With friends like us, who's got time to fight the enemy? Barack is getting fucked before he starts!

[FrenchieCat]

While Democrats are busy keeping Obama's feet to the fire, the Media and the Right Wing have him on a skewer BBQing him.

How can we win this way?

I say that he can't.

For those who want to rationalize, go ahead.....Since that's what it is all about.

Just don't ask how in the fuck did we lose? :shrug:

[SteppingRazor]

1. Agreed. Obama's feet SHOULD be held to the fire, but...

the time to do that is Nov. 5, 2008 and onward.

[Cha]

89. Exactly! Obama got this far

because most of us like his views and we trust him.

I don't sweat the small anymore..we need to keep our eyes on the prize.

[The Doctor.]

93. Yep. 200% support until November, then have at it.

[anonymous171]

2. The problem with having a big tent. nt

[bvar22]

104. There are some people who don't belong in the Democratic tent,

and I will work to keep them OUT.


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

3. The man cannot win for losing. I can't say that I'm not disappointed in some of his recent

choices, but by and large, he is getting a raw deal. Why do we place such higher standards on Obama and don't have the same standards for other candidates?

No matter what he does, we will find a way to criticize him. That criticism is warranted in some cases and we should hold his feet to the fire, but the nitpicking it beyond outrageous.

We have DUers on this board who don't know the facts about the public financing issue, and even when it is explained over and over again, ad nauseum, they refuse to listen.

What can you do? :shrug:

[FrenchieCat]

19. Because it takes less work dogging out your own?

When I try to engage DUers into writing letters to the media on shit that the media distorts about OBama, my threads sink quickly...without any but a couple of takers.

Now DUers are folks that spend a great deal of their time typing stuff up here at DU...but somehow can't muster up the strength to fight the media. Guess they just like singing to the choir in the safety of the comfortable DU.

Now, when someone disagrees with Obama and challenges him and has a negative thread title, everyone responds! he threads stays up and up......

Same with Anti McCain threads I have started; they sink. Anti Obama threads? Well, what's there not to like?

Like I said, we screw our own. Don't need no help. While the media spins negatively on Barack day in, day out......excusing McCain for every damn thing.....we continue to attack Obama, and act like we don't really give a shit about McCain.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

29. If Obama loses, we will be partly responsible because we allow

the M$M to peddle the lies. Our attacks should be targeted squarely at McSame and his very long list of flip-flopping. The Repukes should not be allowed the pass we give them!!

We should be writing the media Talking Heads and holding their feet to the fire on McSame who has many, many problems, much more so than Obama.

These polls are bullshit, plain and simple. No one discusses McSame's inherent problems in the polls; we simply follow the lead of the media and repeat the same damn falsehoods that they do.

If we really want to win this election, we need to focus on McSame and his problems. Yes, criticize Obama when he makes mistakes, but don't dwell on them. McSame and the Repukes are the real enemies. We ought to be uniting. It's the one thing that I've always been jealous of when it comes to Repukes. They know how to unite. We Dems just tear one another apart and that's why we continue to lose elections while KKKarl Rove sits back and laughs at us.

It's very disheartening.

[butterfly77]

22. I hate to say this but...

some of it is because Hillary is entitled and some of it is because he is black. I watch some of these people who are suppose to be Democrats and they are doing there damndest to cause him problems. If he loses I will watch and laugh at all of the crying they will be doing when Bushco and the Cons begin showing the arrogance they are hiding for the moment.


When they really finish up what they have been doing while a lot of these people have been a sleep. The problem is that some people really hate the fact that someone black would be leading this country that they would rather die and suffer because of it,a lot of these people really think that their money will protect them from this madness. There is so much evidence out there showing what they have done to this country. I just don't know what it will take..

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

37. The attacks on Michelle says it all...

I had a very frank conversation today with a Latino colleague of mine. We spoke about why the Repukes are attacking Michelle and he was honest with me. He told me that many white people and Latinos suffer psychological discomfort seeing professional, smart and attractive blacks doing well for themselves. Contrary to all the Repuke talk about lifting oneself up from the bootstraps, self-reliance and hard work, that doesn't apply when it comes to two strikingly attractive black people who worked from nothing and achieved success. Mainstream society is not used to the image of a black couple that has done well for themselves, and they aren't comfortable with the fact that they are madly in love. He respects her, she's NOT a "baby's mama," he's not shiftless, and they have two beautiful children for whom they would lay down their lives for.

He honestly told me that regardless of how well The Obamas do for themselves, they will never be accepted fully by mainstream society.

