Seriously--is DU anti-Christian?

[Sadie4629]

Could someone please tell me what's with all the Christian-bashing on this site? Every religion has some bad apples, as does every "group" in the world.

If I point out that more people are hurt by Muslims every day (think genital mutilation, stoning women and gays, suicide bombings, etc.) than by Christians, everyone would jump all over me for stereotyping; yet it's perfectly all right to lump all Christians together and claim they are hypocrites, child molesters, perverts, abusers, and every other bad thing you can think of.

Why is this?

[NaturalHigh]

1. I don't really think so...

but many who post here are.

[tofurkey]

149. I despise all organized religions

so I show no favoritism in my bashing. :)

But Christians are certainly the majority here(in the USA and on this board), so I think it's likely it appears to dominate the religious criticism based on the obvious numerical realities.

[cgrindley]

231. I even despise the dis and unorganized ones

I have nothing at all against people who believe in such nonsense, unless it gets in the way of basic human dignity, which, unfortunately, is often the case.

[eagler]

393. Criticism is one thing , Bigotry is another and I have no tolerance for it

whatsoever. I do think we are all guilty of it and we all also need to be on guard against it. If a person is being persecuted for their beliefs and they are hurting no one - then that is clearly bigotry and it needs to be condemned. Atheist, Christian, Muslim, gay, asian - it makes no difference.

[jpgray]

2. Christians are a dominant majority, controlling vast swaths of our society

They have every reason to have their views questioned and criticized. Criticism isn't persecution. I wish more people understood that.

[LynneSin]

10. So you're saying I'm the dominant majority, controlling vast swaths of our society

And I guess all hispanics I see are illegal aliens, all african-americans I see are crack dealers, etc. etc. etc.

Christians are not the dominate minority - Fundamentalist Christians would be the better term to use. Fundamentists follow more along the teachings of Paul - the first Christian fundamentalists - than they do of Jesus.

Read about Ghandi - you'll see that even he felt Jesus was an inspiration and a great role model. It's a shame that the so-called 'Christians' in the fundamentalist part of the faith do very little that shows the life & teachings of Jesus

[jpgray]

29. Typo amnesty!

My point works either way, conveniently. :D It's a powerful minority of Christians behind most of the nasty business you hear about, but Christianity in general is working the victim angle far too much for having such a stranglehold on our society. We pledge allegiance to your God, your God is on our money, we get days off for your God's ostensible birthday, etc., etc. With all that, some criticisms (both over-the-top bigoted and reasonable) just go with the territory. It's not all persecution, and while it would be nice for people to be specific about which Christians they mean and not over-generalize, I think dealing with that just comes with being in power. It's like a white guy bitching about a "white people can't dance" joke--there's no real threat of discrimination behind that.

[LynneSin]

40. Typo forgiven but even still - put the word fundies in front of Christian

They are the problem - not 95% of the rest of Christians in this world.

The last 3 companies I worked for (including the current one) provided floating holidays for people to use for their specific holidays. Christmas (which to me is overly commericialized secular holiday) is probably the only major Christian holiday I know of that people have for a holiday. Even Good Friday is usually a workday that requires you to use a floating holiday if you're someone who celebrates it.

I do plenty of Fundie bashing here at DU - these people make me sick the way they damage my faith. It would be appreciated if people would make a distinction between us and them

[jpgray]

54. It would be best for everyone if people did that

While it's always bad to overgeneralize and smear an entire group for a very few offenders, I'm just saying when you're the dominant group it sort of goes with the territory.

[LynneSin]

62. Well, as someone who tries to be as PC as possible

I'll continue to ask people to distinguish Christians from the extremists. I recognize that the Muslims who were a part of the attacks on 9/11 were not typical of most Muslims you meet. Therefore I make a point to disguish the two groups as "The extremist"/"Terrorists" and Muslims. Perhaps the Extremists/Terrorists are muslim but they are neither representative of their faith nor in the majority.

You could subsititute Christians for the word Muslim and it would mean just about the same thing

[hfojvt]

307. is 'smearing' persecution?

Criticism is not. I agree with that, but I don't think people are complaining about criticism as much as they are complaining against name-calling and bigotry.

I disagree with the proposition that bigotry and slander against a 'dominant group' is okay and should be tolerated. That seems hypocritical to me. Either bigotry is wrong, or it isn't. Either intolerance is wrong, or it isn't. Either stereotyping, sweeping generalizations, and dualistic thinking are intellectually puerile, or they are not.

Uh, oops?

Sometimes, our progressive goals seem to be at odds. I would like to see a peaceful world where nobody goes hungry or without medical care or is oppressed or forced to work as a slave or virtual slave, and so on. Others seem to have an ideal world which is one that would have no religions. That seems to imply that it's okay if people starve or are beaten and otherwise abused and exploited as long as nobody believes in an invisible sky-king (religion is gone - problems solved), or the equally absurd notion that there would be no human suffering caused by other humans if only nobody believed in invisible sky-beings.

[jpgray]

337. I didn't say bigotry was "ok"

But a dominant social group should expect some of it. Or should we go out an protest the "white people can't dance" jokes of uninspired black comics? There are better things to do. Recognize all bigotry is bad, but also keep some perspective.

[bjorkfan]

419. Are Christians dominant on MTV?

Are Christians dominant in rock music, Hollywood movies, tv sitcoms?

Are there Abercrombie & Fitch T-shirts with Bible verses on them?

Alot of Christian women have been raped, abused or molested. I was one of them. We feel we have nowhere to turn. The church doesn't hear our voice because we are women, and liberal types don't hear our voice because we are religious.

It is not easy being in our shoes, it is a burden of the heart and spirit. But suffering can make a person more sensitive to others. As much as you scoff know, many of you will hit that rock-bottom point in your lives where you have nowhere to look but up. And you wind up on my doorstep, looking for answers, looking for that warm hand of someone who's been there. And I have Someone much greater to introduce you to.

[Arugula Latte]

323. jpgray -- that was a good explanation

A lot of my resentment towards the religion in general is that you can't fricking get away from it -- it's everywhere and it pervades our culture, so much so that most mainstream xtians have absolutely no idea how annoying a lot of us non-xtians find it all.

[heidler1]

377. The majority of all organized religion voters went for Bush both times.

Yes the Christian fundies who voted for Bush were a larger percentage, but that shows to me that their majorities all have deep bad judgment problems that will no doubt continue to haunt the Democrats. This is first off the Democratic Underground and by the same measure that Walmart is criticized here in DU the Organized Christian Churches deserve similar treatment. The continual cop out is either all Christians did not vote for Bush or it was just the fundies. This government is a majority run system. If any group majority votes against the Democrats then they are all guilty by association, IMO. There is one exception to this, in 2000 the Catholic majority voted for Gore by a slim margin.
For the eighth time http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=103

[okasha]

378. That makes all white men guilty by asssociation.

If, as seems likely from your other posts, you fall into that category--take your own words to heart. Go stand in the corner and hang your head in shame.

[heidler1]

384. The last time I looked a man has very little control of his color.

The issue here is what goes on in the religious mind. Last time your reply was that only 1% of the non fundies supported Bush was untrue. Your reply this time it was just illogical.

[skepticscott]

385. You obviously haven't had a look at Michael Jackson lately...

[okasha]

386. Nah, the issue is that you just want to blame your own personal

bete noire for the loss of the election. Fact: the majority of white men voted for Bush, regardless of religious persuasion. If the majority of white men had gone for Kerry, he'd have won. Simple math.

[Sadie4629]

23. I don't see the views attacked

nearly as much as Christians themselves. Some have pointed to the Bibles placed next to the Benoit murder victims and tried to blame religion rather than steroids or mental illness or whatever else was going on in that home. That seems crazy to me.

Or--maybe I'm just super-sensitive.

[jpgray]

70. Again, I think it gets over-the-top because Christians are so dominant

It comes with the territory--sexism towards males, racism towards whites, etc. These are all far more accepted than bigotry towards minorities or oppressed groups. In a perfect world none of it would happen, but once the danger of persecution doesn't really exist for you, putting up with some almost wholly toothless bigotry isn't the worst thing in the world. It's not right, but it should be expected.

[Ian David]

77. I wouldn't blame religion for the Benoit murders.

But it sure seems to me that when your buddy O'Reilly tries to blame everything on "Secular Progressives," there sure are a lot of religious people in trouble.

I don't think you can blame this on religion. But you sure can't blame it on a LACK of religion.

[Sequoia]

155. Well, he did place Bibles beside their bodies.

[Prophet 451]

295. He was out of his mind by that point

It looks more and more likely that the murders were premeditated and that he was injecting his 7-year old son with steroids in some deranged attempt to treat his disability (Benoit doesn't seem to have been roiding himself). Are these the actions of a sane man?

[Ian David]

297. Then I would say that religion probably contributed to his other pathologies. n/t

[canetoad]

3. My impression is

That the majority of DU is anti-hypocrite. If the cap fits......

[Sadie4629]

27. I think it's only fair to say--

--that you'll even find some hypocrites on DU.

[canetoad]

43. Of course you will

just as you will find them where any group of people gather. You spoke of DU as a whole, I replied with what I consider comparable scope.

[Philosoraptor]

80. DOGMA OVERLOAD!!!111

[indepat]

253. It's the hypocrisy, the mendacious reichous sanctimonious hypocrisy that most of us

despise, it's the supporting of those whose policies and actions are mostly antithetical to everything "Christian," every Christian teaching, principle and value that we despise with such gusto.

[LynneSin]

4. As a Christian I can honestly say it's not directed at all Christians

and perhaps it's best for us to help clarify to the non/anti-Christians that not all Christians are created alike. I know a few times I've posted that and everyone is pretty much aware that I consider myself a liberal Christian. Personally I do not like calling those fundies Christians since they do very little following of the teachings of Jesus but more towards the followings of Paul - the first Christian Fundamentalist.

[Sadie4629]

34. Believe it or not--

--I've known some fundies I'd call Christian. They work in church food pantries and on other projects that help the disadvantaged. They might pray for their clients and their goal might be to proselytize, but they are still out there following the example of Jesus.

[LynneSin]

42. Proselytizing was a function of Paul - not Jesus

and Paul was the first Christian Fundamentalist.

[canetoad]

48. Always thought Paul was a bit suss

Entirely too much to say on too many subjects.

[Sadie4629]

52. Well--

--there is no question that Jesus attempted to attract followers to himself.

[LynneSin]

57. There's no doubt that Jesus asked people to follow him but...

#1) Jesus was never a Christian and neither were the people who followed him (although some converted after his death)

#2) Jesus helped people regardless of who they were, their faith or their standing in society

The differents between Christians and 'Paulists' is that Christians believe heaven is rewarded through believe in Jesus and good works (aka - doing what Jesus did). Paulists believe that good works are a waste of time if you're not out there converting the masses.

[Sadie4629]

64. A lot of the Paulists I know

do help people, regardless of any of the things you mentioned. Their ultimate goal may be conversion, but they certainly do not withhold help if someone refuses to convert. The attitude is, "you win some, you lose some." And I don't think they believe that good works are a waste of time; they see them as a manifestation of their faith. They do good works because it is pleasing to God, and not as a means to achieve Heaven.

[canetoad]

61. Actually, there is a question

and that is the accuracy of the synoptic gospels.

It all starts, hinges on and ends with 2000 year old writings that; may or may not have been passed down orally; may or may not have been changed along the way; may or may not have been included in the New Testament for political and economic reasons.

[Sadie4629]

65. True that

However, if Jesus had not attempted to attract followers then his legacy wouldn't have survived, any more than that of any other good person who lived that long ago.

[mondo joe]

76. Attracting followers does not = attract worshippers.

MLK attracted followers to his philosophy or interpretation - that doesn't mean he wanted to be worshipped.

[LynneSin]

367. Great point - better explained than what I've done

Without a doubt both Jesus and Paul had followers. But the method of gaining a following was very different between the two

[mondo joe]

66. It would be more accurate to say there is little question that Jesus attempted to attract others to

his interpretation of Judaism - not to HIMSELF.

It was those who came later who turn Jesus into a religion.

[Sadie4629]

72. Matthew 4: 19

"Come follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

[mondo joe]

74. That's a lot of interpretation you're slathering onto a line that isn't a direct quote

since it was written generations later by people who weren't there.

[Sadie4629]

78. It is repeated in the book of Mark

which is technically a different source.

[mondo joe]

82. A. Neither is a "source"; B. You're still interpreting plenty onto it.

And I don't think you're hereto discuss the issue but to defend your religious beliefs.

[Sadie4629]

89. Not defending my beliefs

I'm speaking up on behalf of people who would find some of the things posted here very offensive, and probably wouldn't feel very welcome on DU.

[canetoad]

97. Geez, that could be anyone from...

Ann Coulter to Ahmadinejad!

[Sadie4629]

105. There are times--

--that I think Ahmadinejad would feel more welcome here than some of the Christians I know! There are, after all, some posts defending him. And there are, day after day, multiple postings bashing Christians. Bottom line, if we want to educate people, we need them to visit sites like this.

[LostinVA]

123. Oh boy

[DemBones DemBones]

357. You are so right! Atheists are the dominant group here but they are PC enough

to tolerate Muslims, Jews, etc. They don't extend the courtesy to progressive Christian DUers.

I NEVER recommend DU to anyone because of the anti-Christian bias that's so common here. It would turn a lot of people off to progressivism/liberalism and the Democratic Party to see what's posted here.

[sunflowers]

374. Bias is ugly, no matter who owns it

"I NEVER recommend DU to anyone because of the anti-Christian bias that's so common here. It would turn a lot of people off to progressivism/liberalism and the Democratic Party to see what's posted here."

It's a shame what has become of the Democratic Party. Many of the things I've read on this site, even just on this particular thread, resembles the kind of thing I would expect to hear from neocons about the GLBT community or about minorities. Bias is bias, and isn't any prettier when it comes from the left side of the fence.

[cyborg_jim]

403. Waah waah! Persecution complex! Besides what makes you think I respect those faiths?

I don't.

[theredpen]

410. Don't be a dick, cyborg_jim

It's beneath you.

[John Gauger]

411. You don't give people a lot of credit to make their own decisions.

I have to agree that people are generally stupid, but I would have to say that anybody that gets a bad impressions of liberalism from a few people saying bad things about Christianity that they are particularly stupid. I can't really say that I disagree that people might think that, though. Like I said, people are generally pretty fucking stupid.

If it makes you feel any better, I also think that Islam and Judaism are laughably backward belief systems.

[Skidmore]

124. No, you are witnessing and testifying.

aka as prosyletizing in a backhanded way by disguising it as political discourse. Common right now.

[LostinVA]

147. Yup -- exactly

[Gelliebeans]

316. Couldn't of said it any better myself. n/t

[Skidmore]

327. I think it stunningly speaks volumes

that Sadie ignores my post.

[LostinVA]

331. And every post we write that is factual and rational

[DemBones DemBones]

359. You're wrong. She is only suggesting that anti-Christian posts here

turn a lot of progressive Christians off, possibly drive them away from voting Democratic. I never recommend DU to anyone for exactly that reason. I was a yellow dog Dem when I came here. Now, the chances of my voting for the 2008 Dem nominee are very, very slim. I expect I will be writing in Dennis Kucinich for President or simply staying home. Or perhaps I'll vote Green and try to help build a new, more tolerant party. A real big tent, instead of a fake one.

