Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Form over substance ?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:02 PM
Original message
Form over substance ?
Well, let me wade in here as I make my first post here at DU.

I completely empathize with those that opine their frustrations, even after a win by Mr. Obama last night. Like Michael Moore and countless other pundits, I applaud the fact that Democrats came out in force to vote, which was the true storyline of this Iowa Caucus. It bodes well for November 2008. It better, for frankly, I couldn't envision another four years of Rethug politics from a Repug President.

However, shouldn't we peer behind the curtain, as I suggested countless times during the early Presidency of Bushco?

Bush is no more than a moronic ENABLER, a mere puppet of CORPORATE AMERICA; his empty head and pliable strings were easily pulled by his corporate masters from Exxon to Boeing. These Corporations need WAR. They need it for profit and gain, no matter the cost to citizenry, whose rights eroded everytime corporations gained at the largesse of Georgie to Corporatists. Bushco never met a Corporation they didn't like, from Halliburton to Blackwater. Wall Street, not Main Street , USA, is their only concern.

While people got caught up in the feints and distractions of hating one man, they took their eyes off the REAL ENEMY: CORPORATIONS.

Despite Obama's soaring rhetoric, I am reminded of the old commercial for Wendy's: "Where's the beef"?

In the end, after being distilled, wasn't last night's speech mere FORM OVER SUBSTANCE?

Dumbya said it best. "Fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice...can't get fooled again." My point simply is, voters have to look beyond APPEARANCES and at hard facts.

Rhetoric, filled with glittering generalities, does not produce results.

It is a FACT, one that I understand is conveniently ignored by Obama supporters, that Obama takes more Big Pharma dollars than any candidate, save Hillary.

To me, that spells CORPORATIST, the downfall of this society.

Obama talks the talk, but does he walk the walk?

John Edwards has completely DEFINED the source issues about which this race and the slippery slope loss of individualism are about. Simply, Corporate greed noted first in Eisenhower's prescient farewell speech, in which he warned that the rise of the "Military-industrial complex", could destroy a Democracy, to the near Fascism of Bushco, IS the issue. It's the CORPORATIONS, stupid, updating the famous quip.

Before Edwards surging Populist brimstone speeches, Obama never talked about the categories he seemed simply to name last night, as if checking off category boxes. He spoke of lobbyists being pushed out of the political loop, but it is HIM, NOT EDWARDS, who is the benefactor of their largesse. Think people. If you take their money, you aren't going into battle with them and you end up with Corporatist Hillary, all over again.

There can be no compromise, no quarter given to Corporations or the facilitators of those who have eroded Democratic principles. It is far too late. Corporations have overtaken individuals in political supremacy. Whether it is immunity from prosecution or Wars dictated by monied contributors, there is no place for these entities in any society of compassion and empathy. How is Obama to protect us with Healthcare when he is cozying up to the healthcare lobby?

I was trained to be a critical thinker. Red Staters who would fall before a modern day "Elmer Gantry" in Huckabee, are merely exposing the same stupidity and vapidity as 2000 and 2004. That type of Fundie thinking is dangerous and antithetical to a Constitutional America.

So, we Democrats have to INSIST that our politicians be better than that. We can't act like rubes anymore and put "blind faith" into a candidate whose bona fides are not "street earned". Edwards grew up poor and made something of himself. I understand the virulent distaste for corporations, especially insurance carriers, if you are a Trial lawyer, which, by the way, is not a pejorative as thugs like to paint "liberal". Obama is anything but street. He grew up privileged.

Who will fight for you? Who understands that bipartisanship is the mealy-mouthed policy of Harry Reid and Speaker Pelosi and Rahm Emmanuel? We need a FIGHTER. We have no more chances to stop big business unless you want a Corporate World, where you are merely a consumer unit.

I want to see Obama talk FACTS. POLICIES. STRAIGHT ANSWERS. He could begin by explaining his taking money from the very lobbyists he called out last night, which is really EDWARD's issue. Edwards has taken nothing from Corporate America, putting his relevance as a candidate in our hands, through direct support.

This isn't "sour grapes". It is my recognition that we can't afford to get it wrong this time. We can't be docile TV era programmed people who react to push button entreaties. You can see it clearly now with fear-mongering, so you have to see it when a candidate TALKS an issue, but has no SUBSTANCE behind it.