Coded language, such as "radical" and "elitist," are used to describe "uppity" blacks who have forgotten their place.

When I witnessed many Democrats expressing these same views of The Obamas during the primaries, I was deeply saddened. I had always assumed that the Democratic party was more tolerating and accepting and that the Repukes were the racists. I was so wrong. All of that latent racism rose to the surface during the primaries and even on this very board. The sense of entitlement was pervasive in that some people could not deal with the fact that an accomplished black man who *is* qualified would run against the Clintons. It was as if the votes didn't have to be earned; they belonged to the Clintons and that somehow the election was stolen from them.

[butterfly77]

43. And a most blacks know this...

They love to use the little words "race card" when blacks complain about injustice, they aren't fooling anyone.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

46. Yes, because Obama played the race card first...

:rolleyes:

[butterfly77]

52. Ok, Hillirate...

Obama just has to be who he is and you will play the race card and try to lay it on the person you played it on..

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

66. Exactly! Here's how it works...

1. Candidate A plays the race card against Candidate B.
2. Candidate B complains about the race card.
3. Candidate A expresses outrage because Candidate B is outraged by the outrageous race card.
4. Candidate B and his supporters express outrage at Candidate A's outrage. Things turn nasty.
5. Candidate A then claims that it was really Candidate B who played the race card.
6. Candidate A's supporters agree that it was really Candidate B who played the race card, the gender card, and the class card.
7. Candidate A loses the primary and blames it on the race and gender card. Candidate A's supporters follow suit.

[Jazzgirl]

85. Sorry.....

Bullshit

[jasmine621]

63. Listen, even Feingold has a problem with Obama's not opting for public funding.

If we can't criticize our own without being demonized, there is little hope of holding anyone's feet to the fire. If you don't like our stating our feelings about Obama's flip-flop just think what you would be saying if this had been Hillary. It's not just the public campaign financing, it's AIPAC, the eeking of changes in his stance on NAFTA, his touting HIS passing of welfare-reform/welfare-to work, his throwing his church and former pastor under the bus after saying he could not do that, his change in position on universal health care...little by little change is taking place but not the kind of change I had hoped for.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

67. I prefer extra pepperoni on my pizza. n/t

[Eurobabe]

118. responded to wrong person - delete

[FrenchieCat]

70. That's all that you have ever done, is criticize OBama. In fact, you are an expert.

The only change you hoped for is not gonna happen.....i.e., Hillary.

[Jazzgirl]

86. There is nothing wrong with criticizing our own.

As long as it is deserved. In this case no.

[truedelphi]

4. I am not aware that we who are friends are skewering him...

Not sure what you are referring to. Be glad if you added some info to your remarks.

[democrattotheend]

35. Check out DailyKos

You'll see what the OP is talking about. And I agree with you,btw.

[truedelphi]

48. I rarely deal with Daily Kos. They never wanted any sort of problem

With establishing their popularity, so they sold out all of us who were trying to make sense of the stolen election scenario.

I'l check it out to see hwat is meant here.

Occasionally if a DU'er emails me abt a good post there I will visit. But I was too devastated to think that they abandoned the people in the trenches back in Dec 2005. For the sake of Kos' ability to get on talk shows etc.

[JuniperLea]

49. Seriously...

dKos is the last place I'll go for information. They've sold out completely.

[griffi94]

5. why didn't he just vote no

instead of supporting it knowing that it would damage his standing with his supporters and then trying to sugar coat it
by saying he'll try to get the most odious parts of it removed.

[BornBlue]

15. Know the issues

He has not voted yet, it passed in the house, he is a member of the Senate where it has not gone to vote yet!

[MrCoffee]

16. It's called pandering.

[FrenchieCat]

20. The senate hasn't voted yet. He is a Senator.

Did you know this?

[griffi94]

27. yes

i also know he stated he supports the compromise that every other democrat who supported it is getting raked for.
will he still support it if he can't get the immunity clause taken out.

[BklnDem75]

117. Then maybe you should learn to read...

The immunity part is the problem, not the suggestions in the compromise. He's not for the immunity, so what's your problem?

[Connie_Corleone]

42. The Senate hasn't voted yet.

[OwnedByFerrets]

54. Call his office and

tell THEM how you feel. Tell him to vote NO and tell him to be the leader we want him to be and stop this madness. He must do more than vote no, he must get his senatorial comrades to vote no also. Tell him to step up and make us proud.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

69. Now, THIS is constructive. I agree with this tactic.

Instead of bashing the Democratic nominee, why not simply place a call to him or his campaign and urge him to vote NO when the bill comes before the Senate. But to sit here and bitch and complain isn't constructive.

