'm now unemployed, for over a year...thanks to a rotten economy and discrimination - which has led to severe depression requiring medication and being assigned as being on temporary disability - all this while I attempt to learn a new skill which should enable me to work from home, and thus, solve, once and for all, the problems I face with discrimination in workplaces.

so, there is not quite yet a happy ending, but I may finally, at the age of 35, be coming to one.

[Breeze54]

72. Good for you!! I'm proud of you!!

Keep going!! You WILL succeed!!!
:hug:

[SoCalDemGrrl]

146. Where did you see that Ritalin "dulls the intellect" ??

not being disrespectful, but I have done a lot of research on the subject and have never seen this.

My son was given low doses of Ritalin for ADHD for 8 years and he actually graduated from college in only
3 1/2 years. It didn't seem to diminish his intellectual ability in any way, in fact it really helped his concentration.

This drug has been used successfully for 40+ years and when prescribed appropriately, I believe it to be
effective.

I'd love to see the data on the dulling of intellect. Can you please provide a link??

Thanks

[Breeze54]

69. So you're still "self-medicating"?

"I'm happy to say that I'm now clean for 14 years, and only drink very rarely...
I perhaps have three alcoholic drinks in any given month, anymore."

You might have been bored AND angry? Yes? Maybe??
I was reading at college 2nd year level at the age of 8, so they said.
I was also bored...
I was labeled a 'trouble maker' by "the nuns"...argh!! :rofl:
I hear what you're saying...you were 'acting out' but that's different
from the truly ADD/ADHD kids.

But being bored is only a small percentage of the wrongly diagnosed.

Believe me!!
If you have a kid who is ADD or ADHD??
You will know it!! It's quite pronounced!
And it permeates EVERY level of your lives...NOT just in school.

I know!!! I live with it daily!!!

[Lib Grrrrl]

84. Nope.

I am on anti-depressants, currently, but that is a temporary measure, and prescribed by my doctor. I have not taken illegal drugs in 14 years now...and I do still occasionally drink, but never to excess...I never even get a buzz anymore. One is usually enough for me, and I can go for months without having, or wanting, a drink.

Bored AND angry? Probably so in my case.

As for everything else, I don't have kids, and it is no longer possible for me to have them...thank God, because I never wanted them, anyway. I just plain flat don't want that kind of responsibility. Happy to take someone else's kids off them for a few hours at a time, as long as I get to send them back home!

I like kids, just don't want the responsibility...particularly, the financial burden and responsibility. It's more than I choose to bear.

[1monster]

17. Theory: We have more kids than ever who are afflicted with Autism

and Auspergers Syndromes. These syndromes have been associated with the high levels of mercury (preservatives) in the required-by-law vaccines, such as the polio, diptheria, mump-rubella-measles vaccines.

True ADD and ADHD symptoms have some similarities to Auspergers and Autism, i.e. the inability or difficulty to behave in an appropriate way.

Isn't it possible that the skyrocketing numbers of children who are truly afflicted with ADD and ADHD are also victims of mercury poisoning?

I'm not talking about the kids who are acting out due to lack of disicipline or emotional problems. It is not that difficult to separate the true ADHD child from the discipline-challenged child (although, sometimes both are present in the same child).

[kath]

75. There is NO link between autism and mercury in vaccines.

NONE.

[Breeze54]

79. Yup...The Bush Regime told us so!! n/t

[moc]

98. Yes, you are correct. There is no scientific evidence linking

thimerosol in vaccines to autism. Furthermore, as I posted above, the secular trends are similar across countries regardless of whether they eliminated thimerosol many years ago.

[1monster]

114. No link at all, hmm? I wonder where I picked up that bit of nonsense?

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=65262

5/5/2006 12:11:00 PM


To: National Desk, Health Reporter

Contact: Jamie Shor, 202-628-7772 or [email protected]

WASHINGTON, May 5 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in Atlanta today released new figures showing the alarming prevalence of autism in this country, with about 1 in 175 school aged children having an autism diagnosis. However, a review of the study by SafeMinds has found that the CDC's interpretation of their own numbers is missing half the story -- the half that says that the dramatic rise in autism in the 1990s is real and corresponds to the increased exposure to mercury from infant vaccines.

"The study, while valuable in showing that autism rates are high, also substantiated that the rate of autism has increased during the 1990s, and that the rate of autism among children born after 1992 are at epidemic proportions of 6.8-7.6 cases per thousand," said SafeMinds Executive Director Sallie Bernard. The rate of autism among children in the study born 1986-1992 were much lower, 4.1-4.6 cases per thousand, about 3/5 the rate of the children born after 1992. "The rise in autism rates for children born after1992 as compared to those born between 1986 and 1992 corresponds to increased exposures from mercury in infant vaccines. Two new mercury-containing vaccines were added to the infant schedule in 1990-1991, and it is after this time period that the rate in autism increased dramatically."

During its press conference on the study findings, the CDC tried to explain away the increase, saying autism trends could not be derived from the study and that the higher rate of autism among children born from1992 onward could be due to broadening of diagnostic criteria or to the older children losing their autism diagnosis. These excuses are disputed by SafeMinds and other autism organizations. The differences in prevalence rates between the age groups of the study are statistically significant, meaning they are unlikely to have occurred by chance, so the study does have value in understanding autism trends. There is no evidence that changes in diagnostic criteria would have effected children born 1986-1992 less than those born after 1992. Historically, only 10 percent-15 percent of autistic children later lose their diagnosis, not enough to explain the huge differences in prevalence between older and younger age groups.

"The CDC does not want to acknowledge the increase in autism because it implicates mercury in vaccines," explained Bernard. "The CDC is in charge of vaccine safety, so proof of harm from vaccines reflects poorly on them. Looking at the way they have spun these results, they have dropped the ball again in their handling of the autism epidemic."

[moc]

123. LOL! SafeMinds as a source of credible scientific information.

Yes, that's where I go when I seek credible analysis of epidemiological data, an anti-vaccine advocacy group run by folks without training in epidemiology.

No, I think I'll take the work of Dr. Eric Fombonne, the leading international expert in the epidemiology of autism, regarding secular trends in autism. An example of one of his more than 100 peer reviewed publications:

Fombonne, E. (2001). "Is there an epidemic of autism?" Pediatrics 107: 411-413.

The debate on the hypothesis of a secular increase in rates of autism would benefit from a clear recognition of the methodologic limitations of existing data. No psychiatric case register study has ever allowed for estimating and monitoring the incidence of autistic conditions over time.(n1) Cross-sectional surveys hugely differ in their case definition and case identification methods that account for large variations in prevalence estimates both over time and across areas, precluding a meaningful analysis of time trends. That rates in recent surveys are substantially higher than 30 years ago merely reflects the adoption of a much broader concept of autism, a recognition of autism among normally intelligent subjects, changes in diagnostic criteria, and an improved identification of persons with autism attributable to better services.(n1,n2) The only epidemiologic study where case definition and identification could be held constant failed to detect an increase in rates of autism in successive birth cohorts from 1972 to 1985.(n3)

<snip>

Yet, the most worrying aspect of the California report lies in the distortion of data graphically portrayed in Fig 1. The report states that Fig 1 derives from the " 1991 population of persons (7915) with autism," therefore clearly indicating the cross-sectional nature of the sample. Instead of age, the report plots year of birth on the horizontal axis thereby artificially creating the impression of a prospective data collection. The note of caution in the text (`Data points in Fig 1 do not show how many persons enter the system in a given year, but how many already in the system were born in a given year') has been obviously overlooked by most commentators. This graphical display deliberately transforms what is an age effect into what seems a cohort effect, although the latter cannot be tested with such cross-sectional data. By analogy, any sample with a marked skewed age-distribution (for example, take a survey of Army personnel) could be misleadingly portrayed by replacing age by year of birth and giving the same impression of an upward trend over time than in Fig 1 (but nobody would interpret the transformed personnel Army data as indicative of rising numbers of militaries!). The point is that, in both examples, there was no passage of time allowing inferences to be made on trends over time.

