"Acting white".

[Chovexani]

For a big chunk of my life (pre-K to 8th grade), I went to a predominately white and well-to-do private school. My mom was a single parent that worked two jobs to put me in that school because my area public elementary/junior highs were questionable, and also to put my older sister through college (Mom had me late in life). But I also grew up in a typical tambourine-thumpin' black church, complete with ladies in huge hats that would fall out and start dancing in the aisles 'cause they "got the Spirit". So I sort of felt like I straddled two different worlds.

I was made fun of by pretty much everyone, at school and at church because I read a lot; I've always been a geeky type with my nose stuck in a book. But in church I was constantly made fun of because I spoke differently. They said I talked "like a white girl" and were always calling me Oreo. Not just kids either, adults used to also. Of course at school white people (students & teachers alike) would always tell me "you're not like other black people" (this was meant to be a compliment, mind you. They had no clue how insulting this statement was).

As I grew older it only got worse. High school was a bit of a culture shock to me because the private school I went to was tiny, and the public HS I went to (even though it was fairly prestigious, you had to take a test to get in) had upwards of 5,000 kids. It was much more racially mixed; the majority was probably Black/Latino/Asian with whites a distinct minority. I went through hell in that school because I didn't really fit in with anyone. One time, a Black girl actually approached me in the cafeteria and asked me where I was from. The implication being if I was Black and didn't speak the way most Black kids did, I had to be from a foreign country. At one point I even lied and said I was British just to get people off my back. I was constantly mocked and harrassed for being a Goth (which was a "white kid" thing, according to some folks) instead of being into the hip hop culture (which I am not and never have been) and not knowing or caring who the latest and greatest rapper was. I can't dance to save my life (which is one reason I like Goth music, all you really have to do is flail your arms around melodramatically and look sad :P) I got picked on for liking foreign films, because only rich white snobs watch subtitled movies. I kept my religion to myself, because Paganism was for bored, rebellious white kids. And when I was outed as bisexual...Jesus. I won't even get into that, except to say "black girls aren't dykes" was about the kindest thing I heard. I never talked to anyone about my relationships in general, because I've dated almost every race/ethnicity under the sun and the preponderance of white guys (and girls) in my dating history would just make me a bigger target for abuse. I was really alienated from everyone and was accused of everything from being a traitor to my race, to self-hatred, to being an "Auntie" Tom. All of these things can be summed up in the insult, "you're acting white". While I'm not very dark, I'm of a medium skin tone and there's no real mistaking my dominant ethnicity (I say "dominant" because, like most AAs, my family tree is fairly convoluted) when you look at me. So what's the deal?

What is "blackness"? What is "whiteness"? And, more importantly, who gets to decide these things? Why are these boundaries of what is and is not acceptable behavior so important to some people?

I'm just wondering if anyone else has faced similar struggles in their own lives and/or had thoughts on this issue.

[FrenchieCat]

1. I had similar struggles....

In my opinion and experience, there are two distinct issues to be addressed in what you wrote...that meet to close the circle to an arc. The two extreme characteristics are "self-hate" on the one hand and "ignorance" on the other.

On the issue of Self Hate and how it relates to ignorance...there are many folks in the Black community who are leery of those Blacks who appear to try to disassociate themselves from their "Blackness" or what is considered acceptable characteristics of Black behavior within a majority of the Black community.

It is true that there are those Black individuals (and we all may know a couple of them) who would prefer to deny their blackness and all of the history that is associated with it...but reaching for a higher education, or not wanting to speak in Ebonics does not make one a "Self-hater".

This is where the ignorance comes into play. There as still, sadly, quite a few in our community who negatively label anyone that appears to be striving for goals that do not play into the stereotypical ideal of what Blackness represents. I should say that this appears to be eminating mainly from children and poorly educated adults. It's the old House vs. Field negro mentality. There is a fear that the closer in behavior to the White man a Black person acts....the more of an enemy he/she becomes to his/her own people.

Those same individuals, however, seem to love anything "creole" and are actually impressed by those of color who speak a different language or have traveled the world. These same folks are usually accepting of individual Whites, although many appear to dislike "White" people as a whole.

There is an historical complexity to this issue that does not lend itself to much rationality or logic.

As someone who didn't quite fit in, I appreciated your question of what does "Blackness" really mean? Read my first post here to get some of my story:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x170#200

It is my view that as more African-Americans become educated and upperwardly mobile, we will see less of this. I believe that there is a love/hate relationship with the White man within the black community which has been occuring since the beginning of time.

My daughters have some of the same issues as the ones you describe and most could easily say that they act more "white" than black, IMO...if it's based on the standards you set forth within your post. Both of my children have traveled to Europe and Asia extensively and speak, write and read French fluently (oldest received an 800 out of 800 on her French SAT IIs). My 14 year old chose to attend a Chinese High school--cause she wanted to learn Mandarin. She is the only Black girl in her entire High School. She seems happy with her choice, and that's what really counts.

My oldest daughter is a Senior at an exclusive majority White/Jewish College Prep high school and has applied to Stanford, Brown and Harvard. Her school nominated her for a scholarship to Emory University in Atlanta...a great school and an historically black college. My daughter has not expressed an interest in attending that school...but the bigger question is why did her school limit her by offering her that particular scholarship nomination? She has consistently performed in the top 5% tier among students in the nation academically and is an accomplished actress, singer and ballet & modern dancer. She writes for the school newspaper and has received trophies from debate tournaments. She also received a letter of Commendation from the famous National Merit Scholarship Award group.(I may be bragging....but Hey, what's a mother to do?) So why could she not have been nominated for a scholarship at a school like Georgetown or UCLA? She should be proud of the fact that she was chosen....and Emory is an excellent school...that in my mind she should consider. But in the end, the fact remains that it is her life, and her choice as to what school she will end up at.

