Why do you think Obama is kicking ass with the 30 and under crowd?

[RiverStone]

One common denominator in every primary so far, is Obama's overwhelming support from the 30 and under crowd.

Why do you think that is?

I'm sure it is more than just this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKsoXHYICqU

But therein lies a clue or two. :hi:

[Proud2BAmurkin]

they have a lot of emotional energy and don't know a lot of history

[MadBadger]

11. You really dont care who you offend. Why are you like this?

[niceypoo]

23. This is exactly the truth

Many of his supporters remember nothing of politics before GW Bush. They have nothing concrete to fall back on so they run with their emotions.

[AX10]

44. True.

[Radical Activist]

80. Maybe the young have better memories.

Maybe they remember that for all of his smooth talk, Clinton wasted most of his second term on an idiotic personal mistake and didn't do much that had a lasting impact after the economy tanked in Bush's first year in office. Why would they want to make a status quo vote for another Clinton? Remember that many young people today came of age during the Lewinsky scandal so they learned to be skeptical of leaders, even good ones.

So maybe they learned to be skeptical of those who voted for the war and now claim they'll end it. Maybe they're skeptical of the two candidates who change who they are for every election. Hero worship is a hobby of the boomer generation. Young voters are showing more savvy and skepticism this go around.

[sendero]

211. One thing for sure...

... the younger generations are much more media savvy and much less easy to sway with advertising bullshit than the older generation.

And "advertising bullshit" is pretty much all campaigns are any more.

They may think that Obama's "unity" is advertising bullshit, and like it better than HRC's "you better be afraid, vote for me" Republican message.

[Sapphocrat]

279. Shows what you know.

Clinton "wasted most of his second term on an idiotic personal mistake"? Clinton?!

News flash: It was the Republican-dominated Congress, led by Newt Gingrich and his VRWC (y'know, the sort of assholes y'all want so badly to "work with") that wasted most of Clinton's second term on Monicagate.

How could you possibly have "come of age" during the Lewinsky scandal and not know that? How did you get it so twisted?

Christ, you just proved you have no grasp on recent history! What's next: It was Anita Hill's fault Clarence Thomas became a SCJ? Bob Barr fought for the right of gay people to get married? Rodney King was a guy who beat up four cops? :rofl:

And if "Hero worship is a hobby of the boomer generation," what do you call this blind adoration of Obama? I call it: blind adoration.

[Clark2008]

210. And many of Edwards' followers don't seem to know much about his

own record. What are they falling back on? Apologies?

:shrug:

[Rosa Luxemburg]

294. but these young people have to pay for the mistakes of our generation and before

these young people are saying look at the trillions of dollar debt we have to be burdened with, the wars, the dependence on oil, no future for jobs, social security, a nuclear winter?.

We will be dead and gone.

[goodgd_yall]

272. You want honesty, don't you?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[niceypoo]

24. Typical mindless Obamite smear

[Starbucks Anarchist]

27. I'm not an Obamite.

I just take offense at the assumption that people under 30, such as myself, "have lots of emotional energy and don't know history."

:eyes:

[Proud2BAmurkin]

31. It wasn't an insult like I said downthread they don't know the political history, why would they

but if they knew it better they would know the RePUKES aren't interested in working together.

If a Democrat is elected they will try to impeach him or her.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

37. How do you know they don't know political history?

I was a kid during Reagan's presidency, but I am well aware of what he did.

Age does not necessarily guarantee wisdom.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

41. If they understood the last 16 years they would know PUKES arent going to "work with us"

They're going to try to "impeach us" if we get elected.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

49. So what's your solution, wise one?

[Proud2BAmurkin]

56. To ignore any candidate who thinks we can "work with" this batch of thug clowns

if "working with" them is a strategy then it's a doomed one.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

74. Working with Republicans has to happen.

Unless we possess an overwhelming majority in both houses, some compromise will have to occur.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

84. Agree at some point but not until they've learned we're not getting f'd over in the process

Remember what happened after 9/11 when the Democrats tried to be unified like statesmen?

They rewarded us by shoving a fascist agenda down our throats by painting any opposition as "terror appeasers", and Democrats stood to become even more of a minority if they didn't go along with them until the voters caught on (in 06)

[Starbucks Anarchist]

89. Fair enough.

I don't think we should compromise too much, but a little give-and-take will be necessary.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

106. You mentioned Reagan, he used to take the issues over the heads of congress to the people

He didn't "work with" congress as much as communicate to the public and win them over to pressure congress

Whatever anyone thinks of the Clintons on a personal level the fact is if they (especially Bill) said a certain economic plan was necessary or the US should avoid or engage in a certain world conflict, the public is going to trust them on that issue. They are better regarded than the other candidates in the area of experience and depth of understanding. We need the president who can succeed in going over the heads of the opposition and win without having to give away the store.

These are hard fought issues that are going to come up. Clinton raised taxes without a single R vote. They're not going to give Obama any votes for it either, so would he back down to avoid the appearance of "not working with"?

I want a president or dual presidency they fear losing to if he takes to public, not one they can defeat. They've lost to the Clintons three times.

[niceypoo]

53. Thinking the pukes will work with dems is DELUSIONAL

Democrats keep falling into that trap. If Gore had taken office, they would have immediately started investigating every iota of his existence, same with Kerry. Republicans dont do togetherness and they dont do Kumbaya.

[Radical Activist]

135. You really don't understand Obama's message

at all.

[niceypoo]

236. The definition of insanity

Repeating the same mistake always expecting a different result.

If Obama was in office with a GOP congress, the investigations would start immediately, with an ultimate goal of impeaching him. Republicans see 'unity' and 'bipartisanship,' as weakness, and act accordingly.

Ignorance, and inexperience, is why people who haven't been around very long fall for this sort of rhetoric.

The Pelosi congress has been, 'reaching across the aisle.' How is that going by the way? They are getting their asses handed to them repeatedly.

Republicans don't do unity and they don't do togetherness.

[Jamastiene]

214. Republicans have three modes of operation:

1. "scorched earth"
This is where they go all out with the arms trades with (insert country name here), then later get all pissed over some stupid disagreement with (insert country name here) and unleash the bombs, Bibles, and bullshit, although not always necessarily in that order. They have never read the Bible, nor do they comprehend what is in it. The entire purpose of the Bible is that it is one of their props to justify the bombs and bullshit and effectively shut the American people up.

Reference points/history lesson here:
Afghanistan/Soviet conflict, Iran Contra (oh yeah, wasn't Reagan great? NOT), and what they are doing right now with the Saudis and Pakistan. Mark my words: In your lifetime, maybe even in mine, America will go to war with one of those two countries and possibly Iran and North Korea too.

2. "witch hunt"
They do not use bombs here, but PI's, lawyers, and loopholes, usurping the law every way they can to fuck a Democrat or liberal Republican over. They really go all out openly with what they are doing here too.

Reference points/history lesson here:
Read all you can about what they did to McCain in South Carolina during the '04 Primaries, Kerry in the '04 Primaries AND General Election, and the Clintons for reference points to understand this mode better.

3. "Bait and Switch"
They smile so big and toothy while they tease a gullible Democrat with an olive branch. They do not care who. Whichever Democrat is "reaching across the aisle," the Repubs play along until the Democrat signs a promissory note of quid pro quo. Then as soon as the sucker, naive enough to fall for their shit, does agree to something with them, they pull the switcheroo and shove through more bombs, Bibles, and bullshit with lawyers, loopholes, and PI's for good measure.

It's a racket. They've been doing it for years and for years older generation after older generation has tried to protect/warn/educate younger generation after younger generation to look out for this with no real success. The younger ones never listen to the older ones.

Another interesting phenomena I have been noticing lately that scares the shit out of me:
Now, it seems there is essentially no difference between what Gen-X and the Baby Boomers are trying to tell/warn/protect/educate you about. Both of our generations have learned through humiliating year after miserable year of bullshit from the Repubs, that no deal with those demons can ever end up good for us as a party or the American people or people all over the world for that matter.

On the surface, this mode of operation appears to be the least evil of their modes of operation, but in reality, it is the most evil of them all, because it seems so harmless and it affects "we the people" directly.

[rodeodance]

62. Right, Pelosi still thinks she can make nice with bush/repugs. It ain't gonna happen!

[Jamastiene]

218. Definitely.

They've screwed us time and time again. We need to start learning and playing it smart.

It is going to take Democratic Candidate and a Democratic Congress made of nails with immunity to the venomous Republican machine to save this country at this point. Only the Clintons have those qualities. They were the ones who cleaned up the last Republican mess. Honestly, that is what America needs right now before we can even begin to work on the issues that matter most to us: someone who can clean up this latest gigantic mess the BFEE/Repubs have gotten us into.

[Recursion]

246. Sorry, dude, but I'm not buying it

We've worked with them before and we have to again. Period. This "my way or the highway" crap does not need to infect our party any more than it already has.

[niceypoo]

46. Wisdom is a byproduct of experience

that is why presidents 'tend' to be over 50

[Starbucks Anarchist]

50. And that worked so well for Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and II.

[niceypoo]

58. Um, if you havent checked THOSE ARE REPUBLICANS

Ideology replaces reason with REPUBLICANS thats why we are 12 trillion in debt.

You are getting desperate now.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

69. You said, "Wisdom is a byproduct of experience."

You didn't clarify what the political affiliation involved was.

[rodeodance]

67. yup--and Obama needs lots more experice before he gains WISDON

[Proud2BAmurkin]

48. they will try to "impeach us" if we get elected AFTER they try to steal that election.

[niceypoo]

32. Ah, then it is just a mindless 'general' smear

lol, I stand corrected.

[rufus dog]

91. Don't get pulled in Starbuck Anarchist

Like the name by the way. Tully's and Peet's fan myself.

Some people are afraid of change and demonize others. It is unfortunately natural. That is what we are seeing in this cycle. Those afraid to turn it over to the next generation. They had Clinton and Bush and can't see the fatal flaws of both, only one or the other. It is now time for the next group and in 12 to 20 years time for your group. When it comes time to turn it over some of us will be more than happy to let it go. Those of us who succeed want it to be a short time and then we can go off and golf, fish, bike ride, whatever. Those insecure want to hold it, not sure the next group is ready or able. It will never change, it isn't a flaw with you or your generation, it is a flaw with those in charge.

DAMN I AM GETTING OLD! But I am 45 and want control for a short time, in 10 years I will be ready to turn things over so I can spend my time screwing around, having fun, and watching the current Obama Girl videos.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

96. 45's not old.

:toast:

Good thoughts.

[Capn Sunshine]

254. well, I guess so

you energetic emotional response with no sense of history was deleted by the mods

[jlake]

26. ....