The misuse of these data by some investigators is another tribute to their poor research methodology. To date, the epidemiologic evidence for a secular increase in the incidence of PDDs is both meager and negative. (n1) We simply lack good data to test hypotheses on secular changes in the incidence of autism. Because of specific methodologic limitations, the high prevalence rates reported in recent autism surveys cannot be used to derive conclusions on this issue.(n1,n2) Prevalence data nevertheless point to the magnitude of the problem, which had clearly been underestimated in the past. But there is no need to raise false alarms on putative epidemics nor to practice poor science to draw the attention to the unmet needs of large numbers of seriously impaired children and adults. More complex monitoring systems than those currently in place are needed to address the issue of secular changes in the incidence of PDDs. Maintaining case definition and identification constant, focusing on children in the upper range of school age years, controlling for changes in the population (ie, differential migration, etc) and relying on adequate sample sizes are required for future epidemiologic efforts in this area.

Second, there are the conclusions of the Institute of Medicine:

http://www.iom.edu/?id=20155&redirect=0

Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism

Released On:
May 17, 2004 (Press Release)

This eighth and final report of the Immunization Safety Review Committee examines the hypothesis that vaccines, specifically the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and thimerosal-containing vaccines, are causally associated with autism. The committee reviewed the extant published and unpublished epidemiological studies regarding causality and studies of potential biologic mechanisms by which these immunizations might cause autism.

The committee concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism. The committee also concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism. The committee further finds that potential biological mechanisms for vaccine-induced autism that have been generated to date are theoretical only.

[kath]

124. You probably picked it up from reading "quack"-y type websites,

and you are correct when you refer to it as a "bit of nonsense". Many of us are sick to death of people who believe groups like SafeMinds (who put out the stuff in your post), an organization pre-committed to the idea that Thimerosal causes autism, and continue to ignore study after study **done by REAL scientists in *multiple* countries** and published in respected peer-reviewed journals, that show time and time again that THERE IS NO LINK. The mindset of this type is "Scientific method?? - we don't need no steenkin' scientific method! We're gonna keep on believin' what we believe NO MATTER WHAT, dammit!"

Here's a great quote by one of the bright minds at SafeMinds:
"Mark Blaxill, a director of the Safe Minds activist group in the US, said it was not surprising that Pediatrics would publish a pro-vaccine study since the journal's core readers - pediatricians - administered vaccines"
http://www.autisticsociety.org/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=58

Oh, yes, pediatricians just LOVE doing harmful things to children. In fact, it's one of the main draws of Pediatrics - never mind that it's consistently one of the two lowest-paying specialties, and that pediatricians put in more hours than docs in specialties that pay MUCH more. It's all worth it, because you get to do bad things to children, day in and day out.

SCIENCE, BAH!!!

(Sorry to the members of the "reality-based community" here - I know I'm beating a dead horse here, and I won't continue to do so.)


{on edit, crosspost with moc - I got called away from the 'puter in the middle of composing my post}

[Mr_Spock]

125. I think I agree - my childs differences appeared before vaccination

I also have Aspergers and my dad has ADD - one child has both, one child has neither.

We made so much progress in linking disease to heredity, but some people so badly want it to be linked to mercury.

It may be a combination of both, but there is no denying the heredity link with Autistic Spectrum Disorders.

I'll never say never, but I'll say heredity over mercury based on my family.

[omega minimo]

21. Poison/chemicals in the food supply causes a lot of it

:puke:

[OnionPatch]

205. I'll second you there

I truly believe that all the chemicals and poisons in the food supply are causing all sorts of medical problems and wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that there is a link to the problem these kids have.

My kid eats organic.

[Avalux]

23. Quick! Give me something to fix this!

That's how our society operates these days; we expect instant gratification and if people are told there's a pill they can take to 'cure' them of a problem, they'll take it with very little questioning or insight.

Yes, there are children who have legitimate medical conditions requiring medication, but there are a lot of children who have been misdiagnosed and mistreated for ADHD when it really does come down to the parents/teachers not wanting to put more effort towards a 'difficult' child. Just give them something to make them be quiet.

My own personal account of just this very thing happened when my daughter was in first grade. I went to my parent/teacher conference and was told by the teacher that my daughter probably had ADHD because she talked in class and had a difficult time controlling it (she was 6). The teacher then handed me a business card of a "friend" - a psychiatrist who could diagnose my daughter and get her on medication to control her behaviour.

I laughed at her and handed the card back. I then told her if she has a problem teaching first graders, she should not be a teacher anymore - if her goal was to have all the kids who were deemed 'problems' on medication so they'd sit in class quiet all day to make her life easier.

My daughter is now 20 years old and through the years learned to control her incessant talking on her own and thankfully she had other teachers who understood. She is a bright, loving young woman who still talks a lot, but that's part of her personality and there's nothing wrong with it.

[Breeze54]

73. Great but what about the kids sitting next to her?/ n/t

[Avalux]

94. Your comment is rude.

WTF??? :shrug:

[Breeze54]

95. Why?

You're saying that her incessant talking wasn't a problem.
I'm asking ..."for whom?"
:shrug:

[Avalux]

96. Were you there? No.

And I don't need to defend my decision to not medicate my child. I could elaborate on the situation, give more details about the teacher and nice little racket she had set up with her "psychiatrist friend" but I'm not going to bother, especially after reading some of your other replies in this thread.

[Breeze54]

101. Nope, I wasn't but...

... my kid might have been and you may have had an issue with that teacher in 1st grade,
but you yourself said it continued. She eventually learned to control it... :thumbsup:
But she still does it.
I'm just wondering about all the kids in class sitting near her. :shrug:
My son tells me about other kids, that never shut-up, in class and it drives him nuts.
I guess I was thinking that maybe the 1st grade teacher may have been on to something.

I didn't mention anything about you medicating your daughter.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

150. Just beacuse the teacher referred to to a psychiatrist who was a friend

doesn't mean she had a "racket" going. If I were a 1st grade teacher, I probable have
a whole dossier of people I could refer parents to including:

1. Tutor
2. Grief Counselor (when necessary)
3. Psychiatrist
4. Speech therapist
5. Physical therapist

I don't know what business you are in, but referrals to someone you respect are common
in every business.

[Pavulon]

24. My Wife is a Doctor

She is a Neurosurgery. Neurology is something she deals with a good bit. She does the occasional consult for what turns out to be ADHD. She tells most people to see a psychiatrist, they are better equipped to diagnose ADHD.

ADHD is real, just like depression.

Ritalin is a stimulant drug. It shows up as Amphetamine on a drug test.

For people with add it has a calming effect. It allows focus. If you are non add it makes you speedy.

Most kids start ritalin , now there is a new non stimulant family of drugs, when they are young. 5th graders dont self medicate.

ADHD is over diagnosed, it should be diagnosed by a psychiatrist, not a GP.

As people get older there are coping skills that are out there that can remove the need for medication.

[Breeze54]

81. Thank You!!!

"ADHD is real, just like depression."
"For people with add it has a calming effect. It allows focus.
If you are non add it makes you speedy."