I have asked myself, are my children Black enough? My answer is that they cannot take off their skin and as long as they understand and honor their history and are proud of being African-Americans, they can only be good in the long run for all communities, including the Black one.

So to conclude this (maybe too long) answer.....You and only you can determine how Black you really are. As long as you know, the rest doesn't matter.

[Chovexani]

2. Very interesting post.

I remember you from that other thread, mostly because you remind me of one of my older cousins who lived in France for a number of years (she's a pastry chef and married a Frenchman).

It will take me a little while to digest it, but you put forth some interesting thoughts in that post. Your story about your daughter's college application resonated with me. My high school was a specialized science & engineering school. I didn't finish, for many reasons I won't get into now (though the stuff I mentioned in my post played a big part), but I earned my GED at 18 with a near-perfect score and applied to Brooklyn College, a top, predominately Jewish/white school in the City University of New York system. It's also within walking distance of my house. CUNY sent me a letter saying I'd been placed at Medgar Evers, which is a predominately black school that IIRC is a two year school. It's basically one step above a community college (not that there's anything wrong with that, it just wasn't where I wanted to be). This school wasn't on my list at all, and I more than met the BC requirements for GED applicants. CUNY probably saw my zip code (a black/West Indian immigrant area) and pegged me as ME material. Even though I never spent a day at ME, BC has treated me like a transfer student, which means a lot of extra red tape I have to go through.

I'm proud of my heritage. I just don't want to be limited by it by white folks OR black folks. I guess I am a free-spirited individual who resents it when anyone tries to force me into a box based on their preconceptions of who I am.

And hey, you're not bragging, any parent would be proud to have such a talented and accomplished daughter. I know I would. :)

[FrenchieCat]

4. Thanks for telling me that I wasn't bragging....

(although I was...which is, like you said natural...and hard not to)... :)

I think that at some point you will thank all of those who have crossed your path and maybe in a long run have helped made you a stronger and thoughtful person....even those who gave you a hard time.

Cause in the end, as long as you like yourself....you start to realize that the sum of your experiences have made you who you are...both the good and the bad experiences.

I also think that if the kids wouldn't have picked on you for being a bookworm and the likes, it would have been for something else. I won't address the adults who were critical of you....cause they should have known better (but ignorance was one of my points).

I think it is the very few of us who grow up in a life that just smooth and sweet with no wrinkles attached.

[fortyfeetunder]

42. I think many folks are in this place.

<<I'm proud of my heritage. I just don't want to be limited by it by white folks OR black folks. I guess I am a free-spirited individual who resents it when anyone tries to force me into a box based on their preconceptions of who I am.>>

Unfortunately our society wants us to be stereotyped, it's easier for them to pick us out.

[msgadget]

5. Frenchie, was it you who made the remark

about how people would be surprised at how conservative black churches are? Well, that got me thinking of just this subject, that being, 'what's black enough?'.

The black community is a hard nut to crack, even more so for 'outside' blacks. I've seen whites mingling freely with urban blacks who eye me suspiciously, possibly out of an innate suspicion and hostility that has nothing to do with me personally but what they're assuming about me. It bothered me when I was younger but no more. I am who I am and, given the chance, I can find a common bond with anyone. Maturity and self-confidence helps a lot.

However, I think the expansion of the black middle class has further complicated the landscape. I remember being invited to a Jack and Jill affair when I was in high school and coming home with more self-loathing than I'd ever felt before in my life. And, I often get the fish eye from the black middle class, as if they're afraid I'll single them out to sit next to or will embarrass them by breaking into a rap medley or something.

So, based solely on my experiences, black communities are not open to the unfamiliar regardless of socioeconomics. But, we are not unique in this as I've spoken to people from other ethnic groups who have similar experiences.

This is off-topic but I think this clannishness and exclusivity made it particularly easy for the religious right to widen fissures within the black community.

[FrenchieCat]

8. Msgadget, Based on the excerpt here that you wrote....

However, I think the expansion of the black middle class has further complicated the landscape. I remember being invited to a Jack and Jill affair when I was in high school and coming home with more self-loathing than I'd ever felt before in my life. And, I often get the fish eye from the black middle class, as if they're afraid I'll single them out to sit next to or will embarrass them by breaking into a rap medley or something.

Here, you are describing Chovanix's dilemma in the opposite direction. Her experience was to feel rejected because she was different in where she wasn't acting stereotypically Black enough for those who were judging her. Her Black peers and some adults felt that she was acting too "White".

On the other hand, your paragraph shows the reverse....where middle class Black folks who were giving the "fish eye" felt that you represented more Blackness than they felt comfortable with.

I personally don't think that the experience that Chovanix had is being experienced by more and more young people....because more and more children of black families are acting out of the stereotypical box than ever before.

However, the events you described happening to you will become more pronounced as more Black people become upper ward mobile. The middle Class community, as it becomes larger, will in larger numbers began to "judge" their less affluent brothers and sisters or those who don't fit quite into "their" box....and react by possibly making "fish eyes".

I think that these types of interactions between the various socioeconomic classes within one culture has been happening for a long time and, as you say, happen in most cultures, including the White one. I am sure that those who are regarded as "Trailer Trash" or "Goth" or in some way "out of the norm" are also viewed by the White middleclass as candidates for "fish eyes".