:puke:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

28. I notice you took no offense at P2BA's ageist smear.

:eyes:

[jlake]

35. No. I did not think it was ageist. Unfortunately I agree, and I fit into that age group.

[MadBadger]

38. Well the smear is not directed towards you..its only towards Obama people.

[jlake]

43. No, any "ageist" smear would be against the age demographic.

[MadBadger]

47. P2BA was responding to why Obama gets the young vote.

[jlake]

51. Yes, but if someone calls that "ageist" and I am a part of that age group

it does not matter how I choose to vote, I am still being discriminated against.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

36. what smear. Younger voters don't know PUKES will try to impeach a Democrat for being elected.

you think they want to work together.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

45. No, I don't.

Just because Obama (who I am not 100% behind, BTW) believes so does not make it so.

Give younger people credit. I know it's impossible for you to say anything positive about Obama, but you don't have to engage in broad-brush smears either.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

68. It's not a smear, a college kid didn't watch them try to reverse an election and steal the next one

so they might believe a new kind of politics is possible. Not with this crowd.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

153. The OP was about people 30 and under.

That includes a lot of non/post-college "kids."

[rodeodance]

78. ageist??--The IP asked a binary before after age question.

[rodeodance]

75. That was RUDE

[Starbucks Anarchist]

79. Yet the assumption that under-30 people are idiots wasn't?

:eyes:

[rodeodance]

101. I did not see it that way--regardless your response was just plain rude.

[Jamastiene]

216. NOT idiots, just not aware.

If I knew you were going to ingest a bit of food that was tainted with a poison that would make you die slowly and painfully, would you rather I didn't warn you? What kind of friend would I be to you if I let you eat the poison?

We understand that Obama is not 'bad,' per se, but we also understand he is underestimating his Republican opponents. He is walking into a trap of epic humiliating proportions.

We also know you are not idiots. You just do not know what we have lived through for years and years and years with this current incarnation of the Republican Party and yes, the current incarnation of the Democratic Party as well.

The change and hope you are wishing for will not come from Obama with his current strategy. We have already seen this strategy fail miserably over and over and over again for eons.

If not for his homophobic buddies and his pro-Reagan comments, you do realize a lot more of us, Democrats, might be willing to support him. The Republicans will play nice with him until they get him where they want him, then BOOM, they will pull the rug out from under him like nothing you have ever seen before.

We old farts know these imaginary Democrat-voting-Republicans are so few and far between and we've seen this before. Time and time again, a "movement" happens and goes terribly astray and we are left to pick up the pieces. You will learn, but we'd rather you learn now and talk to us and work with us now than have to learn the hard way like we did.

Every time another generation falls for the Repubs' dirty tricks, the country goes a little further into hell in a handbasket. Our country is dying because of this shit. Every civilization eventually falls (reference Rome et al). We are trying to slow the process down for future generations. That would be you if you would try to understand what we are telling you.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

222. First of all, I'm not as young as you may think.

However, I am under 30, which is what the OP is referring to.

And I am well aware of what the Republicans have done/will do, but the condescension towards my age group on this website is disheartening.

I also find it ironic that my age group is being targeted here as one that needs to be "saved" from making mistakes, when it was the older generations who voted for Bush and the current Republicans en masse, and NOT my age group.

[Jamastiene]

225. You can bet that most of us here did not vote for the Republicans.

I can only speak for myself when I say this, but I'm sure many others will agree:
We ALL, regardless of AGE, need to remember that anytime a Republican offers us an olive branch, and we reach "across the aisle," they will yank it back, strip the leaves off, and slap us across the face with it so fast, our heads will spin. There is no new low that is too low for their kind of evil.

That is the simple, straight up, honest truth.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

227. I'm not referring to DU.

And I am well aware of the Republicans' modus operandi. I don't need age to tell me that.

[Tweed]

42. Modern politics in this country is 50 years old

You act like nothing can change because you haven't seen it happen in your lifetime. I understand where you are coming from, but in the course of human history, Democracy is hardly a blip in the radar. There are many ways to improve the current system we have. People are waking up and moving beyond the simple rah-rah political hack remarks and shallow fronts that work in a world dominated by TV and radio.

Has anybody ever read more than two sentences from Proud2BAmurkin? You are still in the mindset that the political world operates best when you lock horns and shout catch phrases and jerk names at each other. Please sir, tell me when the last time great policy came from these kind of 'discussions'. I've never seen you add anything to the political discussion here.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

63. Where the hell do you get those assumptions about me?

Just because I don't spend hours posting in GD doesn't make me or my opinions any less valid. I read and research the topics we discuss, but don't focus too much on posting.

However, when someone attacks my age group as mindless zombies, I will call them on it.

Has anybody ever read more than two sentences from Proud2BAmurkin? You are still in the mindset that the political world operates best when you lock horns and shout catch phrases and jerk names at each other.

Apparently, you've missed his daily anti-Obama flamebait that's frequently devoid of logic or facts, yet you attack me.

:eyes:

[Tweed]

191. I wasn't responding to you

I was responding to Proud2BAmurkin in the entire post.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

219. My apologies.

I got lost in the subthreads. :rofl:

[NashVegas]

262. There You Go Again

Modern politics turned 20 last year.

[MadBadger]

54. Do you think this about all the under 30 crowd supporting Hillary as well?

[rodeodance]

71. yes, that is a tendency of the young

[VotesForWomen]

199. well put. nt

[Califooyah Operative]

265. So does that include the strong support on college campuses?

He also does better with the well educated anyways.

[VotesForWomen]

268. pretty much. i know a lot more history now then i did when i was in college. nt

[Tulkas]

1. They still have Hope for a better future

Besides they don't want to continue the Bush Clinton Bush crap.

[niceypoo]

30. Obama has largely abandoned the empty, 'hope,' rhetoric

he now has replaced it with the victim card.

For all of Hillary's faults, she can definately take one on the chin. Obama has a glass jaw.

[Tulkas]

83. Bill has been shielding Hillary, she is weak. Obama will be back on message now that...

The Big Attack Dog Has Been Muzzled

[BluegrassDem]

2. I think that is something you don't hear much in the MSM

But the age divide is more an issue than race. I think people under 50 want to take back control of this country from the warring baby boomers. And Barack is someone that young people can actually relate to. I know Gore and Kerry tried to go after the young vote, but they couldn't relate like Obama can. It's a beautiful thing to see young people coming out and voting FINALLY!

[okoboji]

6. "It's a beautiful thing to see young people coming out and voting FINALLY!"

I'm amazed they can put down their cell phones long enough to stop text messaging each other to get out to vote.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

3. They think RePUKES are going to "work together" because they missed the last 16 years

[Blue_State_Elitist]

113. 100 percent agree!

[ErnestoG]

4. Because Hillary's support is largely DLC, Old Guard Dems...

and they are aging, getting tired and withdrawing from the process.

[Zynx]

5. He's from a different generation, politically speaking, than the rest of this crowd.

Giuliani, McCain, Clinton, and most of the rest just seem like so much of the past. When I supported Obama before switching to Clinton it was precisely this factor that appealed to me. He does represent a shift from the Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush years and people my age are looking to mix things up a little.

[tammywammy]

7. It's not just the under 30 crowd

But also the college educated under 30 that he's running away with.

[NJObamaWoman]

25. Yup. I'm 24 and college educated with a B.A. & Masters Degrees.

I support Obama.

[Bicoastal]

97. Word to the Wise--don't even bring up your credentials around here...

...they'll accuse you of being a spoiled rich kid with an education bought and paid for by mommy and daddy. I've been through it once already.

[NJObamaWoman]

160. I don't care really cuz my mom did pay for it. The Gov failed my family

As a single parent my mom worked hard to pay for my college education when the gov. said that she made too much money. My mom never took government assistance, never went through the court system to get child support. She worked 2-3 jobs when I was a little girl just to take us out of the struggling inner city and move us into an apt in the burbs. Even when my mom bought a house she had financial problems and we lost the house. Everything I've been through as led me to Obama. The Clintons really didn't do that much for me or mine.

[GalleryGod]

205. Wow! You achieved your degrees =faster than I ! Kudos!

Now about that Atlanta Braves avatar (ahem) :toast:

A good day to be Obama !

[goodgd_yall]

278. Don't ever be ashamed of your accomplishments

It sounds like you know how to handle it if someone gives you guff about it.

[The_Casual_Observer]

It's a sensation. Kind of like a spiderman movie or an X-Box.

or whatever the buzz is. It's fun & it's a scene.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

8. Seems more like 45 and under. He's got a lot of support with us Gen Xers too. nt

[frazzled]

9. Not just kicking ass, but getting them to the polls

And that is something unprecedented in modern political history.

I was once part of the generation that said don't trust anyone over thirty. We were opposed to the war and to the corrupt system in Washington. We were right. Perhaps it's time to resurrect that slogan. I'm well over thirty, but I respect the ability of the young to rise up every so often to push their complacent elders into moments of transformative change when it is necessary.

[RiverStone]

14. transformative is right - just ask my 18 year old!

With all do respect to my favorite *Edwards* - I am thrilled that Obama is challenging the pundits and simply shaking things up! Thinking outside the box...

My 18 year old daughter gets to vote for the first time this year, and she is VERY excited about Obama. Just imagine, other kids coming of voting age over the last decade (or longer) did not have a truly transformative type person; that is, someone cut from a very different cloth to vote for.

How damn happy I am that in my daughter's first election where she can participate, there is Obama to serve as a model for what she wants. Just the fact that she already seems to have identified with him rocks. Shit, sometimes it's hard to get her to say a peep about school classes - but she talks about Obama and frequently asks me questions about him.

Something is very right about that!!!

[paulk]

10. "I never wanted anybody more...

than I want you"

Somehow I don't think she's singing about the Presidency....

[Robeson]

12. Because anyone of 18 years of age or older can vote.

[Frances]

13. Anybody else remember

"Come clean for Gene"?

For you youngsters, Eugene McCarthy challenged President Lyndon Johnson (Dem)in the primaries because McCarthy was anti-Vietnam War. Idealistic young people cut their long hair (which their elders hated) and knocked on doors campaigning for McCarthy.

Then Bobby Kennedy entered the primaries and was killed after the CA primary.

Eventually Johnson decided not to run for re-election, fearing a loss. Johnson's VP Humphrey won the Dem nomination after a disastrous convention.

Many young people were so angry about the war and the convention that they refused to vote for Humphrey. I was super angry too, but I held my nose and voted for Humphrey. He lost to Richard Nixon.

In 1972 idealistic young people went to the Dem convention and helped nominate McGovern. McGovern was infinitely better than Nixon but Nixon won in a landslide.

I'm just saying that young Dems have gone for the idealistic, well-qualified candidate before and lost.