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[cmd]

105. Another thank you

As a retired kindergarten teacher, I saw children who can to school at all stages of development. The last thing I wanted was to have a classroom full of children on medication. However, by the end of the year, there were usually one or two who were taking meds. Their behavior improved, but more importantly, their schoolwork improved. They were able to focus on lessons and compete in the classroom. That is the reason for medication.

I've been married for almost 34 years to a man who would have benefited from medication when he was in grade school. He often describes the frustration he experienced when he was growing up trying to stay focused on a problem and sift out unimportant details. Life would have been so much easier if ritalin had been around in those days.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

152. Thanks for your wise words!!

[lonestarnot]

25. Because parents are to damn lazy to deal consistently with behaviors and

teachers can't be bothered. Easier just to give 'em a pill.

[AwakeAtLast]

40. As a teacher, I am trying not to take offense

Most teachers I know are dedicated to students, however, when your class is loaded with 28 children who all have unique challenges, it can get a little harrowing. I have never heard one teacher in my building suggest drugs the very first time. We go through many, many interventions before that route is addressed.

BTW, we get many children who START kindergarten on Ritalin or some other ADD drug. Teachers certainly did not have a hand in that.

Teachers really can be bothered.

:hi:

[Breeze54]

76. Thank You!!!

My son's teacher's were VERY concerned and did NOT push me to a psych!!
But my school district just happened to have one on staff and I let her do some testing.
As did a few more physicians!!

I was alerted to a problem when my son was 4!!
I laughed it off also..."he's just a baby!!"; I said.

But by 3rd grade; it was out of control and the teacher's AND I were doing our best!

I decided to 'try' the meds for a short time..."just to see"...

I was worried sick about it and had put it off for a long time.

The same day he took the first pill, I got a call that he had actually finished THREE work sheets at school!!!
OMG!!!!!

AND???

He was HAPPY!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Later , that year, I switched him OFF Ritalin.
To a lesser form...synthetic type medication, which works just fine!

He now is an A/B+ HS student BUT he still has learning disabilities that are being addressed.

I'm a good mother. I love my kids. They weren't neglected.

They are LOVED!!!!!!

Unless you live with a truly ADD/ADHD child, then you haven't a clue what it's like!!

[Breeze54]

74. Total BS!! n/t

[lonestarnot]

104. blah blah blah

[Kailassa]

26. My turn to opine:

I agree with a lot that's been written on this thread. It's much too complex for anyone to have all the answers.

The points I want to make are:

1. Growing up reasonably happy and in control of oneself is not inevitable. There are certain basic requirements that need to be met for a child to mature into an independant, well ballanced adult. The problem is, none of us can be sure just what these needs are. Society has changed, so parenting has changed, and the experience of growing up is very different now to what it used to be. Things have gone wrong for chilren on the way, and we need perceptive kids and adults to share their thoughts on how a society can grow to be more secure and child friendly.

2. Kids these days get chemicals in their food in quantities that children have never had before. Most are well tested and unlikely to be a problem to most people in miniscule amounts. But the numbers of pecticides, colorings, flavorings, preservatives and other chemicals kids are exposed to is enormous, and there has never been a way to test for how they might start interacting within the human body. When the intake of these chemicals is the norm, there is no longer a control group to compare these children to, so we don't have any way to see just how much harm they could be doing.

3. Most kids go through times of being particularly difficult. In the old days, it would be accepted that little Suzie was going through a "phase", and she might get a few good talkings to or have her bottom spanked, but she was not labeled for life. These days a kid gets a life-long diagnosis and medicine that the drug company would like them to take forever. And drugs all have side effects, taking something long-term is not usually in the kid's best interests.

4. Some kids do have serious, long-term problems, and we must never frame the discussion in a way that makes parents of these children feel judged or criticised. One size never fits all, and some parents are doing the right thing by giving their children ritalin.

So, to summarize, we are driving kids crazy, we are poisoning them, and then, when they have a difficult period and we don't know what to do, we label them for life and feed them more chemicals.

[earth mom]

30. Agree to a point. Pharma Giants are the drug pushers of today

As well as people parents thought they could trust-school administrations. While the pharma giants push the drugs purely for profit, the schools push the drugs for convenience if affords them in the classroom.

Meanwhile, parents-at their wits end to solve the problem-don't or won't or don't know to take the time to find out if their child has a bio chemical reaction to the poisoned foods they are being fed. But instead they rely on those who DO NOT have their childs best interests at heart.

Big Mistake.

Medicating a child with these drugs should be a LAST RESORT. Parents who are faced with giving their child prescription drugs should try every other option available first.

[bloom]

38. Children who have Autism, Asperger's ADD, ADHD

are either born with it or - indications suggest- they have the genetic predisposition that is triggered very early in life - like by the time they are two or three. What is generally believed is that there is lower levels of glutathione which is what would rid their bodies of toxins and that may be part of a weaker immune system. Making them more sensitive to multiple vaccines, mercury, and who knows what. For some - the damage is done by the time they are born.

As far as what I did and what I fed my children - I always ate as natural of foods as I could. I avoided preservatives, colors, all of that. I was not able to avoid pesticides completely - to eat completely organically. And I used to eat tuna. And I drank the water. And I breathed the air - which was in the Ohio river valley where there were a lot of coal plants.

I have known of children whose parents gave their kids high does of sugar and who knows what and whose children were holy terrors. That isn't what Ritalin is about. I never had any children on Ritalin - but if someone's child is diagnosed with something and Ritalin does help - I surely don't blame them for trying to do whatever seems to work. If doctors were prescribing it for children who ate too much sugar or something - I don't think it would work anyway.

I think it our society is behaving really irresponsibly that SO many new chemicals are being introduced and people don't know what all the affects are. The frustrating thing for parents who try to do whatever they can - is that it isn't enough - and that is nowhere you can live (even/or esp. the Arctic circle) to get away from it.

I do think it's like some kind of crazy loop where the one companies are making some things that mess people up and then the pharmaceuticals come along with their cures to make us better. I avoid drugs myself. And I've taken up gardening - so I know what I'm eating (but even then - who knows what someone else put in the ground - whats in the air, the water, etc. It's a mess).

[Kailassa]

52. You can't possibly avoid all chemicals these days.

But by growing your own veges, you are maximizing the nutrients, and this is the other way to fight them. The better nourished you are, the better your liver can work at detoxifying and eliminating chemicals. Even perfectly natural foods have natural chemicals which are bad for us, so our livers have evolved the ability to cope with a wide range of poisons.

I don't push vegetarianism, but the ideal diet is low in meat, because meat is comparatively filling and low in nutrients. We need fresh vegetables to give our bodies the ability to heal and stay young.

Changing society's eating habits and use of chemicals is one part of improving health. Doing what you are doing is another. But also trust your body to be able to survive numerous onslaughts for as long as you can keep up a supply of vegetables, your good humour and a purpose worth getting out of bed for.

[Midlodemocrat]

28. LOL. Yes, the adults have changed, but not in that way.

Standardized testing has made it virtually impossible for teachers to be creative or to seek a creative solution to a child's 'issues'. Most children have both parents working full time and coming home at 6PM to cook and do the laundry and help with homework is exhausting.

What folks don't seem to understand is that children are not meant to stay still in school for six hours at the early ages. They need to run around and play and learn to socialize. When I was in grade school, we had TWO recesses a day AND I went home for a full hour of lunch to eat and chill. Now my 9yo gets a whopping 18 minutes to enter the cafeteria, sit down, unpack her lunch and eat it, throw the remains away and line up to go back to class.

