After this quote, Hillary is FINISHED as far as I'm concerned

[ButterflyBlood]

“If the most important thing to any of you is choosing someone who did not cast that vote or has said his vote was a mistake, then there are others to choose from,”

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/2/17/213744/100

uh, yeah OK. Well then fuck you. You ain't getting my support under any circumstances whatsoever.

At least Edwards can admit he made a mistake. I'm Obama all the way, but if it comes down to it, I'll be willing to tactically vote against whoever has the best chance of beating Hillary. Anybody But Hillary.

[BayCityProgressive]

1. It is such

blatant disregard for the base of the party. The people who will be knocking on doors and doing the dirty work for her. Fuck her. Why should I support someone who takes me for granted.

[dflprincess]

40. The left is always taken for granted

It's always assumed that we'll plug our noses and vote for any Democrat over a Republican - regardless of how Republican-lite the Democrat is.

What Senator Clinton is forgetting is that the active members of the party those, as you said, do most the dirty work tend to come from the left wing. She'll have to find her volunteers outside of the active party members if she thinks she's going to get anywhere.

I wasn't supporting her for the nomination anyway, but this quote makes me think I may just have to retire from politics if she gets the nomination. At the very least, I'll just ignore the presidential race - I might not even vote in that race if it comes down to a Tweedle Dum, Tweedle Dee choice. At least we'll have an interesting senate race in Minnesota that I can concentrate my efforts on.

[w4rma]

73. Not always. But, primarily by DLCers like her. (nt)

[mod mom]

90. I hope the Dems are waking up to how many on the left feel about Hillary and

her DLC cohorts. Just read comments at other political blogs, not just DU and you will find a groundswell of activity AGAINST them.


Who are the folks who are active in GOTV? Sure isn't the DLC types. Thank God Howard Dean knows it takes more than big bucks.

[elizm]

109. Apparently...

...Hillary doesn't think she needs the active party members. I guess she figures, like the rest of her supporters, that her MONEY is all she needs to win. I just said to someone yesterday that if Hillary gets the nomination I will give up on politics and I will not vote. Great minds think alike. :)

[job777]

154. Hillary a mistake

I agree with you she will only hurt our chances.

[caledesi]

180. But, the best part is that if Hillary is out than the repugs are stuck

with Guiliani who they really support only to beat Hillary. Joke is on them!

There are wicked arguments about Guiliani on freeperville. Course, they are neo-cons,. but hey were lamenting, get this..."oh why can't we have someone like Santorum or Allen?" They are hoping for Duncan Hunter.....yeah, right.

Yeah, that's how out of touch these freaks are. Hello? neo-conservatism is DEAD.

[high density]

148. Iraq isn't even a "left" issue anymore

I think most "independents" are with us on this issue.

[curiousdemo]

150. Man, You are so right...

She will not get my vote for sure. I will vote myself in before i vote for her and that's a scary thought.:silly: :silly:

[MessiahRp]

151. Not to mention a good third of the Republicans as well

Only the completely nuts right wing wackjobs believe in this war anymore.

Rp

[TheWraith]

170. Actually no, it's assumed that the left will look for any excuse to not vote Democrat.

That's why when our politicos are in trouble, they run to the center. The far left (which, whether you like it or not, includes almost all of DU) is considered too tempermental and picky to be a viable bloc, which is why we're not pandered to. In this case, Hillary thinks it's worth losing the far left in order to maintain some sort of image of steadfastness with the center. I think she's wrong, and it's going to bite her on the ass later, but the reality is that there's some truth to the idea. Look at the masses of people around here who go around announcing that they certainly won't vote for so and so because of one thing that they said, or did, or didn't say, or didn't do, at least not in just the right way.

The left is considered unreliable because so many of us demand that candidates do everything exactly according to our views. The description of so many moderate Dems as "Republican lite," and the famous DLC boogeyman are perfect examples of this.

[knowledgeispwr]

174. Thoughtful post

You pointed out the traits of the majority of us that post at DU.

Too many DUers do not realize that collectively, we are to the left comparatively of most of America and on some things far left. Our knee-jerk reactionism to some statements or votes certainly characterizes us as radicals and un-pragmatic at times.

[Mr. Ected]

118. Kerry's Support of the War Lost the 2004 Election For Him

A consistent anti-war stance might well have put Kerry in the White House.

Hillary will be equally plagued in 2008.

She has only herself to blame.

[politicasista]

131. No, he "lost" because of a vicious smear machine, lack of party support

and election fraud. If you think that any candidate would have done better under those circumstances then think again.


And plus, he didn't and NEVER supported this war.

[boobooday]

2. That's pretty dismissive eom

[OKNancy]

3. Why the outrage?

She said exactly what you want. Don't vote for her... except in the general election, of course.

[speedoo]

8. She has a LOT of work to do to earn my vote.

In ANY election.

I'll certainly be voting for someone else in my state primary. And if she keeps talking that way, I will have a lot of trouble ever casting a vote for her.

[oldtimecanuk]

16. I guess that question keeps popping up.... Do we really want another...

4 or possibly 8 years (which would amount to 22 years of Bush/Clinton rule? We need a new face/blood in the next WH IMHO.

ww

[speedoo]

41. My vote has nothing to do with that.

My problem with HRC is her vote on the IWR and her failure to own up to it as a mistake. I don't accept her position "if I knew then...". She SHOULD have known better at the time.

[zanne]

137. As I recall, WE TRIED TO TELL HER AT THE TIME! nt

[creeksneakers2]

115. Bush rule and Clinton rule

should not be placed in the same category.

[caledesi]

179. Agree. It's the same-old, same-old politics. Tired of it, and

that's why I am for Obama. College people are are young. They vaguely remember Clinton. Most of them come from single-parent homes. IF, and that's big IF they vote, Obama is in

Young, smart, eloquent, connects, energetic, from single-parent home, no political connections.

Obama is the American Dream that these repug talk about all the time? Just like Bill Clinton, he was the American Dream but he wasn't "patrician" enough and that is why the repugs hated him. Also, he was smarter than them and was always 2 steps ahead.

That is how I see Obama. How many people do you know that graduate from Columbia and take a community job for a paltry salary? Not many.

Also like Edwards, Clark, Richardson...we have a bunch of GREAT candidates.


edit: forgot stuff

[StateSecrets]

166. Amen!

Just take a look at her record in Senate; 'no record.' No Hillary.