I do NOT want to lose this election, so if you vote for Obama in the primary and he becomes our nominee, be sure to support him every way you can in the general.

[Hippo_Tron]

17. IMO Obama is far more like Gary Hart than McCarthy or McGovern

[Frances]

29. Why do you say that?

The parallel I see between McCarthy, McGovern, and Obama is that these three were popular with the people who hated the war the country was in. Both McCarthy and McGovern promised change just as Obama is doing. All three had/have huge appeal for young people.

[MadBadger]

15. Just Listen to P2BA, I support Obama because I'm an ignorant fuck.

[tammywammy]

16. Me too

:)

Except I didn't get the memo that only blacks are allowed to vote for Obama, since I'm white.

[Kittycat]

65. I didn't either. And double whammy... I'm a 33yo Married White Female

With 2 little kids at home, and running my own business. Wow, what was I thinking? ;)

[tammywammy]

99. Well, I am a home owner

:) But not married and no kids.

[Kittycat]

143. Scandalous!

You should be irresponsible and carefree, if you're an Obama supporter.

Seriously though... All this over-simplifying why we choose whom we do, is a bit insane.

[tammywammy]

169. Agreed

Someone should start a thread on why do old people like Hillary? :crazy:

[Barack_America]

19. How do you possibly not have him on ignore?

I would go insane if I had to read his bullshit posts on a daily basis. lol

[MadBadger]

20. I decided to take him and others off today. Ill probably put him back soon.

[thoughtcrime1984]

33. My ignore list is pushing 100

I don't like getting angry sifting through confrontational posts constantly, thus the itchy ignore button finger. It is possible to be respectful to people, even if their beliefs and candidate differ from yours. I don't like to go after people on here, but it's like some just beg for it. P2BA was one of the very first to hit my ignore list. There, got that off of my chest.

[JVS]

144. You missed so many threads about how Ted Kennedy's endorsement hurts Obama

[Radical Activist]

39. lol Isn't all the condescension wonderful?

The Boomers used to think young people should be in charge before they aged.

[JI7]

182. considering they couldn't beat Reagan

they shouldn't talk like that.

[ErnestoG]

40. When do I get my ignorant fuck badge?

getting left out like this, what am I, chopped liver?

[JVS]

139. Woohoo! Me too. Ignorant fucks unite!

[JI7]

180. ignorant fuck is what i think of when i see that person's posts

[Singular73]

21. Hope.

Plus, he's so Denzel.

[Singular73]

22. Hope.

Plus, he's so Denzel.

[Radical Activist]

34. The Democratic Party has largely ignored young voters for years.

Bill Clinton set the tone. Candidates talk about prescription drugs *for seniors* and protecting social security but not college grants or student loan forgiveness. They've been written off and will go to a candidate who is finally speaking to them.

Most young voters have never seen the Democratic Party really stand for anything or provide a vision for the future. We've been spoon-fed small poll-tested plans with no enunciated principles or ideology. Obama at least provides a hopeful vision for America and some guiding principles that young people like.

Also, young people have grown up not trusting leaders. They know how to spot a phony. They're not going to support someone who voted for the war but is now against it. They see that for what it is. They're not going to support someone who changes herself or himself in every election. In some ways young voters are smarter because they grew up being skeptical of leaders in both parties.

And if your first political memories as you came of age were Bill Clinton's blowjob then why the hell would you want a return to that idiotic mess? Time to move on.

[ShadowLiberal]

52. I think it's several reasons

I'm an under 30 year old white college student, and support Obama, I've got some theories for the huge age gap on his support. I think it's a combination of all of these reasons I list.

1) The 30 and under generation grew up remembering the good old times under Clinton when we had lots of economic prosperity, and how awful things got under Bush, then there's Bush's "control the elections with 51% of the vote" strategy that also helped turn them off. After 7 years of Bush young people are fed up with the old ways and want change so much that they care about change more then experience.

2) Like it or not race is an issue to, if you look at the South Carolina results young people were the only group to cross the racial lines in large numbers. Young people tend to be much more socially liberal then their parents, so race doesn't matter to them. For older people however, it does unfortunately matter. I've got 3 grandparents left, I don't know who two of them support in the primary on either side. But for my older grandmother, who's around 80 years old, I think race does matter to her even if she won't admit it. A few weeks ago I overheard her talking about Hillary and Obama, she's all ready to vote for Hillary in the general election (and was disappointed with her defeat in Iowa, this was before NH voted), but seems almost decided already that she'll support whoever the republican is if Obama gets the nomination.

3) Obama just has more things that appeal to young people then Clinton. I mean he's a great speaker when it comes to motivating people (an important thing to get young people to get out and vote), he always talks about hope and change, which is what young people want. Also I think Obama's diverse ethnicity has a little bit to do with his appeal to young voters as well, it makes him kind of embody change from who he is, America is a very diverse country racially, and Obama is diverse racially.

4) Young voters are more dissatisfied with the 'establishment', so an 'establishment' candidate of a different party just doesn't appeal to them.

[tammywammy]

61. That's a good analysis.

[RiverStone]

85. thanks for the thoughtful answer!

Great reason's ShadowLiberal --- appreciate you sharing.

And I think much of that holds true.

I would not say that young people today are necessarily more socially liberal than their parents - their grandparents - YES! But many of us parents were pretty damn socially out there in the 60's and 70's - wild and experimental as it was. But back then, way before the internet, ipods, cell phones, and satellite TV - we had far less of an opportunity to stay informed. It was more about what the masses were doing and fighting for (or against).

Today's young folks have an infinite amount of ways to not only keep in touch - but be in touch around the world. Lets just say today's kids have a much more sophisticated social thing going.

And Obama knows how to connect right there!

[goodgd_yall]

280. Yeah, your point 4

Does seem to be part of it too. I can remember that being a factor wa-a-a-y waa-a-a-y back when I was young too.

[rodeodance]

55. Younger folk are more likely taken in by the Glitter whilst the elders are more wise

[glowing]

57. American Idol, txt message, and Britney Spears.. they are used to fads

even if they are a bad idea.

[MadBadger]

66. You've got some nerve

[tammywammy]

70. No, he's just got ignorance.

[glowing]

90. I suppose.. I do. I've had a lot of nerve. I have worked and I have struggled.

I'm 28 and have held the line (female by the way)... I have seen the shit.. I have walked the walk.

You don't sit in the trenches too long, without not being able to see the world for what it really is. I woke up a while back. Its not the same and you can never-ever go back.

[rodeodance]

87. yeah fads, they come and go. Also they are more into Glitter.

[VotesForWomen]

269. good one. nt

[HughMoran]

59. He's only 46 himself

I think his youthful appearance and message of hope and change are things that young people can relate to. Remember, young people are not afraid of "change" as they are not yet set in their ways.

[rufus dog]

60. I only watched the first minute but I don't get your point

Is it the under 30 crowd is superficial? I FUCKING DON'T CARE! Even thought I don't agree with the assesment, I will take anyone who votes Democratic!

Reagan won with a bunch of neo nazi pricks that were under 30 and were against the "losers" who gave us hippies and viet nam. And we got 20 fucking years of ASSHOLES who begat Hannity and Beck. I will deal with the Democratic assholes out of this group because I am damn confident that we won't let the assholes rise to the top but will use the majority for a greater good not for selfish gratification.

[RiverStone]

102. I said it is MORE than just the video...

Of course I'm not suggesting 30 and under are that superficial. It's much more than that (and yet that is part of it).

The point of linking to the video is simply --- Obama makes young people feel HOPE and EXCITEMENT and that he is SOMETHING NEW!

Up thread I mention that my 18 year old daughter is totally thrilled to be voting for Obama - her first vote ever this year. And I'll tell ya, before he came along she never took the time to ask me shit about politics.

It is a lot more than superficial, but it is also superficial too. Imagine plopping Obama down into the last rethug debate and what do you see - Obama with his diverse looks and perspective vs middle to semi-old boring white guys.

Young folks see that to, and crave something very, very different.

[Auntie Bush]

64. Because they weren't around to fall in love with the Clintons. All they know is what the read .

From what I've read...they media hasn't been fail and balanced regarding the Clintons. How many of them have had time to investigate them throughly? OK Maybe some of them have read Ken Starr's book or report. Then who would support the Cintons? I think it is just a generational thing and young folk like to follow the sheep/their friends. It's the herd mentality! Heavens forbid one of their friends disagrees with them. They don't think for themselves yet. anyway...that's MHO.

[Bicoastal]

92. You're waaaaay off.

I was 10 when Bill took office. I LOVED the Clintons and forgave them all of their faults. But they've been steadily disgracing themselves since the start of the war...I felt disgusted when Bill Clinton said he would have done the exact same thing Bush did in Iraq, and betrayed when he later declared he never did any such thing. (THIS 25-year-old read your Time magazine interviews in College, Bill, so don't even think about it.) Don't even get me started on Hillary, who's been planning this obfuscation every step of the way, from her IWR vote in 2002 to her hide-behind-Bill strategy these days.

Seeing a red-faced, finger-pointing President Clinton rage at reporters in Nevada was the final straw for this Obama voter. To use an expression familliar to people my age, the Clintons officially "jumped the shark" in January 2008.

[Radical Activist]

105. This will be the most politically skeptical generation in American history.

We grew up learning about Watergate in school. We came of age seeing a President we liked lie to us and waste two years of the Presidency on an idiotic personal mistake. I think Gens X and Y are far more politically savvy than the boomers were in their youth.

There's a reason young people aren't supporting the two candidates who voted for the war. They don't buy bullshit.

[Radical Activist]

111. We knew more than what we read.

Just think about how many young voters today were in their teens or early 20's when Bill said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." THAT is the Bill Clinton young people know. And we aren't falling for it again.

[karynnj]

244. No that generation grew up with the Clintons in the White House

My two college age kids remember those years. The oldest remembers filling in a map in 1992 with 2 colors and being so excited when it was called, way after what was her normal bedtime for Bill Clinton. She remembers watching the inaugural entertainment. She was then in second grade. He left office when she was nearly through with high school. She and her sister even made a tiny internet newsletter attacking Bush in 2000. Both were extremely knowledgeable and aware - as were most in their of their friends.

The oldest reminded me of all the good things I always said of HRC, the younger asked why I failed to criticize the Clintons when they deserved it. She does not think she can vote for HRC. She is inspired by Obama.

[Steely_Dan]

72. Because...

idealism and youth run hand-in-hand. It takes many years to separate substance from superficiality.

-P

[Bicoastal]

73. Obama's younger boosters bring out the WORST in his opponent's supporters...

At least they do on THIS site...I really can't understand it, and will eventually stop coming here less and less if it continues.