Hell, even her teacher has recognized the demands on these kids. She gives my daughter's class time to do their homework every day because she herself is so exhausted helping her first grader with his.

It is flat out fucking ridiculous. They need to be kids. And we wonder why they are so eager to try adult type behaviors.

Okay, soap box is free. Rant off.

[Horse with no Name]

32. I think this is one of the biggest issues

Kids need to be kids. They aren't mini-adults. Play is very important in teaching social skills to kids. Recess is every bit as important as math, because it is the only interaction that some kids have.
Play teaches children how to share, how to wait their turn, how to develop friendships, and it fosters camaraderie.
It teaches kids valuable eye-hand coordination while playing ball and gives them needed exercise.
The curriculum today (and especially with the medication thrown in) teaches children nothing socially except if you question authority you WILL be medicated.
I don't necessarily think that this is a teaching problem nearly as much as a societal problem. We live in a society of instant gratification.
Children would learn more taking a nature walk as they would studying nature in a book. However, some parents believe that parking your kid in front of "Animal Planet" will teach them what they need to know.
Our society is being driven by Neocons who don't want kids to get in touch with nature because then they may develop a love for it. What they want is for kids to not give a shit about it so that they can drill it, strip mine it, pollute the atmosphere, etc. The last thing they want is another generation of tree huggers.
You fix that by not allowing kids to go outside and play.
Our society is being driven by Big Pharma. Pills for every reason and every season. Bottom line is profit.
Our society is being driven by standardized testing and dumbing down the populace. A dumb populace allows the agenda that is being forced today without questions.

[SoCalDem]

50. I would guess that it's more about diet, lack of recess,& teacher stress

I raised 3 boys who were as rowdy as it gets, but they were also "outdoor" kids who were always skateboarding, riding bikes, digging in dirt and basically running around from dawn to dusk.

they ate breakfast before school, had balanced meals and got LOTS of exercise.. they pretty much behaved in school too.

no meds for them because I always knew that boys were "active", and just expected it ..

[Yollam]

57. Where are your stats on this?

Who says kids used to drink booze before and during school? And believe it or not, not all kids were big on reading the Bible in the old days either.


Kids are on Ritalin because

1. They are bored in our horrible, too-easy, dumbed down, infotainment school system, which is in part a result of the fact that...

2. Parents let their kids spend hours each day watching TV and playing video games, which destroys their attention span and ability to focus on reading or listen intently to a lesson and...

3. The nutrient-depleted junk "food" people feed their kids (pizza, pop-tarts, juice, etc.) gets them hyped-up but unfocused and...

4. Doctors are almost bribed by Big Pharma to hand out prescriptions for Ritalin like candy to parents who can't be bothered to create a structured environment with healthy food and little or no TV/Video Games and just want a magic pill to fix it all for them.


I know there are people who will disagree with me vehemently on this but ADHD is a symptom of certain environmental and dietary factors, not a syndrome. It is not a condition in its own right. There may be a few kids who have real problems that could not be overcome without medication, but I do believe that the vast majority of kids being fed this junk are being shortchanged.


The fact is each kid is different and learns in his or her own way and own pace. The attempt to use chemicals to make everyone conform, and pass the NCLB tests is disgraceful. My kid is attending school here in Japan and NONE of the kids in his class is on Ritalin, or White LIghtning, or anything else. KIds here in every grade show much better aptitude in almost every subject, without the "benefit" of the Ritalin that 3 million American kids are on.

What nonsense that kids (or anyone else) need to "self-medicate". A healthy diet, a loving family and exercise are all anyone needs for mental well-being. Too bad the loving family part is so hard to find these days...

[Lib Grrrrl]

60. I Agree To A Point...

the loving family who has time to devote to thier child is becoming rapidly a thing of the past...as more and more adults are forced, by Corporate America...to work longer and longer hours just to stay in the same place. sadly, quality time with the children is one of the casualties of this.

Likewise, a healthy diet is hard to come by when parents work all day and come home too exhausted to even be able to prepare a healthful meal, and spend quality time with the kids, helping them with homework, etc. Most parents are so over-worked these days, just to make ends meet...that all they want to do when they get home is put their feet up for an hour or two, order in a pizza, and relax a little in front of the TV before going to bed so that they can climb on the treadmill all over again the next day.

There are many villians in this very large problem. Neglectful parents, overworked, over wrought parents and teachers...kids with poor diet/exercise habits, lousy short attention spans...a dumbed-down education system that discourages any and all creativity and encourages only teaching to a test, and demanding kids barf up answers on demand...there are no critical thinking skills taught anymore...the kids just need to barf up the correct answer on demand...

Corporate america, Big Pharma, junk food, video games, dumbed-down education systems, neglectful or overowrked parents and teachers...all of it is part of the problem, and in order to fix it, we Americans need to reconsider our priorities.

I particularly have a problem with teachers now being forced to teaching to a test, so that kids might be able to regurgitate an answer on demand. What does that teach? Nothing...except conformity. If I can regurgitate on demand that 5 plus 5 is 10...do I necessary know how to add, say 8 and 13? Nope.

Here's an example of what I mean. I'm going to give you one of my all-time favorite questions...and it involves the use of critical thinking.

Q: Imagine that a man, six feet tall, were to walk around the Earth at the equator (25,000 miles.) How much further would his head travel than his feet?

There IS a correct answer to this. The answer, rounded to the nearest inch, is 37 feet, 8 inches. Now, how did I arrive at the answer? I could be taught to reguritate this answer on demand...but then would I be able to work out the answer if, say, I was asked the same question about a woman, five feet tall? And there IS a different answer, by the way. Because I can engage in critical thinking...and because I know HOW the problem was solved...I can use what I know to come up with the correct answer for the five foot tall woman. Can you? Could your kids? Would they even TEACH stuff like this anymore in our dumbed-down system?

By the way, for those who would like to try to solve that question...here it is, rephrased...and I have provided the answer as well.

Q: Imagine that a woman, five feet tall, were to walk around the Earth, at the equator (25,000 miles.) How much further would her head travel than her feet?

For the answer, highlight after the A:

A: The answer is...rounded to the nearest inch, her head would travel 31 feet, 5 inches further than her feet.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RagingInMiami]

163. "It is not a condition in its own right. "

You are so wrong.

[jmowreader]

202. The drinking comment was purely anecdotal

As in, my dad, my boss at the job I had before this one, a couple of the outside sales people we had at the same place, the sheriff of the county I grew up in (old family friend), the mayor of that town, a LOT of people who grew up in the 1920-1939 time frame, have told me stories about how they used to stash jugs in close proximity to the school so they could have a belt at lunch.

I figure that if 300 people, none of whom grew up in proximity to one another (dad was raised in Oregon, the sheriff in south Idaho, the mayor in Spokane, my old boss in Tennessee...), drank at school, probably lots of people drank at school.

I know from personal observation about the pot smokers. The kids who were the known class troublemakers in the elementary school I went to started dividing into a "calm" group and a "not calm" group in junior high...when some of them started going into the courtyard behind the building and smoking pot. By high school they were all smokers and the not-calm group had disappeared. Today they'd all be on Ritalin.

The comment about the Bible-readin' was a slam on the fundies who have decided that The Reason Our Youth Have Strayed Is The Lack Of Constant Bible Reading In Public Schools. Yup, it's them thar Lousy Atheists who're fucking up the works and Degrading The Moral Character Of Our Great Nation...never mind that eight of America's ten favorite gangsters were operating while Madelyn Murray O'Hair was still in grade school.

In an ideal situation, your requirements for mental health would be embraced by all. In the world the rest of us live in, lots of people get ripped on a regular basis.