Edwards plan for the domestic economy was approved by Galbraith and a host of the most important economists in the United States. His vow to stop poverty comes from the gut, and his venom for Corporations is not MSM themed "fringe anger", but the exact measured reasoned approach to a group who will not go softly into that good night. Obama would have you sit at a table with a Pirhanna and snake and expect REASON to follow. Edwards comprehends that the only way left to balance the equation is what I always say:

"NEUTER CORPORATIONS NOW"!!!!!

I'm happy as a Democrat for yesterday. But, Edwards has nothing to prove to me. Obama does. And you should insist on nothing else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for a marvelous first post!
And welcome to DU, ClericJohnPreston. :-)

:kick: and Recommended
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
62. I am confused: just how does he take $$$ from "big pharma"?
Open Secrets shows that he received 99% of donations from individual contributors. That money taken from "big pharma" comes from individuals who work in that industry. This is not money that comes from corporate contributions to PACs, but from individuals.

Isn't it misleading to say that the $266,384 that Open Secrets says he received from individuals working in that industry comes from "big pharma"?

Sen. Obama's contributors' breakdown looks like this:

1 Lawyers/Law Firms $10,288,381
2 Retired $5,796,438
3 Securities & Investment $5,593,081
4 Real Estate $2,869,348
5 Misc Business $2,654,718
6 Education $2,635,286
7 Business Services $2,550,068
8 TV/Movies/Music $2,486,050
9 Misc Finance $1,679,720
10 Health Professionals $1,629,706
11 Printing & Publishing $1,136,446
12 Commercial Banks $1,093,259
13 Computers/Internet $1,057,292
14 Civil Servants/Public Officials $873,761
15 Non-Profit Institutions $644,831
16 Insurance $524,845
17 Retail Sales $491,368
18 Other $473,147
19 Hospitals/Nursing Homes $438,741
20 Construction Services $397,472

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/summary.asp?id=N00009638&cycle=2008
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. wow...there's that "soaring" rhetoric...
Edited on Fri Jan-04-08 04:07 PM by stillcool47
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. 'souring' is the hot new word.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I guess....
Edited on Fri Jan-04-08 04:11 PM by stillcool47
either one is about the same....they really "pop".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. Welcome
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. welcome to DU
and thanks for a wonderful first post!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
debatepro Donating Member (683 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. Pot...
Kettle

I find it odd that you chastise obama for "rhetoric" and 'form"... you say he doesn't provide any specifics about policies...yet your most specific point is about how edwards grew up and "Obama is anything but street. He grew up privileged."

So you like edwards more than obama because he offers more specifics than obama... but you don't offer one single quote from edwards outlining something specific....


Lets not repeat mindless banalities. Change the narrative... try and use substance and specifics yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. I call your flippant attempt at dismissal of the message
Tsk, tsk, "debatepro". Perhaps you earned that title from countless "strawmen arguments"?

I'm not here to educate rote and verse the politics of any single candidate. Perhaps, mistakenly, I assume anyone wise enough to be a member at DU , has the capacity to LEARN the planks and platforms of the candidates.

The point, easily understood by most, is that we must insist on ANSWERS. In fact, Edwards was specific in naming the poison which undermines this free society. That poison is Corporatism, which leads to Facism , which is antithetical to a Democracy.

I want people to be CRITICAL THINKERS. I want them to demand answers.

Edwards, as stated, does not have to prove his bona fides. He has lived them and he has called out the real enemy. However, Obama has yet to explain, the paradox of taking Pharma dollars and then expecting to sit nicely at a table and "work things out". Edwards comes from a field and arena with which I'm familiar, the Courtroom, where LOGIC overcomes the fuff and distraction of the Corporate defense team.

There is no peace or harmony or bargains to be made with the devil. Cheney heads the Energy task force. You instantly recognize the treachery of $100 a barrel and $4 at the pump, when there are no safeguards to Corporate enablers. Why then is it so hard to comprehend that the issue is TRUTH. Answer how someone can take corporate money and then fight for the little guy?

Answer? In your dreams. I know insurance companies after 25 years of battling them everyday, after starting as an employee of one of them. The only way to take them down, especially now, is battle with no quarter, no concessions.

Only one candidate knows that and speaks it.

John Edwards.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
orlandomom Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. Obama
I agree. although I like Obama I am just unsure what he is about. I think we need a fighter at this point in time. I think Edwards has the fire in his belly to win this one and go after the corporations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
9. GREAT post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
smokey nj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. Welcome to DU, ClericJohnPreston!!
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Steely_Dan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. Excellent First Post and Welcome.
Edited on Fri Jan-04-08 04:19 PM by Steely_Dan
I must warn you though. As well thought-out as your post is and it raises some important questions (that we would ask of ANY candidate), you will be pounded. I did not feel this way before today. However, I have been reading Obama posts all morning and I fear that you will be no more successful at getting the specifics you are looking for.