In another post from last night, I praised Obama's victory, letting slip the info that I was 25. Someone else had the nerve to basically call me and everyone else my age uneducated thumbsuckers rebelling against their parents. They closed with the memorable line "Just wait until MCCAIN DRAFTS YOUR ASS!!!!!"

I don't get it--aging GOP Baby Boomers got the bright idea to push my generation into another mindless war authorized by aging Democratic Boomers. People my age signed up for the army because they were repeatedly lied to by people their parents' age, and they've been dying en masse over there ever since. But suddenly, WE'RE the stupid ones?

To answer your question, I think he's got people under 45 in his camp because he actually takes our support seriously. But what do I know? I'm a baby.

[MadBadger]

76. I HATE DU right now. I've never felt so unwelcome by DUers than right now.

[tammywammy]

86. Don't you realize

Us under 30 are just too stupid. :eyes:

We're too busy with American Idol and text messaging to know what's really going on.

[rufus dog]

112. screw american idol

but can you help me with text messaging, I am just so slow and need some tips!

[RiverStone]

123. I'm twice your age...

But would never presume that YOU don't have something to teach me.

In fact, I'm sure you do.

At 25, I was trekking through the Himalaya.

I was trying to figure things out.

All I found were more questions and less answers...

But I was in such a damn good place!

I wish I could go back and take more advice from that 25 year old.


peace~ :)

[Bicoastal]

127. Hey, thanks.

That means a lot, it really does. :thumbsup: :hug:

[madrchsod]

130. take heart -tom hayden endorsed barrack today....

i`m 61 years old and the last thing i would ever say is that "kids" (hey i`m old enough to be your granddad) are not smart enough. shit i heard the same dam thing when i was in my late teens and 20`s during the 60`s and 70`s. sure we made mistakes but this what you guys are supposed to learn from our mistakes and do better. when barrack said those things about boomers and reagan he was correct.my generation made big mistakes but this time if the young people get out and vote you may have a chance to save our republic. if you do not know who tom hayden is google-to me it`s a better endorsement than kennedy.

[Bicoastal]

140. LOL, thanks, I know who Hayden is.

Growing up in California, the child of two liberals, I know all about him. Chicago 7, Jane Fonda, Mayor Riordan, etc, etc...

He even teaches at my college now--Occidental, the same place where Obama went. (At least, until he transfered to the Ivy Leagues)

[madrchsod]

158. that`s cool...

ya we made some big mistakes but that`s what you`re supposed to do..learn from us...

[RiverStone]

147. tom hayden is a better endorsement than kennedy....

Absolutely agree madrchsod.

And those of us that remember the 60's know why.

Ya know, Obama just might win the whole damn thing after all. :hi:

[JVS]

149. Fucking whippersnappers!

[Xithras]

77. One of my students told me "Hillary reminds me of my grandma"

I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I have to mention it.

Personally, I do think that age has something to do with it. People my age and younger (I'm 33) look at the boomers and think "old people". Hillary's generation is our parents generation...the establishments generation. Obama has the appeal of youth, to those younger voters looking for a change. Maybe they perceive him as being more likely to reflect their own views.

And before anyone jumps on me, I have no cat in this particular fight. I'm still voting Edwards, so you may take or leave my unbiased two pence as you see fit.

[madrchsod]

137. i`m hillary`s age and i think she`s old

the last thing i want is two geezers running for president. john`s a good guy ..hey never give up the fight...

[VotesForWomen]

270. hillary is so yesterday; that's what they think. nt

[goodgd_yall]

281. Well, you know how Americans regard age

It's defintitely not a good thing in any way. Especially if you're a woman.

[Steely_Dan]

81. The More Things...

change, the more they remain the same.

There is no way you are going to tell a twenty-something that they have a lot to learn. Who among us did not think we had all the answers when we were twenty-one? All of us felt that way when we were that age...no one could tell us anything, we had all the answers. And, we were certainly open to the inspirational word...belief is easy when you are young.

It is one of those things where "if you have to explain it, they're not going to understand."

Even this post will probably be slammed...because they truly do not understand.

-P

[MadBadger]

82. I'm just so annoyed at people telling me that I support Obama because of ignorance

Or that its the culture and Im just supporting the latest fad. I take great offense in this.

[ErnestoG]

88. That says more about THEM than it does about you.

Hang tough. We got the right guy ;)

[RiverStone]

107. Very good reminder....

Good advice to remember if your young or old :hi:

[rodeodance]

93. nah, maybe its just the glitter.

[tammywammy]

94. And what exactly would that be? "Glitter"

??

[rodeodance]

103. you know hope, vision, --sparkly-sounds good to the ear, but empty in substance.

[MadBadger]

104. Except this 20 year old has heard substance.

[tammywammy]

108. No, no, hnmnf

We're too young to understand. Just listen rodeo and we'll see the errors of our ways.

[rodeodance]

110. well good for you.

[Radical Activist]

120. Maybe the old folks couldn't find Obama's website on the internets

Lots of substance there. Just as much as the other candidates. ;)

[ErnestoG]

122. HAHAHAHA!

It's a series of tubes, I tell ya!

[madrchsod]

155. same shit i heard 40 some years ago

by people that thought my generation did`t know shit. i`ve heard substance and a glimmer of hope which is far more than what my generation is offering today. it`s up to you guys to do it-it`s your world now and you better make the most of it. you have so much more than what we did in the 60`s,hell all i had was a mineograph machine.

[JVS]

170. Movie 2001 Mariah Carey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaKxGrajnzY

[Steely_Dan]

98. If You Are...

referring to my post...I said nothing about ignorance. You should really be less defensive about this. No one is calling you ignorant. The fact that this is what you are hearing proves my point that "if it has to be explained to you, you wouldn't understand." No offense meant here. It's just the way it is. And this you will not know for many years to come. I wish it weren't that way...but it is what it is. I think you might be offended because you know that there is a ring of truth to this position.

-Paige

[MadBadger]

100. Not referring to you, but others in the thread.

[RiverStone]

116. age is relative - so is wisdom.

I've met some very old, wise spirits in a few young people; and conversly some really ignorant fools in a few old people.

Your persecutive is just as unique and important as the next person's, regardless of age. :hi:

[glowing]

109. Everyone has had diff. experiences in their lives. Its not ignorance.

Its inexperience, its some subtle change, a chance, a peice of Hope. I understand its easy to get caught up in this crazy crap and think its great. Obama could be great, but he needs to find his voice and not his advisor's voice. He could be a great leader. I don't think he will be if he finds his way to the White House. He's not wrong all the time. I just don't think his policy goes far enough.. and that woman who gave him $3.01, should have it given back plus.. that's a gallon 1/2 gallon of milk... Its great to have Hope, but it doesn't seem people are listening or respecting or even caring about the issues.... This is a country with an infrastructure and an economy in shambles.. We are the greatest country that allows people to live in sub-human conditions. We are the country that gives the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, yet cannot provide access to good nutrition, education, healthcare (Dr.s not insurance), or a slew of other very important issues.

Look its easier to do the "star" thing. Talk well, Hope well.. but at the end of the day, it doesn't pay the bills and it doesn't pay for food and it doesn't do a whole lot of good. Its good to have hope.. but you need a plan and the plan is not good enough or well thought out enough.

[tammywammy]

115. And can't someone have a life experience

that shows them those things and still chose Obama as their candidate?

[Steely_Dan]

118. Yes...

This can be true. There are exceptions to the rule. But generally speaking, life experience can be gained only one way...through life experience.

-Paige

[Bodhi BloodWave]

202. hmm, now what was it a friend once told me about experience

Something along the lines of that 'experience is the result of the mistakes you have made' or something akin to that

[glowing]

125. I know that with his policies, life is not going to get better for me. This is

a fact.. Oh, it'll be ok.. I'll keep struggling and my husband will keep struggling. College education doesn't mean shit anymore.. which most young people are soon finding out when they leave college. I have a house, have my health, and have health insurance... I didn't always. So, the struggle is a bit worth some of the rewards... at the same time, I don't want the world we are making worse for my son. A nuance of change is not going to do anything but give a tiny glimmer. I'm just really disgusted. There is a lot to be said for working from the ground up and getting the progressive voice into congress. They are the people who will make or break any of these contenders..

[tammywammy]

132. That's fine

You looked at all the candidates and decided Edwards was a better choice. That's great. I looked at all my choices and picked Obama.

[glowing]

142. Well, if you must know.. I put my hat in with him when Kucinich was

left out of the debates.. It was the end of the road for him.. and he is a true American patriot. John I went with because of the many voices so actively working around him.. Good people and a candidate that listens and gets back to you on questions is pretty remarkable.. There was a big push for John to come out against telecom immunity the first time it came around and people pushed and pushed.. and he made the statement. He listened and he reacted to the voices who are working hard..

Also, I went to college in south carolina... I get what he's talking about. His life growing up was not a cake walk and it still isn't to a lot of people there... The saying was, "if it wasn't for being in the United States, South Carolina would be a third world country"... I'm not happy with all his votes in the senate, but none of them have a perfect record. I think he gets it. I think his plans are good.

But hell, I'm in Florida, and this state is already going to McCain..

[Radical Activist]

95. Part of it is the same appeal Dean had.

I was never a big Dean fan but I've met a lot of 20-something Obama supporters who went for Dean last time. Dean talked about a Democratic Party that stands for something again. A long, Clintonesque list of policy proposals that could change anytime its met with opposition just doesn't cut it anymore. Young people understand this is what Obama was talking about when he spoke about Reagan and Republicans being the party of ideas. Their understanding wasn't clouded by old grudges.

And we're sick as fuck of hearing about what people did during Vietnam! The best part of an Obama nomination might just be that he'll be the first candidate in 16 years where we don't have to hear endless arguments about what he did during Nam. No one gives a shit anymore!

[Invidious]

114. We have to wait for the boomers to DIE first...

I don't claim to be THAT young..but at some point..they'll pass the torch...it'll be our turn EVENTUALLY

[Radical Activist]

117. It was time for the young to lead when they were young

but now we have to wait our turn. Most boomers I know see the double standard there and aren't threatened by young people getting active. But a few people on DU act like real condescending jerks.

Every reference Clinton makes about Obama's youth and inexperience drives more young people to his side, along with her questioning the right of students to vote in Iowa.

[Invidious]

121. and it will bite her right in the arse..n/t

[Steely_Dan]

119. No...

Apparently your time is NOW...after all, it is the youth candidate that is apparently leading the way.

-P

[rufus dog]

128. not true

Leaders want to pass the torch. Ego can get in the way but many successful people are ready to let go and let someone else continue the fight. One of the keys is not to get caught up in the BS from the preceding generation. Those fighting too damn hard have other issues that you need to understand and many times ignore.