[moc]

62. Some parents just want a pill to fix everything.

My husband is a therapist in private practice who specializes in child/adolescent. He runs into this issue all the time. Parents bring disruptive kid into his office for an evaluation. He observes/evaluates and makes recommendations for treatment which often includes suggestions for changes in parenting practices. Nope, they don't want to hear that. They just want a pill to give little Johnny to make him act nice.

[IndyJones]

92. I've seen this a lot, too. It's disturbing how some people do not want

to take responsibility to actually parent their kids.

[Haole Girl]

64. One word why so many are on Ritalin: SUGAR

[Breeze54]

88. There is ADHD and ADD...

Both are different types and have different symptoms.
Sugar has been ruled out in the 'real' diagnosis.
It is physiological/biological fact.
Just as diabetes is physical; so is ADD/ADHD.

[OzarkDem]

66. Teaching and schools have changed

A recent study found that children in US classrooms vs. those in Japanese and Russian classrooms didn't learn as much science and math because US teachers spent too much class time trying to make the subject matter "fun" instead of teaching it.

Changes in teaching styles from a structured classroom setting to one that is chaotic and unstructured with little content during class has made it impossible for kids with ADD to learn. Too many distractions in the classroom and too little time spent on material is probably a major contributor to the increase in ADD and ADHD diagnosis.

It is a shame that kids have to be medicated to learn when all they really need is a structured classroom setting with few distractions.

[pitohui]

71. it's no different than a jock taking steroids

ritalin and adderal are performance enhancing for students and at some point the parents feel pushed into getting their child the same advantage

i am now thinking of using adderal myself

if others are using the drug and seeing enhanced performance then you can't compete without

funny how steroids are illegal and it's cheating to use but when it's your brain, it's OK?

the top competitors in the world series of poker and in the chess tournament world use adderal

so yeah

i don't blame the kids and parents for being all over this and if it's first suggested by the school then they can do it guilt-free

not the same situation as alcohol/pot which do not enhance performance, it would be more comparable to meth without the prolonged periods of being unable to sleep or eat

[Breeze54]

82. Link to proof please! TY! n/t

[pitohui]

86. er proof of what?

what are you asking me? you can't be seriously unaware that we do have the technology to improve performance in sport, this is why athletes today keep breaking records

every second grader knows that steroids improves performance in reaction time and body development, thus, increasing your competitive advantage in every physical sport from baseball to bodybuilding

and hell every kindergartener knows that adderal/ritalin improve performance in the classroom and in the "nerd" sports like chess

if you're involved in chess or poker in a serious way you already know what you have to do to compete, there is no drug testing in those sports and as the participants in same are of a strong libertarian to anarchist leaning, there won't ever be drug testing in those sports because in that culture it is accepted that it's perfectly fair to take drugs to enhance the operation of your brain

if reuters ain't caught up w. reality yet that is not my problem

what is your sport?

the only sport i've ever competed in where there wasn't a drug to enhance performance is bird watching

seriously if you keep losing in poker, chess, bridge, etc. and you can't quite grok why when you used to be as smart as the rest of the crowd, it's because you haven't caught a clue yet

[Breeze54]

89. this...

"ritalin and adderal are performance enhancing for students and at some
point the parents feel pushed into getting their child the same advantage.."

You are totally grouping ALL children and adults with ADD/ADHD in the same group
as people who 'just think' their kids have a problem...

You compare steroids in jocks; with meds for ADD/ADHD with out proof!!
That the drugs are working the same! That's the proof I requested.

Kids who actually are ADD/ADHD and take meds?
It calms them down...it does not speed them up!
It levels the playing field, so that they can function!!!

Read more about it!

[pitohui]

153. you need to read more carefully

there is nothing in my posts that says anything about "all" parents or "all" children

but if you think people are not using these products to get a competitive advantage you are living in a dream world

adderal allows most if not all people using their brains to increase their ability to focus -- not just people "officially" diagnosed with attention deficit disorder -- a pill has no way of knowing if you've ever been diagnosed with anything, imagine that!

many people actually study up on the symptoms of attention deficit disorder so they can get the prescription from their doctors

if you don't know this is going on, well, what can i say, perhaps you are not involved in any endeavors where people get a competitive advantage from using their brains

however i am involved in such and it's rampant

i'm not opposed to it, not at all, indeed i may start using the stuff myself

nonetheless you needn't try to convince ME that everyone taking these drugs at doctor's orders has some disease, i know better and you would too if you participated in any serious sport where these drugs give advantage like chess, poker, etc.

i would suggest that YOU need to do further reading, or better stop reading, turn off the internet, and get out and talk to real people using these substances

they are not all doing it because they have a disease and many will be happy to share with you how they got their prescription by faking symptoms

[Pavulon]

121. Good luck with that

Unless you have add it will have no medical effect for you. You can take lots of it and not sleep for days if you like.


Try taking zyprexa, see if you get an enhancing effect from that..

[pitohui]

154. yes that is the party line

but the people will continue to use technology in ways that they find effective, regardless of the political cant of the day

a drug has no way of knowing if a wizard waved a magic wand over you and pronounced you as having an attention deficit disorder

everybody's got an attention deficit disorder, we live in an information overload society

[SoCalDemGrrl]

155. You have NO clue what ADD is all about

Performance enhancing!!! Bull****!!

The adderall/ritalin just lets the ADD person be NORMAL... there's no advantage believe me.

Imagine NEVER being able to complete a test... NEVER. Because your mind just keeps wandering away.

Imagine NEVER being able to find your study notes...NEVER. Because you are so absentminded you can't remember where you put ANYTHING!!

Imagine your classmates laughing AT you because you're always fumbling to find things at a desk that looks as though a bomb went off because

you can NEVER organize ANYTHING..


Well this is just a hint of what it's like to have ADD.

AND adderall just gets us to the point where YOU, the average person is.

[IselaB]

80. You're all glib.

[Yollam]

85. And you're ironic.

NT

[IselaB]

112. You don't know. I know.

Do you know Ritalin? Do you know now that Ritalin is a street drug? Do you understand that? You don't even know what Ritalin is. If you start talking about chemical imbalance, you have to evaluate and read the research papers on how they came up with these theories, okay? That's what I've done.

You're glib.

[Yollam]

119. No, you're ironic because you pronounce a bunch of posters "glib"...

...with an even more glib pronouncement of your own. You're entitled to your opinion, but your post was the most glib of all, which was why it was ironic. Feel free to contribute a little bt more. Otherwise, you're just calling names and declaring yourself a know-it-all. I don't claim to know all there is to know about "ADHD" or the drugs used to "treat" it. You claim that you do. So why not share a bit of that, rather than just calling names?

[Pavulon]

122. Street Drug?

Ritalin is a C2 stimulant. Lots of life saving and useful drugs are street drugs. Fentanyl is a street drug, but helps people dying of cancer not suffer.

Opiates, synthetic opiates all have massive abuse potential. Lets ban them.

MPH is helpful for people WITH add.

Amphetamines were used in hyperactive children in the 30's.

[LeftHander]

97. Watch the movie "THUMBSUCKER"

That movie gives some interesting insight into legal "speed" for kids.

[Dorian Gray]

100. So...

we should allow kids today to take a nip of alcohol or marijuana before school? What about the younger kids with behavioral problems? They weren't nipping into the booze at lunchtime or toking up.

This is a real issue, and I think that the OP is very shortsighted on the problem. I also don't think this issue is so much Republican v. Democrat, but about child welfare. Each individual parent needs to evaluate their children and travel the road that best fits their needs. In some cases it might be ritalin. In some others, the behaviorall issues may not be caused by ADHD at all.