[OwnedByFerrets]

98. Thank you LS!!

[blondeatlast]

65. Probably because the Senate hasn't voted on it yet. nt

[Adelante]

88. He couldn't vote before the vote

Getting retroactive immunity removed is not sugar coating. It's the most serious issue. If anybody can do it, I think Obama will. His standing is not damaged with me.

[niyad]

6. asking questions about why the presumptive nominee is doing something stupid, like

supporting the FISA bill is not acceptable?

you know, there is something very disturbing about this attitude that we are never to question anything about our presumptive nominee and his actions and votes. that sort of lock-step belief has no place in a democracy..

[griffi94]

9. you've noticed that too?

[niyad]

21. for quite some time now.

[villager]

14. exactly. How dare we question his cave-in rhetoric on FISA!

"Just shut up and take it" is supposed to be the new politics?

[niyad]

24. it may be, but I am not shutting up.

[FrenchieCat]

34. So what have you done in reference to the bashing that he is receiving in the media

for his public finance stance? Anything?

[FrenchieCat]

25. So keep slapping his face, while the media distorts and fucks him in the ass......

and see what happens.

GO ahead.

He is not supporting the FISA bill as is, and he stated so.

But do like the media and go for the shorthand version of things. that is what is expected of Americans these days anyway.

[villager]

30. He is supporting it as is, with the exception of working to take out Telcom immunity

If he can do that much -- and really tries to do it next week -- I'll be amazed.

And eat about a third of my words.

But in supporting the rest of this bill, he's still for legalizing spying on Americans.

And for some of us, FrenchieCat, that's just not okay.

[27inCali]

97. There's a lot of fucked up Bushit

that Obama can only fix as president.

the problem with the radical view point is it always wants EXACTLY what it wants RIGHT NOW, instead of cultivating a realistic perception of how the machinery of democracy works: slowly by design.

Get him elected, then hold his feet to the fire.

What ever problems you have, really, it's not worth risking 4 more years.

He has to choose his battles carefully now, but as president will have infinitely more leverage to set this shit right, and if he hesitates we can remind him of who he owes.

impatience is not a virtue when your impatience forces you to choose the wrong battles.

[Runcible Spoon]

32. I'm sorry, but if he votes for it, he supports it, no matter how much sugar coating there is...

about "removing"the retroactivity later. That said, Obama is missing a HUGE chance to galvinize voters on this issue. It wouldn't take much for him so say: "AMERICA! I voted NO on FISA because I care about your civil rights and I will fight til the end to protect them!" There isn't much political risk in voting NO; the people who know about FISA and still support it are NOT going to be voting Obama...

[FrenchieCat]

40. Then don't vote for OBama......

At this point, if that is the most important issue, then so be it.

Personally I wrote a letter to Barack in reference to this issue.

Then I wrote 8 letters to the media in reference to the Public Financing issue.

What have you done to make a difference, exactly?

[JuniperLea]

53. Way to garner support for Obama...

Seriously, sometimes you'd be better off just shutting the fuck up. I don't see how this is helping Obama at all.

:eyes:

[FrenchieCat]

72. I'm not here at DU to "sell" Barack.

The primaries are over.

If the poster wants to vote McCain or Nader or Barr or whatever, there is little I can do to stop him/her.

One minute I am given the Allow Free Speech litany, next minute I'm told to STFU. :shrug:

[Runcible Spoon]

75. don't even presume to think that I support any other candidate thatn Barack.

how do you even expect me to answer you seriously when you are using clever language to insinuate I somehow don't want him to win. I'm done on this pointless thread.

[Runcible Spoon]

73. I don't need to wave my progressive action credentials around to make a valid point.

:eyes:

[JuniperLea]

51. fucks him in the ass?

rape jokes are ok now too?


:puke:

[sufrommich]

92. If Hillary would have won the primary instead of Obama,

you would have posted 10 negative threads about her support of FISA by now.I'm disappointed he's supporting this bill no matter which part he has problems with.You seem to think any criticism of Obama,if when justified,is exhibiting disloyalty,it's not,he's our candidate and DU is a forum for discussing the ins and outs of the elections and government policies. You take criticism of Obama way too personally and attack anyone who dares question some of his decisions.

[FrenchieCat]

102. You don't know what I will do in the future....so premising your post

upon my future action is pretty much a bankrupt point; something I would expect from the media.....not from a poster here at DU. :eyes:

As far as what I take personally, I do reject someone telling me what I would be doing "if".