[AGirl]

152. it's comment like that that drives my 24 year old ass to Clinton

I respect the baby boomers, they've bought real changes to our society, I see no such drive among the people from my generation. Thanks.

[Invidious]

234. You're obviously looking at the wrong people then. n/t

[JVS]

154. which is why we TOTALLY have to put the kibosh on health care

We can't let these fuckers all reach 100! ;-)

[Jamastiene]

229. So, it's ok to attempt to work with the Republicans,

who have shown us time and again that they will only screw us, AND wishing for Boomers in the Democratic Party to die is fine with you too? No wonder we disagree so strongly. Maybe your generation should just move on over to the Republican side now and spare us your rudeness. You belong with them, not us.

[Invidious]

235. Don't twist my words

I didn't WISH for anyone to die.

[krabigirl]

237. wow...just wow.

[NMMNG]

271. How about you two throw us fogies into the incinerator

We seem to be standing in your way, talking about old-people crap and messing up your bright plans for the future. :eyes:

[Sapphocrat]

275. Your anticipation is noted.

That's some fucked-up shit. Get help.

[NMMNG]

287. How long before she and her pals:

[silverweb]

296. Wash your mouth out, young'un!

Or your keyboard or whatever.

This boomer has campaigned for Dean and Obama, so stop with the broad brushing already! :spank:

This is not a generational war, this is a movement!

Picture a river of people of all hues and ages, moving forward around the country... offering help to and even carrying one another at times... passing multiple torches around to whoever can best light the way when it's dark... leaving each place better than we found it.

If you think that's cheesy imagery, come up with something better that illustrates your concept of what's happening and what we're hoping for.

Keep in mind that when we boomers do eventually die off (and it's gonna be a while, honey, so don't hold your breath), you will be the "old people" that the younger ones will be hoping croak soon -- unless you help to change that attitude from one of conflict to one of mutual support.

There are those who will try to hold our progressive movement back or divert our course, but this movement and this energy will not be stopped, and excludes no one who wants to help or be helped.

Now let's get with it.

[depakid]

126. Obama is nothing like Dean

Howard Dean actually ran a government- and stood for concrete proposals, some of which he'd actually implemented.

In addition, the centerpiece of Dean's campaign was take the country back- which implied taking it back from the lunatics on far right.

That's the OPPOSITE Obama's theme of seeking "unity" with them and enabling and legitimizing their irrational beliefs and corrupt policies -not to mention their St. Reagan mythology.

[Radical Activist]

131. Obama actually has a progressive record that matches his message

so he is very different from Dean in that sense.

[depakid]

145. And what would that be?

Supporting Liebermann in the primary?

Trouble is, I haven't seen Obama out in front showing leadership on progressive issues (particularly if they're controversial).

What I have seen however are things like his criticism of the Alito filibuster- when he should have been using those powerful rhetorical skills to rally the troops- and that's something that WILL affect young people throughout much of their lives.

[Radical Activist]

150. Since you must have had a hard time finding it

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

Willful ignorance isn't a good reason. He has the most progressive record of the three candidates running and his platform has just as much substance as the others.

[depakid]

176. Perhaps if he had credibility

what's mentioned on the site would have more impact.

Fact is, his actions (and inactions) along with his statements since he's been in the Senate speak much louder than what one sees on a website....

Frankly, what I'm sensing is another sell out in the making. Hope I'm wrong, but I've seen this flick before.

[Radical Activist]

187. Obama does have a record before his Senate career.

Its a good one.

Saying Obama will sell out is speculative. I don't expect any candidate to dramatically change everything overnight anyway. Maybe young people are more realistic that way. Boomers have a habit of looking for a leader to come in, save the day and solve all of the world's problems. I don't think young people do that as much today.

[Jamastiene]

228. Gee, how do you think that comment makes Vietnam Vets feel?

Sincerely, that was a very rude thing to say about them.

[Radical Activist]

250. It was about Presidential elections

and the fact that the last 16 years of elections have revolved around Vietnam whether it was Kerry the hero or Clinton the draft dodger. I'm sure every cares, as I do, about those who went there.

[Two Americas]

263. we did

We gave a shit in the 60's about the older people, and about the struggles in the past. We were intensely interested in what people had done, what they could teach us. We didn't blame them for the struggle, we recognized them as our brothers and sisters in the struggle and we respected them. We didn't see them as losers. We understood - and shared - their anger about McCarthyism, suburbanization, the triumph of capital over labor, the way the left had been sold out, about Jim Crow in the South and about segregation and discrimination in the North. We were anxious to learn about what had happened in the 20's, 30's and 40's. We weren't "tired of it" nor did we think that tossing away the past was necessarily progressive. We felt more in common with the warriors from past struggles than we did with many people who were our own age. In fact, it was when the movement became "Woodstocked" and more about the younger generation with vague notions about social and cultural "change" and "the dawning of a new age" that the serious political movement collapsed.

[Radical Activist]

266. You made a big leap there.

Learning from the past doesn't require making an entire election in 2004 about what people did over 30 years ago in Vietnam. There's nothing productive about that.

And I've had a few baby boomers tell me they got sick of constantly hearing about WW2 from their parents generation in the same way I get sick of everything being about Vietnam. So maybe there's not much difference today.

[NMMNG]

283. Well, you know what?

I don't like every election, including this one, being one big circus of "I'm a better Christian than you!". Who can be seen visiting the most churches? Who can invoke the name of Jesus the most? Who has the highest faithiness quotient? Who is going to be the first and best to throw GLBTs and atheists under the bus in the name of political expediency? You would think they were running for Pope rather than President sometimes.

So it appears we both have our personal crosses to bear, eh?

[Sapphocrat]

289. 1. You're wrong. 2. You owe all veterans a big apology.

Learning from the past doesn't require making an entire election in 2004 about what people did over 30 years ago in Vietnam. There's nothing productive about that.

Those who forget the past -- or stubbornly refuse to learn from it -- are doomed to repeat it. You have proved that you have no interest in or grasp of even the most recent history (see my reply to your skewed perception of Monicagate), so it stands to reason that you couldn't care less about Vietnam; "over 30 years ago" must seem like a thousand years ago to you.

Your deliberate ignorance frightens the hell out of me. If Vietnam -- and by extension, WWII -- is so irrelevant to you, how can anyone trust you to lead? My God, you talk as if the United States of America didn't exist before 2000! Or maybe it's that you think nothing was ever important before you were born.

And I've had a few baby boomers tell me they got sick of constantly hearing about WW2 from their parents generation in the same way I get sick of everything being about Vietnam. So maybe there's not much difference today.

There's a hell of a lot of difference: No Baby Boomer I know (and I am not a Boomer, but a Buster) would ever spit in the faces of The Greatest Generation as you have just spat in the face of every Vietnam veteran -- and in fact, every veteran -- as well as everyone who ever tried to stop that immoral, futile war.

I really don't give a damn what you and all your pass-the-torch pals think of my generation (which I share with your precious Obama; we are EXACTLY the same age), or the older Boomers' -- you are destined to lash out at "the older generation"; I did it, my older siblings did it... it is a rite of passage you must experience before you reach maturity (when the next generation will do the same thing to you).

But I am appalled at your reckless dismissal of the servicemen and -women who served before you were a twinkle in your daddy's eye, and who continue to serve because they believe, rightly or wrongly, they are protecting your slacker ass.

I know this reply won't have any effect on you, but for your sake, I wish it would -- because, buddy, someday, someone's going to knock you down a peg or three, and they won't do it by wasting words on you, as I am. If this is the way you treat people in real life, I'm amazed no one's kicked your ass for it.

Alert or this all you want -- it's not a threat, only an expression of utter amazement that your mouth hasn't gotten you into some serious trouble in meatspace.

[Radical Activist]

292. Did I touch a nerve?

Its not about veterans or just one election. As I wrote in my other post, it has been every election for the past 16 years. Its the right going after Clinton for supposedly dodging the draft. Its the left attacking Bush for his Guard service, or lack of Guard service.

Do you really think the Swift Boating of Kerry had ANYTHING to do with learning about the past or honoring Veterans? Do you think that episode had any positive lessons about Vietnam? How do you think young voters were supposed to interpret Kerry's constantly highlighting his service in a war he strongly opposed when he got home?
Although, I did learn something from the swift boating of Kerry. I learned just how deeply bitter many Vietnam vets are about what happened and especially about those who opposed the war like Kerry did. No other issue mattered for some Vets who still thought Vietnam was the right thing to do and were still carrying a grudge against Kerry for speaking out against it.

I'd welcome an honest, healthy public discussion of Vietnam and lessons from the past. But that isn't what has been happening as the boomers have used Presidential elections to carry on old grudges of the past.

So please keep in mind that my post is about elections. Its not about you and its not about all Vietnam Vets. If you think I'm disrespecting veterans then you missed my point.

And yes, I've had more than one boomer tell me their parents made the mistake of supporting Vietnam too long because they compared everything to their past in WW2. So learning from the past is important but getting stuck in it can be a mistake too. Right now I think America is spending more time in its elections getting stuck in the past instead of learning from it.

[Two Americas]

293. very sad

It is common for younger people to imagine that their elders are holding them back, or are in the way. I think this is because they have been given so much and taken that for granted, so they still depend upon that and when they are on their own in the world they confuse no longer being taken care of for imagined obstacles and opposition.

I remember when I was about 16 I had the good fortune - thanks to a diminutive elderly spinster English teacher who invested time in and cared about my sorry ass - to read a letter that Abraham Lincoln wrote to a young colleague. He told the young man to stop whining about how the older generation was holding him back and to stop using that as an excuse. He said that the world was all there in front of him, and what he made of his life was all in his own hands. That was a revelation to me. It would have been easy to go along with the crowd back then - "don't trust anyone over 30!" - and it is always easy to see all of the mistakes that my elders had made. But from that day on, I swam against the current and broke from the crowd. They all wound up toeing the line and following in the exact same paths that their parents had followed. I am glad that I lived a more interesting and challenging life by breaking free from the herd of my peers.

Give that some thought is all I would ask. Someone got through to me back when I was looking at things the way you are, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

[Radical Activist]

295. So just because

I think an entire election focused on swift boating Kerry, one in which issues young people care about were almost completely ignored, isn't exactly my idea of healthy, productive debate, that means I'm blaming boomers for holding me back? Wow. Did you mean to respond to some other post and replied to mine on accident?

I think some people on this board aren't dealing with aging very well. All you people so quick to give me condescending lectures have no idea how much I've learned from 60's activists in person or how many books I've read about LBJ, RFK, MLK, or books written by Alinsky, Hoffman, and Zinn.

Again I ask, what is productive about elections that revolve around what Kerry, Bush or Clinton did during Vietnam? Why are several people so intent on ignoring my point and taking personal offense? I guess its hard for boomers to understand the degree to which young people and our issues are being ignored in politics because its not happening to them. Finally a candidate is talking to a younger generation and some boomers are acting like we stole their lunch.