My views about 2008 are partly because I don't like the media-annointed candidates and partly because I've learned at DU that a lot of "liberal Democrats" are very intolerant. It's not just the anti-Christian posts, but the sexist posts, the racist posts, the posts attacking all red-staters and Southerners, the posts attacking the disabled, the posts attacking the obese, the posts attacking "breeders," etcetera ad nauseam. There are just too many DUers who hate other people as groups. That's bigotry, plain and simple. Unless all of the bigots here are paid GOP operatives or freeps, this says very bad things about the Democratic Party.

[Exiled in America]

420. This non-theist says: bullshit.

But it sure is easy to avoid discussion about whether or not DU is aggressively unfriendly towards persons of belief by suggesting that anyone who asks the question is "proselytizing."

[MNDemNY]

170. You have no right not to be offended. No one does.

[Exiled in America]

421. Not exactly true.

You have a right to expect to be treated with dignity. That's a universal human right.

[canetoad]

81. A good 'Christian' is a silent one

and let me qualify before the flames; 'Christian' in quotes to specify a person who follows the teachings of Jesus as written in the synoptics, not a follower of any church.

If a person decides to follow the example of Jesus and live by his teachings as they are recorded, the precursor to the Lord's prayer most explicitly tells them to be quiet about it. I have great admiration for the countless people who go about their lives quietly standing up for what they believe in.

The minute they open their mouths and declare themselves Christian....well I start to wonder if it's really so.

[LostinVA]

88. Yup, it's better to pray alone in a closet

[LostinVA]

104. Excellent response

[canetoad]

110. Thank you

Been wanting to say that line for years

:evilgrin:

[LanternWaste]

112. If one reads the Bible literally...

"the precursor to the Lord's prayer most explicitly tells them to be quiet about..."

If one reads the Bible literally, I can see how that would be the only possible interpretation.

My church, which recognizes Biblical allegory, metaphor and poetic licenses, reads it more along the lines of, "don't pray simply to be seen praying as do the hypocrites on the streets-- pray with sincerity regardless of your surroundings..."

I think most Protestant denominations view it the same way, too.

[canetoad]

120. Makes sound sense to me

and I enjoy that aspect of the writings too; it's all about the continual quest for consistency of meaning.

As a self-avowed non-christian, I just like to cherry-pick the bits I like, which is basically 'Do unto others.....'

[MNDemNY]

174. Literally?? by who's translation/interpretation? Literally made up shit.

[LanternWaste]

199. I'm afraid I don't understand the question....

I'm afraid I don't understand the question....

[MNDemNY]

221. How can you "read literally" from a book, or set of documents ..

that have been changed / amended / misinterpreted for a few thousand years? Is the "literal" not long gone by now? Believe as you wish, but accept the fact that your, and all "holy " books are by now, nothing but "interpretations" adjusted to fit the ruling powers (or their opposition) of the times.
The works of MAN, not GOD.

[LanternWaste]

229. I was simply saying

I was simply saying to the poster I initially replied to that his statement would be valid if the passage was read literally, while reading it metaphorically would allow a greater amount of latitude.

Or, in other words, allowing him an additional interpretation/perspective he may or may not have seen before.

I don't think I implied that I read the Bible literally. As a matter of fact, I think it could be inferred rather easily that I am open to the Bible peing filled with metaphor, allegory, parable, poetry, et.al.

But feel free to interpret it how you want, whether as a simple specific, or as your own interpretation of how it's affected the ruling elite throughout history, the poor and wretched in the here and now, or whatever else floats your boat.

[canetoad]

240. Not to mention

probably starting off as a Friday night sesh over a goatskin of new wine and a big fat hookah.

[Mythsaje]

364. To paraphrase Thomas Paine

Second-hand revelation isn't worth shit.

[DemBones DemBones]

361. Catholics interpret it the same way. nt

[Justpat]

139. The Quakers call it "letting your lives speak"

works for me.

[Perky]

144. And yet Christ tells his followers to go into all the world and

preach the Gospel. So how do your reconcile the Lord's Prayar and the Great Commission?

[canetoad]

179. That's one of the bits I take allegorically

[Perky]

293. awfully convenient

:)

Not a criticism, but if we subscribe that some of the letters in red are authentic, then don't we have to deall with the rest as well? Somehow some way.


It makes it harder to be sure.

That is the quandary the Right faces and the Left for that matter as well... ;shrug:

[canetoad]

317. but but...I don't subscribe

so I'm allowed to cherry pick the good bits

[Perky]

345. uh huh

[mondo joe]

258. I'm not sure what was intended behind the Great Commission - if in fact it

was actually issued and if Jesus actually lived - but since Jesus seems to have been just about some basic philosophies, I don't construe spreading THOSE with spreading Christianity.

[Perky]

294. You have to read the the entire section of John's Gospel

to get the context....but its pretty clear that Christians are called to spread the Gospel....But it also suggest alot about tactics and empowerment. It is actually very mystical

[JerseygirlCT]

280. St. Francis -

preach the gospel daily, when absolutely necessary, use words...

I agree... I tend to shy away from the talkers. I like the walkers, and aspire to be one.

I have no problem with people who call themselves Christian in the service of the poor or oppressed, as a way to call others out and/or to action, though. I'm not one who thinks people should never speak of their faith -- if it's central to who you are, then it is.

But people who put on what ought to be an obligation as if it's a medal of honor? Yeah, I wonder there, too.

[DemBones DemBones]

351. That's not so. Jesus said not to be self-righteous and

show off when you are praying or fasting but he prayed publicly, preached publicly.

You have apparently forgotten that Jesus also commanded His followers to spread the Word of God, which requires talking to people about God, often publicly.

[Marrah_G]

226. DId Jesus strive to become rich and famous by taking from his followers?

[LostinVA]

87. Bingo, sis

[Progressive_In_NC]

216. Go ye therefore into all the world and preach the gospel -- Jesus

Jesus gave the Great Commission, Paul capitalized on it.



From Matthew:

28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[LostinVA]

84. If they're judging -- which they are -- then they aren't following the example of Christ

He hung out with whores, the era's version of money launderers, the dregs of society. He didn't judge them, he just loved them.

[Sadie4629]

93. He did say

"Go and sin no more." Sounds like a judgment to me.

[LostinVA]

99. How is that judging them for who they are -- it isn't

An admonition isn't the same as a judgment, but you already knew that. I have a background in Koines Greek, you won't best me by taking stuff out of context.

Twisting Christ's words. Tsk tsk.

Wow. Unreal. Like glass, eh?

My first MRD Ignore.

[Skidmore]

He also said "Judge not, lest you be judged" and there is that

bit about "Judgement is mine," saith the Lord. It is not up to my fellow man to judge the merit of my life and moral choices so long as they do not harm someone else. Neither is it up to the Christian community to force their values upon the nation or world. Being a Christian is a choice, not a prerequisite for being born or breathing. How's that for being pro-choice.

[LostinVA]

250. "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I will repay."

Romans 12, I think.

[JerseygirlCT]

279. More evidence that stereotyping will always come back to

bite you.

(And I'm as guilty as anyone).

I agree with you. There are many who both walk the walk and talk the talk. And all sorts along the spectrum.

I think it's where the fundamental Christian movement has been yoked to the right wing political machine that we've seen the creation of a really ugly monster.

[Labors of Hercules]

165. So the question is, Why are you a Christian?

Seems there are many answers to this question, but to me they basically fall into two ways of thinking:

1) I was taught about Christianity and the Bible (by my Family, Friends, a Church etc...) and I believe what they teach me is the truth. I was raised a Christian, my family goes to church on Sunday and what's important is that Jesus saved me from my sins so I can go to heaven and not to Hell. Praise Jesus!

-or-

2) I was taught about Christianity and the Bible, but instead of accepting everything I was taught, have saught to experience the truth myself and think about what I believe. What's important is that Jesus taught us a way to live, and how we live is more important than our salvation alone.

It's amazing how the name "Christianity" is given to such dissimilar ways of thinking, believing and acting. And the one more broadly supported by Churches everywhere seems to be the one that is in most direct contradiction to what Jesus said and who he was...

[DemBones DemBones]

355. You're right that it's mostly directed at fundamentalists (and Catholics) but

wrong that none of it is directed toward all Christians.

I've been reading DU since soon after it began and there have been many, many posts about religion being a "fairy tale" which only "stupid" people believe. Most of these posters would never say Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Native Americans, etc., are stupid, just Christians.

There is bigotry against Christians at DU.

Bigotry is not a liberal trait.

[John Gauger]

412. I'm not a bigot.

Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Native American traditional religions are also fairy tales.

[originalpckelly]

5. Every organization has bad apples, but the problem with Christianity...

and other religions extends beyond bad apples.

But when there is bigotry that doesn't take issue with actual beliefs and extends to playing upon stereotypes or is an attempt to play to emotion by calling someone those names, then it's obviously not right as it wouldn't be for any other religion.

[rfranklin]

6. I think it's the ones that Jesus described as "hypocrites..."

that are the target of most of the venom around here. The ones who want to force everyone to bow down before their Jesus--a Jesus who would sodomize children, kill their parents, bomb the shit out of their homes, and then blame them for resenting it.

[Ian David]

7. Don't mistake fundie-bashing for christian-bashing.

I appreciate your concern, especially in light of how christians are so persecuted in this country. Hopefully, someday, they will overcome all this discrimination, and perhaps we'll even have christians in Congress... or even a christian President!

Now, just so you know, I am not anti-religion or anti-Christian.

I am against the hypocrisy of conservatives caught doing unto others contrary to their own words and actions.

What I've done, is set-up a Google RSS feed that looks for Priests, Ministers, Reverends and Rabbis "in trouble."

It is hardly my fault that there are so many of them to dutifully report.

It is also hardly my fault that 99% of them are conservative christians who work for religious organizations teaching hate and intolerance. (If you'll look, you'll find a story I posted about Reform (Liberal) Rabbi who got caught trying to hire someone to kill his wife).

The way I see it, it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket if my neighbor worships one god, nineteen gods, or none.

But the ones who try to enforce the will of their invisible friends upon us, claiming that they are morally superior. are the problem.

I'm a big fan of-- and financial contributor to-- several religious organizations. For example, I have donated to The Interfaith Alliance, The United Church of Christ, and Soulforce.

I'm also a big fan of The Catholic Worker, The Unitarians, Voice of The Faithful, Catholic Charities, Walking Stick and several other religious Christian groups.

Sometimes, they even send me free bumper stickers after I donate:



(And some of them, like Interfaith Alliance send me stickers that dissolve into paste the first time it rains).




So, please don't hold it against me (or other DUers) for reporting the wrong-doings of those christians who are all-cross and no-Christ. It's not my fault that there are so damn many of them.

But I feel it is my duty to collect and report them, so that when these groups come waving their respective religious symbols, claiming they know how best to lead what they think are moral lives, we can deny those hypocrites the right to declare themselves to be standing on the high ground.

I also report the right-doings of those Christian and religious groups that I support. Go digging around the LGBT forum, for example, to find stories I've posted of Soulforce and other progressive religious groups.

Those Progressive religious groups are the groups that can claim the moral high ground. Again, that's not my fault. If it was happening, I would post it.

Actually, I think I did post something about the LGBT lobbyist in Massachusetts who got in trouble. But interestingly enough, the Progressive don't seem to molest children, steal money, and get busted for drugs very often.

Not my fault.

It doesn't seem to be the Christians that are the hypocrites, but the christians that are all-cross and no-Christ.

[Sadie4629]

47. I appreciate you taking the time to address my concerns

since it was your multiple a.m. posts that drew my attention to this matter.

There are hypocrites among Christians, of all denominations and organizations, even the ones you support.

You are hardly in any danger of losing any rights as a result of their opinions of what you do. Last I looked, their agenda hasn't been implemented, and is not likely to be. Ever.

"the Progressive don't seem to molest children, steal money, and get busted for drugs very often"

I am going to question the above quote, just on principle. I'm not going to go looking for links to prove you wrong. A few examples that come to mind: Marion Barry (drugs,) Al Franken (some Boys & Girls Club thing,) William Jefferson (taking bribes.)

[Ian David]

73. "Last I looked, their agenda hasn't been implemented, and is not likely to be. Ever."

"You are hardly in any danger of losing any rights as a result of their opinions of what you do. Last I looked, their agenda hasn't been implemented, and is not likely to be. Ever."

Uhm...

What fucking rock have YOU been living under for the last six years????

Also, that right-wing talking point about Franken has been dismissed and discredited ad infinitum.

Thanks for playing, though!

[Maven]

161. .

"You are hardly in any danger of losing any rights as a result of their opinions of what you do. Last I looked, their agenda hasn't been implemented, and is not likely to be. Ever"

OMG. Are you that clueless?

Who, exactly, do you think is working so hard to deny me and other gay people equal rights?

[LostinVA]

251. OMG -- hahahahahhahahhahahhaha

You are either uneducated on this matter or have a disingenuous agenda.

[Gelliebeans]

319. Ya think?

;)

[LostinVA]

333. Yup!

How are you doing? Been monkeying around any?

[Gelliebeans]

334. always darling...always

;)

[fishwax]

314. do you really believe that?

You are hardly in any danger of losing any rights as a result of their opinions of what you do. Last I looked, their agenda hasn't been implemented, and is not likely to be. Ever.

[Name removed]

340. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mmonk]

8. There isn't much compassion or conscience

about what is happening to the people of Iraq right now. Portions of American Christianity have allowed for that.

[Sadie4629]

55. Good point

But how much compassion or conscience is involved when an Islamic fundamentalist decides to blow up a bus filled with Israeli school chilren.

Just sayin'.

[Skidmore]

232. As much compassion as it takes to order and carry out

carpet bombing, torture, and demanding that the ME be nuked. The same amount of compassion that it takes to crucify a young man on a fence because he was gay. The same compassion it takes for morally superior "Christian" supremacists to conduct the modern day versions of lynchings.

Funadmentalism, no matter what label it wears, carries with it the same evil. Because "they" do it does not excuse Christians here or make what is done by "culture warriors" less reprehensible.

[dansolo]

217. Especially the Christians of Iraq

American Christians don't seem to care to much about Iraqi Christians, who are decidedly worse off since our invasion.

[Stump]

375. Everyone has seen the bumper stickers...

"God Bless America"...Well I want to find one that says "God Bless The Rest Of The World Too"...Many DUer's see the money grubbing televangelists on TBN and equate this with Christianity. Easy to see why some would look upon it with disdain. I am a Christ follower who is a former fundie and now believe I will demonstrate my faith by my actions; i.e. helping the poor, fighting for social justice, etc. If progressives want to bash me for that, I can't relate.

[Dervill Crow]

376. Close enough?

http://www.stickergiant.com/page/sg/PROD//b5643

[Stump]

382. Thanks

My Honda Civic will be sporting one soon.

[Dervill Crow]

389. My pleasure. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[bryant69]

9. It's because this community is largely tolerant of that kind of stuff

And most communities in America barely tolerate expressions of Atheism/Agnosticism at all. So the pressure to say such things builds up - and when given a place where you can say such things without worrying about being attacked or censored (or worse), they come out. Similar things happen in Christian communities - attend a college age congregation and hear students who won't criticize their professors irreligiousity to their face (for fear of hurting their grades) complain about it to their congregation.