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

45. Yes, that *is* certainly an acceptable criticism, and he should be questioned about that.

I'm specifically referring to the nitpicking: why he wears a flag pin, that kind of stuff. If they knew the story, it was a Vietnam Vet who gave him that pin on Memorial Day and asked him to wear it. That's why he's wearing it. But the media Talking Heads go on and on about the lapel pin, ignoring the story.

I'm also talking about the public financing issue. I notice that there are many DUer's who refuse to acknowledge the background surrounding his decision to opt-out. Instead, they blindly accept the media's talking point that Obama is a flip-flopper when he never flip-flopped on the issue.

Here is a list of things that I think he ought to be criticized for:

1. Not going toe to toe with the Repukes on the windfall tax. He needs to hit them HARDER on this.
2. Not being explicit about his tax plans. Dems lose voters on this issue because they get the "tax and spend liberal" moniker thrown at them.
3. Hitting back hard on the Habeas Corpus (sp?) ruling.
4. Agreeing to Town Hall Meetings. I know that he said that he'd do 5 of them, but he needs to explain why he's not taking McSame's entire challenge. He should be stating unequivocally that Town Hall meetings have been rigged by Repukes in the past and he wants them moderated.
5. He needs to speak on the issue of nuclear power and outline his views more clearly.

[JuniperLea]

50. Well said!

Very disturbing indeed. What the OP is suggesting is that we model ourselves after the GOP... :puke:


Free speech is only as good as free thinking.

[FrenchieCat]

57. Free speech runs two ways, Last I checked......

But when the media is hammering Obama on one issue, to pile in...although there has yet to be a senate vote, and Obama was clear that he will support the Dodd amendment, I think that the breathless drama on the FISA issue, when Obama states clearly that he will work to remove that provision from the bill is hot air, ImO.

Meanwhile the media is doing a job on Obama. What have you done in reference to that? Anything, or just thrown your hands up in the air in reference to the media, and how we can make a difference?

[JuniperLea]

59. Get off your fucking high horse!

I called Obama's office this morning when I first heard about this shit! I have loads of media contacts that I deal with on the job, and they have all heard from me today too! You aren't the only person here who takes shit seriously, and you should lighten the fuck up before you become so fucking counter productive that you actually cost Obama votes because you are turning so many fucking people off! Some of us prefer to just do the job instead of beating others about the face and head with our good fucking deeds!

Jesus! Get a fucking grip!

[FrenchieCat]

62. Well, I'm just a weirdo.......

you know.

[JuniperLea]

64. Me too...

Sorry, FC... :hug:

But the freaking primaries are over, and instead of seeing DUers crap all over each other, it would be nice to see a little cajoling and prodding, instead of slamming and ass kicking.

We can't afford to open the divide back up.

I think you and I both need to take a chill pill.

[FrenchieCat]

68. Not a problem.

I'm just tired of the media distorting Obama's actions all over the tube today...while we jump on him here, although he hasn't voted for anything, and has stated that he would vote and work for others to vote for the Dodd amendment.

[MaraJade]

108. It seems that the

DIVIDE never has closed, especially with all of the DUers continuing to kick Hillary around and bashing
anyone who asks honest questions about the stuff that Obama is doing now that he is the nominee.

I wish that people would simply STOP talking about Hillary. She's gone. There is no need to continue to
bash and blame her for anything. And I also wish that people would stop beating up those of us who question
Obama's actions right now. I don't know about anyone else, but I am now thoroughly confused because some of
the stuff he's doing doesn't seem to match the promises he made us during the primaries.

[tekisui]

7. The heavy hitters need to put the M$M in their place in regards to the

"Public Financing".

Someone needs to be out there backing up Obama on the fact that his campaign is publicly funded, without PACs or Lobbyists. And, point out that McDubya is the one facing lawsuits due to his fuggin the system.

As far as FISA goes, the Senate may be behind him, and are putting him out as the head of the party to stop the retroactive immunity. I hope that is the case.

[Adelante]

95. I hope so, too

This from Reid may be a signal or a threat.

On Friday, the House passed an update to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act that called for a federal district court to review the legal justifications for granting immunity to the telecoms that participated in the wiretapping program.

Separating the bill would give political cover to Democratic presidential nominee Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), who could vote for many of the updates to the 1978 FISA law, but could still vote against telecom immunity, an issue that has become a key flashpoint on the left.

It remains to be seen if GOP senators would allow Reid to unpack the delicate compromise that congressional leaders worked for months to broker.