[rodeodance]

12. chuckle. you are right

[ButterflyBlood]

14. How often do politicians say to vote for someone else?

Hillary now ranks with LaRouche among Democratic candidates in likeliness to earn my support.

[Hippo_Tron]

67. The only time I've seen it is on the West Wing

In the early primaries Bartlet is asked why he voted against the New England Diary Farming Compact and explains that he screwed over his constituents so that it wouldn't be harder for poor people to buy milk and that if they didn't like it they could vote for someone else.

The problem is that Hillary is just plain wrong about this.

[tkmorris]

86. That was a special moment wasn't it?

I felt like Josh did, watching him give that response. It was something like "Holy SHIT, where have you been all my life?". Of course, the fictional Josh got to go on and join the campaign and make it happen whereas here in the real world we're still waiting for a candidate of that quality.

Damn it all.

[truedelphi]

144. Wait a minute here - Are you saying that Bartlett is not in the

White House?? What happened?? Who got him out of office?

Wasn't he our most popular President ever?

[elizm]

110. If she doesn't want my vote in the primaries...

I'll be damned if I will vote for her in the general election.

[oldtimecanuk]

4. I have always agreed with this, and didn't want to see Hilary as..

as President, however if came down to Hilary or a Repug. obviously I would pick Hilary.... Richardson is the guy that I like these days, he has so damn much experience in so many required fields.... Of course, I realize that he probably doesn't have a snow ball in hell's chance of wining the nomination... But I can hope...

ww

[classof56]

9. Gov. Richardson was on NPR's Talk of the Nation the other day.

At that point I didn't know much about him. By the end of the program (I extended my daily walk to hear it all) I was/am a believer/Richardson supporter. He is honest, forthright, and speaks clearly and with common sense. Those reasons alone probably give him, as you said, a snowball's chance in hell of winning the nomination, but I'll keep my fingers crossed!

Tired Old Cynic

[Just-plain-Kathy]

76. I've been paying more attention to Richardson, I like him too. ....n/t

[tkmorris]

87. I have to admit

I don't know all that much about Richardson. I will say this though; I cannot for the life of me understand why he had the voting machines wiped in 2004. It stank of coverup. I could get past that but I would like an explanation.

[DemCam]

119. There was no coverup imho.

We did, however, have a very large group of active Dems who made election fraud their cause celebre...and many were new to politics. They saw malfeasance under every rock. There was malfeasance everywhere, but it was our normal ol' malfeasance that we didn't notice until after 2000. I would use the word "incompetent" here. We had new voting rules and many of the same old election judges who simply didn't comply. Hence many ballots were spoiled and questionable for a whole variety of nitpicking reasons.

Gov. Richardson is an unusually astute politician. He likes to "move forward" as he says. He knows which battles to fight and is a great fighter when the need is there. He did not want our state mired in a messy fight that could have caused notoriety but would probably accomplished nothing in the end. George Bush campaigned in the rural areas of our state that Kerry wrote off and activated the conservatives...as was reflected nationwide in the popular vote.

It was the right thing to do.

[Vickers]

5. "then there are others to choose from"

Okey dokey. :eyes:

What an idiot. She still doesn't realize how things have changed.

[illinoisprogressive]

6. good post and thouught provoking

[AtomicKitten]

7. I'll alert the media.

[bowens43]

10. Yes . having the integrity to stand by her actions

is certainly a show stopper.........

[cui bono]

47. So do you think the same about Bush standing by his?

Anyway, it's her dismissive attitude towards the voters. Plus, standing by her action to abdicate her responsibility as a senator and give up the power to declare war to Bush is not something anyone should be "standing by". So yeah, it's pretty amazing that even today she stands by that vote when it was the most reckless and irresponsible vote anyone could have made.

[sellitman]

54. Shrub does that too yanno?

Nothing eloquent about it as far as I can tell.

[TroglodyteScholar]

88. Is that what you call 'integrity'?

Are Bush's repeated calls to "stay the course" a sign of integrity?

[knight_of_the_star]

173. Brief history lesson for you

When JFK admitted that he screwed up and apologized to the American people in response to the Bay of Pigs disaster, his support went UP. Amazing innit? The American people actually LIKE their politicians to admit they are HUMAN and make MISTAKES and try to CORRECT them. It's the whole infallibility dodging and maneuvering in politics that people don't like. That she refuses to admit her mistake puts her in a similar class as Bush, who still says his biggest mistake was trading away Sammy Sosa.

[DURHAM D]

11. Love her resolve won't back down attitude !

...even though she gets pummeled here at the DU.

However, I recognize that most of the voting public would consider the folks (like me) who post here as a portion of the lunatic fringe.

[cui bono]

48. Ugh. My post #47 applies as a response to yours as well. nt

[moodforaday]

156. Resolve? Won't back down

You know you could use these very words to describe Bush as well. Or a determined burglar who returns three nights in a row to break into the same vault.

Resolve and "won't back down" are only as good as the cause behind them. There's nothing admirable about resolve itself when it's simply a synonym for being pigheaded. Like Bush. And apparently pretty much like Hillary.

[caledesi]

181. Please don't use the word "resolve"...sounds like * too much. nt

[tularetom]

13. Hillary needs to fire Mcawful, Carvill and the rest of her corporate staff

and get some new advisors who realize that Amurka has turned against * and his Iraq clusterfuck. As far as I'm concerned the only thing she has going for her is that the wingnuts really hate her even after she has spent five years sucking up to them.

[ktlyon]

126. Is Carvill a paid consultant or staff?

I didn't think he had any inside information at all.

[Catchawave]

15. Definitely .... if you don't like her quote, vote

for somebody else. How hard is that? So many to choose from that didn't vote for the ..uh...IWR. But are they electable? I get what Hillary's saying....bug off!

:rofl:

[ButterflyBlood]

20. The question is, why do we WANT someone who stands with voting for the IWR?

There is no reason progressive should support such a person.

[Catchawave]

33. I'm a moderate Dem, I'm over it.

Let's start kicking Republicans, not each other :toast:

[Hippo_Tron]

69. The Republicans are on the verge of self destruction

2008 may be the first time in over a generation that we have a real chance to get a President who is at least noticeably left of center. Some of us believe that nominating a centrist like Senator Clinton will completely ruin that opportunity.

When it's general election time I'll get behind whoever the nominee is because the GOP will always be worse. But primaries, in my view, are where you separate the great from the mediocre. There have been plenty of mediocre Presidents throughout American history and so I'm not convinced like many are that as long as we get someone with a D next to their name elected that great things will happen. Sure they will be better than the Republicans but I don't want to settle for the lesser evil if I don't have to.