I was proud to be a Biden supporter because he was VERY specific about what he would do. I was also proud of the Biden supporters who worked their asses off to answer any question ANYONE else had concerning his policies. It was extremely rare that a Biden supporter would attack another DUer. We remained patient and tried to respect others that may not agree with us. It was the hallmark of our approach.

I'm sorry, but if what I am reading from Obama supporters is typical of their approach...'nuff said.

I like Obama. I want him to be successful. I just want to hear some substance. Does that make me an Obama hater...Gosh, I hope not.

-P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. Wow, EXCELLENT first post - welcome! k&r n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corkhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. BRAVO!!! Welcome to DU, I am looking forward to reading more from you.
:applause: :headbang:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
14. K&R n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KennedyGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Welcome..
Great post..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JanErikM Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
17. I'm pro-corporations myself, and...
I'm pro-corporations myself, and Clinton would be my favourite candidate. Obama is growing on me however, and Richardson is certainly highly qualified as well. As far as I'm concerned, Edwards is the only poor candidate left in the race (besides Kucinich, though he's inconsequential). A nancy boy such as Edwards wouldn't stand a chance against the Republicans. Last night was amazing, and I loved the great voter turnout... it left me highly optimistic. I'm still sad about Senator Biden dropping out, however.

I'd like to see a preview of what Obama would be like in a debate versus someone like Giuliani and Huckabee, that is to say when not calmly speaking about hope, using flowery words, but rather showing some agression and being on the offense. Can anyone link me to such a speech, if he has made one? Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Thanks for proving my point.....
So Jan, you admit that you are Pro-Corporate and thus, Hillary is your favorite candidate. Failing Hillary's success, you recognize that Obama has the "right stuff" for he is Corporatist as well.

I'd like for you to explain to me how there is any Constitutional viability when the merger of Corporations and State, so effectively promoted by Bushco with Halliburton, Blackwater, Exxon and Boeing, to name a few, constitutes Fascism, anathema to a Democracy? Hmm?

Being so Pro-Corporate, it is a wonder you aren't a Republican. Or are you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JanErikM Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Well it was a good point, after all.
There is no Constitutional viability for the government to demand income tax from the citizens either, yet the Democrats aren't opposed to that, are they? Nor am I for that matter -- it's just an example. While I'm far from a bleeding heart liberal of the Michael Moore wing of the party, I find the Democratic Party superior to the Republican Party in most regards and consider myself a "new democrat"/centrist. I do care about the environment, social security, health care and the fight against poverty, and would never cast a vote in favor of a party that promotes christian fundamentalism and conservative views on abortion and gay rights. Furthermore I'm pro gun regulations and against the war, and wish for America to be as well-regarded as it was during the Clinton-administration. By your definition of fasicism, do you consider all members of the Democratic Leadership Council fasicists?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. "nancy boy?" Would you please define that?
Where did that expression come from? I don't recall hearing it before.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JanErikM Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. British I suppose
Edited on Fri Jan-04-08 06:12 PM by JanErikM
Ah its a British expression I suppose, and is generally used about prissy men who appear effeminate. In case "prissy" is British as well, I might as well mention that its definition is "excessively proper; affectedly correct; prim". He's certainly not the kind of man who'd garner much respect from Republicans, who often refer to him as a "beauty queen", "barbie man" "catholic schoolboy" and so on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. "Prissy" is used in American English, as well.
He would garner more respect from them if they faced him in a courtroom.

This guy is an extremely successful plaintiffs' trial lawyer. I've known a few. However they appear on the outside, they are not "nancy boys" on the inside. These men and women are tough as nails with the killer instincts of a shark.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
50. "gay"?. . . . n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
51. Fuck off, freeper troll.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
19. Pray to your God, or your atheist ideal, or a rock, or whatever
that John Edwards defines himself loudly and clearly, and avoids the pitfalls of attack & etc. in the New Hampshire debate Saturday! I think it's obvious that he needs to stay focused there and come out the other side a clear winner, with all of his plans articulated on how he plans to take the country back for the American people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I see nothing but positives from this impending debate !
"Balantz", I see nothing but good coming from the impending debate on Saturday.

With Iowa behind, Edwards is smart enough to see that Obama and Hillary tried to jump on his change issues. Obama has ALREADY set up a TRAP!