I just wish that people who felt the need to discuss such issues would stick to the religion forum, where they belong.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Sadie4629]

60. Tolerant of anti-Christian bias

But certainly not tolerant of bias against any other religion. Maybe the people who post those things SHOULD be attacked--in the same way that anti-Islamic posts, or anti-gay posts, or anti-women posts would be attacked.

I agree that it should stay in the Religion Forum.

[Marrah_G]

237. I see you!

You aren't really here for political discourse.

Yet another Wolf in sheep's clothing.

I will now tell you straight out what our problem with Christian Fundies are. It is people like you, trying to spread your fertilizer while cheer-leading the crusades that cause so much anger on DU.

I am sure it will not be long before your tombstone arrives and you slink back off to one of your freeperish sites so you can preen to the other asshats about how you came and bravely "fought" the Evil Liberal Horde.

Isn't it time for you all to be raptured off our planet away? The sooner the better, imho.

You are not fooling anyone here.

[LostinVA]

254. It's MRD

Mod Rollover Days. Par for the course.

[Bluebear]

262. ...

:spray: and :hug:

[Philosoraptor]

11. (yaaaawwwnnn)....zzzz zzzzzz zzzzzzz....zzzz.....zzzz zzz

[devilgrrl]

35. No shit...

oooooooh, poor persecuted "Christians" :cry:

[philosophie_en_rose]

12. Sigh.

[seabeyond]

there seems to be a single poster that consistently post every negative story

about christians. any story that is a negative about a christian seems to fall in this members hands and he/she posts on the board. they have every right to. i also have the right to recognize this is the members MO. and i think there is some validity for the posters actions.

but yes,... there is a lopsided animosity to christians on this board. i can also understand the anger to christians because of what has happened the last decade. christians have a responsibility to own the negativity felt by others. we are the ones that created it. so... we have to have an endurance and patients to that animosity.

[Sadie4629]

69. ALL Christians have that responsibility?

Why? We are all only responsible for our own actions. I've done nothing wrong, so I don't believe I need to atone for anything.

[supernova]

116. Actually we xtians do have a responsibility

We xtains have to take responsiblity for the hateful, meanspirited grossly inaccurate and most of all, unloving stuff that our brothers and sisters such as Jerry falwell, James Dobson, and others who call themselves the "religious right" do and say.

I don't like having to say that I share Our Lord's Table with these awful people, but I do. Just as I share it equally with the Dali Lama, Barack Obama, and Hillary and my neighbor down the street who can't stop the alcohol habit. We all are there. We all belong.

However, I will never back down from telling the Religious right to stay the hell out of my bedroom, my uterus, or my basic self determination as a free woman in a free country. The US emphatically was not set up as a "christian nation." Anybody who thinks that is delusional with a warped view of American History. And I will oppose, with every fibre of my being, any attempt to enact "laws" or judicial appointments and decisions that want to support that view.

If you don't share any of that thinking, your tenure at DU is bound to be frustratingly short for you.

[seabeyond]

119. i didn't say anything about "atone". the responsibility lies in the christian

beliefs..... we are all one, of gods children, responsible for our fellow man. to understand that those that use the words of our own religion to hurt others, is our place to interfer, intercede, speak out.

i am very much a believer that a member of a group is the one that needs to heal the pain and hurt and anger of that group. that one who is not a part of the group, cannot do the healing. i do feel a responsibility to my fellow christians to be one with, and allow a healing of the anger and the fear and the hate they have..... thru our very religion

i also feel a responsibility as a female to be the one to stand when female use their powers to hurt males. i feel i have more ability to help in the healing, than the outside of the group

i believe that males are the ones to stand up to their fellow male, .... to help heal, as they may hurt the female

i believe as an american, i own the responsibility to address the issues that we americans sit in today that hurts the rest of the world. i believe it is the americans that can heal ourselves as a nation, that another nation cannot step in and do it for us

it is all part of christ and the christian beliefs, being responsible for our brother.

i am able to hold that burden, without feeling of guilt or need to blame, ignore or point finger. but merely to be there in love, for fellowman, in love, to help create a peace

i do it on a regular basis in the bible belt, christian fundamentalist area i live.

yes,.... i will take on the obligation and help to teach christ learnings thru example.... of love. and that includes understanding and embracing the anger that those who are not a part of the group feel because of laws and rules and judgments our religion is handing to them.

[seabeyond]

134. further, it is the christian that denies their responsibility that is even more

of a hindrance to healing, than those that interpret christs words in anger and hate.

example.

i feel it was those in germany that in majority and ability to see the wrong in what hitler did who did nothing as a whole, that allowed the holocaust to happen. the person that is in the throes of anger and hate cannot see what is on the other side. those of us that CAN see the lite are at least capable of seeing the right and wrong, yet cause we do not commit the action, we turn our back and do not allow ourselves a responsibility.

my biggest challenge in this area talking to the baptists is when i point out the unchristian behavior of the christian, and why there is so much animosity, they state.... i dont feel that, i dont do that... not my problem.

yes, it is.

[intheflow]

247. Yes, all Christians have to own it.

The religious left largely abdicated its voice in the latter half of the 20th century so they wouldn't be linked with fundamentalist evangelical Christians. That withdrawal from public discourse created a void which allowed the fundie voice to grow increasingly stronger, more powerful, and more influential in American society. It is no coincidence that there are whole cable channels devoted to conservative Christian views while there is not a single nationally televised liberal/progressive Christian show on tv, never mind having their own cable network. If the prevailing Christian voice is conservative and judgmental, it is fair game on a liberal/progressive board like DU.

BTW, you might try contributing financially to DU to get another view of Christianity on the board. There are Groups for Catholic and Orthodox Christians and Christian Liberals/Progressive People of Faith, as well as a Prayer Circle Group (non-denominational), and groups for Jews, Muslims/Islam, Pagans, Atheists and Agnostics, and "Seekers On Unique Paths." You'll notice that Christians are in the majority of religious groups, having two; there is no distinction between Reformed and Orthodox Judaism, for instance. That would indicate to me a bias in favor of Christianity on this board.

[Sadie4629]

261. Did not know that about the groups

As you can tell, I haven't been around all that long.

I will probably contribute. Will be a couple of weeks, though. I'm a little short right now. *sigh*

[intheflow]

302. No worries.

I was on for months before I contributed. If you stick around for a while you will see some wonderful acts of kindness and generousity on DU. As a community we have paid for an organ transplant, financially helped some of the least financially stable among us, and helped grieving families cope with the loss of loved ones--and those are just the incidents I know about.

Even the atheists contribute to these efforts, which is surely the "Christian" thing for them to do. ;)

[NotGivingUp]

13. Look who's doing the lumping..."is DU anti-Christian."

Some are...some aren't. I'm anti-religion. It's all a bunch of brainwashing.

[Sadie4629]

75. What I meant was--

Is anti-Christian bias tolerated here.

But you knew that, didn't you?

[riderinthestorm]

137. Yes, anti-Christian bias is tolerated here. But so is anti-Islamic bias.

And you ain't seen nothing till you've seen the anti-Scientology bias. Oh, and have you noticed the anti-smoking bias? Or perhaps the anti-breastfeeding bias? There's even a very, very strong anti-Olive Garden bias here at DU. And oh. my. gawd. the anti-OJ bias?? The pits!!!

Just pm me if you want a more extensive list so you can forewarn all of your "friends" who might be offended at open discussions with frank opinions on all sorts of topics to stay away from DU.

[speakclearly]

160. You can get banned!

If you bash Christians or Jews, you don't get banned here on DU. If you bash Muslims or terrorists, you have posting privileges removed. Kind of an "editorial bias".

[riderinthestorm]

172. Frankly, the anti-Olive Garden bias pisses me off the most

On behalf of all Flying Spaghetti Monster believers who worship at the Olive Garden altar, I am shocked, simply shocked! that DU allows anyone to bash the Olive Garden and by extension those who believe in his Noodleyness!

They should all be banned, I tells ya!

What will the OP's friends think if they try to come to DU and discover that there are those who bash the Olive Garden here on DU? They won't love us Dems anymore and will flee in horror to their nearest Rethug haven.

[speakclearly]

195. They don't flee.....

They just get chased away after they are banned/rejected/excommunicated. I would point out that no one on DU condemns the FSM or any of the beliefs or followers of this exalted one!

[Marrah_G]

238. That is a flat out lie.

Enjoy your short DU stay

[riderinthestorm]

249. Heh.

Counting down till tombstoning 10, 9, 8, 7..... Sometimes though it's just irresistible bait.

:evilgrin:

[regularguy]

248. I hate Terrorists!

Now I'm patiently waiting to be banned...
:freak:

[LostinVA]

255. Wow. Unreal.

Try to take more than 12 posts before you do this, okay? It makes it waaaaaay more entertaining for us.

[otherlander]

339. In all fairness...

I've seen some people post things along the lines of "religion is for sheep" and "god is just an excuse not to take responsibility for your actions", and those people are not banned from DU.

[LostinVA]

303. What happens if you bash transparent college kids living in their parents' basemen rt?

[Random_Australian]

363. Of course, DU'ers just love those terrorists. Do I detect the hint that you were previously banned?

:D

[TreasonousBastard]

14. Not DU, which has a sizable Christian membership, but...

some of the louder Christian-bashers have found this a congenial place to spread their own zealotry.

They won't shut up, so the best thing is to simply ignore them. Unfortunately, ignoring them does tend to lead to the impression that there are more of them than there really are.

[Sadie4629]

83. Understood,

and I will take your advice to ignore them from now on.

But, because of the impression you mentioned, I don't think it's wise to refer my Christian friends to DU for information. And that's a real shame.

[canetoad]

103. Why don't you

point your friends to this thread and let them make their own minds up.

Sorry, but I feel you are exerting subtle pressure to insist that discussion must be framed in a Christian context. A question: Do you believe in the seperation of church and state?

[Sadie4629]

266. Absolutely!!

I also believe in *gasp* evolution. I think women have the right to choose abortion, and I'd love to see the government fund stem-cell research.

And no, I don't want discussion framed in a Christian context.

The first thing I see in the morning here is six or seven of the latest "Christian molests little kids" threads with about a dozen responses validating the idea that Christians are the only ones who molest little kids. Whenever some sensational case, like the Benoit murders, or the Andrea Yates murders, or whatever happens, Christianity is blamed. I think it's unfair, and downright false.

[intheflow]

306. Try just cruising the Greatest Page.

You'll miss the vast majority of Christian molestation threads, as well as much of the other garbage that gets posted. The ones that do make it on the GP are usually the most aggregious incidents by either high profile people or sects who have passed themselves off as national moralists.

On an open board that highly regards free speech, anyone is and should be welcome to post anything they think will me of interest. But the cream usually rises to the top on the Greatest Page, kind of like the DU equivalent of the free market. :)

[TreasonousBastard]

157. Why not? One would hope they would tune out...

the "theological points" they disagree with along with the other trifles and chaff in here and head for the relevant facts.

That, of course, is often too much to hope for and we all have a tendency to get sidetracked with all sorts of foolishness.

And, ummm... I hate to bring this up, but I suspect mentioning "Christian friends" as those who might be taken aback by some of the comments here has likely put you in the sights of some here who will dutifully advise the moderators that you might be some sort of unwelcome fundagelical yourself.

Stranger things have happened here...

[LostinVA]

257. I doubt your friends would enjoy a Progressive site

[bananas]

338. There is an "Ignore" feature on DU

The icon that looks like a person with a red X over it
press it and that users posts will be hidden from you.
You can undo it from your settings page.
Sometimes people accidently hit that button, too.

I use it on and off, sometimes people go too over the top and I put them on ignore for a while.
It can really help.

[MNDemNY]

143. Any one can believe as they wish..

just keep your and all religion completely out of my life. Don't ask me to swear on a bible, don't ask me to pledge to a nation "under god" don't ask me to financially support your or any religion,keep your damn symbols and slogans off my currency, keep your ideology the hell out of our courtrooms.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Anti-fundy. Yes there are some who are against all faiths and give

believers a hard time about "Sky Daddies", but whatever. They speak for themselves and not DU, and the same goes for the believers.

[Sadie4629]

96. I do understand that

But I hesitate to tell some of the people I know to check out this site, because of those posts. Not saying censorship is the answer, but maybe a little self-censorship, in an effort to appeal to a certain demographic wouldn't be a bad idea.

[GreenPartyVoter]

102. It'll never happen. Your friends will have to learn to use the ignore feature if

it really bothers them. :)

[philosophie_en_rose]

106. Take it up with the mods or admin, then.

Grow up. This is a message board not a fan club. No one is going to "self-censor" to appeal to a "certain demographic" (read: you). If you see something that offends your sensibilities, hit alert or respond to it. That's the point of a message board.

If your friends are so sensitive that the sight of differing opinions will make them cry like emo teenagers, then they shouldn't be here. That's regardless of their religious choices.

And if you want to know whether "Christian bashing" is tolerated here, ask the mods or admin.

[Sadie4629]

111. It's not differing opinions that would turn people off

It's the flat-out assumption that all members of a certain religion are child molesters, wife murderers, and other stuff.

Edited to add: I know it's only a relatively few posts/posters out of thousands per day, but they do tend to stick out.

[Justpat]

177. Self censorship to appease your friends???

I don't think so.

If your friends are grown ups they are more than able to sift through thoughtful debate
and someone merely letting loose in frustration or anger.

And even if there are some anti christian posts, so what?
DU is not a group of people who think or speak in lockstep.

My personal feelings about christians is that fundamentalist religious
nuts have gone dangerously far down the path to installing a theocracy
in this country.

I personally detest fundamentalists of all stripes.

[mondo joe]

208. Every site isn't for every one. Your friends may need a more sheltered sort of

message board.

[Puglover]

242. I would say if your friends are

as thinned skinned as you seem to think they are you may be right. Tell me, how do they survive out in the real world with all of us heathens? Thank Goddess for you! :eyes:

This shit is beyond tired.

[me b zola]

287. You first...

...maybe a little self-censorship, in an effort to appeal to a certain demographic wouldn't be a bad idea.

[malaise]

16. Seriously

Have you really studied how many millions of people were slaughtered on behalf of christian religions? Does 'every day' begin when you alone set the date?

Put simply - fugg all religions -religion is the worst of all the myriad evils on this planet.

[edhopper]

17. I certainly hope so.

If you mean by Christian, those in our society (like G W Bush) who think this is a "Christian nation", founded on "Christian principles". Who think that there should not be a separation of church and state. Who think the Bible trumps Science. Then yes, I certainly hope that here at DU we are "anti-Christian".

[Sadie4629]

100. That's really sad

Many people who identify themselves as Christian don't believe those things, but they get lumped in with the ones who do.

[LeftyMom]

18. A lot of us are anti religion generally.

As we live in a society where much of the culture, including a fair share of the media and at least one political significant party is dominated by Christianity, we tend to talk and the problems with it more than say (to borrow an example of another religion I've slagged on the forum recently,) Tibetan Buddhism.

The best way to stop this sort of criticism would be to police your own perverts and assholes. One generally hears no bitching about denominations and faiths that do, no matter how goofy their beliefs may be. People aren't going to get worked up about groups that keep to themselves and are largely harmless.

[Maven]

166. Exactly, LM

I'm anti-religion in general, but I reserve my strongest ire for the loudest proselytizers. In this country, they happen to be Christian fundamentalists.

And I don't apologize for it, either.

