We have a terrific oppurtunity...

[redsoxliberal]

I've been visiting the Wes Clark forum because I think that if Dean runs for DNC chair and wins it, he will be a good guy to get behind for president. Consider how much power the grassroots would have if that were the set-up!
Anyhow, there is a thread there proposing that they help out Dean as chair of the DNC. In return, we would help Clark in his potential 08 run.
I ask that those of you that go into the Clark forum to check it out do not bash those bashing Dean, or even defend him. It is their forum, and it is their right. Many of the comments are very positive, and we are now trying to build support for a possible forum of a Clark/Dean alliance. I think this could be very positive.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=235x891#1107

[Tom Rinaldo]

1. I just want to note...

as a Clarkie who posted on the thread that redsoxliberal mentioned above, that most if not all of the Clarkies who either already are, or are considering backing Dean for DNC Chair, are not expecting anything specificly back in return. It is either seen as a good or bad idea to us, and those of us who see it as a good thing are glad to help simply because it is a good thing. I am in that group.

P.S. I only came over here to post because redsoxliberal left a post at the Clark supporter forum saying that he had started this thread, and I thought that it was important to add this clarification. Best wishs. I am among those who have very positive feelings about your guy, and I love what you all are doing with Democracy for America.

[redsoxliberal]

2. cool...

wondering whether we should also post something about this somewhere that is not the DFA or Clark forum... perhaps some people in the lounge or general discussion would be interested in getting this going. I think it’s a great idea and would be very, very good for the democratic party. I don’t think many dems would argue that Clark for prez and Dean at the DNC is exponentially better than Kerry for prez and McCaullife as DNC chair.

[Tom Rinaldo]

3. RSL, I am uncomfortable using space in this forum...

...to discuss anything to do with the possible merits of Clark running for President in 2008. This is not the right place for that, certainly it is not the place for a Clarkie to be discussing it. Speaking as a Clarkie, I will just say I have found that people of sound mind and good intent are capable of disagreeing about just about anything.

If you are interested in pursuing the theme of your post with some supporters of both men, I doubt this is the place for it, though I leave it of course up to the members of this forum to decide that. You might want to try starting a thread about it here instead: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=108

edited to fix link

[redsoxliberal]

5. here is the forum proposal

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=108x117823

[madfloridian]

6. I have very firm feelings, because I read the thread.

You can not ally when your purpose is to keep Dean "out of the way" in the next primaries.

I find that a little much to use that as a reason. The former Clark supporters here locally are just great folks. MANY of the Clark people at DU are good folks, too. There is a small group who do nothing but try to marginalize us, no matter how nice some of us play.

Most of us who support Dean and now DFA are quite intelligent people, and we know that much of the attacks were organized during the primaries. I don't want it to get that way again. But I see it happening.

I like Wes Clark, I do not wish to support him for president. Hell, I am not even sure we will have a country to have an election in next time.

I think and I have said before, that we need to deal with past issues before getting to new ones. Am I outspoken, yes, I am. I think is way past time. I think what Clinton did during the primaries indicated that the Little Rock folks are not done yet. I am not sure that is wise.

I am only one voice at this DFA forum, but I never intend it to be silenced again. Clinton called Dean congressional supporters, told them to vote for Clark because Dean supported the civil unions bill and was unelectable. Clark also was for civil unions, I think. Is there a little irony there? Sometimes when there is an elephant in the living room, it needs to be addressed. If it isn't, it gets more unpleasant.

I am tired of being attacked. I do not attack, but I am accused of it over and over.. I am very tired of it. Questioning the actions and motives of the party's leaders is NOT attacking.

I am all for alliances, but not for the purpose of "keeping Dean out of the way" next primaries.

[janx]

7. "out of the way" ?

?

[madfloridian]

8. There are several comments about that.

Here is one. I am not being ugly, I just want folks to be honest. They have forced us to defend every word, every thing Howard Dean ever did, and we are pretty good at it.

I don't like being used. I am all for cooperation, just not on this level.

SNIP.."How about we make common cause with the Deniacs and do what we can to get Dean in as the new DNC chair. This would have two benefits that I could see, the first being that we would have a real Democrat running the party, the second that we would not have to contend with him in the Primaries...."

That was a nice comment about Dean, but the other motive is a little questionable.

[janx]

11. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm about to spit Diet Dr. Pepper all over my keyboard!

I just read that thread!