Bottom-line is that I believe that middle class judging those positioned lower or in a different place or vice versa is a natural phenomenon because stereotyping is how most people keeps an orderly world in their mind.

When one goes to visit the doctor...there is a certain expectation as to what the office should look like. Now if one walks into an office that is painted in black and orange stripes with a great big disco light on the ceiling....a certain amount of discomfort will set in. Some will choose to leave that office in search for a more "typical office", and others might want to wait and see whether the doctor is also "atypical", while others just don't give a sh*t.

To a great degree, our reactions to others are prejudiced by our personal expectations and various experiences. Unexpected realities can sometimes catch one off-guard and make one have to regroup. We can personalize it by race, but in all, I find it to be a most human attribute.

The key question is how do we best react to the "unfamiliar". Now, that's where tolerance and acceptance are useful virtues to have as personality traits.

[msgadget]

9. Hey, Frenchie!

I do understand where Chovanix is coming from and thought it was only fair to point out that the black middle class is just as likely to be alien to her. Gee, that's hardly cheering, is it, Chovanix??

Of all the classes I resent the middle class the most because opportunity and education should be eye opening, not eye narrowing. I'm middle class but my dress, demeanor and speech don't peg me as urban, rural or bourgeois so I'm likely to just flounder at a big social event, ESPECIALLY a black one.

Anyway, we both agree the intuitive calculations we make about each other upon first sight are innate, unavoidable. So, maybe those of us who have experienced this kind of repeated alienation internalized it and now project a keep-away vibe that validates the misperception. IOW, maybe all those blacks who give me the fish eye do so because they think I'm judging them. (I'm being generous, the middle class ones do look like they think I'm gonna bust a move or something!)

Fortunately, I like to put people at ease and I'm naturally inquisitive (nosy) so once I get past my shyness I'll try and start a conversation with *anybody* - hell, Godzilla would do. What's the worst that could happen? We might have absolutely nothing in common but the next time that person sees another unclassifiable black person perhaps they won't be as likely to pre-judge. Maybe the only way to break class barriers is to crash through them.

[FrenchieCat]

10. You are correct....

in that the Black middle class should know better than to judge others....but maybe that comes from a certain "Self-hate" mentality...in that they are "Fish eyeing" those who remind them of a part of themselves that they do not want to identify with, or a fear that others (such as Whites) might see them in the same light. In short, it may come from a certain insecurity transformed into contempt.

The whole "Jack and Jill" mentality that you described in one of your posting is a perfect example. I read a book about that organization and similar others and their importance in the Black middle class going back decades. It discussed the paper bag test and how important imagery of prestige was--the large car, the ostentatious outfits, the Debutante daughters, as well as education (one good thing!).

Many in the Black middle class starting long ago have wanted to be seen as a group to be placed above the majority Black community. It may not have been a terrible idea then (except for the paper bag color test) when middle class black folks had a hard time finding one another (cause they were so few), but that type of thing as long gone out of vogue. If these organizations are still around today, what they truly represent now even more than then...is a bunch of low self esteemed folks trying to make themselves feel better by announcing exclusivity.

[msgadget]

12. When status trumps culture, we all lose.

And, I had to laugh when you pointed out the possibility someone might not want whites to associate them with the likes of me (I know you didn't put it that way) because it's just so pathetically funny! But, class divides will always exist, even more so with the threatened shrinking of the middle class. I wonder if a major economic downturn will serve to unify a people or even a nation or if we'll find reasons to discriminate.

And, what the hell, I'll share an incident with you.

I had to go down South to an affair and was so conscious of not wanting to stand out as visiting from the North or showing off that I veered too far in the other direction. I'm talkin' no make-up, no jewelry, not one speck of fashion anywhere on my person. I ended up standing out alright... as the dowdiest person there. My appearance was so dreary there was speculation about my health, well-being and even how rapidly my youth was fading! Ouch. My childhood experiences in similar settings taught me that standing out was a bad thing and definitely not desirable. I've never done anything as bent since. Now if I look bad it's because I hate to shop, not because I'm trying to be invisible amongst 'my' people.

[FrenchieCat]

14. LOL.....

My sista...That lesson screams that you just have to be who you are, otherwise, who you are ain't gonna work.

Screw those folks!....is what I always tell my daughters...unless they are paying for the mortgage, putting food on your table or something useful....you can't even start caring.

I had to later amend that and told them that they should care a little about Representing (cause at some point they had taken it too far...like when my oldest wore Flip/Flops to the SF International Airport....talking about everybody wears those....considering that I am from the old school and by way of Paris, France to boot, I felt she was going further than required).

People who are sitting around waiting to judge you...that's what they want...for you to care. don't give them the satisfaction...but also don't go out of your way to prove the opposite point.

[msgadget]

16. Yeah girl,

as I said before, time and maturity works wonders. And, oh my goodness, I've had this recurring little filmstrip running in the back of my head ever since MLK. Remember when he gave his 'I Have a Dream' speech? Afterwards the camera panned to show all those well-dressed, peaceful black people leaving behind little mess. In fact in most of the old civil rights photos I see neat, dignified people. That's still a standard to aspire to and it snaps me back when I run out of the house looking like a lumberjack!


:hug:

[undergroundrailroad]

28. Hey Frenchie Cat,

The book is titled Our Kind of People: Inside America's Black Upper Class by Lawerence Otis Graham.

Undergrounrailroad

[FrenchieCat]

30. Thanks...and yes,

That was the book I read that dealth with those paper bag organizations....

[fortyfeetunder]

29. Middle class Blacks...pffft!

I read a book about that organization and similar others and their importance in the Black middle class going back decades. It discussed the paper bag test and how important imagery of prestige was--the large car, the ostentatious outfits, the Debutante daughters, as well as education (one good thing!).