[paulk]

125. that's an interesting point...

the thing is, I've never seen HRC as a centrist. Yeah, she talks the talk, like any serious candidate does - they always move toward the middle when there's an election coming up - but her voting record is solidly left of center. Most Republicans think she's some kind of socialist.

The same thing happened last election - we had a chance to elect a true liberal in Kerry - but, for many on the left, it was 24/7 piling on Kerry as not "left" enough - and for much the same reason - he'd been moving toward the middle in preparation for running for President.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

163. The times are too serious for mediocre politicians

I would like to see a candidate get up in the national debates and say, "I don't care what the corporate donors say. I'm for what the American people need, and what they need is an end to the Iraq War, single-payer health care, honest elections, living wage jobs, a better deal for small businesses and family farmers, and alternative energy. And if the corporate donors don't like that, they can go Cheney themselves."

[Morgana LaFey]

21. No, more like 'GET OVER IT' is what she's saying

and that sentiment NEVER goes over very well. Never.

[Catchawave]

36. I'm over it, so it doesn't bother me....

..but that's just me.

One thing I agree with Hillary about, move on :D

[fooj]

142. Kinda like Bill did in '92 in regards to Poppy (George HW Bush)...

Aren't we dealing with the same set of criminals all over again? Maybe "moving on" wasn't such a good idea. I sure as hell wish Clinton would have held Poppy accountable and not given him a PASS re: Iran/Contra. Gates, Negroponte, Rumsfeld, Cheney...the list goes on and on.

I respect your right to "move on"...

Unfortunately WE CAN'T because of unfinished business that should have been handled long ago. You see, accountability is key at any level of government in order for it to survive and function properly. You may be over it. I'm not. But that's just me...

[PassingFair]

172. It's a little hard to GET OVER IT.. when we are

STILL MURDERING IRAQIS BY THE THOUSANDS!

Get over it MY ASS!

We have illegally invaded and occupied another country.

Our children are DYING. They are BEING USED to guard
STOLEN natural resources that are ENRICHING OIL COMPANIES
while OUR economy is being bled dry.

And you and the Clintons want us to MOVE ON.

Swell.

The yes voting portion of the Congress should be BEGGING forgiveness!

[Chulanowa]

84. Especially in this case!

She's telling us "GET OVER IT!", while soldiers are still coming home in boxes, while Iraqis are dying by some abominable and uncounted number, in part because of HER vote that she still supports.

I won't be getting over it. Neither will all the dead.

[moodforaday]

158. That's a very thoughtful message

to be sending to people who oppose war, torture and the destruction of a great country. "Bug off".

[Laurab]

17. Her resolve, won't back down, didn't make a mistake

reminds me of someone....and it's NOT someone I want to be reminded of.

[oldtimecanuk]

27. Yep, and you don't have to name names for anyone to understand ...

that post.... Really, how hard is to say, hey I'm sorry with the information I had at the time, I thought it was the correct thing to do, but I screwed up?

ww

[Dammit Ann]

43. I'm with you.

Little too close for comfort, I think.

[Morgana LaFey]

18. Yeah, kinda tone deaf, isn't it?

I don't need ANOTHER reason not to vote for her, but she's talking about one of the main reasons people aren't happy with her. Now if she'd recant...but for some stupid reason she continues to be stubborn and bull-headed about that. So be it. LOSE our votes, you arrogant DLCer.

[msongs]

19. as IF you were going to vote for her before this??? nt

[stevedeshazer]

24. To be honest, I was on the fence.

She knocked me off with that one.

[Thickasabrick]

22. People who love her "resolve" or as I call it "stubborness" need

to remember that attribute is shared by the idiot in the White House, which is one of the reasons he is such a bad president.

I want no part of another President like that again.

[girl gone mad]

23. What bothers me most about her..

is that her actions and words now indicate her IWR vote was completely political. I know it was often said at the time, but I really wanted to believe otherwise. Her political ambitions cost human lives. That's disgraceful and disgusting.

[Buzz Clik]

25. Hillary isn't working on any of our votes. She's playing to the moderate right.

As the primary season starts to heat up, she'll start playing to the base, assuming we'll forget her wanderings. If she gets the nomination, she'll be scurrying back to the right.

[oldtimecanuk]

32. Maybe she is playing to the moderate right, but she is still coming ...

across like the person in the WH now. Many do not like this stubborn approach, where you can't admit that you made a mistake.....

ww

[Doremus]

85. Yeah, as if the moderate right wants her either.

That's the thing that frosts me.

Screw your base to suck up to the repug moderates who wouldn't vote for her if she pulled a Zell Miller.

Fuck her and her DLC handlers.

[fooj]

143. Rupert Murdoch supports her.

Hell, he gave her 50K. The writing is on the wall. Read it.

[ElizabethDC]

26. It's better than empty rhetoric . . .

she's being honest. Would you prefer it if she lied about how she felt about it? The war is Bush's mistake not hers. I'm much more interested in the candidates' plans for how to get us out of Iraq than getting hung up on a vote that happened several years ago.

[Kagemusha]

30. She's an enabler.

That's the proper term to use. She enabled and Bush ran with the conditional support as if it was an unconditional mandate. That's how Bush works and that wasn't news to anyone.

[oldtimecanuk]

35. Except for one problem that I see with her.... She is a Hawk... and

makes no bones about it.....

ww

[truedelphi]

145. her campaign manager has said that he is proud of

Her hawkishness - that you want someone in the White House who is strong, etc.

Saw/heard that on Chris Matthews

[phillysuse]

28. I think I would vote for Hagel before Hillary

At least, he thinks his vote for the Iraq War Resolution was a mistake.

In an interview in GQ Magazine, Hagel reveals that the Bush administration tried to get Congress to approve military action anywhere in the Middle East — not just in Iraq — in the fall of 2002. At the time, Hagel says, the Bush administration presented Congress with a resolution that would have authorized the use of force anywhere in the region:

HAGEL: inally, begrudgingly, sent over a resolution for Congress to approve. Well, it was astounding. It said they could go anywhere in the region.

GQ: It wasn’t specific to Iraq?

HAGEL: Oh no. It said the whole region! They could go into Greece or anywhere. Is central Asia in the region? I suppose! Sure as hell it was clear they meant the whole Middle East. It was anything. It was literally anything. No boundaries. No restrictions.

GQ: They expected Congress to let them start a war anywhere in the Middle East?