[Two Americas]

297. I don't know

If you find what I said of value, use it. If not, ignore it.

Yes, if you think that some group of people sorted in your mind by their age are causing the problems, then I think you may be blaming others for holding you back. I did when I was young. I don't know if you are or not.

I didn't say that "elections that revolve around what Kerry, Bush or Clinton did during Vietnam" are productive, so I don't have a response to that.

[rufus dog]

124. man it is hard to read a thread when you have someone on ignore

This from a guy who has been booted from Hannity.com three times and never put anyone on ignore until two days ago with P2B! It takes a special skill for me not to listen to someones opinion no matter how ridiculous. Congrats P2B, at least you can take pleasure on making thread reading a pain in the ass even when I am ignoring a pain in the ass.

[saracat]

129. Because our educational system is in tatters and they have lost the

ability to excercise critical thought. No one ever asks what "hope" means.

[rufus dog]

133. when you paint with that broad brush

don't you splatter yourself with a lot of paint?

[saracat]

179. Nope.Not when it is true. I have taught workshops at various high schools over the years

and I have many friends in the educational system as well and at the risk of sounding like an old fart, we have all been shocked at the degradation of the educational system. Last year I was speaking at a very exclusive school to a group of high school seniors whose parents paid enough money that they ought to be better educated and I discovered that they did not know America had been a British Colony.The folks you see on Leno with the silly answers aren't just jokes they are real. I have friends whose kids are in the so called "gifted " High School programs and I have read the work of these "gifted"students and it wouldn't be honestly rated as "C" in elementary work years ago.The dumbing down of America was all part of a plan and it is still continuing.It is part of the GOP agenda and has been working very well for years.

[MadBadger]

184. Most people in High School are under the voting age.

[saracat]

188. Most students were seniors.

[MadBadger]

134. So now we cant exercise critical thought. That puts your comment right up there with P2BA

[saracat]

185. See my response above. It is certainly not true that "all" young persons cannot exercise "critical

thought but many cannot.It is all part of the GOP agenda. Watch how many American Idol contestants "believe" they can sing.Watch how many think that others can't sing but they are "gifted" only to be revealed as no more gifted than the "losers".This seems a widespread phenomenon. The ability to evaluate themselves and others seems to be being lost.I do know that a knowledge of history is important in making a comparative judgment and that knowledge is lacking for the most part.Flame away.

[tammywammy]

136. um, wow

Nice broad brush.

[Tweed]

193. What generation is responsible for the state of the education system?

That sound would be you shooting yourself in the foot while eating your hat.

[AGirl]

138. because young people want to be rebellious

We live in a culture where people make superficial changes everyday in order to make themselves feel special and young , and Obama fits that bill. He doesn’t offend, he doesn’t cause too much headaches, he is an easy going guy who says nice things, and he represents changes and could defeat the dominating and scary female authoritarian Hillary Clinton, whom reminds us of our mothers, and we want the mother who wants to ban video games and the boring 60s feminist to go back in to the kitchen because older people need to GTFO and let a young slick guy to get in charge. Werds.

[MadBadger]

141. So am I rebelling agaist my parents who hate Clinton but love Obama?

[AGirl]

148. Obviously, a lot of Obama supporters have other reasons to support him

But I would say that a lot of the goodwill toward Obama and disdain for Hillary represents those sentiments I’ve expressed.

[Bicoastal]

151. Geez, it really just isn't worth it anymore, arguing with you people...

OK, fine. Have it your way.

You're absolutely right. We're supporting him because we like video games and inoffensive fluff and hate our parents and overall we're just too damn stupid to know any better.

Just like you and the politicians you supported when YOU were our age.

[AGirl]

156. I am 24, and I know many dumb people of my age

who support Obama because he is not Hillary, "bros before hos", right?

Please, I think my generation is one of the most apathetic , cynical and ignorant generations of all time. I am speaking from my own experiences, when I think about social activism, I think about the good old days when the boomers were young.

[Steely_Dan]

159. I think it took a lot for you to...

say that. It is the first step towards wisdom...but your post already reflects that wisdom.

-Paige

[AGirl]

163. It pains me to admit it but

My generation is very comfortable with the status quo and complaining about it at the same time.


When I look at Obama, I see another flashy guy who will set up some the young people for disappointment in the future again. Same old crap!

I think Hillary might actually have the wisdom and intellect to bring a few good changes to this country. She is smarter than her husband, too btw.

[Steely_Dan]

166. I Agree....n/t

[rufus dog]

168. and who would you compare Obama to?

I see that he offer hope and I see Hillary offering the same old crap that Bill offered almost twenty years ago. The Clinton's didn't deliver before and a few changes aren't enough! When I was 25 it might have been enough after Reagon, now the promise/reward is much too low.

[AGirl]

173. hope is not enough

I need someone who can provide results, who knows what it is like to handle things in Washington.


Things do not change by complaining about how the system sucks and hoping that it will change for the better, changes happen when you are familiar with the status quo and have experienced the present situation for a long time so you will know the actions required to make the changes that are achievable

Being a president is not about inspiring a movement only, but having the ability to multi task and lead the country with the acquired experiences and knowledge.

Obama has not started a social movement, his movement is all about the “why can’t we all just get along”, people need to first raise their consciousness about the real problems of our society in order to be empowered enough to join any sort of movement, Obama does not inspire true thinkings, but group think and mob mentality that everything will be okay as long as the old people and their baggages are removed from offices.


The problems facing this country required someone who has deep kno ledges of the past and how we got from the past to the present, and how to navigate the political structures to fix things. Anyone who is truly rational will know that it is too much of a risk support Obama and hope and pray everything will turn out okay if a new face is in the white house.

[Bicoastal]

162. How lovely for you, then, to be so much smarter than the rest of us.

Please, lead and we will follow your example. Just don't include me and the other Obama-supporters on here in your generalizations.

And FYI, I only despise the Boomers who talk down to me...like they've been doing non-stop lately on this site. If you can't see that, you must be blind.

[Steely_Dan]

We are not only responsible for what we say...

we have at least some responsibility in what we hear. You are hearing through a filter that you cannot begin to understand. This does not make you stupid. There are plenty of people you age that reflect wisdom beyond their years. I think a board like this one tends to draw them here. Having said that...we are talking about the vast majority of your generation.

-P

[Steely_Dan]

161. Exactly...

We we did the same damn thing. And our generation is not calling you stupid. It is simply a lack of life experience...no offense is intended.

-P

[Bicoastal]

167. You ARE calling us STUPID! Maybe not your generation, maybe not you personally...

...but many many MANY older DU'ers have been saying EXACTLY that lately. To others. And to me, personally.

If you want links, I'll send them to you, but I hope you can see it for yourself and perceive what it is--ageism. True, I haven't had as much life experience, but on the other hand, I DO keep up with these issues. I DO know my history. And I DO read about politics constantly, on this site and elsewhere--any place I can get the facts. I'm a political junkie. And I vote.

And I'm voting for Obama.

[Steely_Dan]

172. Look...

Our generation is not without its assholes. I think that they are trying to say what I have been trying to say, but are doing a poor job of it.

You are NOT stupid...far from it. All we are saying is that it is impossible for you to have the life experience of our generation. This does not make you bad...or evil...or stupid. In addition, we understand that youth and idealism run hand-in-hand and that it is easy to be drawn in by messages of hope and change. You are no different than we were when we were your age. It's just the way it is.

-Paige

[Bicoastal]

181. Ok, I'm simmering down now...

...I think my generation is pretty cynical, to tell you the truth. It's hard not to be--I DO have high school classmates who died young in Iraq. However, Obama makes me feel like we can transcend some of the ugliness and partisanship that's been building up for more than just the 8 years Bush/Cheney have been in office. And in the end, isn't that important, too? When people feel like they trust their leaders, with the understanding that they are trusted back, they often take the message to heart.

Take JFK, for instance--he wasn't perfect on the issues. He could have done more to stop Vietnam from happening, relations with Cuba could have gone better, Lyndon Johnson in the VP seat would prove to be a mistake, and in his private life he sometimes behaved like the entitled, lecherous, spoiled-rotten playboy his enemies always said he was. BUT if it hadn't been for his personal dignity, inspirational speeches, and overall charm, would an admittedly idealistic program like the Peace Corps ever have gotten off the ground? Isn't that the most impressive part of his brief White House tenure--that despite his flaws, people (ESPECIALLY young people) trusted him enough to follow his example and do incredible things with their lives?

Now, I trust Obama on the policy issues--in fact, Edwards and Hillary (for the most part) on the issues too. But don't completely discount the message, the style, the intangible within Barack Obama's run for the presidency--approval for America is at an historic level outside AND within our country. We need our next president to be someone who can change that around, and change it FAST, before we're so unpopular we can't come back--and in my opinion, Obama is the only candidate who has the intelligence, the integrity, and YES, the charisma to do that.

[Steely_Dan]

194. Well...I agree with you post...

It is well thought-out and makes a lot of sense. And let me add that I fully understand why you feel the way you do. So much of leadership is the ability to communicate the kind of optimism that I too feel from Obama.

Having said this, I must tell you that my choice was the ticket of Biden/Obama. I felt strongly that we needed the kind of experience that only Biden could have brought to the White House. Combined with Obama's optimism and message of hope, it would have been a ticket that could not have been beaten. In addition, Obama would have gained considerable experience in preparation for taking Biden's place, thus insuring a long Democratic reign.

There is nothing wrong with Mr. Obama. I have respect for him and his message.

As a side note....I agree that JFK was not the perfect President...but in his defense, The Bay of Pigs was a policy set before he got into office. LBJ was simply a ruthless egoist that was more concerned about his place in history than he was with the welfare of our country.

Look, I honestly believe that nearly everyone on this board agreed that Biden had the experience and leadership qualities that could have turned this ship of state around....and Obama could have carried the banner into the future. Out of all the times in our history, these are the most critical. I do not believe that it is a time (necessarily) to make Presidential history with the first woman or the first African-American President. Things are so critical that we needed to turn this ship around. We can't afford to risk this election on the sexist and racist electorate that are waiting to pounce during the general election. And believe me, they are out there. We needed to get our equilibrium back before taking that risk.

Sorry that I rambled. I am so disappointed that America seems more interested in taking this risk when we can least afford it, than it is to regain our balance with someone like Joe Biden with Obama waiting in the wings.

-Paige

[rufus dog]

164. don't despair

The top end of the Boomers love the fact that they are the greatest generation. Completely missing the fact that they were provided all kind of gov't programs that allowed them to go to college and buy their first home. Ignoring that their parents went through the depression and were kind enough to buy into the programs of the 30's through 50's that provided the chance for their kids to have a better life. If there was ever a group with a right to bitch and moan that was it.

[Radical Activist]

175. Its the arrogance of age.

[AGirl]

177. Generally, older people do know more.

I know that as I get older, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I am just more realistic than I was a few years ago when I was 18. I also know that deeply entrenched ideas don’t go away overnight.

As part of the GLBT, I know that social values can change rapidly, but the remnants of prejudices will remain for a long time. I guess the more marginalized you are, the more you are aware of the bullshits that are being fed by the mainstream society. I know that as a non white transsexual, I will never have the same opportunity that an average person might have. I know how hard it is to change deeply held institutional values, perhaps that makes me more skeptical , but I think I am on the right track. People want to congratulate themselves about how things have changed, I always think about how things have remained the same over so many years.

[rufus dog]

186. I challenge that

Twenty years ago, could you post your opinion, in any forum, without immediately being challenged? Change happens, it just doesn't happen fast and it hurt like hell. The easiest thing to do is to try to insulate oneself or protect others. It may eliminate some pain but does nothing to promote the needed change.

Don't ask Don't tell was the final straw for me with Bill in the 90's. I am a heterosexual male, but the down and out wimpy ass stance from Clinton was my issue. There was a defensible response based upon numerous European military units that he could have thrown back, but he took the least aggressive route.

[AGirl]

189. It is certainly nice that you are challenging my view.

I am not the type who just sits back and let people discriminate me. I am a pretty normal woman in every aspect, I live as one and look like one, nobody challenged me usually. I am not ashamed of my past and where I come from or who I am, and I will dish back whatever people dish at me.

I am university educated, I have no interested in sex works, I have no interested in being anyone’s mistress, I expect to get settle down and find a man who will accept me and love me for who I am, and that’s what I demand and expect for myself and from this life.


I guess that is somehow of a change not long ago when transsexuals had no choice but to be int he closet, I am pretty resilient and I know many younger transsexuals are like that too, we don’t take shit from society like the older folks had to.

[Steely_Dan]

197. Excellent Post...

in the reality based world...

[Steely_Dan]

196. Quite the Contrary...

It is the arrogance of youth...

[PatSeg]

259. Historically

arrogance as been attributed to the young, not the old. But that is just a broad statement, the same as the old are considered to be inflexible and closed-minded. No meaningful debate can be entered into with such limited thinking.

[Radical Activist]

260. The fact that at least two people assumed I don't know about

the usual cliche "the arrogance of youth" illustrates my point. Its arrogant for someone to automatically assume that they know much more than a younger person. Turning that old assumption on its head was my point and you and the other post helped prove it.

Presuming that being older makes one automatically wiser is its own kind of arrogance. I'm seeing a lot of that in this thread.

[PatSeg]

261. I am not embracing the cliche

I am pointing out that it is just that, a cliche. When we resort to that kind of thinking, we build walls and no meaningful debate can take place.

I know many bright, open minded young people and many closed minded, opinionated older people, but I would not put everyone in a particular age group in either of those categories.

[krabigirl]

238. I don't see how Obama would appeal to the rebellious.

[Steely_Dan]

146. It Reminds Me...

of the famous quote by Mark Twain:

"The older I get, the smarter my father becomes."

-P

[rufus dog]

157. My father always said I was smarter than him

It was very seldom that he challenged critical thinking, the only time I can remember was with older brothers during the late 60's early 70's when things were moving too fast for him. Other than that he would never dream of stiffling creativity and thought by claiming wisdom based upon age and experience.

It takes a great deal of security in knowing what you do and don't know! In this thread I see quite the opposite.

[Steely_Dan]

165. Then...

you are an exception to the rule.

-P

[rufus dog]

171. and why is that?

My kids are going to be smarter than me. Every generation in the 1900's improved in education and income. Why shouldn't that continue.

[Steely_Dan]

174. This is not necessarily true...

It may be in your case...but not generally. Our children may or may not be "smarter" than we are...that seems to be beside the point. We are talking about life experience. You can have a really brilliant kid, but he/she may not know how to apply that intelligence without the wisdom that time brings.

-P

[rufus dog]

178. I partially agree

But stifling critical thought, as many on this thread have attempted to do, and belittling choices, again as many have attempted, do nothing to transfer wisdom. Sometimes you have to let the horses run. Someone belittling a choice of Obama over Clinton does nothing to promote knowledge. In fact, I will strongly argue that Obama is promoting thinking while Clinton is promoting status quo. So when people post that Obama is a basically a wild horse while saying Clinton will get a "few" things done I challenge the premise that a "few" things are good enough. I am living proof that challenging things can get a bit better is the best you can hope for is bullshit. Striving for more without constraints, no matter what other "smart" older people tell you is B.S. Much greater gains are possible, and in my life I have learned that people that try to hold you in check are trying to set you expectations for their own gains or based upon their own insecurities.

[Steely_Dan]

198. I Agree....n/t

[PatSeg]

257. My adult children are smarter than me in many ways

but when it comes to politics and historical context, they generally turn to me. There is a big difference between reading about historical events and having actually lived them.

[babylonsister]

183. A transformation that is sorely needed. I really think he has the chops to

make it happen. It will be a rough road for anyone, but I have more faith in him than anyone else, and it seems many young people do, too!

[JVS]

190. A prevalence of non-lead paint in these people's childhood homes

[Lucinda]

192. Short attention spans?

;)

[FrenchieCat]

195. Cause they see that their future will be fucked up if they don't take charge....

and so they are? :shrug:

[workinclasszero]

230. Great pic!

That graphic says it all! Its amazing to see some of the people on this site shitting all over the future members and leaders of their own party.

Somewhere in a smokey backroom, rethugs are laughing.....

[VotesForWomen]

200. there's nothing new under the sun; young folks just don't know that yet. nt

[loveangelc]

201. i'll say it again. Why is it okay to diss young people?????

We're not all the same. We don't all like Obama because he's cute or because he's biracial and that's "cool" or "American Idol" whatever people say we like him for. We're not all airheads who care about nothing but Britney Spears and America's Next Top Model, though, yes, I do follow those things. I'm in my 20s and yes, maybe I like reading Cosmo Girl and I can also enjoy Ulysses. People should not stereotype young people in such a small box. I don't post that most of Hillary's supporters are all old, pastey, wrinkled housewives who feel the only way to have their voice heard is through her, or old retirement home people who need to be wheeled in to the voting booth, but if I were to say that, many would be upset. Because it's not all true.

[PatSeg]

256. It isn't alright to make blanket statements about

any group based on age, gender, or ethnicity. As soon as I hear someone do so, I generally tune them out. Pitting one group against another is counterproductive. We can combine the energy and vitality of younger voters with the experience and knowledge of older voters and achieve so much more than resorting to all this infighting.

[goodgd_yall]

282. I agree---some of the things being posted are downright insulting

Just know some of us know young people aren't one homogenous bloc.

[pampango]

203. Democrats bashing the youth vote!?

Do we want to encourage young people to be politically active in the Republican party? Perhaps bring their "unrealistic, idealistic" dreams to the other party, so we can beat them with our life experience and "real world" wisdom?

My memory may be going as I get older, but I always believed that our party was the one where youthful ideals and enthusiasm was welcomed and encouraged, while the Republicans were the party of old, stogy people without an original thought.

[DrFunkenstein]

204. Because The Thought of Two Bellicose Candidates in November Creeps Them Out

Both McCain and Clinton love to sabre rattle and feel that nuclear weapons can play a role in defeating terrorists. What's not to love?

Meanwhile, you have someone who can turn the page on the whole nightmare and move us forward instead of treading the same old tired waters. Someone who can actually PASS major health care and energy reform.

[cgrindley]

206. baby boomers have wrecked this country for long enough

seriously. good riddance.

[NMMNG]

273. I hope your parents don't read this board

Such disrespect.

[goodgd_yall]

284. Pssst

that's ok---I never bought that "greatest generation" crap. A friend and I were talking about our lame upbringing and laughed about that phrase "more like the most f___ up generation" we said. Yeah, they endured the Depression and WWII, but their parenting skills stunk to high heaven.

[Jamastiene]

207. Young people do not yet know about what is possible

and what is impossible in the political world.

They are not yet aware of just how hard it is to "sell your soul" to the devil(insert name of Repug here) and get him to hold up his end of the deal. They do not yet know that anytime a Democrat tries to work with the Republicans, we always get screwed up the ass with a hot poker and get no satisfaction at all in the deal. It never fails to work against us. It's like something you can take to the bank, that we will always get the short end of the stick in those situations.

Because of that fact, a "feel good" candidate appeals to many of them.

Psst: A-they ow-knay ot-nay at-whay a-they are oing-day et-yay. Ya know what I mean?

[Perry Logan]

208. Too much ecstasy. Too many video games. Blood poisoning from piercings.

Now you KNOW I'm just kidding. Obama is young and charmismatic. It makes perfect sense young people would go for him.

[goodgd_yall]

285. I had a feeling you were

But I clicked on your message just to make sure you weren't being a total jerk.:-)

[bklyncowgirl]

209. Some thoughts from a "tail end of the Baby Boom" type

One of the problems with being born in 1955 as I was is that you arrived on the scene too late to take part in most of the really cool Baby Boom stuff but you ended up having to deal with the consequenses of whatever they did both good and bad.

It's not as if the baby boom generation was monolithic in terms of its politics. Like it or not Bill & Hillary Clinton and George W. Bush are all members of my generation and share in its excesses. I can understand younger voters being turned off and looking for someone younger, someone who tells them that they can have a future that is better than the past. I don't even think its the age thing so much as Barack Obama is different in many ways. He's African American but not someone who came out of the civil rights movement. His ancestors were never enslaved in this country and this may give him a different perspective. As a former college professor he knows how to relate to young people.

My daughter wavered between Kucinich--the guy she agrees with--and Obama. Why? Because she wants someone who appears to be a genuine human being and feels that the Clintons will be dragging a great deal of old baggage, both political and personal, back into the White House. She also like me did not want to vote for someone who had the colossal bad judgement to vote for the Iraq war.

I personally wanted a more experienced candidate--but also do not want to vote for anyone who voted to authorize the Iraq war. I supported Richardson, now that he's out I'll vote for Obama as the last man standing who was right on this war from the getgo despite my qualms about his management ability. Neither Clinton nor Edwards exacly blow me away with the executive experience either.

Like it or not we Baby Boomers have screwed things up in a very big way. Yes we did many good things, but we also have to answer for the Bush Administration, runaway deficits and a distinctly irresponsible approach to our national government.

Any wonder that young people are going with the guy who's trademark is 'CHANGE'.

[THUNDER HANDS]

212. because he's not a lying POS mean spirited used car salesman type

and young people have very attuned bullshit detectors.

[mnhtnbb]

213. It's easy to be an idealist when you're young. They've been told by parents and teachers

that they can do anything; there are no boundaries; sky's the limit. Many of them have never held a full-time job.

In other words, reality has yet to set in with a lot of younger people. If you think anything's possible,
it's easy to be uncritical of the guy who's selling you dreams.

[Jamastiene]

220. God, were we that hardheaded when we were young too?

I know I was. I guess this is karma.

[mnhtnbb]

231. You're invicible when you're young. Take on the world. Didn't we?

Look what we did with civil rights, equal rights for women, ending the Vietnam war. BUT, it didn't happen
because we sat around talking about it. People died for those changes. I can't believe how naive
some of these kids are. I question whether Obama is that naive, or just put up by the powers that be.

[PatSeg]

253. Yes we were

and much of what we try to convey to a younger generation is that our youthful idealism was commendable and with experience we've learned that it must be accompanied with some pragmatism to be effective.

I've also learned to view my parents' generation with more objectivity. Though I still don't agree with many of their ideas at the time, I understand them better when I look at the effects of the Great Depression and World War II.

[MadBadger]

232. How bout we support him cuz he was against the war from the start?

[Radical Activist]

258. That's the attitude you need to have to make real change.

This is why change movements are driven by the young. The cynical realists are their own biggest obstacles to getting things done.

It may not be a rational expectation but believing change can happen is the first step to making change a reality. Its the audacity of hope.

[Apollo11]

215. Maybe it's because Obama, like, Rocks?

To anyone under 40, Hillary Clinton looks like a nice old lady who spends a lot on her hair, make-up and power dressing designer outfits. Maybe not old, but almost 60 and kinda wrinkly if you see her up close. One minute she is the most aggressive macho debater you have ever seen, who knows how to stand her ground and withstand the right-wing attack machine. The next minute she is playing the victim and trying to elicit sympathy. She is asking the women of America to support her on the basis of "Haven't I suffered enough already?". Because anyone over 20 can remember the bad smell that hung around the Whitehouse at the end of the last Clinton Administration, and I guess all of us felt some sympathy for Hillary back then.

Meanwhile, John Edwards looks like a suntanned white-toothed smiling salesman, or maybe a born-again preacher, or a trial lawyer in a low-budget made-for-TV drama of the week. He looks like the kind of candidate who is telling you what he thinks you want to hear. His whole pitch is based on an emotional appeal to stories of hardship. Not saying what he has achieved in politics but how this is all "deeply personal" to him. How his greatest weakness is that he sometimes gets too emotionally involved with other people's problems. I guess most young people are smart enough to know that just saying you care don't necessarily prove you actually give a damn. It's like the Janet Jackson number: "What Have You Done For Me Lately?"

Obama seems to say what he believes and to believe what he says. His whole career up until now seems to be motivated by a desire to help people, solve problems and heal divisions (rather than make lots of money).He sees running for President as an opportunity to bring people together. So from a young person's perspective, I guess you could sum it up like this: "What's Not To Like?"

[RiverStone]

252. What's not to like?

Nothing!

That according to my 18 year old daughter who is voting for the first time this year.

It is remarkable how much she is excited about Obama, though can't get her to talk a sec about Civics class.

There is something even intangible that is reaching into their hearts and heads of young folks - and it has lasting power. Lets just say my kid has not debated who she wants (among the Dems). It's been Obama from day one.

[ellisonz]

274. You win the thread.

Congratulations!

:headbang:

[MyNameGoesHere]

217. Because they did not experience the "change"

offered by Jimmy Carter after a previous lying, thieving, conniving administration that ran America into the ground. people bought into Carter because they wanted a change and to end partisan bickering and get America back. The sad fact was and i really hate to say this about such a great man, is he was too inexperienced and nice to change the country. I see the same thing happening now. We do not need a nice man or an agent of change right now. We need some kick ass, take no names experienced politician to get things moving back to the right direction. Cam Obama do this? I don't know. He has not shown me anything that shows he is up to the task. Can Hillary? Probably not, but she do have some cajones. Edwards? Maybe. But to focused on a small segment of society when the WHOLE nation is in dire straits. For all the fine candidates we have, i am afraid none of them can get the nation back on track.

[Steely_Dan]

247. This is why...

I supported Biden from the start. What we need most right now is a person with experience.

-P

[goodgd_yall]

286. Hmmm

Maybe that was Carter's downfall. I never thought of it that way. I think Clinton does have the toughness and wile to kick ass. That's why I'm supporting her.

[Darth_Kitten]

221. They haven't gone through a recession and can always.....

run back to Mom and Dad for support? :shrug:

[MethuenProgressive]

223. Because look for a candidate who 'kicks ass' instead of one with experience and maturity?

The under 30's have made Paris Hilton a major cultural icon.
Do you really want these people selecting a President?

[MadBadger]

233. Actually, its the press who has made here a cultural icon.

[goodgd_yall]

288. Good reply. n/t

[cgrindley]

242. Good riddance, boomer (nt)

[Jennicut]

224. Ageism is so like retro

Look, I'm 32 years old. I'm not under 30 but I consider myself fairly young still. I grew up with the Clintons and supported them in the 90's. I voted for Bill Clinton in 1996 when I was just 20 years old. I voted for Al Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004. Something really changed for me after Kerry lost in 2004. I lost some hope for the country and for the two parties in particular. I have watched this primary season from afar and slowly came to the realization that I would back Obama as quite frankly Al Gore decided not to run and Obama was the next best thing for me. Its was not about age. It was Obama's hope for a different future. Maybe we can still have hope here as well. Maybe that is naive but its better than Hillary's vision. For someone who once wanted to shake things up she sure changed into a typical Washington politician. That is simply why I prefer Obama over her. But I will vote for her in the GE because Republicans offer nothing new but more war and tax breaks for the wealthy. We have to much at stake in this election to fight over petty differences like Hillary's old and Obama is young. They are both middle aged, okay?! So so stupid. Obama is half white and half black. Big freaking deal. I am a white woman who once dated a black man in college. Race is a non issue for me unless it involves direct racism. Hillary is a woman. Are we so backward in this country that Pakistan has had a female prime minister already and the United States is still bickering over this? Whatever. We need to start debating real issues in this election like the fact that healthcare is a mess. I'm a diabetic and my insulin keeps going up and up in price and that is with insurance. We spent trillions on the war in Iraq instead of fixing other issues. George W. messed our economy up, we are living in a peak oil time and prices will only go up as oil production becomes less. We are facing the crisis of climate change where our whole world can and will change if we do nothing and we are arguing about what color pantsuits Hillary wears. Enough! Please, can't we start debating real issues? This is too important to let the MSN distract us from the real problmes facing us. I have two daughters. They are only 2 1/2 and 3 1/2. I want a better future for them.

[MissMillie]

226. I'm glad that the under 30s are involved so much this time

It might make the difference between having a democrat in the white house or putting another republican in there.

[rucky]

239. Idealism vs. Cynicism couched in "realism"

And the latter has not been working out for us. Time to pass the torch, because I'm not okay with the prevailing attitudes in this country.

[redqueen]

240. Who knows. I know someone who's even somewhat politically aware

early 30's, was ready to support Obama based on nothing but Kucinch's strategy decision in IA.

There's another person I know, late 20s, slightly politically aware. He just thought the buzz sounded good.

*sigh*

[RestoreGore]

241. because they are like us when we first saw JFK...

Before he was assassinated and our hope with it as we had out eyes opened to just how totally corrupt and evil this poltical system is and how you have to play the game to be one of them. And perhaps, some are simply too young to see anything but the dazzle and pretty speeches without asking the hard questions... which I suppose appeals to a candidate seeking to avoid those hard questions.

[Steely_Dan]

248. And...

...I've read a lot on Obama, feel like I know Obama. And I assure you Obama is no JFK.

-P

[PatSeg]

255. My problem is I don't feel like I know Obama

I don't know who he is. His stump speeches are very inspiring, but I can't find the substance there. With the current state of the world, I need more than "hope" and "change". Obama could be the one who could turn things around, but I need some evidence. This is not meant to dismiss Obama as a candidate, it comes from experience.

[goodgd_yall]

277. Yes n/t

[here_is_to_hope]

243. ADD? n/t

[gaspee]

245. IMO

and mind you, this is just my IMO (I am not a Clinton supporter - I'm an Edwards supporter)

Ahem... IMO, the under 30's grew up during the Clinton years and were weaned on the right wing noise machine's hatred of the Clintons. The were impressionable during those years and believe the lies about Clinton.

All you have to do is read the Anti-Clinton screeds here on DU to see it. I've seen both Clintons pilloried on this board to the point where I'm voting Clinton if Edwards drops out before my primary.

I really think the under 30s minds have been poisoned against the Clintons. If DU is any indication, they hate Clinton more than they like Obama - and how, tell me, is that a message of hope and change?

[goodgd_yall]

290. I kind of agree with you

It seems like there are quite a few people on DU anyway that really bought the RW line on Clinton.

[philly_bob]

249. Isn't Ron Paul also getting support from 30-and-unders?

If Generation Y is voting for the hope of bipartisan accomodation, then we should look at what's happening in the Republican primaries.

Ron Paul is being marginalized over there.

[cascadiance]

251. Hmm... "Don't Trust anyone over 30" again?

Seems like we went through that in our youth too when trying to separate ourselves from "the establishment". I just hope that this gets channeled into constructive efforts in fixing the real problems of our day that stand in the way of REAL change that would benefit most of us Americans. At the top of that of course is corporatism!

[DiamondJay]

264. here, its simple

because he looks young, and the hip thing on facebook is to hate hillary because the media hates her, and today's young grew up with the hillary hating media. I mean Hillary cannot beat the young man vibe thing Obama's got goin on, but smashes him to pieces on policy.

[goodgd_yall]

291. That sounds credible.

Are you under 30?

[Seabiscuit]

267. The dumbing down of Murika has trickled down to the under 30 crowd and settled there.

[goodgd_yall]

276. Naivete and idealism

are the markings of the under 30 crowd. They imagine Obama to have more integrity and pure-heartedness than other politicians. They believe if he becomes president there will be a transformation, the lion will lie down with the lamb and we'll enter a new era of American political life. Little do they know the viciousness of Republicans who will do anything to keep America the biggest corporation and the largest military power in the world. They forget that if the opposition hates you enough, they'll find a way to destroy you and there will be enough gullible and equally hateful Americans who will support the effort as well as a media happily acquiescent (I'm thinking here now of the Clinton years---the affair that led to the impeachment vote, brought to you by Kenneth Starr on behalf of the neocons.)