Ah, yes the book, "Our Kind of People"..by Lawrence Otis Graham. The same book that suggested neither Bill Cosby nor Oprah Winfrey would be accepted by the upper crust...

I guess I'd be considered middle class, but since I came from humble beginnings, I never have fit in and hell if I will ever try to. Pffft!

[msgadget]

31. Yeah, pfffft!

LOL! It's the humble beginnings that show, I guess, and are unacceptable at a certain 'level'. But, I'm still putting that book on my Christmas list Forty...!

[tjdee]

19. I went to a Jack and Jill event in high school too....

I never went to a second one, totally don't remember the reason why though.

[msgadget]

24. Maybe it wasn't that bad an experience.

Or, maybe it was so awful you've repressed the memory!! :silly: I'm sure there are perfectly normal, happy Jack and Jill...uh, graduates...allumni. I recently heard about one branch (?) that takes the kids to African American historical spots in their area. Someone I knew was trying to get her daughter in and it was a process that included home interviews and that sort of thing. It can't POSSIBLY be like it was years ago. (could it?)

[American liberal]

32. sorry for my ignorance but

what's Jack and Jill events

[FrenchieCat]

33. A social organization

that middle class children would join to "socialize" with other Black middle class children. Started back...who knows? the 30s??? Back then, it was considered the organization to shout out that one was "la creme de la creme". In order to join back then, you had to pass the paper Bag test, i.e., your skin could not be darker than a brown paper bag. Further, usually you needed referrals and "connections".

Many of the rules changed, especially the paper bag one later on...but it was too late; Jack & jill Organization had already built a reputation as a "Snob" Club.

[American liberal]

34. no wonder my family didn't know about it then

my parents were middle-class lefties, not snobs. :)

[Chovexani]

36. Oh I remember J&J

There were a couple at the private school I went to. They were effete snobs who were more vicious than some of the white kids that picked on me. Why anyone would want to join is beyond me, but I was approached by them because of my academic record a couple of times.

That was before I dyed my hair purple, though. :P

[bobbieinok]

21. you might want to check on this...I don't think Emory is a historically bl

black school. It's a historically Methodist school with an EXTREMELY HIGH REPUTATION.

[FrenchieCat]

22. Will do...

Thanks. I will look it up on the NET. Hadn't had a chance yet, cause my daughter just told me about this a few days ago....

My husband is the one I got my information from. I should have known better! LOL!

[GOPFighter]

3. I hear echos of my wife's background

She experienced some of the same problems you describe, but not nearly as intense. Still, it left a deep impression in her mentally. Fortunately a relative convinced her to enroll in a black college (Hampton) where race was just not an issue. It turned her life around. For the first time in her life she made some deep and lasting friendships. Sometimes, though, something will happen to remind her of her HS experiences and the bitterness will boil over. It really makes me sad.

Thank you for telling your story. You sound like a stronger person because of your experiences. As long as there are frightened, insecure, small-minded people in this world, they will continue to pick on and make life hell for anyone who dares to be different. Bastards!

[HamdenRice]

6. It's getting worse as the black community (like America) is "dumbed down"

I had a somewhat similar experience as yours, but this was many years ago. I assume the HS you are talking about is Brooklyn Tech -- I went to Bronx Science! I lived in southeast Queens (rap was invented around the corner -- Russel Simons lived down the street!)


I did not go to private schools, but in the 1960s we had bussing, and I was bussed to predominantly white schools. Around my first week there, I was diagnosed as having a speech impediment and was re-instructed in how to speak white Queens-ese (from southern/black "Ah go toe the stoe" to "I go tu the staaw").

But growing up in 1960s, the black community was more accepting. Remember this was a period when many black leaders, writers, artists and entertainment figures were fiecely articulate. Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, James Baldwin, Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee, James Farmer, Sammy Davis -- all were articulate and had their own unique accents. Did James Farmer speak "white"? I don't know -- he certainly had an eccentric way of speaking. Did Jimmy Baldwin talk white? He certainly didn't talk like he came from Harlem, but he also did not speak like the typical New Yorker.

It was possible to be smooth, articulate and distincly black. Marvin Gaye would be considered "notreal enough" by hip hop standards, yet in his day he absolutely defined black male cool.

Sometime in the early 1990s, record companies began promoting the gangsta image and dumbing down the culture. Ever listen to P Diddy try to talk about politics? "Like you know I'm jus tryin to keep it real and like yawl need to get out and make a message and stuff its like you either vote or die..." That's the best we can do?

I'm sorry for the experience you have had. It's a much bigger problem in the culture.

[msgadget]

7. That's an interesting perspective, Hamden

Do you think the way people classify each other also has to do with perceptions regarding class, stature or the lack thereof? Upon meeting someone a survey of sorts is performed which yields a response based on all the things that define the surveyor. If the subject doesn't fit into a familiar or easily definable category...


Puleeeze tell you got rid of the Queens accent, Hamden. ROFL!

[HamdenRice]

15. It's part class perception, yes

but there is also a much more culturally enforced conformity in the black community compared to years ago. One of the reasons I can't follow hip hop music is that everyone looks exactly the same to me! Is that racist or what? I mean there's the do-rag tatooed gangsta and the Little Kim 'ho look and that's it.

Remember when black artists were eccentric? Sly and the Family, Funkadelic, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye in (gasp) a suit and tie -- all could not survive in today's culture, because they would be accused of "not keeping it real", as though there is only one reality in the black community. It just occured to me in fact how oppressive that term is -- there is only one reality.