HAGEL: Yes. Yes. Wide open. We had to rewrite it. Joe Biden, Dick Lugar, and I stripped the language that the White House had set up and put our language in it.

Asked about his vote in support of the final Iraq war resolution, Hagel told GQ, “Do I regret that vote? Yes, I do regret that vote.”

[DURHAM D]

31. If he runs you won't need to vote for him - his voting

machines will do it for you.

[phillysuse]

34. Hagel will beat Hillary even without

Diebold.

[DURHAM D]

39. Don't really think you should be supporting a Repug over a

Dem on this site.

[phillysuse]

42. I don't really support Hagel but I do support his honesty

about making a mistake on voting for the Iraq War resolution.

I also support his current position on the War in Iraq.

[DURHAM D]

50. You said you would vote for him over Hillary.

I assume you are aware that he has voted with Bush in Repub lockstep 95% of the time. Sound good to you?

[incapsulated]

53. Well that's what happens when you vote on one issue alone

You could wind up supporting someone who will be against your principles the other 95% of the time.

Absurd.

[Divine Discontent]

58. I agree n/t

[cali]

51. Holy shit

you should post a thread in GD with that info.

[skipos]

62. Single issue voter, eh?

Hagel thinks Ben Nelson of NE votes too much like Kennedy. So either you are to the right of Nelson overall, or all you care about is Iraq.

[TwilightZone]

98. You'd vote for an ultraconservative over a moderate?

Interesting. Hagel is one of the most conservative members of Congress.

http://ontheissues.org/Senate/Chuck_Hagel.htm

One stance on one issue does not a liberal make.

[smoogatz]

29. The arrogance. Is if she's somehow the presumptive nominee, already.

She'll have to scratch and claw her way through Obama to get there. And if Gore jumps in, she's screwn.

[oldtimecanuk]

38. Not only Obama, but probably several others as we sprint toward...

the finish line.... I wouldn't rule out some others at this early stage yet either.....

ww

[Colobo]

46. Hillary is trying to be tough

But she is looking like an arrogant person who thinks she already won this thing.

[ShortnFiery]

70. Yes, it's not only the arrogance, but the refusal to take *any* responsibility for the IWR

Atomic Kitten was correct, in that, it was a cast of hundreds that resulted in the passage of the IWR. But HRC is the ONLY One Senator running for the Presidency who refuses to take any responsibility for this horrid act.

We already have the most arrogant leader EVER as President. Arrogance on those who which to take his position is unacceptable. I'm tired of the bravado and swagger from a number of candidates, but at least Edwards submitted his regrets. That's the mark of a GREAT leader, i.e., willing to be honest with the American People. That trait is sorely lacking in HRC.

[smoogatz]

71. Too bad for Edwards there are no do-overs when it comes to "preemptive

war." For my money, the mark of a great leader would be getting the fucking thing right in the first place. If that's asking too much, we live in some sorry-ass times, indeed.

[job777]

155. Davine right

I know,she acts like she has a divine right to br the candidate. Hate arrogance.

[incapsulated]

37. Oh, c'mon

Like you would be supporting her if she did make some bullshit "apology" (and, yes, I find these apologies bs).

I think she is showing a refusal to pander to people who have no intention of voting for her anyway.

I can't blame her and in fact I would prefer these politicians spare me their sudden "finding Jesus" come election time.

[Cerridwen]

44. Full quote - in context - now that it's too late to matter

"It was a sincere vote based on the facts and assurances we had at the time," Clinton said, according to an Associated Press account of her appearance in Dover, New Hampshire.

She then added: "if the most important thing to any of you is choosing someone who did not cast that vote or said his vote was a mistake, then there are others to choose from. But for me, the most important thing now is trying to end this war." (emphasis added)

[cui bono]

49. I was wondering about that. But still, she voted to abdicate her responsibility

and to give over her power to Bush. That's just stupid.

[Cerridwen]

52. She was in good company at the time.

Even many who post here have admitted they supported the vote/war at the time.

[Laurab]

57. It looks a little nicer in context, but still it's there

the vote wasn't a mistake...

I certainly won't write off anyone because of one quote, or one vote, and I'll do what I can to help a dem win the WH, but really, how difficult is it to say "I made a mistake"?

We already have a pResident who can't say that. It's a little scary.

Hillary is my last choice for a variety of reasons, but will get my vote if she wins the primary. I just can't help but shake my head at the fact she doesn't think she made a mistake, or if she does, won't admit to it. We've lived with someone like that for too long now.

[Cerridwen]

61. For me to admit it? Not too tough.

For you? Maybe, also not too tough to admit to making a mistake.

For a politician? Getting a little dicier.

For a politician running for President? Hmm, still dicier.

For a female politician running for President? Tougher? Easier? I don't have that answer.

Were you here (I forgot to click your profile first :D)) during the rw attack on Kerry for his vote? A lot of DUers were able to find nuanced discussion and understanding of his vote. Do we only support Democrats in the general and they're fair game in the primaries? We can slash and villify every Democrat we choose during the primaries and the run-up to the primaries appears to be the motto for many here. No nuance. No quarter given.

[Laurab]

63. I probably wasn't here although I've seen plenty of attacks on Kerry

and not necessarily from the rw. I was actually a Kerry supporter, but I think it was the loss of the election that made me finally register on DU. I often defended Kerry in threads.

The thing is, I'm not a one-issue voter, I thought Kerry had a lot going for him. Hillary...not so much. Also, the political climate at the time was a LOT different. Kerry had to be far more careful in what he said about his vote, since public opinion had not yet turned against the war. I think Kerry took strong stands on many things, and to me, he seemed to have fought for the right things for most of his life.

I really don't mean to villify Hillary - I just truly believe if she wins the primary, we lose. I believe it would get out the republican vote unlike anything else. She is HATED by the right, as much as we hate *, although in her case it's not deserved. I really just don't want to see that happen.

Hillary is my senator, and I have yet to see ANYTHING from her that makes her stand out, at least to me. I believe she's an adequate senator, nothing more.

Maybe you're right, maybe it's difficult for a woman candidate to admit to a mistake, but I think, in the long run, she'd be more respected for it. The majority of Americans (not to mention the rest of the world), believe the war was wrong - it's a lot different than when Kerry was running.

At any rate, I may well be proven wrong, and that's fine with me. What's most important to me is getting the republics out of the WH - if Hillary wins, I'll be fine with it.