Although Reid said "we will have to see" when asked how he was going to vote on the measure, earlier this week, Reid indicated he likely would not support the new FISA compromise, as he still had concerns about the immunity issue.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0608/Reid_to_push_for_separate_vote_on_telecom_immunity.html

[GarbagemanLB]

8. It is our duty to keep his feet to the fire and hold him accountable. Sorry if that doesn't sit well

with you.

This is an important vote (the FISA bill). He needs to know that we are watching.

[FrenchieCat]

26. It is your duty to lose the election, obviously.

The media leaves out McCain's own action on public Financing. Did you write any letters to counter the media skewing the public financing issue? If not, why not...since you are so interested in keeping Obama's feet to the fire.

It would be one thing if the media was balanced, but it ain't. So McCain gets away with everything, while you've got Obama's nuts tied in a bow. How lovely.

Yeah, I don't like that. Sorry.

[JuniperLea]

55. Your anger is really counterproductive!

[FrenchieCat]

60. Not anger....more like disgust.

fucking Obama every which way is not an encouraging development. I understand about FISA, and writing to the Obama campaign and to Obama via his senate website is how I handled that issue.

In reference to the media, I've written 8 letters thus far, in reference to them calling him a Flip Flopper who's word cannot be trusted.


I think that my feelings have been turned into measurable action. That's the best that I can do.

Skewering Obama is not the answer. He hasn't voted yet. and he states that he will vote for the Dodd Amendment which removes the telecom immunity clause.

[MrCoffee]

10. You're right. We should look the other way when a sitting Senator screws us.

How silly of us to expect something from our elected leaders.

[FrenchieCat]

28. Obama has yet to vote. The Senate has not voted.

Write to Obama with your opinion.

But my question is, have you written to anyone about the Flip Flopper issue agains Obama all over the MSM today? Do you expect anything from the media, or that isn't part of your sphere?

[Tim4319]

11. I agree!

Please, I'm watching CNN and they are beating to death that Barack Obama flip flopped on campaign finance. They are worried about "trust issues", when John McCain continuously get away with saying he did not state quotes that he made at the RNC primaries.

[FrenchieCat]

33. While Democrats here jump on him of the FISA Bill yet to be voted on in the senate.

Instead of writing Obama with an opinion....

and then pivoting to blast the media with this Campaign finance "character Issue" bullshit.

But see, there is no pivot. Those attacking Obama here on one thing are not going to be writing letters on the issue that Obama is taking a beating for today.

Cause it is easier to type stuff at DU, then actually writing a letter objecting to the Media's bias.

[Imagevision]

12. Are there a lot of repugs in DU. today? seems like it...

[islandmkl]

13. we seem to have some 'good dems' that think Barack should be able to get Congress in line NOW...

to me, it seems like he has chosen the path like a trailblazer....

he will go the direction he thinks he should...why bother trying to turn EACH and EVERY jackass around and point them in the direction??

at some point, the dems in congress will see the same light we see...which does not mean they will do anything differently...

after all, there is a lot of $$$ that has been 'pre-spent' for 'activities' favorable to the lobbyists...and those lobbyists expect to get what they paid for...

and the lobbyists want to keep paying and the congresspeople want to keep receiving...

[Crazy Dave]

17. The media needs a close race for their ratings

Any candidate who looks like they'll walk away with an election will definitely get bumped back down by the media to keep the race close. Nobody would even care or watch if one was ahead of the other by 30% or more and growing and most people on the losing side wouldn't even bother going to the polls on election day with odds like that against them.

And of course, corporate America owns the media and they have a heavy hand in this too but the media can't survive without ad revenue and they can't just sell airtime to their shareholders.

[grantcart]

18. Fortunately most of the people trying to do so are heard by a very small group

and have very little impact on the real world and the average Joe, many of whom for example had no realization that Russert was the son of the devil single handidly responsible for the war in Iraq.

We should have only one thing in our sights right now and that is November 4th.

Everything else is vanity.

[uponit7771]

23. MLK was hard on LBJ because he was in a position to see the injustice. It doesn't matter how "good"

...the person is they deserve the oversight.

Right now that FISA stuff is a no go, there's no net gain from it and sounds like he's listening to Washington insiders instead of the people.

[sandnsea]

31. Frenchie I can't do it again

I went through this in 2004 with Kerry. I'll fight when I can, but most of these asshats are going on ignore this time. I'm going to work on making money so I can give it to the campaign and other groups who are helping. Good luck.