[noonwitch]

103. It'a about a lack of creativity from parents, teachers and doctors

These are kids who need to have a way to positively use their energy. So they need more physical activity during their day, both at school and at home.

Have a longer gym period on a daily basis (not the 2 days a week we had) at the elementary school level, in which the kids are playing team sports like soccer, baseball, football, etc. Put less corn syrup in the food-that juice they serve in the school cafeteria is probably as bad for the kids as soda pop. Milk is better, or real juice.

Break the day up properly. Reward the kids for their concentration in the classroom by letting them run around the playground like little maniacs for longer than 15 minutes, when they are little. They need to run around.

At home, limit their tv and video game playing. Make them ride their bikes to their friends' houses when the weather is nice. Take them to play miniature golf once in a while, or roller skating, or swimming. Put a basketball hoop over the garage door. Get the kids into Little League or Boys and Girls Club or the Y. Cook as much food from scratch as possible and avoid tv dinners and Chef Boyardee. East fast food as an occasional treat, not part of the routine.

Even with this, there are still kids who may need to be on meds, there always have been and probably always will be. But the increase in numbers of kids diagnosed with ADHD isn't due to an increase in kids having the condition, it's due to a lack of patience in adults coupled with a pharmacuetical industry gone amuck.

[kath]

106. A very good article on "ADHD":

What Is Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)?
by Lydia Furman, MD

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/522190
<On edit - link only works for Medscape subscribers. Try this instead:
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:rwaW2uzizPsJ:www.medscape.com/viewarticle/522190+furman+%22what+is+attention-deficit%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
Abstract:
Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is described as the most common neurobehavioral condition of childhood. We raise the concern that ADHD is not a disease per se but rather a group of symptoms representing a final common behavioral pathway for a gamut of emotional, psychological, and/or learning problems. Increasing numbers of children, especially boys, are diagnosed with ADHD and treated with stimulant medications according to a simplified approach. Methodical review of the literature, however, raised concerning issues. "Core" ADHD symptoms of inattentiveness, hyperactivity and impulsivity are not unique to ADHD. Rates of "comorbid" psychiatric and learning problems, including depression and anxiety, range from 12 to 60%, with significant symptom overlap with ADHD, difficulties in diagnosis, and evidence-based treatment methods that do not include stimulant medications. No neuropsychologic test result is pathognomic for ADHD, and structural and functional neuroimaging studies have not identified a unique etiology for ADHD. No genetic marker has been consistently identified, and heritability studies are confounded by familial environmental factors. The validity of the Conners' Rating Scale-Revised has been seriously questioned, and parent and teacher "ratings" of school children are frequently discrepant, suggesting that use of subjective informant data via scale or interview does not form an objective basis for diagnosis of ADHD. Empiric diagnostic trials of stimulant medication that produce a behavioral response have been shown not to distinguish between children with and without "ADHD." In summary, the working dogma that ADHD is a disease or neurobehavioral condition does not at this time hold up to scrutiny of evidence. Thorough evaluation of symptomatic children should be individualized, and include assessment of educational, psychologic, psychiatric, and family needs.

[Odin2005]

107. As a person with ADHD, I'm sick of idiots saying it doesn't exist.

There is definitely a genetic component to it as well, Thom Hartmann has sugessted that ADHD was far more common in our hunter-gather ancestors and that selection in settled societies decreased the occurance of ADHD. We ADHDers are "damaged" because we are forced to conform to a society dominated by people with "farmer" minds.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/damagedhunters.shtml
http://www.thomhartmann.com/hunterfarmer.shtml
http://www.thomhartmann.com/hunters_and_farmers.shtml
http://www.additudemag.com/additude.asp?DEPT_NO=102&ARTICLE_NO=29&ARCV=1

[MsTryska]

108. Hmm..my pet theory? High Fructose Corn Syrup....

transfats, low-fat foods, processed foods.


Not necessarily just int he kids, but in the parents too. Think about it - kids who now are the product of those first couple generations where better living through chemistry is a way of life from birth til death. Babies of the 60s and 70s.

High levels of airplane fuel and flame retardant are found in breast milk for chrissakes. is it any surprise to me that little kids have issues?

not at all.

[shanti]

115. i like the hfcs theory too

also i don't remember so many extremely large people until the mid-late 70's or so. wasn't this about the time that hfcs was introduced? remember when coke changed their formula? i'll bet that's when they started putting hfcs in sodas instead of plain old sugar.

[MsTryska]

117. You've got it just about right....

check out this graph:

[shanti]

120. wow, that is telling!

thanks for the graph. so at the same time that sugar was declining, hfcs was increasing. verrrrry interesting.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

148. OMG yes I think you're on to something.. HFCS is my new nemisis..

however I hadn't thought of it as causative in the increase in ADD/ADHD, but I believe you may be right.

In the last year or so we have been ridding our home of ALL SUBSTANCES containing high fructose corn syrup.


But it's a tugh battle. If you take the time to read labels, you'll find it's in SO amy things.. from catsup to Special K cereal.

It's insidious...

[MsTryska]

157. Well HFCS does cause a higher insulin spike than does regular cane sugar.

And I know (from experience) too much insulin can cause your body to go haywire in all sorts of ways. It wouldn't surprise me if in children it has different effects than in adults, since more of the nutrients in their foods go towards developing their brains.

Last night I happened quite by accident to catch Jamie Olivers School Lunch Project on TLC (I was looking for Honey We're Killing the Kids, which apparently is a show about child nutirtion and the ill-effects of too much crap - you might be interested in both shows).

Anyways - Jamie was staying with a family while trying to change the school lunch program at this British elemntary school that's in a county with the poorest health in the UK. The family pretty much ate processed junk for their meals. He convinced the Mom to change the family diet to more natural healthier foods, and the parents were absolutely astonished that their 6-yr old no longer threw tantrums, got out of control or was difficult to wake up in the mornings.

They even tried an experiment where they gave the kids some of their old food after 10 days of "eating clean". Wouldn't you know, literally 30 minutes after finishing their meal, the 6 year old pitched a fit to end all fits, and then the next morning was his over-tired cranky self again, when they tried to wake him for school.

[Ciggies and coffee]

109. Your post reminded me of the Anti-Soda crusade in schools

Any guess as to whether sodas containing caffeine were responsible for keeping a certain percentage of kids free from pills?

The soda industry is large. I am certain the pharmaceutical industry makes them a minor league team by comparison, however.

Not sticking up for the soda industry, and their corn-syrup sweetened garbage. The juices they will still be selling, after this "feel-good" agreement, contain even more of it than soda. Last month, I tried a cola brand which had real sugar, and besides tasting much better, did not have that ton-of-lead feeling in the stomach.

[Yollam]

137. You make a good point - sort of.

I have also been disappointed that schools are kicking sugary sodas out, but keeping the super-sugary "juices" in. Not only that, they will still be selling the brain-rotting aspartame sodas. I see no reason why there should be vending machines of any kind in schools. Since when did their presence become some sort of time-honored tradition? Kids can get milk at lunch, drink water the rest of the day, and swill healthy drinks or the crud of their choice at home. I'm as bothered by the concept of allowing companies to market products to a captive audience of kids in PUBLIC schools as I am by sugar and caffeine...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

110. They used to beat unruly kids.

If a kid wasn't paying attention or acting unruly, they'd smack them around. If they kept acting poorly, they'd just smack them harder. Even the worst kids learned to sit still.

Frankly, I prefer the ritalin.