The way to expose duplicity is to look into the glittering generalities tossed freely about by Obama in his marshmallow rhetoric ( form over substance ). Obama said he would remove the influence of lobbyists from Washington politics.

Really....

Then Edwards has merely to ask him about his Corporate benefactors and his rhetoric measured up to that reality!

Edwards passes the test of action and deeds equalling his words.

Obama doesn't.

Obama is most definitely VULNERABLE!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I agree.
John Edwards must put in his most stellar courtroom performance tomorrow, with little to no faltering, and literally nail the others to the wall. He has everything it takes to do this, the question is will he?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. another kick nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Thanks Frogmarch !
Thanks for your interest in the thread. Obviously, we are both Edwards supporters; however, I am, first and foremost, a PROGRESSIVE Democrat, and my opinions are predicated on those values.

Also, I am a student of history and a firm believer in rhetoric equalling deed.

With that in mind, duplicitous statements and empty rhetoric are fodder for discussion. When people opine they support a candidate, I assume they back that up with fact and reason. Concurrently, when facts and statements don't add up, I expect people who think critically, will notice that.

I was more forceful and blunt than Michael Moore, who though happy with the result in Iowa, did have hard questions for Obama carefully woven into his blog. Not having Moore's concern for public relations, I can more forcefully state the gaping hole between word and deed in Obama's speeches.

Now, here is a little sleeper I haven't discussed yet. Besides the fact that Obama is a benefactor with open hands to corporate America, which allowed him to outspend Edwards 6-1 in Iowa, his ideal of winning at all costs would render our Party a weakened opposition to Republicans.

What some people label "bipartisanship", I call surrender and abdication. Once upon a time, Neville Chamberlin, Prime Minister of Great Britain, thought APPEASEMENT would work with an aggressor from Germany named Hitler. He called it, "Peace in our time".

Obama would have us all sit at one table, red with blue and sing Koombayah. "We are "The United States". To me, that is making a deal with the devil. His intent is to come across as the good face of bipartisanship. Bushco teaches us that Harry Reid et al are a COMPLETE and dismal failure. You cannot embrace positions which in the end, merely DILUTE your own message and platform.

This Country has swung too far Right and too far Corporate. An FDR style rebooting is equally necessary now. Obama's interests are to pander to States where voters can cross over into your primary/caucus and pull them in with "moderate" talk, for the sake of winning.

Sorry, but we are well past the point of playing nice. Edwards understands that. Obama's type of win is our loss.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. You're very welcome, ClericJohnPreston.
If I weren't already an Edwards supporter, your thoughtful, well-informed posts would have convinced me to become one.

Please keep them coming.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. LOL, "Nancy boy"
Jan, kudos for the lamest whine about any candidate without any sense and reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. As a "War Baby," I salute you. Your reference to Chamberlin and Appeasement...
...is one I've used often (while wondering if anyone younger than 60 would even know to what I refer).

We're in deep trouble, and Obama is too slick for my taste. He's charming and intelligent, but he's too eager to be the man of the hour -- without taking hard stands on the criminality that has preceded the inauguration of a new President in 2009. And he's much too cozy with the Evangelicals. I can believe that Edwards can practice his religion privately, while honoring the separation of church and state. I feel much less sure of that with Obama.

In fact, I don't know whether Edwards will give a pass to all that has gone before, and use the "move on" mantra, either, but he seems more determined to fight corporate malfeasance than anyone -- and in that fight, the past will figure prominently. You don't take someone to court over what they might do in the future, unless it's based on what they've already done.

I have been greatly disgusted at the Dems' harmonious bipartisanship since Election 2006. They are selling our democratic republic right down the river. They are lying down with dogs and rising up with fleas -- metaphorically speaking, of course!

I do not subscribe to the idea that we have three fine Democratic candidates, and any one of them will do as well as the other. A Democratic President who is a bit less fascistic than a Republican one will still embrace continuing fascism.

Welcome to DU!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Thank you for your literate and articulate response!
I'm younger than 60, but I am a student of history and know how to "pierce the corporate veil".

There is a corporate stranglehold on Democracy and only an independent, non-beholding candidate, can protect this Democracy.

Edwards is that man.

P.S. KEITH OLBERMANN IS THE ONLY ONE WHO IS GIVING A PLATFORM TO EDWARDS, GIVING HIM THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY TO ADDRESS THE PUBLIC AND THE MSM AS THE #1 STORY ON "COUNTDOWN" !!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Yes, I'm thankful for KO. I keep wondering when they're going to...
...shut him down.