[ProSense]

36. People are either complaining or rejoicing.

That's why I posted the thread Obama's FISA statement with that title.

Is anyone paying attention to anything?

Some people don't seem to get the difference between holding Obama accountable and making ill-timed statements. Others are grossly misjudging the MSM's ability to drown out a candidate's message and completely distort reality.

Take the public financing issue: Feingold really disappointed me. McCain-Feingold has been destroyed by McCain. He hasn't said a word. Why now that Obama is making a move that by all measures is a smart one?

The public isn't in tune to the issue itself, but the media will repeat the point that Obama makes and breaks pledges in every article and news segment they can. Who cares?

When the Swift Liars started to attack Kerry. His campaign was serious about responding, but look at how many Democrats either don't know that he did (weren't paying attention), doubted the truth (relied on the media) and continue to speak about it in ways that aren't supported by the facts.

"Bitter" and Wright, Democrats need to brace for the worst. Obama isn't president yet.

This isn't the primary. There is only one outcome: Obama or McCain will be president.








edited typo.

[FrenchieCat]

38. Well, like I said, if DUers were as "worked" up by taking action against the media

Then pivoting to dog out Obama would be more than acceptable....but as it is no one is doing shit but "holding Barack's feet to the fire".

[Radical Activist]

39. Republicans unite behind their canddiates while the left splinters.

Its the same thing in every election and a major reason why they win more elections than they should. Left leaning groups sit on the sidelines talking about their issues instead of helping liberals get elected.

[FrenchieCat]

41. That's what is so fucking sad. That folks here feel like they don't make a difference

when it comes to combatting our real opposition, the Media and the GOP.

However folks have a very easy time chiming in on how Obama should do this and that.

It stinks like shit.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

47. Exactly! That's what's so appalling. Yes, criticize him, but get the guy fucking elected!!

All Dems do is complain. Let's get out there and work!!

[Steely_Dan]

44. Good Luck...n/t

[Imagevision]

56. Well, you have the option to vote for McCain... (no?)

[Youphemism]

58. A true friend tells you when you have dog poop on your face...

There's a big difference between criticizing Obama for his position on FISA and not supporting him.

Obama did say that he wanted to get rid of telecom immunity, but he knows that won't happen. His support of the bill with that as a caveat is disingenuous. I understand that's hard for people who want to like *everything* he does.

But maybe for that exact reason, his stance on FISA will be helpful to his campaign.

Obama is wrong to support FISA. We know this, just as we know that a junior senator is not going to be able to force telecom immunity into the bill. *That's* what we should try not to rationalize.

Guess what? We're not going to like *everything* Obama does. We're not going to be able to defend everything Obama does. Why? Because he's a politician, as much as supporters want to overlook that fact. If he weren't a politician, he wouldn't have gotten this far, let alone get elected.

There seem to be a number of Obama supporters who want to look at him as the answer to all their hopes, dreams, and prayers. He isn't. He doesn't need to be all that to be the best President ever. And he doesn't need to be the best President ever to be a hell of a lot better than Bush/McCain.

I don't believe people who try to unilaterally support every move Obama makes are doing him any favors. It makes them appear to the right just like Dittoheads appear to us. Instead, when he gets something wrong like this, why not keep it in perspective, but acknowledge it for what it is?

When someone says, "Obama capitulated to Bush on FISA," I would just offer the response, "Yeah, he got that one wrong. 100 more mistakes like that one and he might start pulling into McCain territory."

I don't think it's right to try to justify every single thing your candidate does. It waters down the argument for the many times he's right.

Everyone makes mistakes. Obama is human. He's wrong about this. I think what makes it stand out, and what makes people react so strongly is that he's right so much of the time that it takes us by surprise.

Let's acknowledge that Obama can make mistakes, and use those occasions to celebrate how rare they are, rather than trying to whitewash them.

[FrenchieCat]

61. But what about the media that is skewering him now for his refusal of

public financing.......is there anything to be done? Cause I've done what I could. Have those who are taking the time to criticize him on the FISA bill also done what they could? Or is skewering the candidate more important than doing multi-tasking, i.e., also writing letters to the media in reference to what is currently on the television. :shrug:

[Youphemism]

71. In case you haven't noticed...

...You're one of my favorite posters on this board. I also think you've done a lot to help Obama. My post was a reply to yours, but it wasn't at all "aimed" at you -- or anyone else, for that matter.

I just think it's also helpful to remind people that Obama is both human and a politician. I think we can support him better by keeping that in mind.

As far as letters go, just keep up what you're doing -- aim us at the worst offenders. I see people watching your posts and joining in all the time.