RSL cracks me up!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. madfloridian, I agree with the basic thrust of your post

While perhaps it would be tactically helpful to Dean, assuming he wants the DNC Chair, if some Democrats supported him for that position because they thought that would help clear the path for some other candidate to run in 2008, that is NOT the basis of a real Alliance, an arrangement perhaps, but not an Alliance.

I will pop into the thread that RSL started at a neutral Forum from time to time. Perhaps we will share more thoughts there, but I understand your reaction. I will just say that there isn't any official "Clarkie position" to get Dean "out of the way". Some people may feel that way but there is no "group think", and I suppose if someone is fully up front that they hope Dean becomes DNC Chair because that would get him "out of the way", then there's nothing dishonest about it either. It's just politics.

Personally I would love Dean to be DNC Chair if he wants it because I don't think anyone else could do a better job than he would and I don't want that position to fall into the wrong hands. Beyond that I find much to admire about both Dean and most of his supporters. I suspect it would be best for me to leave it at that here. This is a Dean Forum. Maybe some interesting further discussions will develop elsewhere. Maybe I will see you there. Good luck.

[madfloridian]

14. Thanks, nice post.

:hi:

[belle]

26. I actually can't even think about '08 right now...

That is, I feel like I want to concentrate on both shorter-term and longer-term, if that makes sense. The reason I'm attracted to DFA is because it's putting its energy into building from the ground up. Which is was the extreme right-wing did twenty-thirty years ago, and look how that paid off for them. *And* they didn't end up abandoning the Republican party; they just mutated it.

I just don't even want to think about the presidential race right now. The landscape's very likely going to look very very different in a couple of years, also.

[JNelson6563]

4. I think it's smart to be allies

The grass-roots support of Clark is strong. I think we should be allies. I know there was a lot of bad blood during the primaries but that is long over.

We are all on the same team and we should work together to achieve our goals.

As to who to back in 08, I won't commit to anyone until I see what they do from now till primary time.

Julie

[Cheswick2.0]

9. Redsoxliberal

I think it is too early to start planning for the 2008 primaries. I also do not remember you from the 2004 primaries either here or on the DFA blog. I am questioning your motives.

But even thinking it is too early I can guarantee you that DFA members are NOT going to be more interested in a Clark presidency than they are a Dean presidency.

Like MF, I wonder why I would want to ally with people who are trying to get Dean out of the way?

Finally, Clark would have to run for office, govern and prove to me that he is a democrat in more than campaign rhetoric only before I would support him for President. Talk is cheap. I do not forget that he was encouraged to run to stop Dean. Like I have said before, the best thing about Clark is his grassroots supporters.

Again this whole thing is a bit ridiculous four years out. We have work to do planning for 2006 when we will have lots of DFA candidates to support for local state and national office. We are rebuilding the party and taking back power from the corporately corrupted and entrenched party insiders in DC. Join us.

[janx]

12. "a bit ridiculous" ?

A BIT?

Oh my gawd I can't stand this...I'm laughing so hard!

Ches, RSL is only 16 or 17! And s/he means well. That's what makes it even funnier!!!!!!!!

[redsoxliberal]

13. i was very mucha newbie during the primaries

I only found DU during the primaries, then left for a loing while until around August for the election. I supported Dean throughout the entire process until he eventually dropped out. Dean is going to run for the chair of the DNC, the Clarkies can help us get him there. We need to heal old wounds and move on.

[janx]

15. RSL, you're great.

But we don't know yet whether or not Dean is interested in doing such a thing. He has not decided yet.

Other than that, I'm all for alliances.

[sonias]

16. Alliances are great and I say let's forge them

However, I want to know specifically where it says Dean can't run for President in '08 if he takes the DNC chair. Howard Dean was in Austin last weekend meeting with some of the Democracy for Texas crew on retreat. He was asked by Fran Vincent (DFT leader) about this DNC job. Howard Dean told her that there is no truth to the rumor floating out there that the DNC chair can not make a run for President. Folks it's like any other job, when you make the decision to run, if you have a conflict of interest like he would, then you quit your job. Simple as that. The DNC or DLC or the party as a whole can not stop Howard Dean from running if he wants to. They would just have to come up with someone to fill the DNC spot until an election. Big deal, I'm sure we could live with it. Three years of having Howard Dean in that slot would be better than three with Tom Vilsack.

One other point is that Howard as of last weekend had not made a decision about whether he wanted to the DNC job. That means we need to let him know we want him there. So do your part and let him know you want him to run.

We want Howard. We want Howard! We want Howard!