[Cerridwen]

68. A reasoned discussion? On DU? Why thank you!

I mean that sincerely. :D

I've not chosen a candidate. I'm more an issue than a personality voter. I don't care if we run a Hobbit as long as they take care of the core values of what most of us believe are U.S. values; civil rights, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" (preferably not to the detriment of other people as we do so) and respect for the Constitution and its intent. A little bit of putting our history into context wouldn't hurt, either. But, I also know the reality of elections and campaigns. Image is everything. Sad, but true.

I realize that elections become competitions between various 'cults of personality.' That is what I responded to here originally. I'd like it if we discussed our favorite candidates based on their merits rather than focusing on name-calling and cherry-picking quotations that support our prejudices. I don't mean to say "can't we all just get along" but can't we at least leave the mud-slinging for the real opposition - republicans? Let's practice flinging stuff at their side for a while.

Many republicans hate anything even remotely "liberal." Senator Clinton is one of the many lightning rods they'll use to rally their troops. (sorry for all the cliches) It'd be nice if we didn't add to their rallying cries. I think both sides will be out en masse come the 2008 elections. If bush has done nothing else, he has grabbed people's attention and shown them that politics does, in fact, impact their everyday lives.

I don't know what would happen if she admitted she was wrong. I do know, she'll be vilified either way. There is no right answer for her. What will make some of us here happy will destroy her in other circles.

Finally, I still carry a small, warm spot in my heart for her. She was the first person to say on national television that there was a "vast right wing conspiracy." She was mocked and maligned for that, as well. Now we see she was correct. She was the first to say it "out loud." Too bad a lot of people didn't listen.

[eridani]

77. But you CAN vote for a hobbit!

Jay Leno thinks Kucinich is a hobbit, and he certainly has the best positions on all the issues. He made the remark in the context of how good the Dems are with affirmative action--in the presidential race, they already have a black, a woman a Hispanic and a hobbit.

[Cerridwen]

138. I must've seen or heard that.

I bet that influenced my choice of words. I know I like Kucinich's stand on the issues; maybe it was gurgling around in the back of my mind.

:D

[Laurab]

121. Well, thanks....

I really need to stay out of the "bash Hillary" threads I think - I used to get so mad at everyone else when they did it to Kerry, in particular, but any decent Dem. You're quite right - there are more than enough republics to attack, and for far better reasons.

I think my main problem with Hillary is that I believe the republicans chose her for us, far before we were ready to choose anyone. I don't have a candidate yet, either, although I am watching Obama with some interest.

You're also right about the "vast right wing conspiracy" - it was laid out in detail in a book I read I few years ago - "Blinded by the Right", which I think was written by David Brock. I know Hillary was ridiculed for saying it, but I also believed her at the time, even as apolitical as I was.

During the Clinton years, I was apolitical - it took * to get me interested in politics, rather late in life. I enjoyed the years of relative peace and prosperity under Clinton, and ignorance was quite blissful, but after a little reading, I couldn't ignore what this administration was doing to the country.

Your post made me aware that I was doing EXACTLY the same thing as people were doing in '04, long after the election, and I actually spent a lot of time defending Kerry and others. I appreciate it, and I think I'm going to try and stay out of the circular firing squad from now on. As I used to say in many of my posts - it accomplishes nothing, and there are so many truly deserving people in the other party to attack!

[Cerridwen]

128. Thank you for the discussion.

I just wanted to post a quick reply making sure you know I wasn't criticizing you in any of my posts. I'm frustrated with the atmosphere in Democratic circles - not just on DU - in which we devolve to some 3rd grade taunting on the playground. I enjoyed the fact that you and I were able to actually talk.

Here's hoping a couple more people will see our discussion and climb on the bandwagon - so to speak.

It's a pleasure to meet you.

:hi:

[Laurab]

168. Thank YOU!

I didn't feel I was being criticized in the least. I'm often frustrated with the taunting/attacking myself. I think we're in for a LONG primary......

Nice meeting you, too! :hi:

[MilesColtrane]

92. She introduced a bill on Friday...

"...to set forth limitations on the United States military presence in Iraq..."

No one knows what's in it yet because it's not back from the Government Printing Office.

But, really Hillary, if ending the war is the most important thing, why haven't you cosponsored Feingold's S.121 calling for redeployment introduced 6 weeks ago, or better yet, Kennedy's S.233 cutting off funding for the surge 5 weeks ago?

She is triangulating her position from others, not leading. Just as she did when she voted for the IWR.
And, she's arrogant to boot.

[Cerridwen]

133. She's a politician.

Of course she's arrogant. Many, maybe even most, of them are. It's damned near a requirement to survive in the political rat race. Some are better at hiding it than others and some will be judged such regardless of what they do. It takes a certain amount of arrogance to believe you should be the one person from your community/parish/district/state to represent your community, etc. It takes a certain amount of arrogance to go into a competition with the 'certainty' that you'll win. It's damned near required. You don't assume a position of leadership in this country without some sort of arrogance or chutzpah or audacity - call it what you will. Do you think Russ and Teddy don't have that quality? Seriously? So, please, look at the issues, criticize the legislation or votes, but really, do you need to add a slam about a politician's arrogance? Surely Russ' and Teddy's records stand on their own merits.

As to a politician 'triangulating'? Yeah, that's unheard of. (when did that word become so common in our daily language, btw?) Yeah, candidates running for President never try to be all things to all people. Has Russ declared yet? Has Teddy?

I've been up front with the target on my forehead. And I've been behind the scenes. It's a helluva lot easier to stay true to ones convictions from the back bench.

[TwilightZone]

99. Slightly different from the interpretation of the OP, hmm?

And, by "slightly", I mean "completely."

[Cerridwen]

135. I thought it interesting enough to investigate.

:7

[October]

117. It mattered to me

Thanks for posting.

[Cerridwen]

134. You bet.

I had a sneaking suspicion things were not as they appeared.

[asjr]

45. I will not write off Hillary Clinton.

She is one of the strongest, most intelligent, nerves of steel woman I have seen in eons. She went through 8 years of Republican slaps, inuendos, name calling, her husband having an affair and managed to hold up her head. I do not know who I will vote for yet. It is too early but I don't rule her out. I can certainly live with her as president and Bill as First Husband. I am sick of a corrupt administration that is killing us all with wars, cutting off money for needed projects and lining the pockets of their cronies. After the Bush administration Hillary Clinton sounds like Mother Teresa!

[ButterflyBlood]

56. Then why not back a candidate who doesn't give us more of the same?

Unlike Hillary the Hawk.