One more thought: Writing the media might be a double-edged sword, since they like to get viewers through controversy. Maybe, especially in the worst cases, it would be good to go after the sponsors of the shows that regularly misrepresent Obama's positions, and cc that show with your letter directed at its sponsor. That approach might have more impact.

Just keep pointing out the worst ones. I'll help. But I'll also take the time to point out (without bashing him, or providing fodder for the enemy) when I think Obama is wrong. I think it's healthy to do that constructively, because we're his teammates. He needs to know when he's heading into foul territory.

[FrenchieCat]

77. I don't have a problem with what you have stated......

Although I disagree that our power via letters to both the media and progressive blogs and reporters to put out our counter message in order to monitor the media is ineffective.

As far as FISA, folks are acting like Obama has voted, when he hasn't. I think it more productive for those who are enraged by his noted stance to contact him.

I just don't care for those who do nothing but post here their discontent.....yet do nothing else in terms of making a difference.

[Youphemism]

81. I didn't call them ineffective... I gave a suggestion to make them more effective...

I agree completely about the whiners. But I think there's some value in discussion that helps them realize Obama is not God-sent to resolve all of their problems. The response you see here is surprise because Obama has been right so often. He's become a victim of his own success. Once these folks come down to Earth and stop expecting Obama to load rolls of toilet paper the same way they prefer, they'll be the better for it. Realists make better supporters than groupies.

Regarding FISA, Obama has stated his position, knowing that he doesn't have the leverage to remove the telecom immunity. I think it's splitting hairs to point out he hasn't voted. But you're right, and I sure would love to eat those words of mine. You can expect a full, humble, dirt-eating apology along with a "FrenchieCat was right yet again!" post if they manage to get that immunity crap yanked from the bill -- even if Bush vetoes it. I will do it both happily and graciously, without being reminded, and I'll link it to this thread.

[Catherina]

82. Boy are you good. I bow my head in awe n/t

[Runcible Spoon]

78. exactly how I feel. Thank you for articulating it so well

:hug:

[Solon]

74. We can either hold the man accountable for his actions or not...

Holding his feet to the fire is exactly what needs to be done, whether the timing is good or not is up to him, not us, simply because he's the one who pulled this stupid bullshit.

The guy is a centrist politician, so the fact that he pulled this at all is no surprise to me, and I haven't even commented on it until now. The only thing we know for sure is that he's not as bad as McCain, and because of lack of choice in this country, he's the only person left to vote for. However, this doesn't mean we should keep silent when he pulls stupid bullshit like supporting the FISA bill. Frankly, he deserves the criticism, and just remember this, he only shines in comparison to Bush/McCain, not on his own, so to make him shine on his own, to make him actually be worth voting for, we need to hold his feet to the fire, even when they start to blister, and never let up.

[Catherina]

76. Take a break for a while if it's affecting you this much

I think you're getting worked up over nothing.

Obama's not a porcelain doll who can't handle criticism. He handles it just fine.

Would you be happier if people shut up and just turned their back on him before walking away? That's what you're asking for, lockstep obeisance and blind trust. You're not going to find it on the Left.

Obama fucked up with this one. There's nothing wrong with people saying so. Better we say so now and he listen to us and respond accordingly than lose our votes and go the way of other politicians.

Obama is the first candidate in a long time that people have believed in. If you ask people to bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything's A-ok, we increase our risk of losing because people want transparency and truth now with no pandering. You be who you are and take your lumps. Obama can handle it.

[FrenchieCat]

79. Maybe I'm pissed because the threads below sunk.....

while the media cook Obama's goose!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6390387

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6386412

[Catherina]

80. Well I just kicked and recommended them and others will too

As soon as I get home, I'll do it. Don't be pissed. It will be ok Frenchie :hug:

Obama's going to win this thing but he needs to be careful not to alienate all the young and independent idealists working our butts off for him. People aren't in a playful, forgiving mood and Obama's been responsive in the past. He'll be fine. Love you my sister.

[grantcart]

83. I agree and if you agree with the OP you might agree with this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6391733

[Cha]

109. Big Picture..

gotta have it.

[Jazzgirl]

84. Frenchie, I guess the main issue is we can't agree

Let me edit this shit while I can! I don't think we'll agree with everything and it isn't necessary. I hope they fix the FISA bill up too and I think they will once President Obama is in the White House.

[Arkana]

87. It's the curse of being an informed voter--often, your chosen candidate

does things you don't agree with.

Accept that not everyone is Dennis Kucinich, folks.

