Open Letter to All ... Dean and Kerry Supporters

[mzmolly]

By William Pitt: Taken from the archives dated ... Sep-02-03 06:45 PM



I stumbled on this while searching for something. Thought we could use a reminder today.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=266439

I just witnessed the following exchange on a thread dedicated to one of these two candidates:

---

Post Title: "Where are Dean's medals?"

No text in post.

Reply Title: "Where are Kerry's supporters?"

No text in post.

Reply Title: "Lurking - ready to pounce"

No text in post.

Reply Title: "Tapping foot.....waiting....."

Text in post: "And frightened to death!"

Reply Title: "Oh, BTW -"

Text in post: "are you old enough to vote?"

---

Am I an ass for publicizing this? Maybe. I posted no names nor the source of this, but savvy DUers can probably find it pretty easily. I will risk being labeled an ass, because this is important.

Let me explain something about DemocraticUnderground.com. I have written three books. I would have written no books without DU, without the prople here, without the wisdom and data to be found here. This says absolutely nothing special about me, but should tell you everything you need to know about the resource that is this place. I was a paralegal, and then a schoolteacher. I am nothing special. Whatever ability I do have, and the spirit I found here, motivated me to channel the essence of this place into books, into wider-world information that people need to know.

That is why I get nuts when I see this place tear itself apart, why I post every once in a while these tirade threads. Usually, I feel pretty stupid about it afterwards. Not this time. Not this time, because I have lost my ability to believe that the General Discussion forum is a place for data, discussion and debate. It has become a schoolyard pissing match. It has made politics more painful, if you can believe it. It has become a waste of time.

Read that exchange above again. That is a pure crystallization of exactly what has been going on here between a bunch of Dean supporters, Kerry supporters, and to a lesser extent Clark supporters. Some of these people are disrupters, obviously, but certainly not most. Most are you, either rising to the bait or baiting on your own. Either way, this exchange above is DU's General Discussion forum right now. If you doubt it, you have not been paying attention.

Here's the news: Dean or Kerry is going to get the nomination, with an outsider chance to Clark that (I think) gets better the more I think about it. Regardless, one of these guys is going to be the Man. Into that person will be poured, literally, all our hopes and all our sweat and all our prayers and the last, best home we've got to stop the bleeding that is killing this country.

We are going to have to work together. You are making that, every day, more of an impossibility, and that is a national suicide ride you are taking me personally along on.

I think people being passionate about candidates is a great good thing...actually, I think it is a mortal requirement considering what is at stake.

But this bullshit has got to stop.

Do something. Do anything.

Make this stop.

I tend to agree, we are committing suicide here every friggin day.

*edited title to remain within new user rules*

[Padraig18]

1. I agree, too.

:)

[Closer]

2. Nice try MzMolly

but I'm afraid things are too far gone.

There's a dearth of irony in that original post, too.

[Zynx]

5. You are correct. Fanatical loyalty expressed by a handful has led to

the current state of absolute hatred that exists today. I admit getting drawn in by it because it is so hateful. Today for the first time, I began to question whether or not we would unite during the convention.

[Closer]

6. No

look for things to get worse after Dean wins the nomination. There will be unity, but it will be against Dean. Just watch.

[mikehiggins]

49. How can you think that?

Once the nominee is settled, the game is over.

The new game is afoot.

If we do not win in 2004 there is little reason to hope things will be better for a Democrat in 2008, if there even are elections by then.

We have to win in 2004 so I'll support a god-damned ham sandwich against George Bush.

I do NOT beleive Dean will win but I'll work for him until the polls close on election day in hopes of somehow making it work.

[mzmolly]

7. I spotted the 'dearth' too.

;) Edited to correct spelling *sheesh* or should I say *shesh*

[HFishbine]

3. Apparently

Pitt was referring to posts in the GD forum. Now that we have the Primary '04 forum, all bets must be off.

[mitchtv]

4. me too

I have nothing good to say to any attacker. That is, when I can bear to read some of this BS

[JVS]

8. Maybe that is why Gore urged us to put aside our differences and back Dean

[zulchzulu]

10. Tammany Hall tactics are not democratic

The fact that Gore said that crap reminded me why I supported Bradley in 2000.

For me, to back Dean before I or anyone casts their vote in the primaries is nothing but pure arrogance, ignorance and lack of respect of the political process.

[mzmolly]

18. Sorry is this post about backing Dean?

I didn't see that.