[Windy]

55. Hillary will be trounced in the debates before the primary

Her true motives and her corporate interests will be clear. (not that they aren't now).

I believe that Edwards and Obama (Gore and Clark if they decide to run) will walk all over her. Her positions are not strong and are based on a need for power as opposed to doing what's right for the country.

[JeremyWestenn]

59. After she gets the nomination be sure to remember saying that.

LOL.

[OneBlueSky]

83. not a snowball's chance in hell she will get the nomination . . .

the primary voters will put an end to her campaign right quick . . . particularly if Al Gore gets into the race . . .

[MilesColtrane]

94. I'd like to believe that there's no way she gets the nomination but,...

then again, I'm still trying to figure out how the hell we ended up with Kerry last time.

[Clarkie1]

60. She's trying to reframe the issue here...unsuccessfully

She's offering a false choice. It may or may not be the most important issue, but for me it's the decisive issue.

I will be casting my vote for Obama, Richardson, or Clark (depending).

[quinnox]

64. Nader might be running

It sounds like Nader doesn't like Hillary either, and you all that feel this way can vote for him. But I don't think his mantra of "no difference" is gonna fly like it did in 2000. He will get the same or less support than the miniscule amount he got in 2004.

[Colobo]

65. No need to vote for Nader

We just need to vote for the right candidate on the primaries... :)

[ButterflyBlood]

75. You got it

and the man to your post's left is exactly that candidate.

[bonito]

66. She wont make it

Way to much baggage for both parties to tear apart, anyone who doesn't see this is ether trying to fool themselves or others, if Hilliary were to win the primaries the republicans take the WH.

[Golden Raisin]

72. Newsflash! If there is so much antipathy

to Senator Clinton on a Democratic site like this (and other Democratic sites that I read), then she stands no chance in a general election where Republicans will also be involved/voting. And if you thought Kerry was swift-boated, just wait to see what they are going to do to Senator Clinton. It will make Kerry's experience look like Winnie the Pooh at a Tea Party. It's gonna be incredibly vicious and ugly. Personally, I was really offended by Senator Clinton's quote. If that's her attitude and she is willing to write off my vote so blithely, then she can bloody go to Hell. I do not expect an apology but at least admit the mistake. After the past 6 hellish years of an intransigent President who can't or won't admit his mistakes, I don't ever want another person in the Oval Office who cannot simply say, "I made a mistake and am moving on." She happens to be my Senator, and I did my Democratic duty, gritted my teeth, and voted for her, but frankly she hasn't done shit for downstate. Not sure she's done much for upstate either.

[ButterflyBlood]

74. That's why we need to nominate someone else! n/t

[incapsulated]

79. DU and Kos do not represent the rank and file out there

In the real world.

If they did either Dean or Clark would have been the nominee last time, not Kerry.

Look at the polls, Hillary is the preferred candidate of the majority of registered Democrats as of today. That may change but they most certainly to not dislike Hillary at all, quite the opposite.

I'm in NY too and her polls here are even higher, regardless of what either of us think of her.

[MilesColtrane]

95. "I don't ever want another person in the Oval Office who cannot simply say,..."

..."I made a mistake and am moving on."

Exactly, because if they can't admit, or don't see their mistakes, they will never learn from them.

...just like the Chimp in Chief

[TwilightZone]

100. If DU was representative of reality, Wes Clark or Dennis Kucinich

would have been elected president in '04.

[John Q. Citizen]

107. If DU was representitive of reality, then America would be against the war

and bush's approval ratings would be in the gutter.....

Oh. Yeah.

[Evergreen Emerald]

78. I don't have a problem with what she said.

Her past is her past. There is nothing she can do about it. If you are set on voting for someone who did not vote for IWR, there are other candidates...I am not certain what you want from her? On her knees begging to forgive her?

[DemCam]

120. But it still would'nt be enough, would it?

[BenDavid]

80. Why did you not finish the

quote? "But for me, the most important thing now is trying to end this war". Okay! And if all of you HRC "haters" do not believe this is part of a game plan set forth by her and WJC. All I can tell you "haters" is keep on hating and spewing your venom, and if truth be told, I personally think we are gonna win without you.....

[MilesColtrane]

96. One more time...

If ending the war is the most important thing, she could have cosponsored Feingold's S.121 calling for redeployment introduced 6 weeks ago, or better yet, Kennedy's S.233 cutting off funding for the surge 5 weeks ago.

[Greyhound]

81. Even the entire quote fairly screams her attitude toward all of the

"stupid little people", you know those that actually pay taxes, that she has to deal with. How frustrating it must be for one so high to have to stoop to justifying her God given right to rule over us.:eyes:

[ruggerson]

82. I'm glad she's not caving

the Republics hold her to a different standard. If she said her vote was a mistake they would CRUCIFY her for being a flip flopper.

She's doing the right thing. It will piss some people off, but she can't win the general if she apologizes.

[MadHound]

106. This isn't about caving or not caving,

This is about her inability and unwillingness to compromise, or even talk with, a significant part of the members of her own party. If this is the type of game she's playing within her own party, I shudder to think of the attitude she'll cop when she's President.

This sort of rigid thinking is more appropriate to Bush and the neo-cons. Sad to see it being demonstrated by a supposedly Democratic candidate. Not suprising mind you, but sad none the less.

[ruggerson]

111. So essentially what I'm saying

is that I'd rather she win the White House (assuming she wins the nomination) and promote 90% of our agenda by employing the strategy of not giving the Republics a foothold to crucify her during the election.

What you're saying is that it is more important for her to do the "right" thing while she's still a candidate, even if that means losing the general and giving us four more years of hell.

No thank you.

She can "apologize" for her IWR vote after she's president.

[MadHound]

116. That's the thing, she will NEVER own up to her mistake

And her high-handedness and unwillingness to work with members of her own party does not bode well for her career in office. It was her stubborness and willingness to put her own career ahead of the good of the people that made her vote YES on the IWR in the first place. Now she is exhibiting more of the same mentality. My own prognostication is that if she's president in '09, this bloody war will continue, for she will be unwilling to pull the troops out, unwilling to look "soft on terra" until after the '12 election when she has nothing to worry about.

And her admitting her mistake won't necessarily mean that she loses in the general. The people that will criticize her over such an admission aren't going to vote for her no matter what. But if she does fail to admint her mistakes, the left will indeed leave her high and dry, and then she'll be screwed. Like much of the Democratic party, she's taking the anti-war people for granted, assuming that they have no where else to go in '08. She's old enough to remember '68 when the same assumptions were made. Yet the anti-war crowd either went for Gene McCarthy or stayed home in droves, and cost the Democrats the Presidency. Same scenario is going to play out over Hillary unless she gets her shit together and starts working with the left instead of being so high handed with them. Especially since more and more people are coming out against the war.