Sonia

[PassingFair]

17. Sonia,

This info needs its own thread!
This is GREAT news.

[CarbonDate]

18. We have to find common ground

I'll be up front in that I'm a Clarkie. That said, the grass roots support between Clark and Dean is so similar that if we were to unite, we'd be an unstoppable force in the primaries. When Wes Clark dropped out before the Wisconsin primaries, I voted for Howard Dean for just that reason.

The one thing the two camps have in common is the passion for their particular candidate. Unfortunately, I think any alliance would have to be initiated at the top. I.e., between Dean and clark themselves. Both camps feel way too strongly about their particular candidate to abandon him in favor of the other. Dean as DNC chair and Clark as the candidate seems like a good idea to me, but Deanies might feel it should be the other way around.

I like Howard Dean. I think he'd make a great DNC chair. I like Wesley Clark; I think he'd make a great President. As far as not having to contend with Dean in the primaries, I'll honestly say that I'm more worried about the entrenched power than I am about the other grass-roots camp. If Clark doesn't run, I'll happily back Dean. With a smile on my face. Promise. But as far as any alliance is concerned, like I said, it's between Clark and Dean to find common cause and unite; we can't do it for them. If it does happen, though, it'll be a great day for America.

[madfloridian]

19. I would like for you to read a post above of mine.

It gives my feelings on the subject. I was quite clear and consise. It is in this forum above.

I don't think it is wise to talk alliances without getting to the root of the primary attacks.

[janx]

20. It definitely will. Definitely.

And in the meantime, I hope that all of us can contribute to do something about 2006, because that's important too, and it'll be here before you know it!

Nice of you to drop by with a kind and hopeful message! :hi:

[madfloridian]

21. Here is my post above. It is very important to me...the issues I mention

You can not ally when your purpose is to keep Dean "out of the way" in the next primaries. That was mentioned in your group.

I find that a little much to use that as a reason. The former Clark supporters here locally are just great folks. MANY of the Clark people at DU are good folks, too. There is a small group who do nothing but try to marginalize us, no matter how nice some of us play.

Most of us who support Dean and now DFA are quite intelligent people, and we know that much of the attacks were organized during the primaries. I don't want it to get that way again. But I see it happening.

I like Wes Clark, I do not wish to support him for president. Hell, I am not even sure we will have a country to have an election in next time.

I think and I have said before, that we need to deal with past issues before getting to new ones. Am I outspoken, yes, I am. I think is way past time. I think what Clinton did during the primaries indicated that the Little Rock folks are not done yet. I am not sure that is wise.

I am only one voice at this DFA forum, but I never intend it to be silenced again. Clinton called Dean supporters, told them to vote for Clark because Dean supported the civil unions bill and was unelectable. Clark also was for civil unions, I think. Is there a little irony there? Sometimes when there is an elephant in the living room, it needs to be addressed. If it isn't, it gets more unpleasant. (Then this week-end Clark seemed to be changing a little on the civil unions and abortion issues...too questioning of them)

I am tired of being attacked. I do not attack, but I am accused of it over and over.. I am very tired of it. Questioning the actions and motives of the party's leaders is NOT attacking.

I am all for alliances, but not for the purpose of "keeping Dean out of the way" next primaries. And I am tired of being attacked.

[Tom Rinaldo]

24. Hi madfloridian. I posted some of my reactions to this post

But I posted it on "neutral territory." So I wanted to leave you the link. Here it is:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=117823&mesg_id=117873

[DoveTurnedHawk]

22. Dean Rocks

I support him and/or Simon Rosenberg for DNC Chair, and I do it without any need for "payback" or him sitting out 2008. What he does in 2008 is up to him, and he has every right to run if that's what he wants. Just because McAuliffe might demand lip service to some rule about the entire four-year term, that doesn't mean the rule holds any water. He'd have just about completed his entire four-year term by then anyway, and people change their minds about their intentions all the time.

All that said, I love the idea of an alliance between Clark and Dean grassroots folks. I think that whoever we run, we need to take a page from Schweitzer's playbook in Montana and convey a strong outsider, non-establishment message. We're not going to get that from DNC-as-usual, and we're not going to get that from Yet Another Senatorial Nominee.

DTH

[janx]

23. Same here. And I think we should do it via DFA!

http://www.democracyforamerica.com

[LSdemocrat]

25. I like Clark more than Kerry, but Clark needs some domestic experience

At minimum, he'd have to pick a VP with extensive legislative experience. I think he'd be a flawed, but acceptable candidate.