You will find that there is a certain tendency with some writers on this board to cheerlead and attempt to shut down criticism of candidates with a metaphorical wagging of the finger along with a Sunday school lesson about acceptable behavior. I maintain that the whole purpose of an adult discussion board is to *discuss*, not fall into robotic lockstep, although certain standards of behavior, as outlined by the mods, are very important. A clever turn of phrase is less valuable, in my eyes, than open discussion by everyone of what candidates really do, and do not, stand for. Too often, an honest expression of doubt about a candidate, or their policy, is called "bashing" when it really is just an honest opinion. Therefore, your "piercing the corporate veil" is much needed. There is no candidate with completely "non-beholding" clean hands, but Edwards is rattling cages. Changing the guard without changing that which drives their actions will be relatively pointless.


Thanks for responding! I look forward to your future posts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ninga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 07:38 PM
Original message
WoW.....lovely finding you here and interested in contributing. It is a pleasure meeting you.
I am a radical liberal....with scars earned in the streets of protest during Vietnam and Selma.

I am old, but damn it....passionate. I do not want to leave this earth without seeing equity and justice restored to the working class......and the restoration of our governing class who wouldn't recognize justice if it smacked them in the face.

John Edwards needs to be given 48 months to jump start this country.

Thank you for your contribution and please let us find a way to do more than brainstorm on the net.

:hi:

:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ninga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
60. WoW.....lovely finding you here and interested in contributing. It is a pleasure meeting you.
I am a radical liberal....with scars earned in the streets of protest during Vietnam and Selma.

I am old, but damn it....passionate. I do not want to leave this earth without seeing equity and justice restored to the working class......and the restoration of our governing class who wouldn't recognize justice if it smacked them in the face.

John Edwards needs to be given 48 months to jump start this country.

Thank you for your contribution and please let us find a way to do more than brainstorm on the net.

:hi:

:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
30. Someone posted Edwards and Obama's speech PROVING you wrong. Edwards' negativity
is not going to win.

Nor will his hypocrisy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Edward's negativity? What a joke....
Since when were American Politics subject to the rules of dueling spelled out in the "CODE DUELLO"?

Edwards hypocritical. Please state when , where, how and when. You see, that is how arguments are developed.

The only hypocrite is Obama when he lectures from on high against the influences of Corporate LOBBYISTS, while being their greatest benefactor with his outstretched palms.

I don't need a flame-retardant suit to handle the likes of your muddled reasoning, "cryingshame", I need the red pill from "The Matrix" to awaken you from your MSM induced sleep and lack of critical thinking or reasoning.

The HYPOCRISY is right there in the speech, available at youtube and other places. Now, juxtapose that with Lobbyist's donations to Obama.

Hmmmm?? I'm waiting!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
31. Great questions, and a great 1st post.
Welcome to DU, and don't forget the flame retardant suit.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Thanks LWolf.....nothing here I can't handle
With logic, facts and critical thinking versus emotional pleas and theme candidacies like Obama's.

This country has no leeway in getting it right this time. If people fall prey to mere pleas to emotions and thematic repetition of words like "hope" over substance, we are lost.

But, here is the greatest PROOF of Edward's danger to the Corporate staus quo: I have "Tweety" Matthews on in the background and it is as if Edwards doesn't exist. Nothing but Hillary and Obama.

Huh?

And while we are at it, where does Obama come off gloating that with a win in New Hampshire, he is off to the Presidency?

Beware of praying to icons with clay feet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Be afraid.....when
Joe Scarborough, he of the Huckabee support team,and Rethug extraordinaire, is extolling the virues of Barack Obama.

Be afraid, be very afraid!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. my my so full of yourself
And Edwards doesnt exist he will be gone within two weeks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. The media has easily herded the gullible
since the primary season opened, it's true. x(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
38. Yes everyone is stupid

and theres really nothing behind the curtain because YOU chose not to look. John Edwards hasn't fought for anyone but himself ever. His record when actually in office is a disaster and yet now because he says hes on your side despite all evidence to the contrary you fall for it like a shill. Someones stupid to be sure.

Obama just in his technology issue platform alone makes all of johns fighting look inept.

Fighting spirit is great but you cant force congress to do your bidding. And if you think just cause john is the president all of the entrenched interests will slink away from his mean talk you got another thing coming. It will take someone with an ability to bring people with them not force them to it that will get it done and Obama has a history of getting it done.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

John ehhh not so much. he was great at voting against us though when he actually held office.

Obama has already stood up to the corporations while in the senate http://usaspending.gov / is there because of Obama. You can go and research government contracts and see where the money is going. This just opened in december but is a good first step in opening up our government to true public scrutiny so we can see where the money is going and truly eliminate the effect of special interests instead of pretending we will fight them!

John while in office gave us the patriot act... how special cant wait to get more of that.

Sorry I'll take the guy with an actual history of standing up for the little guy when he got little or nothing in return for it as opposed to the guy who barks real loud but the only standing up he has really done is when he thinks it will benefit him somehow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Typical Obama apologist......
Edited on Fri Jan-04-08 10:55 PM by ClericJohnPreston
Did you say anything "egnever"? I had to wade through your nauseating sense of superiority, not earned of course, to discern you mocked Edwards without specifics, but glittering generalities...like your candidate.

Lets just stick to the FACTS. You condemn Edwards, and his record wasn't unblemished, but as acknowledged by almost every academic blogger, is the repentant candidate. It is Edwards, not Obama, who has driven the Progressive platforms evolving in this race. More important, Edwards has named the destructive force, like some exorcism, CORPORATISM.

CORPORATISM is a poison; it is anathema to Democracy and is the divisive force separating rich from poor in what is , in reality, a class rebellion.

Only Edwards has had the temerity AND CLEAR UNDERSTANDING of the beast, to know this tyranny cannot be leveled by cuddly talk of merged interests and blurring lines. That is the Party of Rahm Emmanuel and Reid, the bipartisan do nothings who have given a blank check to the Bush administration. They are the detestable DLC, a very, very CORPORATE arm of the Democratic Party.

Have you ever fought insurance companies in a Courtroom setting "egnever"? Ever fought Pharmaceutical Companies or other Mass Tort defendants? I have. Edwards has.
Just as the Rethugs tried to paint "liberal" as a dirty word, the term "Trial Attorney" was used as a pejorative by the Corporate establishment. Why? Because it is the only check and balance on unrestrained Corporate profiteering at the sake of innocent victims damaged by the acts of culpable defendants.

You can't get an insurance company to negotiate away the unrestrained profiteering they have enjoyed for years. I ask members here to simply look at their auto insurance. One accident and you're instantly "rated" and can't purchase insurance without paying an extraordinary premium. Rates go up for medical malpractice, EVEN WHEN THE CARRIERS BOAST OBSCENE PROFITS.

Thats right. Even after all the Allstates and State Farms pay all their claims, allege fraud, they walk away with BILLION DOLLAR profits. Next? They ask for rate hikes to always insure their profit. Apply that to Exxon/Mobil and all the energy companies.

Better late than never, but who has recognized, the only way to stop Fascism in this Country and Corporate greed, is Edwards , who also knows you can't PLAY NICE. This is an enemy that must be fought, not placated. Every Corporate gain is at the cost of the Constitution or your private Civil Rights such as illegal wiretapping.

This is what the stock market would call, a "correction". It is a long time coming and I assure you, Obama better have a threshed out plan of attack, other than what I've read or heard, which speaks to the methodology by which he intends to stop the corporate stranglehold on Democracy.

The past is past. I'm listening here! Now! What are the candidates saying now, where does their support come from? These are the salient questions and every one of them demonstrates that Edwards has his finger on the pulse of what is really wrong, not a PERCEIVED canned rhetoric of change, but a policy of change. Also, that change cannot come without a battle.

You are truly NAIVE about the political process if you think Obama can take corporate money and then fight a fair battle on behalf of the average American citizen.

Lets see what happens in the debate tomorrow, shall we? We can then reconvene and see whose answers are straight, versus those which are mere fluff and empty. For the moment, I'll join the conventional punditry of Michael Moore and 70% of the literate blogs who can see through the fog and shroud of euphemisms and verbosity, to see that there is no there, there, with Obama's imagery of a policy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aussie leftie Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
41. Unfortunately, I cannot vote in your elections but
if I could I would, Edwards would certainly have my vote. Being a political tragic, I have been following the lead up to the primaries very carefully and Edwards is the only one who has substance, political nous, charisma and empathy for the people who are doing it tough.

Obama reminds me a little of John Kennedy. Except for attempting reforms in racial discrimination, there is not much else positive I can remember him doing as president.

I had always admired Hilary Clinton until the day I saw her giving Bush a standing ovation when he "declared" war on Iraq.

I do hope voters look for policy and ignore the rhetoric.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
42. Excellent post -- I thoroughly concur
The difference between Edwards and Obama is that Edwards got specific about the core problem of corporatism.

He is passionate about that. And -- if anyone would botehr to look back at some of his speecjes in 2003-04 -- he has been consistent in that. THis year he has been more pointed, but back in his previous run he talked about Two Anericans and he even spoke to corporate leaders about the need for reform to incrtease corporate responsibility and accountability.

When I listen to Obama, I get the sense that he merely feels obligated to include "special interests" in his speeches, while he woulkd prefer to be muchj more general and focus on the so-called partisan divisions.

Edwards gets it that it is about class and systemic corruption and corporate power.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-04-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. DING,DING,DING, give that poster a cigar!
"Armstead" :Edwards gets it that it is about class and systemic corruption and corporate power.

EXACTLY!

We are as close to a class war as we could get, camouflaged only by the fact that Corporations have been so successful at dividing America, it is hard to see through the "fog of war", so to speak.

Look at New Orleans. Look at our inner cities. Look at the obscene profits of energy companies, the MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL-COMPLEX and utilities.

Bushco has served these interests, as their puppet.

What candidate is taking corporate dollars, while promising reform? What candidate is using smoke and mirrors and rhetoric to obfuscate the fact he takes money from insurance companies and wants to leave troops to die in Iraq?

Hmmm....tell me it isn't that "progressive" named Obama?

Alas, there is only one warrior on this field of truth.

John Edwards.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Lets see what tomorrow brings.....
I for one am looking forward to the debates tomorrow.

Tomorrow should finally focus some scrutiny on rhetoric versus action, policy versus promises.

Elections are like a mercurial flow; things can change very rapidly. Fortunes won and fortunes lost.

I'm betting things get tougher for Obama with salvos coming from Hillary and John Edwards. Perhaps, this will be his defining moment, or not.......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alteredstate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
46. For you:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
47. THANK YOU - and welcome to DU
You're damn right. We CANNOT afford to get it wrong this time. It's my feeling that if we do not take this country back from the power and control of the corporations and their lobbyists NOW - WE'LL NEVER GET IT BACK.

My favorite graph that illustrates your point fairly well (from opensecrets.org - it's all there):

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
61. Well Obama supporters?
Counter those facts regarding political contributions to your man. He is uncomfortably close to Hillary, and we all know what she is....CORPORATE DEMOCRACY!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
48. Hey, no fair. Your first post has all these recommendations!
:applause: :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. For which I am very grateful.
I hope to bring topical posts with insight to these boards. I won't always agree with everyone, but I am a Blue Democrat through and through , with a detestation of all things Republican, Neocon, Conservative and RED!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
52. Hear! Hear! Well Said.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

welcome to DU. Phenomenal post.

I am puzzled beyond belief that Obama's feel good,let's-all-get-along, there's no red states/blue states messages get any traction amongst Democrats after the disaster that is Bushco. The Chamberlain comparison is right on the mark. Why is anyone but bushbots throwing support behind one who wants to make nice with those who have brought America to the edge of ruination?

What I find ironic is that Obama supporters on DU don't display the folksy make nice attitude with Obama detractors on DU yet are all ready to follow someone who preaches democrats should play nice and smooth over differences with repukes.


IMO Edward's stance against corporate power is more important than the stance that he or any candidates make or have made about the war because the war is driven by corporate interests. If corporations weren't benefiting from it the US wouldn't be in Iraq.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
53. Just Found DU after 7 Years on the Internet ?
Edited on Sat Jan-05-08 04:14 PM by GalleryGod
Restaurants have menus because of an opinion piece like this...*












* Nice job. I think you're an Edwards operative (we have lots of operatives this election cycle.) You'll be watched closely by both the mods and Skinner SO.. Yeah, welcome to DU,too. Have a good time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. What a riot. You support a candidate that wants to make nice with repukes,
extending to them the benefit of doubt yet you don't shower Obama detractors on DU with that magnanimous spirit.:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. I read about people like you.......
Edited on Sat Jan-05-08 08:09 PM by ClericJohnPreston
Paranoia , I believe is the name of such libelous SLANDER "GalleryGod"!!!

You are a fool and probably breaking some board rule to make such an audacious allegation.


Of course, being in law, I have the verbal acuity to articulate a point, which is dangerous to those people whose opinions don't match my own.

If you want my posting bona fides, they are in this order:

1. Randy Rhodes
2. Malloy boards
3. Unfiltered News Board ( disaffected members of the former Malloy board )
4. Bill Maher's boards

You can find my posts under grammaton cleric ( someone here stole my name ) and Number Six and mookiemike,

Hello to anyone who recognizes me from those boards.

I thought I'd graduate to the highest level and make my mark here. 33 recommends on my first post should say something.

So, take your scurrilous attacks and lack of debating skills somewhere else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShadesOfGrey Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
55. Wow! Excellent post! K&R

:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Thank you....please see my response to the first paranoid poster of DU
I remember someone on the Malloy boards writing that there were a few of these type of people around.

I promise to respond immediately to their nonsensical attempts to "label" me anything, but what is evident by my posts....an insightful political junkie.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 07:29 PM
Original message
DEBATES
Watching these Republicans is like watching a Freak Show at the circus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. DEBATES
Watching these Republicans is like watching a Freak Show at the circus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Can't wait for the DEMS to debate in N.H.
With only 4 particpants, this is going to be like hand to hand combat.

May the best candidate prevail.

P.S. Lets face it, ANY Dem candidate is 100% better than Republican pond scum.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Here we go......
See ya after the debate to rehash the affair!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. First comment
Obama said Pakistan was a "DEMOCRACY".

Wha, wha , what?????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Debate seems stuck in mud
Thanks Gibson and the ABC CORPORATISM TEAM!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Once you get past the money....
is there any there, there, with Obama?

He outspent everyone, with Hillary next, in Iowa.

Comparing John Edwards to this group, he is the only one who would rid the Nation of CORPORATE SCOURGE!!!!!

How can anyone not see the real issues?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. EDWARDS MAKES THE CASE!!!!
Edwards juxtaposed to the stuttering Obama, proves who WILL ACTUALLY fight against the interests that threaten and undermine our society.

HAVE TO VOTE WITH REALITY IN OUR SIGHTS.

HILLARY JUST SAID OBAMA LOBBIES FOR THE DRUG INDUSTRY IN NEW HAMPSHIRE.

WELL, OBAMITES, ANSWER THAT!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. The picture couldn't be clearer
Edited on Sat Jan-05-08 11:14 PM by ClericJohnPreston
Starting with the MSM framing of this debate on CONTRIVED threats of National Security, right out of the Rove playbook, you know Edwards is right in defining "The Enemy".

It isn't the "boogeyman" of George W. Bushco, Inc., but the REAL AUTHORS OF WAR: THOSE WHO PROFIT FROM IT.

THAT WOULD MEAN: CORPORATIONS

Who would take on those interests? Hillary? She is Bushco Blue, Rethuglican-lite. Murdoch contributed to her campaign.

Obama?

He lobbies for the drug industry and takes their money. His contribution to dis-empowering lobbyists, is to sponsor a bill that won't let you eat lunch with them....sitting down. Standing is okay, though.

Edwards hasn't taken $1 from any corporate lobbyist.

If Corporations are the enemy and only one candidate opposes them ENTIRELY, and knows you have to fight them, NOT NEGOTIATE, Edwards is the clear choice.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-05-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. End of debate...
Hillary is Republican-lite.

Obama is more talk than action.

Edwards has the passion and knows who the real enemy is: CORPORATIONS.

But, the MSM will spin and marginalize him to force the candidacy to their Corporate candidate and I include Obama in that group.

I never had any faith in the sense of the non-political American. They will sit and watch from the sidelines , AND ONLY GET UPSET WHEN THE MORON YOU COULD SEE WOULD RUIN THE ECONOMY, FINALLY DELIVERS THE DEATH KNELL. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, BUSHCO.

THE AMERICAN ELECTORATE ARE PLIABLE, MALLEABLE FOOLS THANKS TO......CORPORATIONS.

I STAND BY EDWARDS AS THE ONLY REAL FORCE FOR CHANGE THAT IS MORE THAN TALK.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
71. Welcome to DU and THANK YOU!
That is exactly what it is about..GWB a "C" student is nothing more than a puppet, along with all the other CORPORATE politicians. I wouldn't be so furious, except the corporations are NOT doing me any favors, I WANT DEMOCRACY.......for the People by the People!
John Edwards is the right man for the right time......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-06-08 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. Thank you...
And lets keep the pressure on the Party for REAL change, not mere words.

Edwards is fearless naming the enemy. He reminds me of Bobby Kennedy with his passion against poverty.

I would like to see Hillary fade away and let the Electorate decide between Edwards and Obama.

Edwards clearly won tonight.
Hillary lost.
Obama just didn't make any obvious gaffes, which was good enough.

I hope John can close over Hillary in the next few days.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Oct 31st 2024, 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC