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Occam Bandage
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:45 PM Original message |
So let me get this straight here. |
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leftstreet
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:47 PM Response to Original message |
1. I can't find the link to that Scottish lady singing that song |
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Patsy Stone
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:57 PM Response to Reply #1 |
11. ... |
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Richardo
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:47 AM Response to Reply #1 |
69. !! |
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debunkthelies
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Fri Apr-17-09 03:09 PM Response to Reply #1 |
102. Go To |
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classof56
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Fri Apr-17-09 03:58 PM Response to Reply #102 |
110. Just listened to her recording of "Cry Me a River". Wowser! |
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geek tragedy
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:48 PM Response to Original message |
2. Summary: |
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Nicholas D Wolfwood
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:27 PM Response to Reply #2 |
90. You're on a roll this week. |
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MADem
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:48 PM Response to Original message |
3. Yep. Boggles the mind. No matter what he does, he's going to catch shit for it. NT |
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Richd506
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:33 PM Response to Reply #3 |
94. It seems like there's an anti Obama cult as well as a pro Obama cult |
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MADem
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:56 PM Response to Reply #94 |
100. The former are a bit more obnoxious than the latter, though. |
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mmonk
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:49 PM Response to Original message |
4. So if someone commits a crime in your neighborhood, if the police |
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Pirate Smile
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:52 PM Response to Reply #4 |
7. You are missing a critical piece. It would be something the police told them was legal and then |
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Occam Bandage
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:57 PM Response to Reply #7 |
12. That is absolutely correct. I cannot imagine anyone approving of a situation in which |
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Pirate Smile
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:04 AM Response to Reply #12 |
16. That doesn't even deal with the practical realities that the police commissioner would need people |
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truedelphi
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:48 AM Response to Reply #12 |
30. The problem for me is that I don't care about pro-transperency as much as |
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Occam Bandage
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:52 AM Response to Reply #30 |
32. Indeed torture is wrong, and nobody has ever doubted or denied that, at any level. |
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truedelphi
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:11 AM Response to Reply #32 |
36. You say, further down, |
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Occam Bandage
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:26 AM Response to Reply #36 |
41. Who said we couldn't go after Bush and Cheney? |
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Mojorabbit
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:53 AM Response to Reply #36 |
52. Every child in school |
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truedelphi
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:55 PM Response to Reply #52 |
98. Plus for some of these people, they could always change jobs. After all, |
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ArcticFox
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Fri Apr-17-09 03:38 PM Response to Reply #98 |
107. Seconded |
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truedelphi
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Fri Apr-17-09 03:52 PM Response to Reply #107 |
109. Wow! That is an excellent point. You say: |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 09:53 PM Response to Reply #12 |
134. Except you are ignorning the fact that torture has always been illegal --- |
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MadBadger
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:13 PM Response to Reply #134 |
139. True, but what constitutes torture was different in the Bush administration |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:38 PM Response to Reply #139 |
154. No . . they attempted to corrupt the Geneva Accords, the Constitution and Military laws .. . |
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proud2BlibKansan
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:48 PM Response to Reply #12 |
155. So it's okay to torture children? |
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defendandprotect
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Sat Apr-18-09 12:41 AM Response to Reply #12 |
158. So you're saying these are things you'd do . . . ? |
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silverojo
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:22 AM Response to Reply #7 |
21. Who cares if they were directed to do it? |
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Occam Bandage
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:29 AM Response to Reply #21 |
23. I might well say "no sane person would join the CIA." That's meaningless. |
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Nicholas D Wolfwood
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:32 PM Response to Reply #21 |
93. Forget that you would lose your job. |
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kas125
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:07 AM Response to Reply #7 |
45. That critical piece being slamming people's heads against |
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jberryhill
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:45 AM Response to Reply #45 |
66. The Law doesn't do "right and wrong" or "personal judgments" |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 09:57 PM Response to Reply #45 |
136. Exactly . . . and it's exactly what the military wants . . . robots surrendering conscience...!!! |
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tblue37
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Fri Apr-17-09 09:58 PM Response to Reply #45 |
137. kas125, you wrote: |
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jberryhill
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:43 AM Response to Reply #7 |
64. Almost, but not quite |
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moodforaday
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Fri Apr-17-09 11:47 AM Response to Reply #7 |
81. Still not a defense |
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Occam Bandage
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:53 PM Response to Reply #4 |
8. Except we're not talking about the people who are at fault here. |
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kas125
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:12 AM Response to Reply #8 |
47. Do you really expect people to believe that they didn't KNOW |
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jberryhill
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:47 AM Response to Reply #47 |
68. The laws of the civilized people of the United States |
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high density
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:57 AM Response to Reply #47 |
74. You need to read the memos |
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Raineyb
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Sun Apr-19-09 07:59 PM Response to Reply #74 |
180. The law is not those memos |
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katty
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Fri Apr-17-09 04:29 PM Response to Reply #47 |
112. exactly, unless one is so,so far gone-a person does know |
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HughMoran
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:54 PM Response to Reply #4 |
9. In the fantasy world of silly hypothetical arguments, yes |
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mkultra
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Fri Apr-17-09 06:58 PM Response to Reply #4 |
128. its called ex post facto you fucking moron |
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kid a
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:50 PM Response to Original message |
5. you got it! |
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rockymountaindem
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:51 PM Response to Original message |
6. I watched an amazing Frontline video about the Office of Legal Council |
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Shanti Mama
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:40 AM Response to Reply #6 |
63. Exactly. Give him time. He's aiming high. |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:04 PM Response to Reply #6 |
138. Certainly everyone at the CIA wasn't born yesterday and knows TORTURE is illegal . . . |
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empyreanisles
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:55 PM Response to Original message |
10. K&R, my friend |
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Clio the Leo
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:58 PM Response to Original message |
13. Yay! more kicks for the folks who get it!!!! NT |
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katandmoon
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Thu Apr-16-09 11:59 PM Response to Original message |
14. There is no way these CIA torturers didn't KNOW it was torture. They did it ANYWAY. NO legal |
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Occam Bandage
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:04 AM Response to Reply #14 |
17. They knew it was waterboarding. |
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rhett o rick
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:22 PM Response to Reply #17 |
88. I disagree completely. These torturers knew what amounts to torture without some |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:14 PM Response to Reply #88 |
140. In fact, didn't Judge Jay Bybee confirm that it could produce "imminent death" ... but go ahead, |
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cali
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:01 AM Response to Original message |
15. excellent, excellent piece. k&fuckin'r |
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Kurt_and_Hunter
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:07 AM Response to Original message |
18. Speaking for myself, I am pleased by the document release |
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jberryhill
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:45 AM Response to Reply #18 |
42. "mbracing the Nuremberg defense on its face as an ethical construct" |
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grantcart
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:10 AM Response to Original message |
19. Well they are angry about that and the fact that with in the first 100 days nobody is in jail yet. |
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Muttocracy
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:21 AM Response to Original message |
20. Ron Reagan had an interesting theory on the radio this afternoon |
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Occam Bandage
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:25 AM Response to Reply #20 |
22. Even setting aside testimony against higher-ranking officials, |
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Muttocracy
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:30 AM Response to Reply #22 |
24. I don't know - I take this as going far beyond a "business practice" |
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Occam Bandage
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:39 AM Response to Reply #24 |
26. Torture isn't a black-and-white thing. |
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Muttocracy
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:48 AM Response to Reply #26 |
29. I imagine in modern combat (Iraq, Afghanistan) the military isn't black and white either |
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Kurt_and_Hunter
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:01 AM Response to Reply #26 |
34. I don't know why bright lights is obviously not torture |
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Occam Bandage
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:24 AM Response to Reply #34 |
39. *shrug* Then replace "bright lights" with "a slap to the face" in my previous paragraph. |
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onenote
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Fri Apr-17-09 06:22 AM Response to Reply #34 |
57. You just proved the OP's point. |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:16 PM Response to Reply #20 |
141. Right... I was listening . .. wasn't he suggesting that IMMUNITY could succeed in bringing out . . |
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tkmorris
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:30 AM Response to Original message |
25. I have a bit more respect for the CIA than that |
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Muttocracy
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:49 AM Response to Reply #25 |
31. well said |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:18 PM Response to Reply #25 |
142. Precisely . . . who would think anyone in CIA was that unknowing, that naive . . . ???? |
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Political Heretic
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:43 AM Response to Original message |
27. No, not quite. |
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Occam Bandage
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:46 AM Response to Reply #27 |
28. That's meaningless fluff. |
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Political Heretic
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Fri Apr-17-09 12:55 AM Response to Reply #28 |
33. Well I hope so. |
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whatchamacallit
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Mon Apr-20-09 09:48 AM Response to Reply #28 |
183. What? |
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amborin
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:10 AM Response to Original message |
35. why don't folks do a little legal research on torture indictments and trials? |
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Muttocracy
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:25 AM Response to Reply #35 |
40. is there a difference within vs among countries? |
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dorkulon
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:28 PM Response to Reply #35 |
91. Nothing is enough to compensate, so do nothing? |
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scheming daemons
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:14 AM Response to Original message |
37. Occam... BRILLIANT summary... you hit the nail right on the f-ing head |
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cliffordu
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:14 AM Response to Original message |
38. And as far as the planners of the torture, he lets a little more evidence out |
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Egnever
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:59 AM Response to Original message |
43. Passion seems to win out over logic here every time lately |
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Jersey Noir
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:07 AM Response to Original message |
44. I for one welcome the change! |
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Egnever
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:19 AM Response to Reply #44 |
49. Welcome to DU! |
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Jersey Noir
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Fri Apr-17-09 08:59 AM Response to Reply #49 |
61. Thanks for the welcome |
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EFerrari
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:08 AM Response to Original message |
46. Are you f#cking kidding me? |
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Egnever
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:17 AM Response to Reply #46 |
48. I am starting to think you have lost your marbles |
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EFerrari
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:20 AM Response to Reply #48 |
50. Torture is illegal. That isn't my high or low horse. |
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Egnever
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:36 AM Response to Reply #50 |
51. sorry its not that clear cut |
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Spazito
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:07 AM Response to Reply #51 |
62. It has been rather fascinating to read some of the posts... |
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EFerrari
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:51 PM Response to Reply #51 |
96. You do know, right, that those memos were produced four months |
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mix
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:43 PM Response to Reply #51 |
122. KUBARK |
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jberryhill
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:50 AM Response to Reply #50 |
72. SO IS ENTRAPMENT! |
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PeaceNikki
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Fri Apr-17-09 11:08 AM Response to Reply #72 |
76. Thank you. |
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EFerrari
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:53 PM Response to Reply #72 |
97. The means do matter. What neither you nor I considered yesterday |
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jberryhill
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Fri Apr-17-09 08:38 PM Response to Reply #97 |
131. What I've mentioned repeatedly |
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EFerrari
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Sat Apr-18-09 02:12 PM Response to Reply #131 |
165. How does one torture in good faith? n/t |
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jberryhill
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Sat Apr-18-09 09:23 PM Response to Reply #165 |
171. Once more with feeling |
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cali
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:48 AM Response to Reply #46 |
54. you're the one that needs a therapist |
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Hell Hath No Fury
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:50 AM Response to Reply #46 |
71. I feel like I have walked through the looking glass here -- |
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noiretextatique
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:18 PM Response to Reply #71 |
86. it's predictable, like the freepers who supported bush, inc |
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PeaceNikki
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:22 PM Response to Reply #86 |
87. Absolute horseshit. |
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jberryhill
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Sat Apr-18-09 09:26 PM Response to Reply #87 |
172. You silly liberal - we are talking about criminals here - don't go on about defenses |
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EFerrari
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Fri Apr-17-09 03:35 PM Response to Reply #71 |
106. Creepy, isn't it? Obama did well to release those memos. |
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biopowertoday
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:20 PM Response to Reply #106 |
118. Obama cut them off at the pass by providing lawyers for their |
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EFerrari
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Fri Apr-17-09 06:06 PM Response to Reply #118 |
125. That will blow up on his administration. This isn't going away. n/t |
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biopowertoday
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Sat Apr-18-09 02:04 PM Response to Reply #125 |
164. I do not think this issue is going away either as much |
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mix
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:40 PM Response to Reply #71 |
120. yes it is, astonishing... |
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Egnever
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Sat Apr-18-09 09:37 PM Response to Reply #71 |
175. No all because the law matters |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:20 PM Response to Reply #46 |
143. Who? |
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HamdenRice
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:39 AM Response to Original message |
53. You're correct. Most people don't understand the effect of a "legal opinion" |
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mix
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:52 PM Response to Reply #53 |
124. Do you understand that legal justification was given |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:21 PM Response to Reply #124 |
144. Great point . . . and also very like the wiretapping having begun 7 months before 9/11--!!! |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:22 PM Response to Reply #53 |
145. Do you think anyone in Germany thought that the Nuremberg Laws were legal? |
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Kdillard
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:52 AM Response to Original message |
55. Nail on head. K and rec. |
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jewishlibrl
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:54 AM Response to Original message |
56. CAT: "An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification" |
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jberryhill
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Fri Apr-17-09 06:59 AM Response to Reply #56 |
60. That's not what's going on here, but thanks for playing |
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alcibiades_mystery
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:46 AM Response to Reply #56 |
67. They are not relying on an order...that's why they went to the Justice Department |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:24 PM Response to Reply #56 |
146. That's also the lesson of the Nurember Trials . . . which |
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jefferson_dem
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Fri Apr-17-09 06:24 AM Response to Original message |
58. Why do you hate 'Merca... |
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Jennicut
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Fri Apr-17-09 06:54 AM Response to Original message |
59. Of course the lower level CIA agents were torturing but it was declared legal by the Justice Dept. |
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EFerrari
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:10 PM Response to Reply #59 |
114. There was no legal cover at all for months. |
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alcibiades_mystery
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:44 AM Response to Original message |
65. They were supposed to *know*, through basic human understanding, |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:25 PM Response to Reply #65 |
147. No . . . the military is supposed to be trained in our nation's laws -- |
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Richardo
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:48 AM Response to Original message |
70. Occam Bandage, you always cease to amaze me |
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shagsak
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:54 AM Response to Original message |
73. It's like having mom tell you to have a cookie |
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Bjorn Against
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:42 PM Response to Reply #73 |
121. So are you comparing torture to eating a cookie? If so that is a horrible analogy. |
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shagsak
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Sat Apr-18-09 11:25 AM Response to Reply #121 |
159. really? |
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Bjorn Against
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Sat Apr-18-09 04:49 PM Response to Reply #159 |
167. Taking an order to eat a cookie does not exactly rise to the level of taking an order to torture. |
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shagsak
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Sat Apr-18-09 05:45 PM Response to Reply #167 |
168. If everyone who is taking orders questions those orders |
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Bjorn Against
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Sat Apr-18-09 06:45 PM Response to Reply #168 |
170. First you need to get your facts straight. The people being tortured NEVER attacked the US. |
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jberryhill
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Sat Apr-18-09 09:31 PM Response to Reply #168 |
173. The point is - the orders WERE questioned.... |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:27 PM Response to Reply #73 |
148. It's a no brainer re cookies . . . it's ignoring reality re torture . . . |
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shagsak
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Sat Apr-18-09 11:45 AM Response to Reply #148 |
160. not at all |
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defendandprotect
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Sat Apr-18-09 12:16 PM Response to Reply #160 |
162. Oh, we're "burning" them if we prosecute them? I didn't know that .. . |
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shagsak
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Sat Apr-18-09 12:54 PM Response to Reply #162 |
163. lol |
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defendandprotect
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Sat Apr-18-09 06:38 PM Response to Reply #163 |
169. I thought "burn" was an intended exaggeration . . . |
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dolo amber
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Fri Apr-17-09 11:06 AM Response to Original message |
75. If I could recommend this thread 1000 times I would |
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Peacetrain
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Fri Apr-17-09 11:09 AM Response to Original message |
77. Excellent points |
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appal_jack
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Fri Apr-17-09 11:21 AM Response to Original message |
78. K&R! |
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EstimatedProphet
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Fri Apr-17-09 11:24 AM Response to Original message |
79. Very well put |
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sam kane
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Fri Apr-17-09 11:24 AM Response to Original message |
80. War Crimes. Don't care if their Mommy said it was okay. nt. |
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ItNerd4life
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:01 PM Response to Original message |
82. Excellent points and well said! nt |
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Phx_Dem
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Fri Apr-17-09 01:54 PM Response to Original message |
83. Simply awesome. |
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mwei924
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:00 PM Response to Original message |
84. Honestly, this place will always find something to bitch about... |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:29 PM Response to Reply #84 |
149. Yeah . . . and TORTURE is such a meaningless, pitiful little thing to get upset about---!!! |
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PeaceNikki
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:07 PM Response to Original message |
85. This thread needs to be kicked. |
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shawn703
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:26 PM Response to Original message |
89. What is the definition of torture? |
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winyanstaz
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:29 PM Response to Original message |
92. well fine,...let the little guys go that thought they were obeying the laws.. |
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islandgirl808
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:38 PM Response to Original message |
95. the stanford prison experiment |
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Hissyspit
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Fri Apr-17-09 02:55 PM Response to Original message |
99. Apparently a Violation of Geneva Conventions? |
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truedelphi
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Fri Apr-17-09 03:27 PM Response to Reply #99 |
104. I'm gonna quote Jonathan Turley as my last words for today on this |
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Blue_Roses
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Fri Apr-17-09 03:02 PM Response to Original message |
101. You have to be one of the most |
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Political Tiger
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Fri Apr-17-09 04:13 PM Response to Reply #101 |
111. Indeed! n/t |
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EFerrari
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:12 PM Response to Reply #101 |
115. What seems reasonable to you about rationalizing torture? |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:30 PM Response to Reply #101 |
150. Because when our corrupt government tortures, we intend to bury it--??? |
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democrank
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Fri Apr-17-09 03:17 PM Response to Original message |
103. I honestly never thought I`d live to see the day |
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Bjorn Against
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:48 PM Response to Reply #103 |
123. Well said, it is a sad day for DU to see people here defending torture. |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:31 PM Response to Reply #103 |
151. Do you remember the "excuses" when we first found out about the torture --- ???? |
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CreekDog
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Fri Apr-17-09 03:28 PM Response to Original message |
105. Half of DU is only angry at the other half of DU that isn't as angry |
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Buzz Clik
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Fri Apr-17-09 09:11 PM Response to Reply #105 |
133. Now that pisses me off. |
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Mme. Defarge
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Fri Apr-17-09 03:47 PM Response to Original message |
108. A Big K&R for |
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Adelante
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Fri Apr-17-09 04:54 PM Response to Original message |
113. Well said |
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Moochy
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:14 PM Response to Original message |
116. Hyperbole is your speciality |
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Soylent Brice
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:15 PM Response to Original message |
117. yeah, but who do you think will be kicked off American Idol next? |
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mix
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Fri Apr-17-09 05:36 PM Response to Original message |
119. There is no excuse for not knowing that those techniques were torture. |
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ZeitGuy
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Fri Apr-17-09 06:21 PM Response to Original message |
126. K&R, and here's why... |
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mkultra
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Fri Apr-17-09 06:54 PM Response to Original message |
127. You got it, and your a lockstepper for having such reasoned support of Obama. |
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ms liberty
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Fri Apr-17-09 06:59 PM Response to Original message |
129. Very well said. My compliments and thanks! K&R n/t |
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uberblonde
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Fri Apr-17-09 08:18 PM Response to Original message |
130. I wish I could find comfort in this utter horse hockey. |
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whatchamacallit
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Mon Apr-20-09 09:52 AM Response to Reply #130 |
184. Word |
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Buzz Clik
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Fri Apr-17-09 09:10 PM Response to Original message |
132. O. Bandage -- you are dead to me. Well, you were dead to me a year ago. |
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Vattel
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Fri Apr-17-09 09:53 PM Response to Original message |
135. I hate to say it, |
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jeanpalmer
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Fri Apr-17-09 11:24 PM Response to Reply #135 |
157. Could they be tried under some other statute? |
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defendandprotect
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:35 PM Response to Original message |
152. Sadly we've also seen Congress dragging its feet on TORTURE for years!!! |
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Truth2Tell
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:38 PM Response to Original message |
153. Occam Bandage was just following orders. nt |
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jeanpalmer
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Fri Apr-17-09 10:54 PM Response to Original message |
156. Even a sadistic CIA thug |
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jberryhill
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Sat Apr-18-09 09:34 PM Response to Reply #156 |
174. "Any belief that a memo from DOJ could authorize assault is unreasonable" |
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Honeycombe8
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Sat Apr-18-09 11:50 AM Response to Original message |
161. Excellent post. nt |
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BlooInBloo
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Sat Apr-18-09 02:21 PM Response to Original message |
166. Why would anybody expect otherwise of DUers? |
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TankLV
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Sat Apr-18-09 10:51 PM Response to Original message |
176. "Just Following Orders" is NO EXCUSE since the NAZI WAR CRIMES TRIALS |
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PeaceNikki
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Sat Apr-18-09 10:58 PM Response to Reply #176 |
177. Except that they weren't "just following orders" |
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conscious evolution
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Sun Apr-19-09 08:59 AM Response to Reply #177 |
178. The DOJ clarifications |
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PeaceNikki
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Sun Apr-19-09 09:16 AM Response to Reply #178 |
179. Those principles relate to international law - not US law. |
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conscious evolution
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Mon Apr-20-09 05:53 AM Response to Reply #179 |
181. What US law? |
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jewishlibrl
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Mon Apr-20-09 07:48 AM Response to Original message |
182. Rahm Emanuel's statements change everything |
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trudyco
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Mon Apr-20-09 12:35 PM Response to Reply #182 |
186. Yep. |
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whatchamacallit
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Mon Apr-20-09 10:01 AM Response to Original message |
185. I only know one thing |
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