[Skidmore]

19. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Fundamentalist Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all heads on the body of the same terrible beast. The beast creates terror, fear, hatred, and perpetuates poverty and suffering.

I have problems with fundamentalism of all stripes.

If you want persecution, then cue the lions and then let us talk. Otherwise, criticism of one's worldview need not be the end of civilization as we know it.

[rubberducky]

20. I think that the far right "christian fundies" have turned me off to religion.

Sorry, but when you stand back and take a look at them they scare me. It`s like they are on thier own little "jihad". I consider myself to be a spiritual person. I understand where this question is coming from, but it`s like the word christian has taken on a bad meaning.

[mondo joe]

21. This is a political board. Some on the right have made Christianity a pseudo-political party.

So surprise, there's a political response.

In terms of people practicing Christianity or any other religion in their personal lives, I think you'd find little problem here - and no more than for religion in general.

[Justpat]

67. .

:thumbsup:

[speakclearly]

188. Christians are not a pseudo-party

Christians (white ones at that) walked side-be-side with MLK on his march to Montgomery. Christians helped send money to burnt out black-churches in the South when it was thought these were set by whites. Christians collect and send relief supplies, money and clothing to those suffering from natural disasters across the US and around the world. Many of the schools in the most neglected parts of Africa are funded by Christian relief organizations. So are many of the hospitals. This is not a pattern that would be associated with "the right" or "the left". It is done merely because of the Christian belief in their teachings that, "what you do for the least of these, you do for me" which is a famous "quote" of the "mythical" Jesus. Short of the one act of violence by Jesus (throwing the money-changers out of the temple), no vuiolence or violent teachings are attributed to Jesus in the Bible. You cannot say the same thing about the Koran and Muhammed.

So I think the original posting here is a valid one. Why would an blog that is ostensively concerned about the welfare of the downtrodden attack a religious group/sect/cult that vocally, in writing, and in deed is supportive of those who are downtrodden regardless of their professed religion? True, not all Christians act in concert with the teachings they profess to believe, but even atheists occasionally act or talk in an "inappropriate" manner. Why single out Christians? Is it simply because they are a majority? By that measure, we should condemn liberalism since liberal ideas dominate in US culture.

[Skidmore]

201. Christian fundamentalists are demanding to be treated like a pseudo-party

rather than one of many religious traditions practiced in this nation. I would suggest that the erstwhile leaders of the fundamentalists be chastised for their lavish lifestyle built by liberating the working man from his pay. I wonder if you have a problem with Pat Robertson and his diamond mines where slavery is used.

I would also suggest that perhaps you take note of the many "godless libruls" who donate to charity and donate their time to community efforts. You may also take time to note that we don't feel the need to proselytize, godless or otherwise.

[mondo joe]

I see you missed "SOME ON THE RIGHT" have made Christianity a pseudo-party.

When they make Christianity the overt basis of political action, they make it like a political party.

When they are challenged they say "Oh no you are anti-Christian!"

If Buddhists did the same they'd get the same.

You'd be better off getting your fellow Christians to maintain a separation of church and state.

[Marrah_G]

243. Because those are not the huge right-wing you see now

The right wing Christians have grown in HUGE numbers in the last couple decades. They have used those numbers to influence politicians with the sometimes successful goal of changing local, state and federal law to reflect their religious views.

I'd like to see more Christians standing up to those people. But we often hear crickets from much of the remainder of Christianity.

The only thing I will agree to is that perhaps Fundamental should precede Christian. You can spare me the persecution complex.

Get back to me when YOUR government tells a family in YOUR faith that your dead soldier husband can't have the symbol of HIS faith on it because YOUR religion doesn't count.

Get back to me when that happens okay? Then we can talk discrimination, bashing and persecution.

[LostinVA]

260. Wow. Unreal.

[supernova]

22. More apt to say DU is anti-fundamentalist

"Fundamentailist" being those who take a legalistic, literal interrpretation of the Bible. Those who view the Bible is inerrant rather than metaphorical, philosophical, and alligorical.

And this applies to fundamentalists of all three Abramic faiths.

It is fair to say most people at DU admire the teaching of Jesus and wish more people aspired to those tenets (helping the poor, the sick, and the stranger in a strange land) rather than the religious right's bizarre focus on sexuality and whether or not everybody is properly married to the "right" people and elective warmongering in the name of God.

[Goblinmonger]

24. Saying there are problems with an orginization

is not bashing.

Let's just get all the atheists to shut up like the good old days.

[More Than A Feeling]

154. At last, a voice of clarity in the darkness!

I was wondering when one of all my rowdy friends was going to show up on this thread!

[Goblinmonger]

230. How's it goin', buddy?

I have been out of the R/T forum for a while because I needed a break. Guess it's time to come back :P

[More Than A Feeling]

276. Alright. You missed a hilarious take down of astrology woo.

It was from a guy who thought that Ron Paul was going to rescue America lol. Now THAT'S woo!

[hyphenate]

25. I don't hate Xtians

I hate the cult of the fundies and the radical religious right. I hate Pat Robertson, Donald Wildmon, James Dobson, and any of the other evangelical busybodies who have hijacked the Xtian religion and made the public perception of it into this exaggerated creationist based, gay bashing, intolerant, legalistic, fundie cult that seeks only to make the US a theocracy with themselves in the white house.

As far as I am concerned, when I rant, I rant about them. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they want to believe, but don't shove it down my throat when I already hold my own beliefs. If everyone minded their own house and stopped trying to belittle, change or convert everyone else, everything would be hunky-dory.

[Tyler Durden]

26. You must be joking.

This site is ANTI-RIGHT WING FUNDAMENTALIST NEOCONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN.

Nobody I see lumps them all together. As to your "...more people are hurt by Muslims every day...": if you make a generalized and religiously bigoted statement, you might expect some backlash, but your "...claim they are hypocrites, child molesters, perverts, abusers, and every other bad thing you can think of..." is patently nonsense.

I'm slightly offended by your statement about Muslims as I have had much contact with the Muslim Center outside of Flint Michigan through the United Church of Christ in Owosso, but you don't hear a polemic from me.

[Philosoraptor]

30. All Christians should be dragged into the street & shot...just kidding.

Stole that from John Cleese.

[Tyler Durden]

53. What's with the sig line?

You usually have something cool to say.

[Lerkfish]

28. its a matter of perspective.

But I would say that those who oppose religion are fanatical about it. And yes, that's an intentional ironical statement.

:)

[blondeatlast]

50. ...

:thumbsup:

[MrPrax]

31. Perhaps you have a cure?

I hope it's better than the one that cured Ted Haggard.

...and no I don't think ALL Christians are speed-freaky homophobic Nazi assholes who punch the puckered starfish of hookers when they are not out spreading hate messages...

But while we are on the subject of stupid generalizations meant to demonize entire religion:

You think ALL Muslims, everyday, are doing "genital mutilation, stoning women and gays, suicide bombings, etc"?

My word

[The Backlash Cometh]

32. It's like the word "government." We don't hate it, we just hate the people

who run it into the ground. And I agree that there has to be a better way to point out the distinctions.

It's not Christians, per se, that are the problem, it's an elite group of Christians who have used Christianity as a shield to cover their illicit intentions. They've fooled naive Christians by using the correct buzz-words to create divisions in our society. And those naive Christians think they have to pick sides in order to stay in good standing with their church and their beliefs. They form a barrier around the elite Christians <charlatans, really>, shielding them from our criticism, and allowing them to do all kinds of unGodly things.

So, the problem is that our language hasn't evolved enough to differentiate between malicious Christians, and naive Christians. And I agree that this makes our job harder, because each time we try to pelt the malicious Christians, if we hit a naive Christian, they become even more exploitable.

[wicket]

33. I'm christian, I've been posting on this site since 2001

I've never felt bashed or persecuted, though I have called a few out (usually disruptors) on painting all christians with a broad brush.

[porphyrian]

36. Yes, the entire board is anti-Christian.

The entire board is also entirely lacking in compassion.

</stupid>

[JHB]

37. Which "Christians" are we supposedly anti-?

Answer that question and you'll have half your answer right there.

[Blue-Jay]

38. Oh, ffs.

[yardwork]

44. Thank you.

-- A lesbian pagan.

[Maven]

180. Yes, thanks.

I should keep that graphic handy.

[smoogatz]

206. Actually

according to our recent poll, DU is majority atheist/agnostic/spiritual-but-not-religious. I imagine that for Christians who are used to being the dominant majority--and not at all used to have their views challenged loudly and in public--DU can feel like a bit of a minefield. I suspect that that experience is ultimately good fro them, however--if they have the balls to stick around.

http://www.blogreaderproject.com/Blogs/democratic-underground

[Hubert Flottz]

39. Lions 37

Christians 0 :evilgrin: Why do Christians hate sinners?

[msongs]

41. christianity is a fear based religion - the priest class uses that fear for $$ & control

if you're not a christian you're going to hell when you die. Not interested in that concept or any of the myths associated with it.
Not interested in the institutionalized discrimination and persecution against people who do not believe in those myths, perpetuated by the priest/minister class who derive money and power from perpetuating those myths. People can believe whatever they want as long as they keep it to themselves IMO.

BTW the ritual mutilation of children is very popular among christians. Its called genital mutilation of boys.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[theredpen]

391. This is bullshit and flame bait n/t

[John Gauger]

402. "Flamebait."

That's rich coming from you of all people.

[varkam]

406. Hey now

regardless of what you think of the person writing the message, I think the message is correct.

[John Gauger]

408. I didn't make any comment about what I think of theredpen

I just pointed out that he or she has been guilty of posting flamebait in the past. I didn't say I think that's wrong. I wasn't making a personal attack; theredpen accused someone of flamebait and I did exactly the same thing. I don't think the above message was bullshit, but I suppose something can be true and still be flamebait at the same time.

[theredpen]

414. It's still an ad hominem

If you didn't think the above message was bullshit, then state your reasons for believing so. Making the claim that I've posted flamebait as well does what? Impugn my credibility? What? What is the rhetorical value of your statement?

The statement to which I replied is not true. It may be true of a particular brand of Christianity, but it is a flat out inaccurate description of Christianity in general. If the commenter were to narrow the definition, that would be fine. Otherwise it stands as a falsehood by virtue of being an unfair generalization — at best.

[John Gauger]

415. I just appreciate irony, that's all.

I wanted to share with everybody the delightful irony I found in your pointing out that somebody else is posting flamebait. And the irony continues. You are angry at me for accusing you of flamebait, and yet I have done nothing different from what you just did. You accused somebody of flamabait, and then I accused somebody of flamebait. Then you got angry. That's irony. If you think accusing somebody of flamebait is an ad hominen, that's fair. I disagree - it's not like saying that his argument is wrong because he's Polish or he's drunk. It's simply saying that his statement is not intended to make an argument but to ruffle feathers.

I don't think the whole of Christianity is based on fear. I think it's based on fear and false promises. Not everybody is out to scare people into believing. Some people are just making false promises, namely the false promise of salvation. I also think religion is a racket. To be specific, the Catholic Church. My cousin just converted, and the first thing they did was ask her for money. They have been giving empty envelopes on the collection plate and my aunt wondered aloud how long it will take the Church to confront them about it (I don't know if they will or not; my aunt has been Catholic and I have not.) My friends and I were discussing religion and my friend told me that when she was little (six or seven) they used to separate the children and demand ten percent of each weeks allowance. That's preying on children. I think that's one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard. I also think that the Catholic Church uses fear. Remember when Bishops were refusing to give communion to Democrats? That's using the fear of damnation to coerce the desired behavior.

[theredpen]

416. Well, SOMEBODY is angry here

I'm not angry. I thought your comment was mildly insulting, but as they say, "You have to have a thick skin..." so I do.

Some people are just making false promises, namely the false promise of salvation.

This is an interesting claim. Do you have some method of determining who is an is not "saved"? (Can you even explain what that means?) Where is your proof that this is a "false promise"? At the very least, "salvation" is epistemologically objective within cultures that recognize a positive soteriology in the exact same way that "money" is epistemologically objective in cultures that represent abstract media of exchange. Both are ontologically subjective, but you're not going to tell me that money is a "false promise," are you? (Some people do — Ron Paul, notably.)

I also think religion is a racket. To be specific, the Catholic Church. My cousin just converted, and the first thing they did was ask her for money. They have been giving empty envelopes on the collection plate and my aunt wondered aloud how long it will take the Church to confront them about it (I don't know if they will or not; my aunt has been Catholic and I have not.) My friends and I were discussing religion and my friend told me that when she was little (six or seven) they used to separate the children and demand ten percent of each weeks allowance. That's preying on children. I think that's one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard.

Me, too, and honestly this is nothing I've ever heard of in a Catholic Church. If you don't have any money, you don't have to put anything in the collection plate. Putting an empty envelope in is a commission of scrupulousness, in my opinion. You might want to tell your relatives that scrupulousness is a (minor) sin.

Teaching children to give to Church is up to the parents. I'm sure the parents knew that the kids were being asked to chalk up their allowance. Also, this obsession with giving 10% is more prevalent in Protestant and "non-denominational" Churches, not Catholic Churches.

Remember when Bishops were refusing to give communion to Democrats? That's using the fear of damnation to coerce the desired behavior.

Being refused the Eucharist doesn't mean you are "damned." I don't know what kind of ignorant nutballs your family is involved with (no wonder you're angry), but you have a really skewed and mistaken understanding of Christianity and Catholicism.

[John Gauger]

417. I'm not angry either.

I thought you were. Never mind then. Well, I'm angry at religion, but not angry at anything said here.

I should have been more specific. By salvation, I mean admittance to heaven. I don't believe in the afterlife and therefore anybody that promises any kind of afterlife is making a false promise. I don't believe that they should make a promise about something which they cannot prove. Of course, they believe it so they can't really be expected to see anything wrong with spreading "the Truth."

My parents were both raised Catholic. Even though my grandmother is not Catholic, she demanded that my cousin marry in a Catholic church, so she and her husband converted. They have been attending but not giving money. I think the empty envelope is a great idea. I don't think the Catholic Church or any other deserves a dime, especially since they already paid the Church for the wedding when it happened. I'm not really concerned with the sins of my relatives. Sure, I'll laugh when I hear something funny about them, but I don't stick my nose into their business. If I did, I would have told them not to get married Catholic. They don't believe the doctrines, they just wanted access to the church for the wedding and I assume the baptisms (we have a weird rule in our family where all ceremonies must be Catholic, even though none of are actually Catholic except for the two who just converted.) They lied to get what they want, and if I had my say I would have told them not to do that. Come to think of it, they are lying by putting that empty envelope in the collection plate. I still think it's funny, but I don't think it's right.

My mother always told me that denial of the Eucharist meant damnation, but she hasn't attended a church in nearly thirty years. My mother despises the Catholic Church (and LDS, which are the two she has had direct contact with.) You're right, I don't get Catholicism. What's the point of taking the Eucharist if it doesn't get you into heaven? The "ignorant nutballs" my family have been involved with are the Catholic Church. All the horror stories I know are from direct experience with the Catholic Church. I don't know why they do the things they do either, though my mother says it's all about control. I also don't know why my family does the things they do either, by the way. My dad's mother demands that we do all the ceremonies Catholic but she herself despises the Catholic Church. I think it's just a prestige thing. When my father was confirmed, his uncle told him that he did not have to kiss the Bishop's ring. He said, "he's not anything special. They say he's better than you but he isn't. He's just an old man in a robe and a funny hat. You don't owe him anything and you don't have to kiss his ring." His parents flipped out, not because they respected the Bishop but because all their friends saw the ordeal.