[zulchzulu]

64. It's a response to the thread above

[spychoactive]

9. i agree

"one way or another, this darkness has got to give"

-robert hunter


remember kids, the tribes will be merging this summer...we must see regime change in 2004...WE MUST!

one love
spike

[madfloridian]

11. Good golly, he was right about it then.

Thanks for finding that. We need to stop spewing hatred.
:7

[WilliamPitt]

12. I was mostly talking to Dean supporters when I wrote that

Mostly, I was talking to people like you. You can cry victim or say 'Poop' or do whatever it is that you do, but the fact of the matter is that this thread was written expressly in response to the behavior of Dean supporters whose behavior on this forum has been gross. I like Dean a lot, in truth. He was really smart and funny when I interviewed him. A segment of his supporters, however, make me vomit in my own mouth.

"Can't we all just get along?" Sure we can, after the convention.

[HFishbine]

13. Who else's mouth

would one vomit in?

[Tatiana]

16. AFTER the convention.

Very important to remember that. Everyone has the right to work their hardest to make sure our party selects the best candidate to beat Bush*.

[betweenwars]

31. Yes and No

It's important to select the best candidate.

It's just as important to resist creating the frames in which a candidate will be placed by the opposition. Dean is "liberal." Clark is "DLC." Kerry is this, Edwards is that. You get my drift.

How does one get past this crap, and thus refrain from placing targets on the backs of all our candidates? Present data, not judgment words--be aware of where we get our information, qualify our points, and be willing to eat crow. (Heaven knows, I've eaten some in my day.)

Mitch

[Tatiana]

37. Well we do have a "liberal" candidate. His name is Dennis Kucinich.

But yes, I do see your point Mitch (and thank you for making it). We need to get past the labels, because most of the ones we use are inaccurate. Most of the candidates defy labeling.

[betweenwars]

47. Absolutely

He is, but his label in the press tends to be something like "fringe candidate," and that's too bad. I mean, geez, it's our job to determine who is and who isn't on the fringes.

So a Liberal is a Fringe, a non DLC moderate is a Liberal, a budget-busting, deficit building, unilateralist is a Conservative--

"And the left one is on the right and the right one is in the middle and the guy in the rear got drafted . . . "

That was done by Johnny Cash, right?

Mitch

[mzmolly]

38. The original post did not call for unity "after the convention"

:)

[mzmolly]

17. You appeared to address Kerry, Clark and Dean supporters?

Are you claiming today that Dean supporters are the only 'obnoxious' supporters here at DU?

Wow, what an amazing statement Will. Your reply was quite personal, un called for, and hypocritical IMO.

[mzmolly]

20. What did you mean by this?

Here's the news: Dean or Kerry is going to get the nomination, with an outsider chance to Clark that (I think) gets better the more I think about it. Regardless, one of these guys is going to be the Man. Into that person will be poured, literally, all our hopes and all our sweat and all our prayers and the last, best home we've got to stop the bleeding that is killing this country.

We are going to have to work together. You are making that, every day, more of an impossibility, and that is a national suicide ride you are taking me personally along on.

Have you changed your perspective since September? Seems it may be the case after your last post to me.

[Padraig18]

21. Sorry, MrPitt!

There's more than enough 'obnoxious' to go around; Dean supporters have not cornered the market on that behavior by a long shot.

[Scott Lee]

26. Our words are like psychic boomerangs, Mr. Pitt.

You being a writer, I'm shocked that you didn't already know this.

[JVS]

28. Very nice. A Dean supporter follows your lead and you insult them.

The nomination is worth fighting for. So let the fighting continue.

[babzilla]

50. of course you were mostly talking to Dean supporters

because the thread you were referring to was a discussion about Kerry's medal tossing episode.

If you take a look at the original Kerry medal tossing thread that inspired you to make a call for unity, it was a fairly tame discussion compared to the anti-Dean flame-fests that are sparking up with alarming frequency on this forum since Dean has lurched ahead in the polls.


Here's a little homeland security tip: keep your head in an upright position to avoid choking on your own vomit.





Medals don't impress me. Mettle does." -RUMMYisFROSTED

[Zynx]

51. Kerry supporters are fine ones to talk.

I got a post of mine deleted for saying exactly the same thing about Kerry supporters that you are saying about Dean supporters just so everyone knows.

[Romberry]

66. Remove the mote from thine own eye

Sorry, but way back when Dean was just getting started good the sniping started. It got to where you could not post anything positive about the Dean campaign without Clark supporters or Kerry supporters or someone's supporters jumping on to taunt and ridicule. I think your own partisanship has made you blind to the other side of the story. The ugliness shown by the other campaign supporters is why I have almost totally withdrawn from DU.