[Dogmudgeon]

164. Sounds like the old Mitch Hedberg joke

"When I went to school, instead of having Ritalin, we had Paddlin'."

That was part of my youth, too, sad to say. It wasn't the pain ... it was the ritual.

--p!
What you hated as a child, you value as an adult -- like being beaten in public by an attractive 25-year-old woman.
(Emo What-his-name)

[geniph]

197. One of my brothers was severely ADHD

and in those days, they just called him a troublemaker and beat the living shit out of him. It didn't help, and it sure as hell didn't make his ADHD any better. It just made for a defensive, damaged little boy who grew up into a damaged, self-medicating adult.

I agree with you...Greg would have been a lot better off being drugged than being beaten like an old rug.

[TrogL]

118. There were plenty of kids who could have benefitted from Ritalin...

...when I was a kid.

They showed all the symptoms of today's ADD kids, just there wasn't a medication to help them. Soon as it was legal, they dropped out of school to everyone's relief.

[KyuzoGator]

143. I'm 28 years old...

And I remember when I was in elementary school, the kids who took Ritalin were the ones who were so hyperactive that they couldn't function socially. I'm talking literally bouncing off the walls and yelling and screaming.

Today, it seems like people are being prescribed Ritalin (adult and child alike) because their attention span isn't trained properly. It's gone from a medical matter to one of laziness and excuses.

[bloom]

160. Hmmm

I wonder how people explain ADD, ADHD, etc. away as "parenting", as TV, as diet, as the "teachers", as recess - or some other thing like that - when you have a family with 3 kids all raised pretty much the same - 2 are normal and one of the girls has ADD and who Ritalin helps. Who wouldn't have finished college without it.

I think the people who think they know everything - but who have no experience themselves or with children who have these things ought to listen to those who have experience. Instead of making assumptions about the world based on TV or some other thing.


I personally think that ADD and ADHD are more related to the Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) than some people realize. There may be environmental factors - toxins - and it may worse when children have less exercise - and fewer stress relievers - and schools and parents should definitely consider those things. That does not mean that there is NOT a thing - where brains are different and where children DO benefit from Ritalin or some other thing. Or that some kids act out without having ADD or something.

The schools could be better adapted for the students with ASD - and I hope they are adapting and providing more nutritious food (instead of white bread and fats), more recess (things that would help anyone), and even more structure for those who need it. As well as more opportunities for children to move ahead instead of being bored (esp. for those who have ASD and exceptional memories).

For those who think that ADD, ADHD, ASD is NOT the issue - what DO you think these things are being prescribed for? ADD, ADHD, ASD is exactly the issue and those who don't get that - just don't get it.

In the current TIME:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1191462,00.html

"Inside the autistic mind"

[Finder]

172. I don't think anyone is saying every case...

is the same. A parent of a child with ADHD will be biased as far as whether parenting is a factor. Those arguing that it wasn't parenting since they also have ADHD or ADD and one of their parents did as well do not disprove the theory but reinforce it. Many of us have observed these families and see a particular pattern. I am personally in the behavior diversity camp and think there are a lot of children medicated that do not require it.

Studies have shown that there is a higher instance in formula fed babies compared to breast-fed babies. This leads many researchers to conclude there may be a nutrition deficit of some sort. There is also a marked difference in the size of the cerebellum of those diagnosed.

There is also a marked higher instance in the southern states of the US.(redstate phenomenon?) California and New York are two of the lowest incident states.

[bloom]

174. California and New York

It may be that people in CA or NY are more likely to call ADD or ADHD -> Autism/Asperger's - with the same symptoms. I know the rates of ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) have skyrocketed in California - and probably in NY as well.

I was talking with a parent of a daughter diagnosed with either ADD or ADHD (I don't remember which) and it sounded like she had the same symptoms as what others call Asperger's.

-----

I expect that the people who are the parents of these children have read a lot more about it than the people have who insist that it's the parents who are doing something "wrong".

[Finder]

177. Perfect parents do not exist...

never did and never will...just as there are several ways of teaching, there are several ways to parent according to the individuals' needs and abilities.

check out the map.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/adhdmedicated.htm

[bloom]

185. I don't think anyone is saying that there are perfect parents

Unfortunately people (like you) ARE implying that parental neglect is why there is ADHD, etc.

One person wrote:

"I think it's parental neglect......"

(written in response to "I have kids now with bipolar disorder, tourette's, aspergers, autism, ADHD.... "etc.

And you wrote:

I agree, neglect is the top factor...

and all the others factors like nutrition, sleep, discipline are connected to that neglect.

Sad thing is most of these parents do not realize they are neglecting their children since that is all they know from either their own upbringing or by comparing to their contemporaries.

New moms today are given formula and pacifiers for their babies upon leaving the hospital...when the kids are older they are given snacks, fast food and video games or the the tv remote to "pacify".
----------------------------------------------

And I think that's just bullshit on your part.


http://www.fightingautism.org/idea/autism-prevalence-report.php

[Finder]

188. I was blaming society not the individuals...

and noted how feeding a child formula and using pacifiers--is a big factor. When nature and nurture are both affected negatively...it is impossible to find balance. Medication is not the answer in all cases.

I think Asperger's or what we label Asberger's is a type of personality trait common to humans. Using the list of symptoms, there are not many famous people in history who are not said to have exhibited at least a few of the symptoms. Actually, most people today have at least a few of the symptoms..including myself.

I think in the current multi-tasking environment we have today, those with Asp. will excel.

[bloom]

190. That's not what it sounds like to the parents.

In my experience people with Asperger's would rather focus on one thing at a time instead of a lot of things at the same time.

[sam sarrha]

168. Strattera is a DANGEROUS Drug, 150 dead in one month.. 12yr olds killing

themselves.. it is a failed anti-depressant that was never really tested for ADHD..

google: strattera failed drug , strattera failed anti depresent

they are giving it without even diagnosing the children, it is a Hellish drug, causes brain fog because of all the speed, it paralyzes the person..

i fell into a hallucinated world of death everywhere and only death was the option.. there was no other option

please if you know someone who has kids on it tell them to do to the doctor and find out how to safely withdraw from it.. dont stop it all at once.

children are dropping dead from heart attacks.!!

i have some links if you are interested

[lumberjack_jeff]

171. Strattera is not a stimulant n/t

[sam sarrha]

178. i have taken it and it is a STIMULANT. im an old hippie i KNOW stimulants

it is nasty F*cking shit.. it kills lots of people

[Craig3410]

175. Time for my story...

I've been on so many different pills, it's amazing. Dexadrine, Adderall, Ritalin, Concerta, Paxil, Clonidine, Cylert, et al,(not all at once, of course) so I was basically stoned out my gourd from kindergarten until about 7th or 8th grade, at which point I decided to just quit the stuff on my own because, to be honest, I felt no different taking them and not taking them.

Still on the Paxil, though; it's a beast to get off of.

Also, they sent me out of my main school to one across town to put me in special ed; amazing, I was in a class that was at a 2nd grade level for my entire 5th grade yaer!

[sam sarrha]

180. have you checked out .. Aspergers Syndrome.. link>>

http://www.wrongplanet.net

i have been told i have had dyslexia, ADD, ADHA, that i was mentally retarded..

but with an IQ of 164 and a literacy level of 6 grade, spacial relationships percentile of 97%%, i am Visually perceptive.. i think in pictures.. have taken a lot of medications and they have never worked, it is most likely i have Aspergers Syndrome..

check it out, they have some interesting essays, and research there

[Craig3410]

181. Whoops, forgot about that one;

I've got that too.
AND diabetes.