[SaveElmer]

122. She is doing the right thing...

Not apologizing for doing her job...

She does not not need to tuck tail and apologize to satisfy the liberal blogosphere...it would be the exact kind of pandering liberals always accuse her of doing (no evidence provided other than she took a position they didn't like)...

She made a reasoned decision at the time...as she has said correctly on many occasions...

She has nothing to apologize for...the fault for the Iraq war lies solely with George Bush and the administration lackeys that lied for him...

[knight_of_the_star]

176. That is so much spin

They already have the wood and nails ready, they'll get her for something even if they have to pull it out of their asses. They smeared her for eight years while she was First Lady, and more since then. They will crucify her for something, trust me.

[Vinca]

89. Okay - I was planning to choose someone else anyway, but

the remark reinforces my decision.

[oasis]

91. Hillary displays empathy for those who have problems with her IWR vote. She then

suggested the obvious solution.

Good enough for me.

[Danger Mouse]

93. I wasn't going to vote for her anyway.

I mean, sure I'll vote for her if it comes to it in a general election, but I don't think she has much chance of winning.
In the primaries, I'll probably support Obama or Richardson.

[mconvente]

97. Well then Hillary, thanks for making it easier for me

well, like it wasn't easy already... No support to you warhawk

[Vidar]

101. I'm tending to agree.

[Nevernever]

102. Personally, I like my leaders to be a little SMARTER than Hillary.

If someone as out-of-the-loop and uninformed as I was in 2001-3 knew that all the US intelligence was cooked to support the illegal invasion of Iraq, WTF was HER EXCUSE???

She's UNELECTABLE, period. Just too darn STUPID.

[SaveElmer]

103. But, but, but I thought she was a panderer...?

I mean everyone here says that apologizing for the IWR is what the people want right? So politically speaking its what she should do..right?

[moblsv]

104. I don't agree

Her vote was based on the 'fixed' evidence. Given the information available, the mistake wasn't so much the vote for authorization, but the trust in the fucktards supplying the info. She didn't let us down, the theo-cons and the press let us down.

Hillary is not my first choice, but I sure as hell would vote for her over ANY Republican.

[SaveElmer]

105. The Great and Powerful Kos is throwin a temper tantrum...

Wahhh...Hillary isn't apologizing...wahhhh...I am the Great and Powerful powerful Kos...she is not obeying...wahhh...

I'm gonna make her nuclear!!!


:rofl:

Hillary's poll numbers will probably go up now!!!

[wyldwolf]

139. ...no... "radioactive." He's gonna make her radiocative...

...and THIS time he REALLY REALLY means it.

[SaveElmer]

147. Oh ....Right...

Radioactive!!!

He's gonna hold his breath until she apologizes too I hear!!!

[GeorgeGist]

108. Like Bushes...

Clintons are too good to apologize for their mistakes.

[terisan]

112. She is not expressing anger with you for not wanting to vote for her, why are

you so angry with her?

She said something similar when Bill Clinton first ran for president. ...........when issues were being raised about his marital fidelity.
She said something to the effect that they were not going to discuss their personal life and that it was ok for people to not vote for him on that basis.

I appreciate the the straightforwardness of it although I doubt it is politically wise. I believe voters like to be courted, want to believe their votes are always wanted.

Personally I very much objected to Clinton's war resolution vote at the time. I recently read the speech she gave at the time and noted that she did point out the limitations on the vote.

I think the 90-day withdrawal speech she just gave, and the statement about Bush ending his war before the end of his term, are more important that an apology or statement of regret about the IWR

[rocktivity]

113. Well, thanks, Hil, for giving me PERMISSION to vote against you!

STOP TRIANGULATING!
STOP TRIANGULATING!!
STOP TRIANGULATING!!!


:headbang:
rocknation

[creeksneakers2]

114. They can't say she's calculating on this one n/t

[stillrockin]

123. I....am....not...a...fan....

:P

[ktlyon]

124. I can appreciate her position

I would like to see her do more to end this occupation but I understand her position on the vote.

Here is what I think:
If the President comes before Congress and the American people and states unequivocally that that some emergency needs to be dealt with, I have to take him at his word as President that he has compelling evidence and he is taking responsibility for the action taken then out of respect for The Office of the President great weight should be given to what he says. As soon as the facts are proven wrong, a new resolution should follow that removes the power that was given. Our President should be trusted not to come before the people of the world and make stuff up or exaggerate the crisis. When this President lied, exaggerated and twisted the evidence to support a preordained plan then he has cheapened the office, the country and besmirches the reputation of our country. George made a big mistake and should do the proper and decent thing and resign, NOW.

[DuaneBidoux]

127. I thought Clinton already said that her vote was a mistake.

[cadmium]

160. she said recently when directly questioned

that if she knew what then what she knows now she wouldnt have voted against the war. I dont think she either said the vote was a mistake or that she regretted it. I could be wrong but this is what I have seen.

[CoffeeCat]

129. I agree...anyone but Hillary...

Hillary's latest shenanigans make me roll my eyes.

She votes for the Iraq war, and STILL refuses to denounce her vote. But--she
will criticize the Iraq war--when her words are meaningless and will have no effect
on the war. However, she's busy like a bee--shilling for BushCo's romp in Iran.

It's absolutely disgusting.

I'm sure--three years from now--Hillary will be talking up a storm about what
a mess Iran is. Oh please, spare us the hollow words.

Hillary was all-but silent on wiretapping, Bush's powermongering, Abu Grahib,
torture, election stealing, Bush bankrupting our nation, Habeas Corpus, etc.

She rolls over and allows these neocon thugs to have their way.

This isn't ANY sort of Dem leadership that I'm interested in.

Frankly, I'm surprised that any Dem would put her in their top 10.

[Irishonly]

130. Just Wondering

I personally do not know anyone who supports Hillary. Who are the pollsters talking to anyway? I don't know who I am going to support yet. It's far too early for me. There are candidates I like a whole lot better than others but I am still reading.