[mrgorth]

67. The convention

isn't until August. If we wait that long we're toast. That's the whole reason for the front loaded primaries.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

19. Spare us that tired old stupid and ignorant "everyone is a RNC operative"

BS if they don't like Dean.

[XanaDUer]

23. I do not support Dean.

I am not an RNC operative, a conservative, or a Freeper.

I am a long-time Democrat, and getting more liberal every year.

[Old and In the Way]

44. Wyldwolf, before you insult me.

From your posts, I think we are in agreement. I've made it known that I am a Kerry supporter on this board, although I'll happily support any Democrat that wins the nomination.

My rather light, throw-away here (and actually, I didn't read the post that this thread refers to) is: At some point, there will be a flame war between RNC ops who have all chosen a particular candidate to "champion". Unbeknowst to them, and the rest of the Duer's here, they'll have conducted their own flamefest.

Sorry if I hit your sensitivity button accidently.

[wyldwolf]

52. I won't insult you... and I'm happy your comment was more or less...

..sarcastic...

But there are people on this board - some even participating in this thread - who throw around the GOP/Republican/Rove plant or operative or troll bit any time someone doesn't pass their liberal purity test.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

15. *

Edited to take the higher road not taken before.

[wyldwolf]

22. Isn't this thread a rule violation, anyway?

Calling out another DU'er or something like that?

[mzmolly]

24. I am not calling anyone out. I posted a thread which I though made sense

'today' as well as in September. I never criticized Mr. Pitt. I wanted us all to remember his words of wisdom from the past. We have always been able to discuss old threads, I hope today is no different. Especially given the culture around here as of late.

[Padraig18]

30. The subject line may violate current DU rules..

I PM-ed you about it earlier... :)

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

42. Very good sense

I'm pretty new here at DU, still have a time finding my way around, but I think you've made a lot of sense with this thread post.

Prior to the past week or so I would occasionally come in and read without posting, and the tone on some threads really got to me. I'll admit that of the few posts I've made I haven't been totally innocent.

It's as though some people just aren't happy unless they can push buttons and get a rise. I'm not immune to that. Don't think anyone is totally.

Too bad the whole thing can't be solved by turning a spigot...but I think we all know it can't.

Peace

[ibegurpard]

25. Where would you get the idea that this was calling out another DUer?

She found a thread calling for unity that was written by a DUer that many people respect.

[Scott Lee]

27. Paranoia fueled by desperation.

Their candidate(s) are losing. It's an obvious gut reaction.

[madfloridian]

29. Not really, the post was very nice.

Just calling for unity.

[sandnsea]

32. Call for unity #3,487,389

They always come when Dean's having a bad day. We should start running a pool on how many minutes it'll take to get a unity thread whenever Dean stumbles.

[XanaDUer]

36. No, sand

It's call-for-unity post # 3,487,390.

[mzmolly]

40. Perhaps Kerry had a bad day when Pitt wrote this?

This is not about Dean having a bad day. In fact, Dean is having a good day, he's ahead in the polls in spite of the wishes that he would not be post saddam capture. :hi:

[Tatiana]

33. I'm not buying this.

This whole "attack Will Pitt" mentality that seems to be prevalent among Dean's (and no one else's but Dean's) supporters. Let's be real, shall we?

Take every single thing Will has written about Kerry and substitute Dean's name. Why, Will might be a candidate for the Pulitzer then! You attack the man because he has a voice, he is popular, he is talented, and he also happens to like Kerry for President instead of Howard Dean.

Get over it! Why is it so hard for you all to accept that 73% of Democrats don't want him as the nominee? We want someone else. I accept the fact some people think Clark is a Republican. I accept the fact that despite spending his life towards making your life and mine better, Kerry will not get a fair shake because of one vote, one judgment in error he made.

Dean is not entitled to the nomination. He'll have to work for it. And he'll have to face challenges from the rest of us who want to field another candidate. That's life. Deal with it.

But these attacks on Will... man, they are repulsive. I've been at this board almost since the beginning. I remember before anyone knew who Howard Dean was, before there was a Dean for America, there was a William Rivers Pitt who worked and researched tirelessly to expose the slim shadyness of this administration. He was there giving us a voice. I remember logging on to his website and reading those essays that really expressed the fear, the disappointment, the ANGER that most Americans were going through.

And now y'all want to piss on him cause he has a brain, thinks for himself and doesn't support Howard Dean. Will has done more for our cause than most of you ever will. Disagree with him? Fine. I do too. But I respect who he is, what he's done for Democrats, and I'll be damned if some haters are going to make him out to be some type of freeper troll.

