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kaygore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:05 AM Original message |
Why aren't Florida and Michigan Democrats going after the real villains in this mess? |
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still_one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:06 AM Response to Original message |
1. Because most people will not accept responsibility for their actions /nt |
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kaygore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:19 AM Response to Reply #1 |
7. See, this isn't helpful |
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still_one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:51 AM Response to Reply #7 |
15. I mostly agree with you about the voters, but NOT the Democratic politicians |
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kaygore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:01 AM Response to Reply #15 |
22. But the pay off was verified voting which is critical in Florida |
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still_one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:13 AM Response to Reply #22 |
30. and what has the Democrats in Congress done since 2000 and 2004 |
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KSinTX (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:43 AM Response to Reply #22 |
44. Pls explain how voting against the bill would have derailed verification |
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PassingFair (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 01:38 PM Response to Reply #22 |
64. There was no "pay-off" here in Michigan. |
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ElsewheresDaughter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 08:13 PM Response to Reply #22 |
71. verified voting is only as good as the machines that count the votes. which is owned by a Republican |
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dsc (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:07 AM Response to Original message |
2. I am sick of Florida Democrats being thrown under the bus |
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kaygore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:14 AM Response to Reply #2 |
5. Look at the larger picture: That this is having the effect that it was intended |
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dsc (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:35 AM Response to Reply #5 |
13. at the very least those legislators were owed an honest depiction of what the penalty would be |
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still_one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:53 AM Response to Reply #13 |
16. They were given that. In fact this is the first time Michagan has pulled this stunt |
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dsc (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:56 AM Response to Reply #16 |
19. sanction doesn't mean full removal of delegates |
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still_one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:00 AM Response to Reply #19 |
21. No, the stated penalty is a least half. Here is another thread |
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dsc (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:06 AM Response to Reply #21 |
26. sorry at least half isn't good enough |
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still_one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:15 AM Response to Reply #26 |
33. Perhaps they should not have violated the rules in the first place, especially Michigan /nt |
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mkultra (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:46 PM Response to Reply #26 |
82. the fact that they would be penalized was crystal clear. |
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mkultra (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:50 PM Response to Reply #26 |
84. heres a video of Geller openly mocking the DNC threat |
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KSinTX (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:02 AM Response to Reply #19 |
47. Set our way back machine to May 2007 |
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dsc (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 12:44 PM Response to Reply #47 |
57. that presumes delegates |
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KSinTX (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 01:04 PM Response to Reply #57 |
62. At the state level |
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mkultra (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:45 PM Response to Reply #13 |
81. the actually rules state the penalty |
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SanchoPanza (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:25 PM Response to Reply #2 |
77. Red Herring cooked in Crocodile Tears |
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Iceburg (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:08 AM Response to Original message |
3. If the real villains are the state legislatures, why did Obama/Dean punish the voters?/nt |
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DogPoundPup (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:11 AM Response to Reply #3 |
4. Please, please, please... |
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kaygore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:24 AM Response to Reply #3 |
11. I can see why the voters may feel this way |
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KSinTX (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:04 AM Response to Reply #3 |
48. They punished the state party. The voters voted these people in |
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Tippy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 08:58 PM Response to Reply #48 |
75. And who elected these Democrats? You got it the Florida voters..... |
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SanchoPanza (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:26 PM Response to Reply #3 |
78. For electing inept party leaders? |
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hulka38 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:14 AM Response to Original message |
6. The GOP is patting the Florida Republicans on the back for that gambit no doubt. |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:22 AM Response to Reply #6 |
9. yep |
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still_one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:54 AM Response to Reply #6 |
17. They Florida Democrats do understand what happened |
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Sancho (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:40 AM Response to Reply #6 |
43. That is correct. |
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ElsewheresDaughter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 08:15 PM Response to Reply #6 |
73. indeed |
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mkultra (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:51 PM Response to Reply #6 |
85. and the FL dems as well |
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Swamp Rat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:22 AM Response to Original message |
8. We need a remedy - FL and MI must be seated. |
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kaygore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:25 AM Response to Reply #8 |
12. I agree--my heart goes out to our fellow Democrats in those states |
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PassingFair (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 01:43 PM Response to Reply #12 |
66. Don't cry for me, Florida! |
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RUMMYisFROSTED (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:16 AM Response to Reply #8 |
35. They will. |
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KSinTX (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:11 AM Response to Reply #8 |
49. Both states will be seated no doubts there. nt |
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Tippy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:05 PM Response to Reply #8 |
76. I disagree....by changing the rules in order for them to be seated |
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CTLawGuy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:23 AM Response to Original message |
10. well said |
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Skink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:35 AM Response to Original message |
14. I bet now that Obama has the same recognition as Clinton Florida and |
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still_one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:56 AM Response to Original message |