At this time, I don't want Hillary being the nominee but I will vote for her before I vote for a republican. Years ago, I was a die hard supporter of John Anderson and worked my fanny off for him. It is the last time I ever voted for a third party candidate in a presidential election. I paid the price for twelve years and it's not likely I will make that mistake again. I probably sound like a hypocrite but the worst democratic candidate will be much better than any republican. The Rove machine has succeeded in turning me into a polar opposite of a neocon. I never, ever want to see any of them in positions of power again. Our country will go further down the tubes.

[PhilipShore]

132. The DLC/Repukes bribed -- excuse me funded Hillary with a big war chest....

so it evens out for them: they can buy ads in swing states -- to make up for the votes that are lost to the progressive/liberals.

They are sophisticated, they probably figured out, with Dean a progressive Dem getting so many wins, that it is time to throw a monkey wrench in the process, and let the Repukes keep the presidents spot.

[Bitwit1234]

136. Seems no matter what Hillary does she can't please everyone

If a person does not want to vote for Hillary they can find myraid things they don't like about her. If you like someone else go for it, but the democrats that smear Hillary to me, are as bad as the republics. We get enough swiftboating by them without doing it ourselves. Go for your candidate and don't slam another democrat. I really don't know why people are concerned by her running anyway. She is a woman and the bunch of men in this country would never vote for her for president their little brains can't take the fact that a woman would be just as good a president as a man. After all look at the mess the men have made of this country.

[MilesColtrane]

149. There's a difference between smearing and criticizing a candidate.

Smears are usually lies.

Criticizing a candidate's voting record and campaign rhetoric are a valid part of the primary process.

A person that can't adequitely defend her actions and speech can't possibly hope to fare well in a general election.

Hillary has been involved in political campaigns for over forty years, and I'm sure she knows that whoever weathers the attacks before the primaries and gets the nomination comes out of it a stronger candidate.

[kaygore]

140. She's a shill like all those DLCers are

[wiley]

141. You're so silly.

You match the blind hatred of those who actually planned the war and did a good job of deceiving a lot of people. Don't vote for Hillary. Give Edwards a free pass for coming out late. And by all means echo Kos to rally support for Obama. Tired.

[AtomicKitten]

146. actually, I have no problem with her statement

It is the opposite of pandering. She says "I yam what I yam. Vote for me, or not."

What's there to argue with?

It doesn't appear you would vote for her anyway. So don't.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

152. It isn't always about Iraq and wars

just getting tired of all this war stuff. I think Hillary can do a good job on most issues regardless of how she voted in the Iraq war legislation.

[tabasco]

175. Just a minor issue like war. Yeah, no biggie.

What a cold and ignorant thing to write.

[mtnsnake]

153. You're just all pissed off because she's showing spine

as opposed to joining the group of hypocrites who think they can make it all go away by saying what a mistake they made.

Who do you think you're kidding. She'd be finished with you no matter what she did.

At least Edwards can admit he made a mistake.

He made no mistake. He's a hypocrite, just like Kerry, for waiting until they thought it was politically safe for them to say their vote was a mistake. Neither one of them made any mistake. They knew exactly what they were doing when they said aye to the IWR, just like Hillary. All three were very wrong for voting for the IWR, but at least she's not a wishy washy hypocrite like Kerry and Edwards are.

[cadmium]

157. One politicians spine is another's arrogance. This is open

to interpretation. It sounds to you like she is being honest. To me it sounds like she is saying -between the lines- that you have no choice.

[mzmolly]

159. Indeed there are others, and I have made a selection from the "other" category.

Grr.

[cadmium]

162. I believe she knows that

Edwards, Obama, Kucinich and Biden (if he runs) will split the "other" category. If she wasn't so certain she never would have made such an arrogant statement.

[mzmolly]

165. Bone headed move.

I was somewhat open to her previously.

[Hepburn]

161. I never liked Hillary...

...and this is kind of odd for me to not support a Dem ~~ well, Joe LIEberman is a huge exception to that statement when he was a Dem.

But Hillary always rubbed me the wrong way ~~ and she should not have...or so I always thought. She and I are about the same age, both of us are lawyers, etc.

But...I just cannot stand her and that remark pretty much nailed her coffin shut as far as I am concerned.

As for the upcoming primaries ~~ my rule is NEVER speak ill of a Dem (again LIEberman was another exception)...so I will be quiet about her, but I sure as hell will now work to see that the Dem candidate in 2008 is ANYONE BUT HILLARY.

[KingFlorez]

164. She doesn't want to be called a flip-flopper

She's playing it smart. She has said she wouldn't have voted for the war had she known what she does now and she's come out in favor of withdrawal. That way she can't be labeled a flip-flopper and at the same time be against continuing the war.

[Senator]

167. "Let the Conversation End"

Not that it was anythng other than a lecture anyway.

Or that Baktrak Ohboredom is any less of a simulation.

--

[Skittles]

169. she is just not getting the level of anger out there

not a good sign

[HughMoran]

171. Completely meaningless rehashing

C'mon, we've read 1000's of posts here saying the exact same thing for years.

Have some originality people - she is not going to say that what she signed onto back then was wrong - and technically she is correct.

[knight_of_the_star]

177. To all the people praising her "resolve"

Is it resolve when a drunk driver refuses to hand over their keys? Is it resolve when a wife stands by her hubbie even though he drinks too much and beats her because she thinks she can change him somehow? Is it resolve when an officer in the field refuses to allow his troops to withdraw and fight another day and forces them to die in vain? Is it resolve when you keep pounding your head against a wall even though the wall doesn't have any give because you know you were right to start to begin with?

Last time I checked all of the above actions would be considered insane by most people. HRC's REFUSAL to admit she made a mistake and regrets what she did is in my mind not resolve but plain and simple political cowardice. Anyone can refuse, like all of the above situations, to admit they are wrong because their decisions and poor judgment put them in the situation. It takes a LOT more courage to admit that when you're in a hole that it was a mistake to start digging in the first place. It isn't resolve or moral courage to ask for a better shovel, it's cowardice at best and insanity at worst. By failing to learn from past mistakes a person demonstrates they live with serious mental blinders, and failing to admit to mistakes is a sign of a person who doesn't learn easily from experience.

[caledesi]

178. Same here. She ain't no Bill. Oh well. as Bill Clinton said, 'in the

beginning fall in love with your candidatep;at the end fall in line.

I mean who do the repugs have that they honestly like? No one! The only reason Guiliani (pro-choice; pro-gay; gun control and a slew of baggage (on 3rd marriage after marrying his 2nd cousin for 14 years!) is that they don't want Hillary in the WH. That's the only reason!

He's liberal except for the war.

Run Obama Run!