[ibegurpard]

34. How was this an attack on Will Pitt?

:shrug:

[mzmolly]

35. Attack on Will Pitt?

Will reminded us of the real battle back in September and I appreciated that.

[Tatiana]

41. Perhaps that wasn't your intention.

But that was my interpretation, especially based on responses calling Will a hyprocrite (later edited).

If I offended, I'm sorry.

[mzmolly]

43. You'd have to read the slam against me personally that preceeded that

reply. That is what I was referring to, not the original post.

[HFishbine]

39. The Pitt Paradox

I too read "those essays that really expressed the fear, the disappointment, the ANGER that most Americans were going through."

Then I discovered a candidate who validated those views and stood up to Bush. I've been a Dean supporter since. Kerry never convinced me that he shared or even understood the things Pitt was writing about.

[Tatiana]

45. And that's absolutely fair.

I'm glad you found your candidate.

But I don't simply want those views "validated." I expect more of my candidate. I want policies to be implemented and I want the direction of this country to be CHANGED. And, above all, I want someone who will beat the sh*t out of Bush come November. Sorry that Kerry never convinced you. He's convinced me he shares our concerns and that he understands them, it's just not enough for me, personally.

And none of this means I won't vote for Dean if he's the nominee or anything like that. I would, in a heartbeat. I voted for Gore and I was a huge Bradley supporter.

[WilliamPitt]

46. So that's your experience, and I respect that

I just don't agree with it. Sue me.

[HFishbine]

48. Sue you? I want to shake your hand.

Will Pitt opened my eyes. A great writer of political commentary will have his reader thinking "Yes, those are the words I was looking for."

I was simply noting the irony of the fact that my extreme discomfort with the Shrub was explained and validated, to no small degree, by Pitt's writing, and yet, armed with many of his arguments, I went to Howard Dean, while Pitt went to Kerry. It's ironic, that's all.

To Tatiana: I'm convinced that Dean is going to change the direction of this country, and I think he'll beat the shit out of Bush. I have a hard time undertanding how, if Kerry can't compete with Dean (and he may yet) he is going to beat the shit out of Shrub. Indeed, he has not convinced me, but he's still near the top of my list and I'd donate to, campaign for, and vote for him if he gets the nomination.

[Jacobin]

54. Greatest Irony of ALL

Pitt co-authors book the theme of which is that there are no WMD in Iraq, prior to the war.

Kerry votes for IWR.

Pitt supports Kerry.

Confused?

(not buying all the excuses Kerry gives for being "fooled" etc. 160 democrats voted against the IWR and he wasn't among them)

[WilliamPitt]

57. Well, that's easy

There are, perhaps, fifty thousand other issues of incredible importance besides the war. The war is not the only issue I care about. Kerry matches my criteria in virtually all of those other issues.

[babzilla]

58. is the massachusetts thing

one of those incredibly important issues?

[WilliamPitt]

59. Having the guy for 20 years as a Senator

has a definite effect on my thinking, yes. Is that a problem?

[mzmolly]

60. Not if you admit your intentions when you call for unity.

Seems unity only pertains when anyone dare question your beloved Senator.

[Tatiana]

61. Ahhhhhhhhhhh

The reason behind this post. A roundabout way to bash Will, as I suspected.

[babzilla]

63. no problem

just an observation. It is good that he has served you well.

[Raya]

53. DEAN has BROKEN all the RULES: War Against Party, Reject Campaign Finance

[ibegurpard]

55. Whoa I just got whiplash from that non-sequitor

n/t

[Scott Lee]

56. Dean's sorry. He'll give back all that money immediately.

So that George Bush can really really outspend him.

Thanks very much for your tireless efforts on behalf of Mr. Bush.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

62. You're still here?

I'm impressed!

[spychoactive]

65. it's ok to disagree, remember?

today while watching a pile of kids i was reminded of the DU in a way...they were running around and jumping and fighting and laughingand playing and i would say to them things like "clean up those toys before you guys get more out!"...no response...but i could almost whisper: "anyone want some ice cream?"...and they'd stop in their tracks and run to me screaming "ice cream! ice cream!"

hair-pulling, selective hearing, and over-enthusiastic responses aside, i'll take this playroom over anything else out there

hey i'm a kucinich kid, and believe me if he was ahead in the polls i'd want most of the discussion re: who the dem candidate should be to be kept a minimum as well, because my guy was right where he belonged...an old political trick, and a good one might i add!

one love
spike