And as far as class goes, this modern conformity transcends class. Middle class black kids have to act as alike like ghetto kids.

Oh yeah, I did loose my Queens accent!

[msgadget]

17. I sure do!

Andre 3000 is so captivating because he doesn't try to fit the 'cool' mold (is cool even 'cool' to say/write anymore?). I can't tell many rappers apart either, though a pattern of tattoo or excessive dental work will occasionally lend clues..:eyes:

Modern conformity...yes, I notice that when I pull up at a light and the hip hop is blasting from the white kid's car next to me but middle class blacks might be comfortable in their blackness in their integrated neighborhoods and not necessarily in an urban or rural one. That's pretty natural though, different environments and all that.

[qanda]

11. You are not kidding

My poor children (6 and 8) are constantly told from "our people" that they speak white-- WHAT is that all about? I would almost expect it from children (perhaps they don't know any better), but when adults say stuff like it makes me crazy.

[msgadget]

13. Doesn't it make you want to slap somebody??

It's so stigmatizing and demeaning to give this message to a child, that speaking well is foreign to their particular race. Growing up is hard enough without this false concern. You must learn the right words to whisper in their ear to counteract such ignorance.

[Chovexani]

35. I've been busy lately and unable to really DU

But yeah I went to Brooklyn Tech. I got into Science (actually I missed Stuyvesant by 20 goddamn points :argh:), but the commute was way too much for me so I ended up going to BT.

I completely agree with you about the dumbing down of black culture. Hell you don't even have to go back to the '60s, look at the Harlem Renaissance...all the great writers, musicians and poets...it was COOL back then to be bohemian and dance to your own beat. WTF happened?

I blame P. Shitty and Russell Simmons. Not all of us want to wear our pants off our ass and sound like a moron, thanks.

[tjdee]

18. Me too--I also dig white guys, which makes me OH such a sellout!

:eyes:

Glad there are others.
Apparently I "want to be white/wish I were white" because:

My kid is bi-racial.
I don't like hip hop (mostly).
I read a lot.
I talk "white".
I dress "white".
I have dated white men.

It's so fucking ridiculous, and it still makes me very angry when I hear this from my relatives.
With my peers, it has gotten better as I've grown into an adult though. It was particularly bad at my inner city grammar schools, which would have been aghast at all the "white talkin'" black kids at my suburban high school.

[FrenchieCat]

20. I can relate....but I think that this "fitting in or not" thing

will improve over time. It will probably be much easier for our children than it was for many of us. I certainly hope that being bi-racial these days is easier than it was for me....a product of a '50s interacial union.

In my teens I was nearly told by a couple of older folks that I needed to decide which way I was going to go. Beauty of it all is that as I got older, I ended up going many ways. I find myself totally at ease where-ever...and can identify with whomever. I can speak the Queen's Ebonics....or go straight up business, or to "Valley Speak" ...all with a slight French accent, if you can imagine!LOL!

It's an advantage, not a disadvantage to be versed in more than one culture.

I will admit to unfortunately having been ashamed of my White-French Mother back when I was about 13 years old. That was a time when I was trying to fit in to the Black world of the early '70s....and Mom kept messing me up. It's not like those around me didn't realize that I was mixed....but in my own twisted little mind, I didn't want to confirm the suspicions as to "not stick out". I was already dealing with the accent...didn't need another strike against me....so I thought. It's a kid's thing, I believe...belonging at all cost. However, it is a truly sad thing that bi-racial children should even had to deal with that dumb sh*t......kinda like "Imitation of Life" in reverse--Which was, by the way, one of my favorite movie when I was younger.

I think that this generation is very different. My daughter's High School sweetheart is Jewish...and she has not really even thought of the question of race...beyond her stating that they would have "cute" kids. They traveled together to the New England area this summer to visit colleges and so that she could meet his family (He is originally from Cape Cod, in Boston and still has family there). She met his Grandmother, his aunts, uncles and cousins --spend multiple nights at various family homes(separate bedrooms of course--she's 17 for goodness sakes!) and did not relate any "horror" stories to me relating to her race and meeting his family. In remembering Boston from the '70...it appears that times may have changed....(or else his family is an exception?)

My baby teen daughter currently has a crush on a Chinese FOB (Fresh of the Boat...her term, not mine). She listens exclusively to Kpop(Korean pop music), Jpop (Japanese), and Cpop (Chinese Pop). Her favorite singer is Boa, a famous Korean singer...a la Britney Spears mold. She vacationed in Thailand this summer (my brother lives in Bangkok) dresses like she's from Japan, and speaks broken Mandarin and some Cantonese. She goes to a Chinese School, but she also sings in our Black Baptist Church Teen Choir....and truly has friends of every race or combination thereof.

Maybe it's because we are in the S.F.Bay Area.....but to me it does look like things are changing for the better.....never mind how slowly.

[American liberal]

23. Thanks for starting this thread

Hey Chovexani-

I still am a nonconformist--don't fit into black society or white, so I quit trying and learned how to be OK with me.