[crankychatter]

90. The genteel and pure here, are taking exception to your language

to hell with them, I say

they support their candidate like old people fuck

[cloudythescribbler]

91. Absolutely! Wait until he gets elected & THEN progressives hold his (or ANYONE's) feet to the fire

[FourPieRun]

99. isn't that closing the barn doors after the horse is already out? the only thing politicians care a

about is winning. once that's done, no amount of 'holding feet to the fire' will matter to him/her.

[Catherina]

100. Welcome to DU. That's my take too. n/t

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

96. Edit: Good riddance to bad rubbish. nt

[RNdaSilva]

101. Refer to...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/NanceGreggs

for a boost.

[Olney Blue]

103. I'm worried too, FrenchieCat. Failure is not an option.

[AZBlue]

105. I don't know...I'm baffled by it.

Do people want him to win or not?

[Solon]

106. The question is whether we want his victory to be ours as well...

Obama is a politician, a rather typical one at that, as such we need to keep our eye on the ball, first step, defeat McCain, second step, pull Obama to the left. If we succeed on the first step, but fail on the second, then the people have lost. If we fail on the first step, then the people have lost in the first place. But we can also multi-task, so we need to keep up the pressure on Obama, while working to make sure McCain is defeated.

[FrenchieCat]

107. So does the 2nd step come before the 1st step.....

cause I'm seeing that here and on other blogs today.

[Solon]

110. They don't have to happen chronologically...

I'm willing to concede that Obama, in a week's time, may do the right thing, and if so, more power to him, but if he fucks up, then he deserves whatever criticism I'll level against him. No one is exempt, and accountability should never take a backseat for anything. If we don't hold him, or anyone else, accountable for their actions, who will?

The biggest problem is that there is never a right "time" to hold a politician accountable, if we can't do it before this election, then we can't do it before the next midterms either, then there's re-election, then the second round of midterms, etc. Now is the right time to hold his feet to the fire, he's the one who determines the timing of it, after all. He could have kept his mouth shut, or made a briefer, less ambiguous statement, if he considered it necessary.

[AZBlue]

112. It can't.

Because the second step is relative. Who's to say that he should move a bit more left, right or to the middle? That's up to each individual to act and speak up - but once he's in the White House. Otherwise, that point may be moot.

Right now those individual issues must take second place to the most important one: a Democratic White House and a Democratic Congress in the 2008 elections.

I know...I'm "preaching to the choir" as they say...

[AZBlue]

111. Sometimes you have to focus on one prize only.

And understand that to win, you may have to take a step back every now and then. Lose the battle, win the war. Right now I'm solely focused on winning the White House.

I have faith in Obama and I know he will do what is right. That's not the kool aid talking - I don't like kool aid. I've listened to hours of speeches, read pages of books and articles, gone online and seen what he has had to say as well as what his critics have to say, read transcripts of interviews and listened to his comments on votes and issues. Basically I've looked into who he is and what he stands for and that tells me that I can trust and believe in him.

No one will agree with everything he says and does - to expect that is naive. But, in the end, we will have our liberty and our country back.

[Solon]

113. The biggest difference between us is that I do not trust Obama...

and I believe putting faith in any one is foolhardy. He is not a God, for crying out loud, he's a mortal, and will make mistakes, whether purposefully or not. If you aren't willing to hold him accountable for those mistakes, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[AZBlue]

114. I'm totally willing to hold him accountable.

I don't view him as a God - far from it. There are several issues I don't agree with him on already.

And, you're right, the different between us is my faith in him. I do believe in others, when they have given me reason to - it's not easy, but I feel it's necessary in life. We can agree to disagree on that.

However, I will not hold him accountable right now at the risk of losing the White House. That is a line I won't cross. There's way too much at stake for that.

[Solon]

116. The problem is WHEN will be the right time to hold him accountable?

If not before this election, what about before the next mid-terms, or his reelection, or the midterms after that. Using that argument just means that you can never criticize or hold a politician accountable, ever. The biggest problem with the argument you chose is that it will be extrapolated to all these elections as well, accountability is not possible in this environment. Its now or never.

[villager]

119. That's a great point. *We* aren't required to *worship* our candidates...

n/t

[Rosa Luxemburg]

115. He needs to to carve out a path and we need to help him

I think he is actually doing well. I think Congress is the problem it gets bogged down by so much unnecessary legislation. He needs to suggest things that will make this country stronger and more likable even if it means turning things on their head.

[eridani]

120. Yes, we can do that after the election, and I fully expect to n/t