Kinda explains why I'm pretty much only in college to pay for my meds, huh?

[zalinda]

179. I confess..............I have ADD or ADHD

I am 57 years old, and have struggled all my life with "life". I got good grades, only because I was smart. I don't think I read a text book at all in high school, I could just listen to the teacher and perform well on tests. I have had a hard time focusing on one thing all my life, I multi task to the max.

I've been diagnosed with fibromyalgia and that answered some of the questions. I've pushed through that and have been able to cope. Recently I've been going to the doctor and she tried me on anti-depressants, which made me unbelievably dysfunctional. She was treating me for high blood pressure. Then I finally had enough. I told her I wasn't depressed, I was anxious, I couldn't focus to get things done. She put me on an anti-anxiety and Adderal. One month later, my blood pressure was down to normal, without taking any medication. I'm getting things done and am actually sleeping at night. I feel NORMAL, for the first time that I can remember. But, the government doesn't believe that anyone over 12 has ADD so I have to go to the doctor every month to get the prescription, because government regs won't let her give me more than a month's supply.

zalinda

[RagingInMiami]

191. Here is my story

I was the kid who always in trouble, the class clown, the one who had trouble controlling his impulses. If a teacher asked the class a question, I would blurt out the answer without raising my hand. Sometimes, I would just blurt out my thoughts regardless if she was asking a question or not.

This was during the 1970s. I was considered hyperactive. The doctors wanted to medicate me, but my mother refused. So I continued cutting up in class, making wisecracks and "disrupting the learning environment" as my teachers would write year after year on my report card.

They would also write the following, year after year:

"If he only applied himself, he could reach any goal he wants."

"If he only channeled that abundance of energy into his schoolwork, he would make straight A's."

In high school, I became a pothead, which mellowed me out. No longer was I getting in trouble for blurting out my thoughts. However, I was getting in trouble for smoking pot on school grounds.

By the time I dropped out of school at the age of 18, I had been kicked out of three schools for either drugs or incorrigibility.

But before I dropped out, I discovered I was good at two things; writing and acting. I excelled in drama class and I became entertaintment editor of my school newspaper. I had and still have a unique way of looking at the world, and it came out in my acting and in my writing (and now, in my photography).

So even after I had dropped out, I knew I was going to be either an actor or a writer. I ended up getting a GED at the age of 20 and enrolled in community college at the age of 21. I quickly realized that I had more freedom as a writer than an actor, so I began focusing on that.

After all, with writing, you have the power to create your own scenarios. With acting, you have to follow someone else's scenarios. I've never been good at following orders and acting was no exception.

It took me three-and-a-half years to finish community college and then two years to complete a four-year degree at the local state university. At the age of 26, I shocked my friends and family by graduating with a degree in journalism.

It was then that I read an article about ADHD(called ADD back then) in Newsweek. And it was then when I realized why I had struggled so much in my life and caused my parents and teachers so much grief.

I ended up getting a prescription for Ritalin and it changed my world. It helped me not only control my impulses, but also in my personal relationships. It made me less irritable.

I am now 37 and taking Adderall. I still have ADHD and it is never easy. Even with the medication, I still have trouble paying my bills on time, meeting deadlines (which causes great stress on my editors), controlling my finances and keeping organized.

The best way to explain ADHD is to imagine that you are nearsighted and you are forced to go through life without corrective lenses. You will manage, but it will be extremely difficult, depending on the severity of your condition.

Then one day somebody hands you a pair of glasses and you put them on, and voila, suddenly the world is crystal clear. For the first time in your life, you can read the signs in the distance. You can make out people's expressions. You can find where you placed your wallet without having to spend 20 minutes searching your room.

That is how I felt the first time I took Ritalin.

[Breeze54]

194. Well said!

You describe a lot of my son's life.
The disorganization. The struggles.
And his JOY, finally, with success!!

"Then one day somebody hands you a pair of glasses and you put them on, and voila,
suddenly the world is crystal clear. For the first time in your life, you can read
the signs in the distance. You can make out people's expressions. You can find where
you placed your wallet without having to spend 20 minutes searching your room."

I like that near-sighted analogy too.
I actually had that "new eye glasses" experience and it was amazing to finally be able to see!!

My son and I spent two hours, yesterday, looking for his new cellphone.
He 'lost' it .....again, as he tends to do with a lot of things.
We finally found it but he goes through this often.

Congratulations on your success and graduation!
He's hot on your trail!! :)

[RagingInMiami]

195. Good luck to him

How old is he?

[Breeze54]

199. He's a 17 year old now...

He was suspected of ADD/ADHD in the primary grades.
I finally tried meds in the 3rd grade and the difference was dramatic!
He's doing very well in school now but he, like you, is still disorganized, loses things etc.
But he is now 'aware' of this and makes efforts to fix it.
He's a good kid and enjoying success! I'm very proud of him!
:)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just thought I'd add this, for more info./reference

http://www.chadd.org/
CHADD - A Non-Profit Organization

Children and Adults with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (CHADD),
is a national non-profit, tax-exempt (Section 501(c)(3)) organization providing
education, advocacy and support for individuals with AD/HD.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.chadd.org/whatsnew/news030206.htm

Media reports exaggerate, distort stimulant abuse and AD/HD meds relationship;
Misleading stories are a disservice to the public and can impact needed treatment

Recent media reports on abuse and diversion of stimulant drugs have distorted statistics
regarding abuse of prescription medication used to treat AD/HD.
CHADD, a family-based organization with 14,000 members, is concerned about any diversion
or misuse of stimulants. While we support efforts to insure that medications are safely
prescribed and used, we are concerned that these misleading depictions may confuse the
general public about the seriousness of AD/HD and may compromise patient care.
AD/HD medications, when properly administered, have been proven safe and effective
and can be an important part of the multimodal treatment for AD/HD.

Kroutil, et al, report the total number of persons aged 12 years or older who misused at
least one prescription stimulant at least once in their lifetime; media coverage confused
and exaggerated those statistics, implying a similar degree of abuse in any given year.
The report did not offer new data but merely reworked previously collected data;
despite the headlines, that data showed less than one half of one percent of those who
tried AD/HD medication not prescribed to them could be classified as either dependent
or abusing the medication. The study research also notes mis-use of stimulant drugs has
either dropped or remained stable among youths 12 and older.

In fact, research shows that treatment of AD/HD reduces patient risk of developing
substance abuse to normal levels, while persons with untreated AD/HD are at twice the
risk of developing a substance abuse disorder.
The protective factor of appropriate treatment is an important consideration for patients,
families and treating professionals.
The potential harm to individuals who don’t receive diagnosis and treatment because
of concerns inflamed by media reports of this type is severe.

CHADD supports on-going study of this important issue and notes that AD/HD medications
can play an important role in helping young people negotiate adolescence.

CHADD positions include:

• Careful evaluation, diagnosis and treatment are the keystones of successful management
of the serious disorder that is AD/HD.

More at Link.....

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[RagingInMiami]

200. It's never going to be easy, but at least you are fully supportive

and understanding of his condition.

They say the best way for an ADHD person to keep organized is to write things down. But that is easier said than done because you need to first remember to write it down. And that is easier said than done.

[Breeze54]

201. LOL! I hear you!

You're NOT kidding!!
I've purchased many 'Daily Diaries' to try to help him stay organized!
If only we could find them!!!
:rofl:

You know what I mean?? lol...

[savemefromdumbya]

198. They didn't need Ritalin in my day?

In our school if anyone didn't learn or was naughty they were caned (meaning they were hit with a long stick on the derriere!).

Ritlain has been linked to heart problems.