Today I cherish my heritage. Check this out: By blood I am black, Native American, German, and Yugoslovian (or Hungarian--I forget which). By upbringing (I'm adopted--and these are the roots that matter most to me) I'm black, Native American, Polish and English: My dad was raised Southern Baptist and mom is a Jew from Upstate New York. I grew up in a middle-class predominately white suburb, have mostly only dated white men, can't stand rap music (especially that which espouses violence or degrades and disparages women) or Country & Western (though I LOVE bluegrass and certain rockabilly--typically eclectic tastes). My parents are atheist/agnostic, so I was not raised in any religion, although I am deeply spiritual. I have lived in redneck rural environments, conservative white environments, and culturally diverse environments, never lived in an all-black neighborhood but used to stay with relatives on the weekends who did. One relative had me go with his step-daughter to her school once (he was trying to see if I wanted to move in with him and his family). Because I am biracial I felt like I stuck out like a piece of rye bread in a sea of pumpernickel. Then again, when I was a ski bum in CO, I totally related to Oprah when she was quoted in the local paper as saying she felt like a raisin in a bowl of sugar.

Like you I struggled to fit in most of my life. In addition to reading a lot and not being attractive to boys in 6th grade when they started "pairing off" and having boy-girl parties, I come from an ultra-lefty family so we were very different from most of our neighbors. Growing up in that environment was rough. I remember that I used to wish I had straight blond hair instead of the brown curly locks that women pay so much money for today.

All that said, I am proud of my heritage and all the experiences--good and bad--that have shaped me into the person I am today. I see all the hate that exists in the world and am grateful to have been raised to practice tolerance, acceptance, and compassion. Although I embrace issues that can be perceived as "black" (e.g., job discrimination, being followed around in stores--even in this day and age of super security cameras--and other forms of covert racism) or "Jewish" (e.g., anti-Semitism), I consider myself biracial (interestingly, all of my siblings consider themselves black--the one-drop rule, I guess; nevertheless they all married white people) and a member of the human race.

One of the things growing older has done for me is that I don't care so much anymore what others think of me. I am not trendy. I hate shopping for clothes and going to malls in general. Small talk annoys me. I still read a lot. I am who I am. I do not speak in Ebonics. My favorite attire is jeans and sneakers. I love animals and gardening and do not drink or use drugs (anymore :) ). I am in a predominately white profession (publishing) and make a point of instilling cultural sensitivity into whatever I am working on.

I ruminate from a middle-class, liberal perspective: How sad and discouraging that there are more black men in prison than in college, that drugs and teen pregnancy is such a problem in the inner city. I would like to be a role model like Marian Wright Edelman and make a difference in the lives of children who are just trying to "make 18."

I remember several years ago going to the high school graduation of my then-boyfriend's daughter. She's white. Went to a mixed high school in a liberal suburb (about 60:40 black to white). I remember sitting up in the nosebleed section of a giant (to me) stadium looking down on a sea of blue caps and gowns. Out of a graduating class of at least 600, they selected the top 20 or so academic achievers and called their names one at a time and had them stand so we could cheer for them. Not one of them was African American. And that is the weird backwards cultural thing that pisses me off more than anything: It's not cool to be smart. Like what you experienced, young people of color who do well academically are labeled as sell-outs or trying to be white. What is up with that? Who came up with that bullshit?

I believe the media has created a wider cultural divide. I think fear holds people back more than anything. And, although I've been called a nigger (more than once) and an oreo and struggled a lot during my most impressionable years to find my niche (even if it meant simply being a completely out of the mainstream fringe dweller), I wouldn't trade my perspective for anything. Don't you think it makes us freer and less encumbered to conform to anyone's ideal? We can be the role models for the future. One of my siblings predicts that someday the world's population (if we don't destroy ourselves first) will be varying shades of brown and that the black-white thing just won't matter so much anymore.

I know I'm rambling but I want to make one more point before I forget: According to my European friends, it's really only here in America that there are such hang-ups about race. It's so deeply engrained in our history, and people are sooooooo conscious and sensitive to it here. Although I've not traveled much outside of the United States, I am told that it's not like that in other countries, which is why many black intellectuals and performers--and intellectual performers--lived overseas (e.g. Maya Angelou, James Baldwin, Duke Ellington, W.E.B. Du Bois); they felt liberated from the oppression and hatred that exists in this society--oppression that exists to this day, if only more covertly.

As you can see, I have no answers, just more commentary, much of it surface level. But this is my experience and I am pleased to have the opportunity to share part of it in this forum. Thanks again for starting this thread. It's been interesting reading.

Peace,
AL

[Pithy Cherub]

25. Interesting and powerful perspective.

My family would be classified as black or African American. But we would also be able to field many spots for the United Nations - my nieces speak french, Spanish and a cousin married a Samoan. My mother is a direct descendate of Native Americans, my grandfather had great blue eyes and my brother married a couple of really great white ladies.

That is only mentioned because it immediately brings up issues of understanding and incorporating tolerance. There are gay people in my family and the tolerance level is now no sweat - because we have no clue who is going to show up or with whom. Hair preparation for an event is hilarious because it seriously runs the gamut!

There have been serious discussions about what answer do you put on the government forms when asked about ethnicity. There are good solid underpinnings and reasonings for the answers when the decision is finally made.

One of my 4 year old nieces brought into sharp relief how much the tolerance thing was internalized. Because the family didn't use black, white or anything as a particular answer to describing people-not going to say always :) she did not have a vocabulary pre-built to make distinctions. While at her grandmothers she wanted to visit her other grandmother - her request was, "May I please go visit my chocolate grandmother now?" Years later when asked which designation, black or white did she even want to choose for the form...she said well you know, its hard - do they have chocolate chip cookie on the form, cuz I am all put together and mixed up just like a chocolate chip cookie.

[msgadget]

26. What a success story!

I love that...'chocolate grandmother' and chocolate chip cookie. You've got a great family, Cherub. :party:

[Pithy Cherub]

27. Thank you very much!

Success is borne of many failures. We are still trying and awareness of one another as human beings rather than color first will continue to make people much more tolerant. As we all KNOW - it hasn't been easy!
:hug:

[Karenina]

37. From 2nd grade to senior in HS

I never saw another black face in a classroom, nor did I ever have a teacher with skin color like mine. I was often physically accosted with the demand that I "TALK RIGHT!"