[theredpen]

418. Major Issues...

With all due respect, your family's relationship with the Catholic Church sounds about as dysfunctional as you can get. I don't see why you're angry at religion when — by your own admission — your family members approach it as liars and hypocrites. I don't see how you can hold the Catholic Church responsible for any of this.

My parents were both raised Catholic. Even though my grandmother is not Catholic, she demanded that my cousin marry in a Catholic church, so she and her husband converted. They have been attending but not giving money. I think the empty envelope is a great idea. I don't think the Catholic Church or any other deserves a dime, especially since they already paid the Church for the wedding when it happened.

News flash: the parish leaders are probably well aware of the fact that your cousin and her husband are attending mass purely out of some sense of obligation and will likely disappear the week after they finish RCIA. That's why they probably seemed more interested in getting money for wedding fees than anything else — they recognize crass commerce when they see it. I assure you that if my wife and I decide to add a Church wedding on top of the civil ceremony that made us legally married, our church won't want anything more than needed to cover costs (mainly cleanup).

That's because our Church is a community. We donate money to keep it going, much like people here on DU donate money to keep it going. Nobody thinks that Skinner and EarlG et al. are running a money-making scam — they're running a community and it has costs.

[LWolf]

45. DU is not a single entity.

Look at how many members there are. DU is made up of a diverse group of people that really only have one thing in common: Dislike of the bush administration.

There are many xtians on DU. There are muslims, too. There are buddhists, athiests, pagans, and others.

It is probably natural to see people who are "anti-christian" on DU. Organized christian politics helped to put GWB into office, and still supports his regime.

I think you'll find many more people who are "anti" organized "christian" religion than you find people who are "anti" christ himself. The organized power structure that bears his name often doesn't represent him well.

If you'd like to explore the spiritual leanings and conversations on DU, check out some of the groups dedicated to that:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=292

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=237

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=359

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=291

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=262

[genie_weenie]

46. pointing out the evils, ignorance, historical errors, and basic

inconsistencies of a human made ideology is not "bashing". The bible is not the word of god, christianity is not true and all the good done supposedly in the name of religion was done by Men.

What we are seeing today is people who do not swallow the tripe of christianity are speaking out for the first time in a long time without fear of being burned at the stake or facing strappado, the pear of anguish or worse...

[Philosoraptor]

49. It's not too late to escape from this den of anti christian depravity.

If you hurry.

[riderinthestorm]

135. The exposure to differing opinions about religion can be toxic!

Damn DU for not eradicating all the sinners, heathens, infidels and non-believers! Damn DU for allowing critique, discussion and disagreement over religion, even including (gasp!) Christianity!

[bananas]

51. There are three topics on DU which are worse

1) The 911 forum is called "the dungeon" - posts don't appear on the latest threads page.
2) Posts to I/P appear on the latest threads page, but can't be recommended for the greatest page.
3) There are rumors of a forum called "the gungeon", but I've never seen it.

[supernova]

68. Hee Hee The gungeon

is still here, but now it's called Justic and Public Safety, I believe. ;-)

[Sadie4629]

115. I've already learned to avoid I/P!

Had no idea about the dungeon, and am totally intrigued by the gungeon. Tell me more!

[bananas]

332. Welcome to DU!

The dungeon is the September 11 forum http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125
It started out as discussions over how accurate the official conspiracy theory is.
The official conspiracy theory is that 19 Saudis conspired with bin Laden etc to do 911.
True believers in the official conspiracy theory argue heatedly with skeptics.
For some reason the moderators decided that any conspiracy theory thread should be moved there.

I think the gungeon is the Guns forum, don't know anything about it.
I used to think it was a typo.
Heated discussion of second amendment issues.

[Philosoraptor]

56. Shouldn't all religious people brace themselves for criticism?

I mean, all of them are criticized at some point, shouldn't religious people be a little more thick skinned?

[Matsubara]

173. Apparently, a lot of people's faith, is less than rock-solid.

How else to explain their constant demands to protect it from any and all differing views?

[Philosoraptor]

58. We're all going to hell, isn't that good enough?

[MyNameGoesHere]

59. Not DU really. But i am anti-christian

I personally think it a scourge on society and hopefully will die just as belief in the world being flat did. well mostly.

[MNDemNY]

145. Please, let that happen!

[SarahB]

63. I think DU is more accepting of Atheists and Agnostics in a country

that is founded on principles of humanism, but religion (especially in terms of illogical fundamentalism and creationism) is thrown in our faces and we continually have to fight to keep it from taking over where it doesn't belong.

[yy4me]

71. For what its worth, I believe the negative attitude you read is

directed at those who find it necessary to push their religion on others. Many of us were brought up to believe that religion belongs in the house of worship of your choice. Not to be peddled and pushed on those of other-or-no religion.

It should be a personal thing, separate from government. You should not have the right to lecture others on their beliefs. Worship should be done in your home or church. The airwaves should not bombard and condemn us if we do not agree with the person or organization doing the preaching.

[WinkyDink]

213. Islam is a very pushy religion.

[LostinVA]

79. Yummo -- pre-noon popcorn

:popcorn:

[Gormy Cuss]

91. Pass some over.

:popcorn:

[blondeatlast]

85. No.

Some are, most aren't, and if you don't make it an issue, it won't be an issue. You can ignore that faction quite easily.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

90. ...

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Pass the salt, willya?

[LostinVA]

95. ...

Here you go -- and, the butter is almost melted!

[canetoad]

133. Straight to the Duzies with you

Are they still around?

[LostinVA]

150. I think so -- I'm not sure who does them

[canetoad]

187. Can't recall seeing them for a while

It's helpful to have a compendium of the wit and wisdom of DU in one handy, pocket-sized pack.

[LostinVA]

246. Someone just told me it's "JeffR"

[Philosoraptor]

92. Jesus makes me tired...

[TZ]

94. It doesn't help that many Christians attack science

on a regular basis (ie "belief in evolution" vs. creationism). A recent poll showed that about 45% of Americans don't "believe" in evolution. Most of those are Christians,and that amount indicates its more than the radical fundie types fueling this atttitude.

[Sadie4629]

118. And many don't!

My son is a scientist-in-training, and he will vote bio-tech in any election.

[TZ]

290. Good to know...

I know better than to sterotype all Christians as the same but there sometimes seem to be a shortage of reasonable rational Christians (and you definitely seem to be one of those types). I think the obnoxious fundie idiots are a vocal lot and tend to drown out the moderates, and I think it causes a backlash on liberal sites like DU.:)

[Philosoraptor]

98. Seriously, why don't DUer's agree with ME on everything?

I swear, I constantly find people on here who don't totally agree with me, and that just really galls me.

[philosophie_en_rose]

107. I'm concerned about your concern. It's so concerning.

:rofl:

[supernova]

130. Hee Hee

Thaks for your concern. :D

[MNDemNY]

156. I am totally UNconcerned about your concerns, concerning that concern.

[Philosoraptor]

169. Christ on a crutch, constrain these constant conclaves of concern & consternation!

[MNDemNY]

178. I can be coerced into concern for Christ on a crutch.

[Philosoraptor]

192. Collectively we'll create a Christ/crutch coalition cult & conquer Canada!

[MNDemNY]

222. I concur

[philosophie_en_rose]

291. Seriously -- Is DU anti-concern?

:rofl:

[shadowknows69]

113. I pretty much agree with you on everything raptor

for what it's worth lol.

[canetoad]

288. You, you ...disciple

[zulchzulu]

101. This former Catholic is not anti-Christian...

As Obama has said recently, the Right Wing has hijacked Christianity as a meme. I've met many progressive Christians who are not to be stereotyped. They actually follow the ways of Jesus...

[LostinVA]

108. Great response

And, this ex Catholic is being married by a minister -- specifically DU's own (Rev.) Pacifist Patriot. If I was anti-Christian, why the heck wouldn't I just use a JP or other public official?

[shadowknows69]

117. This former christian is not anti-Jesus

In fact I'm a bigger Jesus fan now that I don't have someone else interpreting his words and works for me. Was he a divine being? No more so than any of us IMO but he taught from the heart and was wise.

[canetoad]

132. Well said Shadow

[LostinVA]

153. Very well said -- Jesus' words are full of love and compassion

I'll say it again: more people need to read I Corinthians Chapter 13.

[shadowknows69]

164. That's "The Wedding scriture" right Lost?

Love is not, love is etc etc etc?

If so, yeah that pretty much sums it up. Christians complicate their own religion beyond words. I'm surprised they don't debate more often the "begats" books. Did Jereboam really begat Rokaboahm who begat Stromboli, who begat Grandmaster Flash etc.

[canetoad]

194. I thought it was bottle begat magnum

who begat Jeroboam

[shadowknows69]

198. All I know

Is that those old testament folks fucked like rabbits.

[canetoad]

209. Glad you've moved the discussion to a higher level

:rofl:
:rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[shadowknows69]

256. If I wasn't supremely cynical and rude occasionally

well then I just wouldn't be me. B-)

[LostinVA]

244. Yup, it sure is

Even though that isn't in one of the Gospels, I think it's greta: word (including prayers) and gestures (including pious deeds) are worthless if there's no love behind them. Just "phila" love -- brotherly love.


on edit: "Stromboli" -- hahahahhahahhaha

[blondeatlast]

207. True that. I read Christ and try to live his words. but I no longer attend services

and am far more content for it.

[H2O Man]

109. No.

There are many people on DU. Some are Christians, some aren't. Most people are respectful of those who hold differing opinions. There are a few angry folks who find any form of religious belief very upsetting, but they tend to inhabit the DU religious forum. If you avoid that, you tend to be able to mingle with open-minded folks.

[LostinVA]

114. You darned Christian you!!!

hehehehehehhehe

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

121. "Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain

Christianity is a belief system much like Americanism, Capitalism, Communism, Fascism, etc, with a proclivity for insisting that it is the "one true" belief system. And, like all of the others, the belief system is full of holes, hypocrisy, lies, and abuse.

And, like other institutions and belief systems, it is not, and shouldn't be, immune from criticism, question, or scorn.

[shadowknows69]

126. Lol, I admit I'd never seen that "Twainism" until now

Brilliant.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

369. It just became my new sig. Check. -nt

[RedStateShame]

122. In fairness, I'd say it hurts that the most anti-Christian people in our nation...

...are the most prominent "Christians" in our nation. Where does helping the poor, loving they neighbor, and forgiving all transgressions against one fit in with Pat Robertson's schtick, for example? A long time ago, when I did attend church, a song my mom used to lead our choir in had the refrain, "They will know we are Christians by our love." Very few of us see that love, though.

[OHdem10]

125. There is a forum devoted to Religion--DU anti-Christian???

[Philosoraptor]

129. Maybe a map would help them find it.

[maggiegault]

127. I personally am anti-Christian

I don't see "good" Christians doing enough to stem the tide of religious dogmatic insanity from which this country currently suffers. Saying "not me!" isn't enough.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

128. yes all of us at du, are oppressing the powerful majority in our country.

:eyes: :sarcasm:

[Philosoraptor]

131. Soon they will ALL feel the weight of our secular jack boots on their throats!

[devilgrrl]

136. Why is this you ask? It's because of the Jews!!!!!

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[wryter2000]

138. I'm an agnostic

And I'm appalled at what people say about religion around here. IMHO, most of it is an attempt to make the poster look clever at others' expense. They act as if they, personally, made up "opiate of the masses" and put it out here so that we can admire their brilliance.

[MNDemNY]

140. Personally, I bash ALL religion.

King James "version"......How in the hell could there be more than 1 version of a supposedly divine work???? Phooey, it's all a bunch of crap used throughout history to keep the masses in check.

[NotGivingUp]

amen! nt

[cynatnite]

141. I'm anti-religion and I bash all of them n/t

[smoogatz]

142. Why do you feel it necessary to attack muslims

in order to defend your own faith? "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Matt. 7:5)

On edit: most of the anti-Christian ire of DU's atheist/agnostic/non-religious community (which comprises a majority of DUers, yes) is directed at fundamentalists, who seem thinly acquainted with the teachings of Christ (as demonstrated by the OP), ignorant of history and science, and whose political impulses are theo-fascist (God decides who our leaders are, a la Katherine Harris). There's a lot for reasonable people to dislike in what passes for fundamentalist teaching these days.

[BushOut06]

328. It's perfectly okay for Christians to attack Muslims

After all, Christianity "is" the true religion. :sarcasm:

[rhiannon55]

146. No, we're anti-stupidity,

and a lot of religious beliefs (including christian ones) and just plain stupid.

[demgurl]

148. I am not sure about everyone else....

but most Christians I have ever met (I was schooled in an all girls Catholic school until college) are decidedly unchristian.

I remember my Aunt being so embarrassed that I claimed no belief in God, in front of her friends no less, that she told my Dad I was never allowed to stay in her house again.

My Mom had this religious "breakthrough" years ago where she cried for all of her sins and was very repentant. That did not stop her from embezzling tens of thousands of dollars from me.

I have seen 'Christians' act in such awful ways. This is not to say there is no such thing as a good Christian or that some people do not have the best of intentions in their hearts.

On the upside, this has had a wonderful effect on me. I have never been more spiritual than I am at this point in time. I share my philosophy with others and more than ever I try to lead by example. I also feel that if you just took God and Jesus out of religion, the philosophy is just great and no one could point to an imaginary deity to say what they are doing is in 'his' name. They would only have instructions on how to lead their lives and maybe that is what we should all be concentrating on.

[elana i am]

151. no.

speaking as an atheist, whenever i comment on religion or read someone else's comments on religion, i consider it understood that "christians" refers to the dogmatic, fundamentalist-nutjob variety.

trolls aside, we lefties are all on the humanist side of the spectrum so i think it's also understood by most here that broad brushes are for painting houses, not for discourse among fellow humanists.

[mopinko]

152. per the blogger survey- more agnostics and atheists here

it isn't easy being an atheist sometimes. we would all like to have a big brother to go to for help, and would all like to have some pie in the sky. but we don't use those crutches, and we think that it would be good for everyone else to get up and walk on their own two feet, also.
maybe that isn't even fair, but it is kinda like this- if you don't lock your doors, and you get ripped off, not too many people will feel sorry for you. being a christian is a little like leaving your brain "unlocked". and i say that as someone who detests locks and keys. if you are going to insist there is a god, you should at least get a big dog.

[MNDemNY]

158. BONG HITS FOT JESUS

:hippie: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :headbang:

[MNDemNY]

159. Alou, that is.

[EVDebs]

162. No. DU is anti anti-Christian from what I've seen

Jesus wasn't an "insider" either. Speaking out can get you killed or harassed. Just look at *'s "new programs" in domestic spying. You can't tell me the R's haven't gone after progressives. We're all on one of their lists.

The Quakers found this out after putting a weblink up to the 14 Permanent Bases

http://www.fcnl.org/iraq/bases.htm

No, speaking truth to power...DU does that and supports it !

[Orsino]

163. You're imagining it, I think.

But thanks for your concern.

[gatorboy]

168. Oh, they didn't imagine it. They saw....

A vision

[Orsino]

204. LOL n/t

[Solo_in_MD]

167. Its clearly anti religous and ignorant about most of them as well

[Philosoraptor]

176. It's the Branch Davidiots I really hate.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

344. You're free to leave any time you like if you don't like it here.

I'm sure you'll find plenty of places in the real world (and in the unreal world too) that are more friendly to religion. Really, you should get out more.

[Solo_in_MD]

346. I'll stand by my answer - this place is mostly derisive towards people of faith

despite being mostly ignorant of those faiths. FWIW, I am not a person of faith...

I find it amusing that a self proclaimed communist talks about others being in an unreal world

[Philosoraptor]

171. It's time we face the fact that SATAN is all up in DU's ass.

[shadowknows69]

183. I knew I had some discomfort there this morning

I guess "Get behind me Satan" isn't necessarily the best place to send him in the excorcism.

[Philosoraptor]

196. Anusol will save us all.

[Marrah_G]

274. True!!!!!!!!

<---------------Just check out the avatar for proof.

Fried babies and kittens anyone? It's cooked in Newt (Gingrich) oil, so you know you wanna!

Yummmmmmmm

[rucky]

175. If you ask 6 DUers a question about anything...

you'll get 10 different opinions.

You really can't say DU is anything but a forum chock-full o' different viewpoints that happen to be labeled "Democratic" whatever that means.

[MNDemNY]

184. That's the best part of DU

[progressoid]

181. I think what you are feeling is just the beginning.

I think (I hope) there is about to become a more vocal anti-religion voice nation wide (better yet, globally). It's not just an anti-Xian thing - you just happen to be in the majority here. A lot of us are sick of everything revolving around God/Jesus/Ten Commandments/Islam/Moses/Blah/Blah/Blah etc.

We know the world would progress better with out having to consult the representative for somebody's god first for advice.
We've found that logic and reason serve the planet better than fighting over which interpretation of which translation of which prophet is right.
We're tired of having to pussy-foot around topics because it might upset the baby Jesus.
We're tired of pretending.

Atheists, Agnostics, secular humanists, non-believers, what ever you want to call us, are experiencing an awakening. We're coming out of the closet. Get used to it.

[Justpat]

224. Amen to that!

[Philosoraptor]

318. Get used to it is right, never thought I'd live to see it.

[heidler1]

365. In a back handed way perhaps Bush has caused it all. He talked to God

and for some obscure reason this God gave Bush bum advice. What could possibly be more worthless than a professed man of God who is so easily led down a path of one failure after another? We are all desperately trying to diminish Bush's influence and yes siree nailing him to his declared faith is working in my opinion. Yeah, and there's the fact that all different Christian majorities voted for Bush.

[PurityOfEssence]

182. No, it's just that too many believers feel they're superior, immune and privileged

Everybody should be willing to stand up and take hits for their beliefs, yet far too many believers feel singled out if they get any static at all.

There is a belief among most believers that belief is by definition "good", thus any criticism is persecution. I flat-out disagree. To me, belief in it's basic form is certainty, and certainty is the enemy of thought and pluralism. Expecting one's personal superstition and guesses-held-as-facts to be above reproach is an expression of privilege.

Non-believers take many hits here and so do believers. The problem is that there are many more believers, so if the slagging was distributed evenly, you'd still hear far more derision against belief.

The dynamic is basically this: if one EVER challenges christianity's self-image of being good and decent, one is persecuting. This doesn't sit well with those of us who've been truly marginalized for not being of the sanctified norm.

Everyone has to stand up and face the music for his/her beliefs, or he/she's not playing fair.

I'll take the heat for Stalin and Pol-Pot, but you need to take the heat for Hitler, Franco, Jim Jones, and an endless list of faith-based maniacs.

[MNDemNY]

185. They can have bushco as well

[kineneb]

186. well, now, there are "Christians" and "followers of Joshua ben Joseph"

Many "Christians" create more hot air than anything else, and try to force their beliefs on others, whether those others want their religion or not. Their favorite NT book is often Revelations.

Then there are the "followers of Joshua ben Joseph", who may or may not consider themselves "christians", but want to live good, ethical, compassionate lives. They prefer to read the "red letter" portions of the Synoptic Gospels, and try to understand the message within its historical context, and then apply the teachings to their own lives.

As a Buddhist, I am one of the latter. Jesus' teachings are quite similar to Buddha's.

[More Than A Feeling]

193. Where is Buddha supposed to have said anything about believing in a god of the type

Jesus most likely supposed to have meant (eternal, abrahamic god)? If you mean simply the moral code, it has nothing to do with Jesus or Buddha at all. Moral codes are not good because some religious guru said they were good, they are good because they enable people to get along with each other.

[kineneb]

223. I don't have to believe to be a better person

The universe is a large place, whether there is a "god" or not really doesn't matter (to me, at least). Both the Buddha and Jesus were trying to point out that how one lives one's life, and how one treats others is what is important.

Yes, Jesus, as a Jew, emphasized loving God first, but "loving your neighbor as yourself" was his choice as the 2nd most important of the commandments.

The Five Precepts of Buddhism are all about not harming others or onesself.

I don't see a problem with either of these. They are suggestions for leading a better life and making the world a better place.

[More Than A Feeling]

245. It's more than that.

Jesus and Buddha are both supposed to have said, "given that the universe is like this, you should act like that." Jesus said, "go and risk doing very good things, because your father in heaven will make sure you are provided for." The existence of a "father in heaven" is integral to the whole system. Buddha said that things are impermanent and have no inherent existence, therefore you will suffer if you want them to be permanent and inherently existing, therefore, act well towards other people in order to break free of desire, anger, etc. If permanence and inherent existence do exist, then the Buddha was wrong, and the system doesn't work.

[nini]

189. No .. DU is anti-fanatic

though some folks here get fanatical when bashing something they perceive is fanatical. But they don't see that in themselves. ;-)

[blondeatlast]

203. Damn you, you're just so, so, so, SENSIBLE!

I love you! :hug:

[nini]

205. well thank you sweetie!

:hug:


:D

[On the Road]

190. What Kills Me About a Thread Like This

is that there are equal amounts of:

- negative Christian stereotypes
- Half-educated interpretations of the Bible and religious history, and

- Complete astonishment at suggestions of anti-Christian sentiment

Nobody knows the exact pattern of personal beliefs here, so all we have to go on are how the posts are distributed. By that measure, DU is clearly anti-Christian.

It probably comes from the fact that our political opponents tend to use political issues for political gain. And the friend of my enemy is my enemy. That is emotionally more powerful than expressions of faith by Democratic candidates.

[Lerkfish]

191. here is a case in point: the difference in response to a buddhist and a christian thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1190941&mesg_id=1190941

66 recommendations, all responses positive (which is good) for a thread that merely quotes buddhist philosophy

In fact, the only negative posts are those in response to my pointing out a christian thread would not fare as well here

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1193842&mesg_id=1193842

1 recommendation and a lot of hostility for a thread that merely quotes christian philosophy.

both threads quote philosophies on how to get along with fellow man.

I think conclusions can be drawn, easily enough.

[More Than A Feeling]

200. And that conclusion is that morality goes down easier when it doesn't involve

sky daddies.

[Lerkfish]

212. Tha'ts one conclusion, certainly

another conclusion is that there is open hostility against christians at DU from people who have negative baggage in their own life experiences regarding christian churches they attended or were forced to attend. Since Buddhist churches are not normally part of people's developmental life experience, its philosophy can be viewed with little or no existing negative baggage, and is therefore considered a "positive" thread, whereas it still attempts to proselytize towards the buddhist viewpoint. That proselytizing is viewed as "enlightenment", whereas an exactly similar thread from a christian is viewed as wearing ones religion on their sleeve, or trying to cram their viewpoint down the throat of others.

my experiment was to point out the different perceptions here at DU, and it was a successful experiment, proving my point in spades.

[mondo joe]

210. There's nothing in the "Buddhist" post that is actually religious.

Nothing about it says" Do this because Buddha says" or "Buddha tells you to do this."

[Lerkfish]

214. the buddhist post is not trying to quote from buddhism?

was it not a direct quote from their text?

[mondo joe]

234. Which text?

Moreover, what in the quote is a commandment from a deity, a religious test or in any way dependent on religion?

"Be nice" doesn't need a religion to back it up.

[Solon]

322. First, Buddhists don't have a single "text", second, its was a FUCKING SPEECH from 1989!

Not comparable to ANY scripture from any religion! It wasn't even a proper quote, but a list of suggestions from a guy who just happens to be Buddhist, not a text on Buddhist teachings. Learn about a religion before spouting about it.

[Goblinmonger]

225. Here's the difference to me

though I posted on neither.

I am sick and tired of Christian crap being shoved down my throat in this country. I'm sick of it. Sorry if that spills over to the good Christians, but that's the way it is. The RW fundies have ruined it for you. Take it up with them. Fight against them. Reclaim your religion and maybe you will find me less likely to knee-jerk when I don't have your sky daddy thrown at me daily.

That doesn't happen with Buddhism because, well, they are a pretty small minority. It is refreshing to see something like that. And it isn't religious. And it doesn't involve a quotation from a guy that probably didn't even exist. But I digress.

[Lerkfish]

265. bravo! we are like minded.

that's exactly my argument.

people here have open hostility against christians because of previous personal negative baggage, which they are unable to differentiate from those experiences to a fair or human interaction, and on the obverse, their limited experience with Buddhism allows them to treat buddhists respectfully as individuals.

in other words, those who claim to be anti-religious are hypocritical in how they treat all religions, preferring to heap the largest abuse on christians, no matter who they are, and give a pass to every other religion...

so, yes! I agree with you. that IS how the bigotry works! thanks for your candor.

[Goblinmonger]

273. Wow

way to take my words and twist them into a nice strawman. Hope you had fun with that little project.

And so you know, I think pretty much all religions are equally bad and equally good.

And my point was as to why people did not respond to your little "experiment" but did to the other thread, not as to "respect" for your particular dogma.

But you keep thinking what you want about my "bigotry."

[Lerkfish]

277. How do you reconcile this statement in your previous post with this post?

"I am sick and tired of Christian crap being shoved down my throat in this country. I'm sick of it. Sorry if that spills over to the good Christians, but that's the way it is. The RW fundies have ruined it for you. Take it up with them. Fight against them. Reclaim your religion and maybe you will find me less likely to knee-jerk when I don't have your sky daddy thrown at me daily."

[Goblinmonger]

324. Quite easily actually.

The post you quote was an explanation as to why more people didn't post on your "experiement." I know it might be tough for you to realize that because that is what I said it was, but I guess expecting you to read all the instructions before putting together your new strawman is asking a little too much.

You then take my explanation as to why people didn't post on your beatitudes and make that into me being "openly hostile" toward Christians. See, I was saying exactly the opposite. I was saying having Christianity shoved down my throat was actually make people NOT respond rather than making them respond in a hostile manner.

Keep trying, though. You only see vocal atheists as picking on poor little Christians.

[BushOut06]

329. I don't see anyone bashing your Christian scripture thread

I see a few sarcastic, humorous responses - ie "Cheesemakers" - but no outright hostility. Suffer from a persecution complex, do you?

[ananda]

197. are xtians anti-Du?

nt

[leeroysphitz]

202. I've never had to contend with Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Brahmans,

Buddhists, Animists, Zoroastrians or Rastafarians using the federal government to try and force me to obey a creed I don't believe in, force my wife, sister and my mother into second class citizenship, and force me to allow my children to be taught outrageous lies in place of the truth, etc... etc..

Only American Christians™ have tried to oppress me and my family in this maner but you may rest assured that if any of the other religions listed above try it I'll show them the same contempt and call them out just as strongly as I do Christianity.

[firefox_fan]

211. Seriously, is this flame bait?

[gatorboy]

235. Does the Pope wear a funny hat?

[firefox_fan]

241. Funny hat, evil face.

[LostinVA]

269. It is feeling kinda warm, eh?

[kwassa]

215. Is the Pope Catholic?

Yes, DU is generally anti-Christian, in my personal opinion, based strictly on numbers.

Of course, it depends on how defines "Christian" which has many competing definitions. There is certainly a strong and sizable contingent against pretty much any definition in this forum, however.

Some highly vocal atheist members here show great disrespect for religion, and pose the argument, which has no validity to me, that they suffer much in larger society, and therefore have the right to attack believers here and ridicule their beliefs. This forum is seen as their balance, and liberal believers should just put up with it.

Others are far more respectful, and wish to engage believers in reasoned discussion. Those are much more enjoyable, from my point of view.

I've learned to develop a thick skin, and ignore most religion threads altogether, because of the low level of discussion.

[Lerkfish]

218. a very wise post, thank you.

[Goblinmonger]

228. Funny you bring up the Pope.

Do you not think there are SIGNIFICANT problems with the hierarchy of the Catholic Church? Do you not think that Cardinal Law should have had some fate other than a promotion to the vatican for his covering up many, many, many, many cases of sexual abuse against young Catholics? And god forbid you mention that here or you are Catholic bashing.

But I know, I'm one of those vocal atheists, so :shrug:

[nini]

267. I was raised Catholic and I'll answer your questions

The Catholics I know think Cardinal Law should be hung by his balls from the highest tree, they believe the coverup of the priests is immoral and illegal.

Catholics come in all flavors just like anyone else. The heirarchy has always been an issue with me - organized religion in general is actually.

So, while there are certainly Catholics with their heads up their asses regarding the actions of the Vatican and higher ups, there are just as many if not more that want justice for all you mention and are ashamed of what has happened. I guess what I'm saying is they can follow the true teachings of Christ better than those in charge can.


It's not just vocal atheists who see the wrong that occurred. ;-)

[Goblinmonger]

275. I have no problems with what you say.

Just so you know, any tone of "voice" you may have "heard" was aimed at kwassa. We have a nice little history over in the R/T forum.

I, too, was raised Catholic (spent 4 years at a high school seminary). I know many Catholics, like you do, who are pissed at Law's promotion. But the hierarchy of the church is messed up. And if I ever say that, odds are that someone will tell me I am Catholic bashing.

I have no problem with the average, individual catholic. Thanks for the response.

[nini]

281. Catholic heirarchy 'bashing' won't bother any level headed Catholic

because they know there is truth to the issues with the heirarchy. It's hard to separate things at times but if one keeps perspective on the issue they will understand the criticism.


I'm afraid to go check out the R/T forum :scared: :D

[Goblinmonger]

325. I have problems with the dogma, too

but that's why I'm not a Catholic anymore, I guess (that a lack of a belief in god kinda limits your options in Christianity, I guess).

R/T isn't bad. Actually I think GD gets a little more savage. R/T is clearly for those that want to duke it out and not for those that take offense at any questioning of your particular viewpoint. I think you would do fine there.

[nini]

264. I think there is a valid argument that atheists suffer in society more

Perhaps you don't think so but imagine an atheist in the bible belt etc.. It's all relative to what the consensus is where you are.

The fact there is even a question about an atheist running for president proves there is a problem with atheists in the mind of the masses.

There are the militant atheists that go overboard just as there are fundie Christians that do the same. However, there is room in the world for the rest of us who may not believe what someone else does but respects it none the less. The loud mouths are the ones causing most of the grief over religious issues. In our society today I believe the religious fanatics are the problem, but this doesn't mean I think everyone who does believe falls into that category.


btw: Just to clarify - I am not an atheist, but I do understand their points and respect their beliefs or non beliefs.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

219. Christ Rocks

As a gay Christian, I think Christianity is great.