18. and here is another view of the situation |
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MonkeyFunk (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:58 AM Response to Original message |
20. Because they can't fix the problem |
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still_one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:02 AM Response to Reply #20 |
24. This isn't the first time it happened. Michigan tried to play this game before |
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MonkeyFunk (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:12 AM Response to Reply #24 |
29. How does that change anything I wrote? |
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still_one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:13 AM Response to Reply #29 |
31. It doesn't, and they will /nt |
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elocs (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:14 AM Response to Reply #24 |
32. So many seem to want to conveniently forget about that.. |
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still_one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:17 AM Response to Reply #32 |
36. It can be argued that there are times when civil disobedience is necessary |
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mkultra (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:51 PM Response to Reply #20 |
86. but they shouldnt |
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Auntie Bush (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:01 AM Response to Original message |
23. So who helped fracture the party? |
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kaygore (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:11 AM Response to Reply #23 |
28. Both sides have been needlessly ugly to each other--just was the Republicans wanted |
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nichomachus (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:02 AM Response to Original message |
25. The "real villains" |
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Johnny__Motown (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:08 AM Response to Original message |
27. The real villains are Hillary's people who tried to front load the process, Some in MI and FL went |
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Carolina (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:26 AM Response to Reply #27 |
37. exactly, she had 15 (out of 30) people on the RULES committee |
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progressoid (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:36 AM Response to Reply #37 |
39. So, there it is |
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Johnny__Motown (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:38 AM Response to Reply #39 |
40. I agree... conclusive evidence.. One set of rules when winning, another when losing |
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Sancho (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:38 AM Response to Reply #27 |
41. That is completely wrong... |
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kwenu (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:15 AM Response to Original message |
34. Because the Clinton folks are pushing it and going after the responsible people won't help her win. |
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Sancho (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:33 AM Response to Original message |
38. Let's at least be accurate: this is from the Florida Democratic Party in 2007 FAQ's |
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KSinTX (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:20 AM Response to Reply #38 |
50. Geller? You mean THIS Geller? THIS amendment? |
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Sancho (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 12:13 PM Response to Reply #50 |
53. I'm pasting directly from the FL Democratic website |
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KSinTX (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 12:55 PM Response to Reply #53 |
59. I'm not advocating either |
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Sancho (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 01:02 PM Response to Reply #59 |
61. They got what they wanted... |
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KSinTX (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 01:05 PM Response to Reply #61 |
63. They could not have known at that time it was meaningless. nt |
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Sancho (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 07:24 PM Response to Reply #63 |
68. They knew ahead of time that they could campaign. and they knew that they |
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OzarkDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:38 AM Response to Original message |
42. Let them have their votes counted |
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progressoid (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:52 AM Response to Reply #42 |
46. "fairness, honesty and democratic principles" |
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malik flavors (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 10:47 AM Response to Original message |
45. Charlie Crist is an asshole. I don't know why he isn't blamed for this mess he created. |
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NC_Nurse (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:21 AM Response to Original message |
51. Because only the HIllary supporters CARE and they want their way in order |
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Sancho (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 12:16 PM Response to Reply #51 |
54. I disagree very much... |
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NC_Nurse (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 12:26 PM Response to Reply #54 |
55. I'm not talking about the anger at the GOP and the Dem leaders of FL who |
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Sancho (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 12:57 PM Response to Reply #55 |
60. Maybe, but I'd expect any candidate to do what they can to win...and |
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TheModernTerrorist (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:41 AM Response to Original message |
52. nah |
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Ravy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 12:29 PM Response to Original message |
56. As a Florida voter, I will tell you why I hang up on DNC calls right now... |
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progressoid (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 01:42 PM Response to Reply #56 |
65. "There was great public support for moving the primary in my area..." |
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stillcool (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 07:52 PM Response to Reply #56 |
70. I'm sure you would do it again... |
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Ravy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 08:14 PM Response to Reply #70 |
72. I am not questioning a penalty, I am questioning the maximum penalty. nt |
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stillcool (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 09:40 PM Response to Reply #72 |
79. Why? Florida knew well in advance... |
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Ravy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:39 PM Response to Reply #79 |
80. You left one out. |
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hokies4ever (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 12:46 PM Response to Original message |
58. Dean will put the FL and MI legislators on trial on 5/31 |
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RiverStone (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 01:45 PM Response to Original message |
67. That's a very good question! |
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TexasObserver (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 07:33 PM Response to Original message |
69. This is why I favor banning from the convention anyone who supported FLA or MICH |
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Tippy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 08:54 PM Response to Original message |
74. In this case I firmly believe the Democrats in the FL legislature |
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Imagevision (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon May-26-08 11:47 PM Response to Original message |
83. Florida's Charlie Crist created the Florida problem now he's pulling a Hillary... |
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