My family is the U.N. and up til' 8, I thought that was normal as we lived in doctors' housing where everyone in the neighborhood was from some far-off land. I got screamed at in LOTS OF DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.


I got LOTS O' ACCENTS I can go with now. Unlike those white folks who think they can paste a Canadian flag and "pass," I ain't white and do the speech pattern/body language thing with little help from my summers as a teenie up in the Northland.

"A place to stand, a place to go, ONTARI-ARI-ARIO"

Next I gotta lose my Ami accent in Yurp. Ich brauche PEDAGOGIC dafür. Um Ulm und herum... THE RAIN IN SPAIN FALLS MAINLY ON THE PLAINS!

And THIS is just TOO FUNNY!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2806768&mesg_id=2806768

What makes me so SAD is how much has remained stuck in idiocy. What year were you born Chovexani? I be over a half-century...

[msgadget]

38. Oh, that post was almost hilarious!

Can you imagine, hiring a black guy to play to a room full of bigots who then ended up being too uncomortable with that ONE black guy to spew their filth?!! ROFL!

[Karenina]

39. Whaddya want?

Da dude SOUNDED WHITE on da phone. :shrug:

[Swamp Rat]

40. Race is a construct - we are ALL humans.

That said, on some level I can relate to everyone in this thread.

[Karenina]

41. Back to ONE!!!

:kick:

[Brewman_Jax]

43. I know the feeling

My mother made sure that my brothers and I were culturally diverse so that we could function in the "world of the majority" (my words). We went to museums, the planetarium, libraries, metaphyiscal bookstores, farmer's markets, and other such places where black people are not in the majority. Grew up in mixed neighborhoods as dad went up the corporate ladder. Didn't go to a standard black church.

My neighborhood and schools of youth were diverse, 'til white flight set in. I watch my HS go from 25% black to 85% in 2 yrs. I remember a telling comment went I started at my new elementary school, which was about 20% black at the time. I was 1 of 4 non-white kids in the class. I was 1 of 2 black boys, add 1 black girl and 1 asian girl. The total class size was 20, almost 50-50 male-female. On my arrival, one of the white kids said to the black girl, "Look, Sonia, you can have a boyfriend." (that kind of white folks thinking hasn't changed :eyes: ) I thought, Good grief! I'm in a room full of girls and they're already going to limit me to only those who look similar!

I was the stereotypical HS nerd, small size, always reading, in the accelerated classes. I was (still am) a fan of rap and hip-hop, but add zydeco and electronica to the mix. Played HS soccer, still do, but in the old guys' league :D Playing in my younger days, I get asked if I'm from the US, just because black people from the US "don't" play soccer. That gets old in a hurry. :eyes:

Being interracial in ancestry, I've been told that I look "kinda" black. Been accused of being Mexican/Hispanic more than a few times--by black people, and even by Hispanics, who speak to me in Spanish. (I get a kick out of that. :D ) White folks want to know "what are you?" so they can put me in the box--or they don't care, I'm just "non-white" and leave it there.

Dating is interesting. Because my interests are so eclectic, most of my girlfriends (the rare occasions I have gone beyond 2 dates ) have been white. Personal ads, well that's another thread. Leave it to say that the ones who show up in my search aren't usually looking for me. :( Single and just into my 40's, the married guys congratulate me, and I don't know why. :shrug: I just didn't want to repeat my parents' mistake.

Good topic, gave me a good outlet. Thanks. :hi:

[Karenina]

44. It's freeing

to decline the "box" into which too many try to stuff us all, eh?
Enjoyed reading your post! :hi:

[GOPFighter]

45. Nice post, Lurking_Argyle

I enjoy reading about other people's experiences. You said you don't want to repeat your parent's mistakes, but based on your post it sounds like they were pretty savy.

Your mention of white flight brought a chuckle. I live in what is now a very diverse neighborhood. The whites who fled my neighborhood as it became more colorful were not the kind of people I wanted to live around, anyway. They are now living way out in the outer, outer suburbs, holding their breath, always aware of the dark faces moving in, preparing for the inevitable day when they must pick up and move once again. Bwahahahahahahahaha! :evilgrin:

GOPFighter

[Brewman_Jax]

48. Thanks

I didn't think that anyone would respond. :hi:

My parents' mistake was getting married to each other. They've been together over 40 years, but hardly in love with each other. Mom was raised by her grandparents after her mother died. She was sheltered and poorly prepared to pick a good man, or take care of herself if she guessed wrong. (she guessed wrong. :( ) Dad left California to return to help his parents. He got married because that was expected at that time and you got talked about if you past 30 and weren't married and making grandchildren. Neither duty was what he really wanted to do, and he's been a miserable SOB since. :(

I remember during the time of white flight, everyone moved out toward Stone Mountain. But, there was nothing out there yet. No cable, no major stores, not much at all. I heard the complaints that cable was months away and why didn't we stay. They forgot basic physics: two things can't occupy the same space at the same time. If they move out, "those people" can't move in. :think:

Funnier thing, that's exactly what happened, those inevitable days came again and again. Now, they're out TOO far and have started to move back toward town. But now it's the grown-up children of those white fliers, who appear to be less afraid and less prejudiced than their parents.

[jmm]

46. Sometimes I love messing with people

when they try to put me in a box. I'll say if it was so important then it would be obvious and you wouldn't need to ask.

[undergroundrailroad]

47. Great post Lurking_Argyle!

Mina :hi:

[Brewman_Jax]

49. LTNS

:hi: Glad to see you, too!

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noiretextatique]

51. fascinating story

i grew up in compton for the first 12 years of my life. i never saw a white person in my neighborhood, and there was only one mexican family. white people worked in the stores (as managers), at the banks, at the schools, and they were the police. mostly...they were the police. they were not your friends, some were nice, like some of my elementary school teachers, and others you knew to stay away from.

i remember being under house arrest during the watts riots, and watching police cars drive by with shotguns handing out the window. i also remember the surge of energy and excitement that was building up in the community...it was called the black power movement. everything black was not only good, but something to be proud of. i read the black panther and the muslim newspapers. i let my hair grow out into afro, as did most of my friends and family. people called each other brother and sister, and made it a point to speak to each other on the streets. i learned (a little) about african history and american history and the intersection of the two that landed my ancestors over here.

my parents were like many of the parents in that neighborhood: refugees from the segregrated south. they worked in aerospace or in government: for the folks who needed their labor, or for the folks who could not discriminate against them (at least in hiring). we travelled to the south every summer to see the family, and of course, most of them lived in segregated neighborhoods, so i was surrounded by black people there also. and all the characters...my uncles, aunts and cousins, who spanned the spectrum from chemist and flight attendant and preacher and educator, to pimp, and crackhead and two dollar ho. and all my lovely, gracious grandmothers, and elegant, dignified grandfathers...what an honor it was to know that, and to be loved by them. that love binds you to their struggle...to the struggle, and it sustains you. when i worked in san francisco, every day i'd prepare for some strange encouter in the elevator (what is it with white folks and elevators?!) by remembering helping my grandmother clean the ft. worth dept of water and power offices. my grandmother had a good job as a janitor for the ft. worth dept of water and power. i should also say that my grandmother was a very fair-skinned woman, so i remember the looks she got when walking down the street with all her black grandchildren. not the black folks...they know the deal. but when we walked downtown where the white folks were, well, that was my first taste of that especial hatred.

my cousins and their friends used to make fun of the way we spoke...they said we "sounded white."
a few people in compton said that too, but it never bothered me much because i knew white society would make no distinction between me and those who thought i "talked white." besides which, and i had such a positive, affirming experience by growing up surrounded by black people...i knew i belonged, and that the richness of the culture was in my being and soul.

ah...those were great times. then, the killing started...the drug wars and the gangs. our community was overrun with drugs and violence...and fear. children starting to die, and school became a place where you could get shot, or beat down, or worse.

i gotta run now...but i'll do part two later on.

[mark414]

52. fascinating story yourself

:thumbsup: thanks for sharing :)

[AspenRose]

53. In a word, yes

Let's just say I was (and sometimes am still) uncomfortable being around groups of other folks like me due to the severe teasing I received for being so nonconformist. That got translated into my being a snob or being uppity or "acting white" when I was only desperately trying to preserve my dignity.

[NOLALady]

54. Other folks like you.

You mean the folk that share some of the same ancestry?

I'm a nonconformist. I've been called "stuck up" "white girl". That doesn't bother me as much as, weird, mental and similar labels.

The people like me that I feel most comfortable around are nonconformists, who may or may not share my ancestry.

[Chovexani]

55. Me too.

I'm a self-proclaimed freak, and proud. I'm more comfortable around other freaks, regardless of ethnicity.

They tend to be far more accepting of ethnic differences too. In all my years of being involved in the goth scene, I've never had anyone get racial with me or make me feel like I didn't belong because of my color. The NY scene is incredibly diverse. Hell, the band I was in consisted of myself, an Asian and a Latino.

[AspenRose]

56. Yep.

"Oreo," "stuck up white girl," "high yellow heiffer," etc. ad nauseam. :-(

[bliss_eternal]

57. Nice to know...

...there's others like me on DU. :hug::hi:

Heard that crap my entire life. I don't anymore, because I finally figured out the environments that tend to perpetuate such stereotypes, and I now avoid them. I just know people with such ideas just aren't "my tribe" so to speak. I like the term "non-conformist".

It's unfortunate that some people of color, still feel the need to be divisive with one another. It's refreshing when I see and hear open-minded people of color that don't denigrate others within their culture for just being themselves--people that don't feel the need to toss around labels or accusations that some are "less" of their culture than others. As if there is only one way to embrace one's culutral identity and sense of self.

[psychmommy]

58. just being here sets us apart from most people.

you have found your peers and support group. here you are in a group of black folks and you fit in. i never felt like i fit in anywhere and then i realized that i wasn't supposed to. i have things in common w/alot of different people but more so i like to learn what i can from different people. i am sponge baby soaking it all in.

[SemperEadem]

59. I was just accused of first, being white, and then

being black and acting like I was white by some idiot black woman who almost hit me on the way in to work the other day. I mean, she got out of her car and acted, well, what I want to call her is not for polite conversation, but suffice it to say, she completely lost what little dignity she may have possessed.

I was like "what does my race have to do with the fact that you weren't paying attention to where you were driving and you almost caused me to drive into oncoming traffic?"

Then it wasnt' enough that she's unleashed her stupidity, talking about my blackness, she then starts talking about my car being beat up--which it is. You almost need to drive a beat up car in DC because of people like her. I call my 82 280zx "The Scourge and Terror", but I own her and can say that--no one else can :P . I said to her "my car might be beat up, but my retirement account is phat, rolling on 18's... and at least I've got a job." Interesting that she had no ignorant retort for that and went back to her car.