I mean any religion that worships a man conceived out of wedlock, born from a virgin, who himself never marrried and hung around 12 men can't be all bad.

It's certainly a story that raises the time old issue: do we really need heterosexuality? ok... that was :sarcasm:

I think if he walked this earth again, some misguided 'Christian' would kill him for being a 'faggot'.

[Marrah_G]

220. I think I can explain why

You need to first realize the right wing of the Christian movement grew very quickly in recent decades. They are all over TV and the radio, their megachurches take overwhole towns and they actively teach that non-christians are evil. They have also implemented their religious views into local, state and federal politics without any concern about people not of their faith. When you look at the huge number of these people and their effect on our political system then I think it will become more clear.

If Muslims were actively trying to implement Sharia law in the US then you would see the same sort of attitude, much like what is happening in some European countries.

SO yes, Christians tend to get lumped together here, it may not be right, but it is reality. These right wing Christians are no longer "fringe" elements. They have huge numbers and use those numbers to influence politians into turning the US into a Theological state.

[Sadie4629]

272. Thank you

You explained it very well. It's unfortunate that it has come to this.

[sampsonblk]

227. Yes, here's why

Many of us contend that Bush's policies are plainly un-christian. In my view, those christians who have been supporting these disgusting policies should educate themselves and realize how far they have removed themselves from the bible's mandates and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But if/when those people realize their errors, they are not welcome here. Because of their beliefs on homosexuality, marriage and abortion. They'll get their heads chopped off.

At this site, the opposition to those beliefs is vehement. Vitriolic, even.

[1monster]

233. I'm neutral. Some of the best people I've known are Christiain. Some of the worst

people I've known are Christian. And the inverse is true.

However, for some reason those that are the worst "Christians" are the ones who have the BIGGEST MOUTHS and get the most press and air time.

Those are the ones who garner the contempt of DU.

[PATRICK]

236. No, but

I sort of miss the anti-communists even though those stalwart socialists are not as numerous here(an instinctive impression). As a matter of self-preservation I admit to thinking it OK to beat up on possible trolls and freepers invading the forums and to great temptation regarding Third Way appearances here and there. Oddly, the Christians here pretty much realize that the Christians or history people really want to bash are not here at all and that the misery of institutional wrongs by all races, faiths, tribes etc. has been a blot on everyone's heritage one way or another. The ideological atheists are fascinating. Knowing one's church means one has a good taste of what reactionary fanaticism is all about and who is being death marched on the road of good intentions is curiously made up of mostly people of good will. The fact that God has the modesty and decency to be fairly silent of the day to day matter of the existence of God shows that believers should be the last ones to make it an issue of blatant persecution and bullying. The issue of the obvious freedom and reasoning of humankind would be similarly curiously deflated by using an ultimate answer as a contradictory red herring. I think we have to be perfectly satisfied to postpone the ultimate purposeless debate until the after life- if any. That rendevous should satisfy all parties.

Meanwhile it comes to good human setting aside the barriers and wrongdoing to promote the common good. Religionists or atheists or anything in between that block what each SAYS is the existential proof in the pudding, people and person here and now and the future at stake are confusing, backsliding and outright lying and wrong about what they purport to boldly represent- an ultimate ground of all existence that can be boxed in a small jello mold of gray matter for some decades of good years before rotting. Living a good life is the only thing that can break that silly idol out of the proud skull.

Atheists should be angry and on guard and challenging. The history of my own Church shows that is very prudent. But let's be gentle with each other in this world made much too cruel by more manipulative and thriving liars who- are not here. We have a lot of building work to do and any faithful atheist is welcome in this foxhole, and fervent, shared, decent prayers are more fitting than concerns about the direction or dogma of individual reasoning systems.

[JerseygirlCT]

239. I think there are a good number of people who are angry at

what they perceive as attacks by Christians on their atheism, or on their rights.

Of course, they're stereotyping, as many Christians -- the majority, in fact -- don't fall under that umbrella.

But they've been hurt -- some badly, and this is a safe place to lash out. I think some are beginning to realize that lashing out risks hurting other people who are right beside them on political issues.

Like so much, it's nuanced, and too many people aren't comfortable with that.

Hang in, there are lots of good people, lots of good non-Christians and atheists, too. What you see is the frustrated venting of a few, I think.

[Bluerthanblue]

296. good words, thank you for

this- i agree.

:hi:

peace,
blu

[Nikki Stone1]

252. Looks like another board is closing and we're getting the fallout.

"more people are hurt by Muslims every day"

[Bluebear]

259. 'If I point out that more people are hurt by Muslims' - So why was that necessary?

I don't know who 'lumps all Christians together as child molesters', etc., but you yourself start your presentation with an attack of another religion. Did it occur to you that there may be Muslim members here?

It is that arrogance and "my god is better than your god" thinking that is maddening and the root of a lot of the world's trouble.

I like this Jesus, it is some of his followers that leave much to be desired.

[Nikki Stone1]

263. Because it's a RW talkiing point

The war on terror IS the war on Muslims for the RW

[Bluebear]

270. Poor Sadie - the OP is relatively new here & doesn't know she is spouting RW talking points!

You will find comfort here, Sadie. Liberal Christians are awesome people and hopefully you will learn not to bash other religions in celebration of yours!

[LostinVA]

282. I think you know why, Bluebear

[K8-EEE]

268. I was actually a church going Christian before 2004

When I saw all the "religious value voters" getting behind that warmongering killer, I started questioning the value of it.

I wouldn't say I hate Christians - but having seen how easily their religion can be used to make some very tragic realities possible, I don't have a ton of respect left for that religion, and I do FLAT OUT HATE IT WHEN SOMEBODY ATTEMPTS TO CONVERT ME! I have gotten a little less tolerant on those pamphleting Xtians on the street.

[shadowknows69]

271. High K8-EEE

How ya been! :hi:

[Initech]

278. It's because the most vocal Christians tend to be the craziest.

And Christianity has more than their fare share of crazies.

1. Let's talk the rapture. Sure, other religions have had their fair share of end of the world conspiracy theories, but none are as crazy as the Rapture. The fact that their messiah is one day going to come around again, and all those who believe will get called up to heaven. It's way out there, and there are people who have thought this through extensively. Think the poorly written "Left Behind" series, for instance.

2. It's not just their spokespeople like Falwell, Robertson, et al. I read stories on here constantly about how users here are given the 3rd degree from relatives about not believing in Christianity, etc.

3. And their spokespeople. No other religion on EARTH has anything remotely comparable to televangelism. Televangelism has transformed the religion into a multi-billion dollar empire. There's Christian books, movies, music, radio stations, television stations, I've even heard of an all-Christian satellite television provider. It's no longer religion, it's just a business like any other. To quote one of my favorite bands, Queensryche, "Selling skin, selling God, the numbers look the same on your credit cards." Televangelism has also created a whole new level of bigotry, with homosexuals, liberals, drug users, and anyone who doesn't buy into their outrageous right-wing rhetoric being the target. And people watch these programs, believe this crap, and send them millions of dollars a year. And they use it to get their hands in something where they don't belong: the U.S. government. It's insane.

[sampsonblk]

300. ie, its fine as long as they shut up...

about what they actually believe?

[Initech]

304. No. That's not what I said.

It's not the ones who are the most vocal, maybe it's just the ones they choose to be their spokespeople. Or the ones they choose to elect.

[mondo joe]

305. I consider your religious beliefs personal. Like masturbation.

I can take hearing about either, but sometimes it's just uncalled for.

[Bjornsdotter]

283. My opinion

....have faith, great leave it at home.

I think we should look at faith like porn.....everyone's idea of porn is different, we can share it with important people in our lives, but it's not always suitable to share with everyone.

Cheers

[fightthegoodfightnow]

286. What a Great Analogy

:rofl:

[blondeatlast]

299. Yep.

:thumbsup:

[amb123]

284. I despise fundamentalists, no matter what religion they are.

Especially those who believe they have a God-given right to use government power to impose their beliefs on me. They want to use the law to force me to hate and discriminate. I have absolutely no right given to me by God or by the Constitution to say to anyone that their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are wrong. All I can do is explain why I don't share someone’s beliefs. They accept my explanation and get on with their lives or they don't - and they get on with their lives. I believe that it is impossible for a free society to exist without the separation of church and state. There is NO freedom without church/state separation. Fundamentalism is the most dangerous threat to the future existence of the human race and the only way to stop the threat is church/state separation.

[bigmonkey]

285. It wouldn't be unfair, I think, to say there are some DUers who are anti-Christian.

The site is not. But those few are so full of energy that discussions about religion often turn into flamefests.

As a beginning scholar of religion, it does grate on me that some have decided to hate "religion," when the term itself is really quite vague, and covers a wide range of phenomena. I think for a lot of the haters, they haven't actually made a distinction between Right-Wing Christianity (which I call Christian Nationalism) and religion itself. Of course some with a lot of animus will be better informed than that.

[alstephenson]

289. No.

[Prophet 451]

292. No, but some of the posters are

Some of the posters are very anti-religion. I don't think that's specific to Christianity so much as Christianity is the biggest target because we're surrounded by it.

And for the record, not Christian.

[BlooInBloo]

298. Awww your concern is cute.

[DFW]

301. I'm anti-bad apple

I don't care what religion (if any) they claim to adhere to.

[sniffa]

308. great, another persecuted christian.

quit bogarting that crucifix.

[Philosoraptor]

310. ReaLLy siLLy ain't it?

[Chulanowa]

309. You've never seen Christian-bashing

Ever. While people like you may wring their hands about those horrible secularists saying "happy holidays" and consider the presence of any religion other than Christianity in America to be "persecution", there are in fact members of your faith in the world who have to literally live underground for fear of being dragged out and killed for it.

Why the "anti-Christian bias" here? because, whether they want to admit it or not, Christians are the only religion that "counts" in America. Oh, the others along with the non-religious are allowed to exist, sure. But tell someone you're an atheist. Try to run for office as a Wiccan. Live a day as an open Muslim in even a nice liberal place in America. It's an unspoken but very real fact that America's non-Christians enjoy a second- and third-class position. Call it a blowback reaction on DU - Christians are in charge everywhere else, and people would rather be on equal footing here.

[Lerkfish]

313. "blowback reaction on DU"

precisely. you do realize you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, here.
You claim there is no bashing, then you proceed to explain why the bashing occurs.

[Chulanowa]

315. You misunderstand

I said that American Christians really have no concept of what actually being "bashed" is like. There are no high figures in politics decrying their entire religion as being thugs and murderers, or their beliefs making them inherently immoral and untrustworthy. Haven't seen too many Christians get tied up to a fence and beaten nearly to death for wearing a crucifix. Nobody goes around at Christmas passing out pamphlets that claim Christians are going to kill and eat babies to worship their dark lord of the dead. And in a stark contrast to Christians living in, say, Iraq, American Christians are in no danger of being completely eradicated from this country due to their faith.

Thus, the claims of "bashing" and "persecution" are pretty damn laughable.

I admit there can be an anti-christian Bias on DU. This is because the rest of the time we're living in a word of anti-nonchristian bias.

[Lerkfish]

321. thanks for the clarification. I agree with you, then.

[DainBramaged]

311. This is Democratic Underground that's why

we believe in freedom of speech, we believe that, if Man Coulter can wish death on the living, we can make fun of the dead, and since I believe my God is a benevolent God with a sense of humor, why not kick him in the shins and burn a bag of shit on his doorstop every once in a while.

Believe in you god and don't take offense, God doesn't seem to mind.


"Nuff said

[calimary]

312. This life-long Catholic doesn't think so. Seems to me what we're against

is UN-Christianly mindsets and activities from the hate-thy-neighbor/kill-the-infidels-for-Christ/blessesd-are-the-war-makers/hypocrites out there who wrap themselves around the Cross and the Bible and do NOTHING to further the teachings of the Prince of Peace.

[MasonJar]

320. Bush and his rhetoric are giving Christianity a bad name. The holier than

thou population in all religions is killing religion, in my opinion. I love the teachings of Christ, but I despair at the way humankind blemishes those ideals and the ideals of other peace-loving philosophies.

[in_cog_ni_to]

326. Christianity is fine by me if you keep it yourself. It's the Proselytizing and endless preaching and

shoving their religion down people's throats that turns me off. You want to practice your faith? FINE BY ME...but I REALLY don't want people preaching to me. That's MY issue with the Christians and the fact they expect everyone else to bow to THEIR religion. The War on Christmas (total bullshit)...The war on Easter (more bullshit)....prayers in schools (extreme bullshit)....prayers in Congress.....prayers on the football fields.....no respect for other people's religious Holidays and knocking on MY FRONT DOOR to preach to me when they have no business doing so. I think it all boils down to arrogance. Simple arrogance. Not to mention the evangelicals trying to take over our government and turn it into a THEOCRACY. NO THANK YOU. I'm not anti-Christian. I'm..... keep your religion to yourself and we'll get along just fine.

[LostinVA]

330. Pretty hit and run, gang

[HEyHEY]

335. "more people are hurt by muslims everyday"

I think you just nailed why people have a problem

[MedleyMisty]

336. Personally I am anti-religion

but, no matter how much people with persecution complexes protest, that does not mean that I am anti-religious people.

Concepts are not people. People deserve respect, but not concepts. You are not religion, and when I point out the failings of religion and how it's speeding up the destruction of the species and the planet I am not talking about you personally.

You are free to believe in whatever you want, and I am free to discuss my belief that your beliefs can be pretty stupid and cause a lot of problems. You are then free to disagree or agree with that or hate me or put me on ignore or whatever and go on with your life. If I tried to outlaw your beliefs or, I don't know, make it illegal for you to marry a person of the opposite sex or force you (or the women in your life if you're male) to have an abortion, then we can talk about persecution. And when I post something like, "Christians are horrible and awful and I hate them all.", then we can talk about bashing.

Maybe there is some bashing on DU, but mostly what I see is discussion about concepts by people who generally don't hold concepts sacred and don't tiptoe around them. If you can't handle that but you really want to stay on DU, it's a lot better to use the ignore and hide thread functions than it is to tell other people what they can and can't talk about.

[Amonester]

343. Thank you.

Honest description of reality, IMHO.

I will now try to "offend" some people (on purpose), hoping they will click that infamous "Ignore" button! LOL!

Here it goes: I didn't know Joshua spoke English! :evilgrin:

[otherlander]

341. Let's see...

A long-haired guy comes along when there are a bunch of people killing each other, and says, "No, don't kill each other! Drink this delicious wine, and be nice to each other! Help the poor!" and gets nailed to a tree and dies.

Nah. I can sympathize with a guy like that. Human kindness, social justice, and lots of good wine. The whole immortal-being-taking-care-of-your-soul-after-you-die concept isn't exactly my kinda thing, I mean personally I think you just decay and get eaten by trees and dandillions and earthworms, but if you want to believe that, go ahead.

[LBJDemocrat]

342. Seems that way sometimes

I've cut back on posting here because the anti-Christian stuff has been killing my enthusiasm for this board.

It seems all to often, I read virulent posts about Christianity. If Christians were a minority, many of these posts would be unacceptable. Of course, Christians make up the majority of this country, so it isn't as painful as frightening as it would be otherwise. Nevertheless, it's disgusting, especially considering I have not seen ONE SINGLE Christian on this board using the same kind of language against atheism.

[Bluebear]

347. 'I've cut back on posting here' - in a month?

Which virulent posts about Christianity? Have you alerted on them?

[blondeatlast]

356. Let's see--461 posts, about 40 days--wow, I really miss

ol' whatsisname now that he's curtailed his posting... :eyes: :rofl:

[riderinthestorm]

352. Then you have just outed yourself as a newbie, just a tiny babe here.

There are historic flamewars on DU telling atheists/agnostics to shut up and get to the back of the bus for "alienating" potential Dems. The author of the OP, on this very thread, bewails non-believers who would turn off her potential-DU-posting-Christian friends with their challenges. The author of the OP actually believes we should censor ourselves for challenging theology (she's a christian, so for her, it's all about christianity).

Do a search and get educated. Non-believers are REGULARLY slammed here in GD, in the R/T forum and elsewhere.

Personally, as an atheist in Billy Graham-land, I KNOW firsthand of the verbal, psychological and social abuse atheists can and do inspire in a community. DU is no different. Christians calling the waaambulance about being challenged on their theology on an open message board are too fragile imho to confront their faith and deal with it's ambiguities and inconsistencies.

Grow a thicker skin or get off the board. It's as simple as that. Either your faith is strong enough to fight back or you need to slink away if you can't find a a way to defend your position. Don't blame "DU" though for not coming to your rescue in order to maintain your "enthusiasm" since they allow for rough and tumble verbal confrontations.

Welcome to the new world.

[Solon]

348. A note on Female Genital Mutilation, it isn't Muslim, its cultural...

Muslims, Jews, Christians, and Animists all practice it in various places in Africa and it isn't widely practiced outside of these places. The fact that you think of it as a Uniquely Muslim practice just shows your ignorance. I can condemn Christians of the same practice, if it makes you feel any better.

As far as Suicide bombings and stoning women and gays, well, it depends on geographic location, plenty of Palestinian Christians have committed suicide bombings, a unique group, neither Christian nor Muslim, but a combination of the two, in Iraq, stoned a young woman for converting from their religion to Islam. In addition, I could mention Hindu fanatics who attack or bomb mosques and attack Islamic neighborhoods in India, etc.

The fact is that all religions have their crazies, even Buddhists, look at Sri Lanka for some examples.

[DemBones DemBones]

349. Yes, and it is very harmful to progressive and liberal causes, and to the Democratic Party.

To anyone who doesn't realize what a very small sampling of the progressive/liberal/Democratic population DU represents, it "proves" that progressives/liberals/Democrats hate Christians and Christianity.

Most people in the US are Christian, even if only nominally so, so it's just plain stupid to bash Christians and Christianity here or anywhere else where you may be seen as "representing" progressives/liberals/Democrats.

If DUers were smart, they would criticize only Republicans and criminals. No Christian-bashing, no red-state or South-bashing.

But I've been fighting this fight for five years to no avail, trying to convince DUers how counterproductive such posts are.

I suspect that much of the anti-Christian junk posted here is posted by paid GOP operatives or FReepers out to discredit us.

[John Gauger]

404. I don't post on this forum to get people to like me

or the Democratic Party. I post on this forum to express my views. I will not censor myself to avoid offending anybody. I am more interested in being right than being popular. I will criticize anybody I please. If they are Republicans or criminals, okay. If they are Southerners or Christians, so be it. They do not get a free pass, not from me anyway.

As for your thing about GOP operatives or FReepers: I gave up long ago thinking, "They couldn't possibly genuinely believe that." Yes, people really are that stupid.

[theredpen]

413. That's abundantly obvious ;-) n/t

[Skittles]

350. I don't know about DU but I certainly am

I am absolutely sick of them

[WillyT]

353. No... It's Just Me...

:evilgrin:

[dysfunctional press]

354. i don't know about du, but i generally am.

but i despise ALL religions equally.

[Strawman]

358. DU isn't, Certain individual posters might be disrespectful

or make broadbrush smears. I'll concede that, but "DU," no.

When you make a generalization about DU like that, it has a sort of sham outrage/"War on Christmas"-y feel to me.

[LearnedHand]

360. Just one question for the OP:

When they die, what do you PERSONALLY believe will happen to DUers who (a) are atheists, (b) are some non-xtian religion, or (c) are non-religious? I'm not inviting you to quote scripture; I just want to know in your own words what you believe will happen.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

362. DU Isn't. But A Troublesome Handful Of DU Posters Are. But They Do Not Represent DU As A Whole.

Unfortunately, some of the most biased or ignorant posters here are also the ones who tend to talk and complain the loudest. And yes, there are some that hold blatant bigotry towards christianity and some towards any sign of religion. It sickens me as well to see it. But they are small in number when it comes down to it and not representative of our entire community.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

368. ...

[Evoman]

366. No....it's just not PRO-CHRISTIAN, which seems to bother a lot of people.

I guess when your used to having your weak-ass religion pandered to all fucking day, its downright shocking to come to a place where christianity is treated like any other idea (you know..criticized and put under a magnifying glass).

We can "bash" any damn thing on DU, and we often do. I've seen threads bashing immigrants, bashing affirmative action, bashing racism, bashing gay pride, bashing hate crime legislation, etc. And I'm fine with it. Argue your position, and if you get trounced, maybe you will learn something.

I will "bash" christianity all I fucking want, because in my opinion, it deserves to be bashed. Religion may be a sacred cow in our society, but here it is treated equally with other ideas.....good or bad.

[jgraz]

370. Oh no! I've found a place where my ridiculous beliefs aren't constantly reinforced!!

Hep me JEEZUS, hep me!!!

[Bryn]

371. I am still waiting for Age of Reason

I believe that all stories written by many many people are mixed with mythology and history in the bible. Many of them are words of wisdom and others insane. There is no proof of historical Jesus. Story of virgin birth came from Eygptian mythology based on Isis and Horus. Romans probably invented story of Jesus and Christianity to control the world by looking at Jewish belief and their waiting for a Messiah so they brought up "Jesus". Even if there was a very kind and wise and spiritual man named Jesus who existed, most of stories were probably invented and his sayings were probably 20% genuine and 80% made up. I feel very comfortable being a non religious person yet consider myself a spiritual person. My mother is a fundie and she has displayed mental illness so many times and uses bible as a weapon and is a scary woman. She's obessesed with end of time and gets excited if there's anything really bad happening around the world. It's disgusting and a huge turn off to me. I consider bible same as reading Shakespeare and others likewise. Bible isn't infallible and did not fall from Heaven.

[westerebus]

372. Can we just build another coliseum? n/t

[toddaa]

373. DU is not just anti Christian, we are actively recruiting for the Antichrist.

From our membership the Great Beast will arise!!! I'm putting my money on BMUS. Where they hell did she go?

[scholarsOrAcademics]

379. is Bush Christian?

if so which denomination? Southern Baptist? Should one therefore be against Southern Baptists?
There is little serious attention that can be given to what those who call themselves Christian have to say, other than their threats.

[Dorian Gray]

387. He's Methodist...

though his strain of Methodism is far less liberal than the majority of Methodists I know out there.

[and-justice-for-all]

380. No, DU is not anti-christian..

If it was, then there would not be any place on DU for you. There are sub-forums for christian discussion and religiosity as well as R/T forum. DU obviously is very accomodating to just about everyone as far as I can tell.

But, there are also Anti-Theist about too. I for one, am one of them and do not have any kind words for religion as a whole.

[JerseygirlCT]

381. No, it's not. When you're here a while longer, you'll notice

it's largely a small number of people with big axes to grind. I suppose foaming at the mouth about religion in general, and Christianity specifically helps them vent.

In any case, I've found it much better to simply ignore those few and continue enjoying the rest of the people here, who are on the whole, quite interesting.

There are good discussions here in R/T with both atheists and Christians participating. I encourage you to jump in!

[Name removed]

383. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Az]

388. Its a matter of some Christians being anti anything not Christian

Unfortunately the intolerant Christians tend to be more vocal than the tolerant ones. So people come to associate intolerance with Christianity. Its a perfectly natural human tendency to associate such things in this way. It is not the individuals job to get to know every facet of a particular religion. The current overwhelming image of Christianity is of its hatreds more than its loves.

Its not our job to make Christianity look good. Some of us know and get that there are tons of tolerant and loving Christians out there. Heck I am typing this on the PC of one right now. But where are their voices? Where are their voices decrying the hatred promoted by the conservative ones in the name of their Lord? Why is there not a vocal and readily apparent struggle for the heart and soul of Christianity going on in America? Instead it seems like the tolerant Christians have decided to hide themselves away and let the hate filled ones have their say.

Christianity has been dragged into politics by the right. And this is what you get. Intolerance being promoted by religion and people reacting to it. You can't force people to change their opinion that they have developed by experience. The only way to change such opinion is by new experience. That is you have to show them that there are other types of Christians out there. Otherwise the experience they have will only be the hatred expressed by the religious right.

[theredpen]

392. The intolerant Christians don't post here. The intolerant ANTI-Christians do

That's the problem.

[Az]

394. Or you could say the victims of intolerant Christians post here

Oppressed people tend to be pissed people. Its more an art form of figuring out who to be pissed at than one would imagine. History shows us that when a people are oppressed they tend to react to anything associated with the oppressors and lose trust as well. So yeah. A lot of people that have issues with Christianity post here. Its not like they woke up this morning and decided to be angry at a random religion. People get angry for reasons.

[theredpen]

395. Anger is not an entitlement to be an asshole

I know people who have been abused by fundamentalist Christians are angry. You think they abuse non-believers? Try being an apostate!

Another group that has a right to be angry is African-Americans, but black DUer's do not (as a rule) come here and rail against white DUer's for being a bunch of racist rednecks. White DUer's no more spend their weekends donning white hoods and burning crosses than do Christian DUers spend their weekends picketing abortion clinics.

The Christians on DU are not here to be punching bags; we are not serving as a proxy for the religious right. We are here for the same reasons other people are here — to support the party that best serves the interests of peace and social justice. We are not here so that other people can belittle, degrade and harass us because they have emotional problems.

[Az]

398. Check your history

There were several paths taken by African Americans in their fight for equality (a fight that continues to this day). Not all took the pacifist route. There were and continue to be many organizations that take the view that all whites are the enemy.

I am not offering this as an excuse. I am merely pointing out the dynamics involved. If you want to know why some people are angry you need to understand that they have cause for it. Simply treating them as an intolerant individual and not delving deeper into the issue is a sure way to completely continue the problem rather than solving it.

The fact is there are going to be people pissed at religion for how they have been treated by it and how they see it affecting society around us. And they do have cause for this. The trick is getting people to see that not all religion is out to get them.

[theredpen]

399. Any suggestions?

The trick is getting people to see that not all religion is out to get them.

This seems like a really hard trick. Any advice would be welcome.

[Az]

401. I've been trying to find a path for some time now

I know its not easy. Real blood has been shed in other similar struggles. People who get hurt can carry long term wounds that simply will not heal. I don't think believers should just sit there and take it from those who have been hurt by believers. But by the same token I understand the anger from the nonbelievers. Viewed through the right lens the history of religion is quite frightening and combined with personal experience at the hands of fanatics it can combine to set one's mind against any sort of religious ardor. I can only suggest that you give empathy to those who are angry but distance yourselves from them and work with those who seem to be able to see the difference between tolerant beliefs and intolerant beliefs. In other words boost and encourage those who take a positive path and simply try to understand what the negative path takers are going through.

[JerseygirlCT]

422. Completely agree, Az

Though that doesn't mean one has to stick around and participate in something abusive in the hopes of bringing about understanding.

Hopefully there are enough people willing and able to communicate on the issue without too much ugliness.

[NMMNG]

396. Untrue

Intolerant people on both sides post here.

[theredpen]

397. Examples?

Every time someone makes this request, I ask for examples and every time I get nothing. NOTHING.

I can come up with examples of people unfairly bashing Christianity — http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=132289&mesg_id=132470">right here in this thread — but where are the Christians supposedly telling non-Christians that they are going to hell and all that other stuff?

Where?!

[NMMNG]

405. So many believers claim there's no hostility towards non-believers here,

Yet many of the non-believers openly admit that it goes both ways. I wonder why that is?

Atheists are mentally challenged.
Atheists are selfish people who don't give to charities or help the needy.
Ditto.
Atheists are cowardly and lazy
Atheists have no objective code of morality and just make up their own rules as they go.
There is no objective morality without God. Therefore atheists cannot be truly moral for they don't believe in God.


And so on, and so on, and so on.

[theredpen]

409. Twisting words to the point of breaking...

Claim: Atheists are mentally challenged.
Money Quote: We are helping the poor here. Also the mentally challenged. :)
Actual Meaning: We are distributing information to people who need it and don't seem to understand some pretty obvious things.
Comment: Notice the ":)" — this person is kidding. Jeebus, get a freakin' sense of humor already.

Claim: Atheists are selfish people who don't give to charities or help the needy.
Money Quote: What atheist organization has started a soup kitchen, an education program for poor people, etc, etc?
Actual Meaning: What atheist organization has started a soup kitchen, an education program for poor people, etc, etc?
Comment: This is a question, not a statement. Does it have an answer, or are fair questions now considered "bashing"?

Claim: Ditto
Money Quote: and where are the great atheist social service organizations?????????????????
Actual Meaning: Where are the great atheist social service organizations?
Comment: Ditto

Claim: Atheists are cowardly and lazy
Money Quote: So far the only thing stopping some of them from doing that is laziness. Or cowardice.
Actual Meaning: Atheists don't go door-to-door trashing religion because they are lazy or cowardly.
Comment: Not a nice thing to say, I guess, but I'd side with the poster. The Christian-bashers in DU come here to beat up on believers because they'd be banned or beaten up anywhere else. One of the bashers admitted, explicitly (in a now-deleted post) that he was happy to be abusive because the moderators would clean up the mess and it was OK as long as he wasn't so consistently abusive that he was tombstoned. I'd call that lazy and cowardly. It's like anti-fur protesters who picket rich ladies for wearing animal skins — it's much safer than picketing motorcycle gangs for doing the same thing.

Claim: Atheists have no objective code of morality and just make up their own rules as they go.
Money Quote: I think it is because atheists, having no belief in any objective morality, must make up their own moral rules as they go along.
Actual Meaning: Some people might find it more difficult to trust someone whose moral code is not explicitly and clearly defined.
Comment: The poster allows that atheists may be completely moral, but what "moral" means in the context of atheism (and outside a framework like capital-H Secular Humanism) is a question that atheists do, in fact, have to answer as they "go along" and is not something they do in lock step. This is a fact. If you consider facts to be bashing, then you're missing a career working for Bill O'Reilly.

Claim: There is no objective morality without God. Therefore atheists cannot be truly moral for they don't believe in God.
Money Quote: The reason that they deny it is that they know that once they admit that there is such a thing as objective morality, the conclusion that God exists is inescapable.
Actual Meaning: There is no objective morality without God, therefore atheists deny objective morality because it would force them to admit that there is a God.
Comment: Wow, the same person making the same argument! Couldn't find another example, huh? There are counter-arguments to this claim. Apparently, you don't know them, so you erect a straw man.

[varkam]

407. It's a two-way street, theredpen. eom

[skater314159]

390. This site has bigots too. N/T

[smoogatz]

400. Gandhi said it for me:

"Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ."