'Shooting and Crying'

[shira]

Yossie: "I am a platoon sergeant in an operations company of the Paratroops Brigade. We were in a house and discovered a family inside that wasn't supposed to be there. We assembled them all in the basement, posted two guards at all times and made sure they didn't make any trouble. Gradually, the emotional distance between us broke down - we had cigarettes with them, we drank coffee with them, we talked about the meaning of life and the fighting in Gaza. After very many conversations the owner of the house, a man of 70-plus, was saying it's good we are in Gaza and it's good that the IDF is doing what it is doing.

"The next day we sent the owner of the house and his son, a man of 40 or 50, for questioning. The day after that, we received an answer: We found out that both are political activists in Hamas. That was a little annoying - that they tell you how fine it is that you're here and good for you and blah-blah-blah, and then you find out that they were lying to your face the whole time.

-----

What annoyed me was that in the end, after we understood that the members of this family weren't exactly our good friends and they pretty much deserved to be forcibly ejected from there, my platoon commander suggested that when we left the house, we should clean up all the stuff, pick up and collect all the garbage in bags, sweep and wash the floor, fold up the blankets we used, make a pile of the mattresses and put them back on the beds."

-----

Yossi: "There was one day when a Katyusha, a Grad, landed in Be'er Sheva and a mother and her baby were moderately to seriously injured. They were neighbors of one of my soldiers. We heard the whole story on the radio, and he didn't take it lightly - that his neighbors were seriously hurt. So the guy was a bit antsy, and you can understand him. To tell a person like that, 'Come on, let's wash the floor of the house of a political activist in Hamas, who has just fired a Katyusha at your neighbors that has amputated one of their legs' - this isn't easy to do, especially if you don't agree with it at all. When my platoon commander said, 'Okay, tell everyone to fold up blankets and pile up mattresses,' it wasn't easy for me to take. There was lot of shouting. In the end I was convinced and realized it really was the right thing to do. Today I appreciate and even admire him, the platoon commander, for what happened there. In the end I don't think that any army, the Syrian army, the Afghani army, would wash the floor of its enemy's houses, and it certainly wouldn't fold blankets and put them back in the closets."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072475.html

[burythehatchet]

1. I heard the IDF parachuted

kittens and bunnies into the bombed out neighborhoods to keep the corpses company.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[burythehatchet]

3. was the t-shirt story a hoax?

[Sezu]

4. Not that I know of...what about the bunnies and kittens? n/t

[burythehatchet]

6. I hadn't heard about the Passover blood. Tell me more. n/t

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. The t-shirts are just a joking matter for you, though...

As exhibited in this post:

'WTF is WRONG with you? Don't you wanna be part of the gang? I bet you own a t-shirt that kills Palestinian babies with each wearing. Naughty naughty.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x266504#266840

[shira]

5. no hoax, pretty disgusting stuff there with the t-shirts

but this counter-evidence from others in the IDF better contextualizes what went on in Gaza, don't you think? Do you think Israelis who read and watch these recent news reports are 'fooled' by alleged IDF coverups and don't have a clue as to what really happens in the IDF? You think they don't mind if the IDF really, really sucks and is uniquely evil? Remember, nearly every Israeli serves in some capacity and knows of close family and friends who can be called up for combat at a moment's notice. It's not exactly like the USA.

At least this report isn't rumor and hearsay like the 2 biggest charges reported in the last week about an admittedly accidental killing and orders to shoot a woman continuing to approach IDF soldiers after being told to stop (it's not even clear a shot was fired according to this hearsay). Pretty weak stuff that hardly demands an external probe, don't you think? Imagine if weak allegations like this were brought up against any other military in the world. You think it would send as many shock waves as this story?

It's crap allegations like these against Israel that tell more about the accusers than about Israel.

JihadWatch rumors and allegations are just as bad.

[burythehatchet]

8. When it comes to war crimes and atrocities, I try to get my info from

third parties, mostly from Europe and the UK. But least of all, apologists on discussion boards. If I lent any credence to what you just posted, for example, I might walk away thinking that there were two incidents that unworthy of investigation. That would be quite laughable when there are plenty of reports from ICRC and other independent sources documenting war crimes including the use of illegal phosphorus bombs. So, no, these are not"crap allegations", these are serious war crimes that will as always go unpunished because of US complicity. But the rest of the world knows and the rest of the world simmers.

[shira]

10. did you read up on the 2 main allegations against the IDF from the past week?

One allegation based on hearsay, not an eyewitness account, is about an accidental killing. How is an accidental killing a warcrime?

The other major allegation is also based on hearsay, where the Palestinian woman was described as approaching IDF soldiers after being commanded to stop. And although the order was to shoot, there is nothing from that hearsay which would lead anyone to believe a shot was actually fired at the woman.

Did you actually read the original stories on this?

[burythehatchet]

12. I'm sorry, I cannot take your comments seriously enough to debate. 'nite

[Sezu]

14. IOW you can't accept that what has been alleged may not be

true and you are quite prepared right now to ignore any other evidence than that which points to guilt. Seems kinda inappropriate to me but hey, if you hate Israel that much go for it.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. The other evidence consists of 'but the soldiers are lying!!! They hate Israel!!!'

If you have any credible evidence other than that and the bullshit coming from CAMERA, feel free to share it....

[bemildred]

19. Well, I'm just shocked at the way people turn on these soldiers in the blink of an eye.

One wrong word and you go from heroic fighter to liar, bad-apple, and tool.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Yeah, it's a quick slide down and off the ladder of adulation n/t

[Scurrilous]

24. No pizza for them! n/t

[Sezu]

41. Yeah that's what I thought. You HAVEN'T looked at any of the

other evidence but immediately consign it to the scrap heap because you just KNOW it's BS because it goes against your putrid hatred of Israel, the IDF and anyone who points out your didgusting biases.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. You haven't supplied any credible evidence yet, though...

All you do is screech abusive at anyone who doesn't 110% support everything Israel does, no matter what it is. btw, I don't hate Israel and the way you and one or two others pop up all the time frothing at the mouth and telling others they *hate Israel* is just as idioticic as when I was on another board and conservatives would screech the *you hate the US* line at anyone who dared criticise the invasion of the US.

[shira]

17. here's the original damning evidence against the IDF - main 2 allegations

Major allegation #1:

"The testimonies include a description by an infantry squad leader of an incident where an IDF sharpshooter mistakenly shot a Palestinian mother and her two children. "There was a house with a family inside .... We put them in a room. Later we left the house and another platoon entered it, and a few days after that there was an order to release the family. They had set up positions upstairs. There was a sniper position on the roof," the soldier said.

"The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

============================

Major allegation #2:

"One of our officers, a company commander, saw someone coming on some road -- a woman, an old woman. She was walking along pretty far away, but close enough so you could take out someone you saw there. If she were suspicious, not suspicious -- I don't know. In the end, he sent people up to the roof, to take her out with their weapons. From the description of this story, I simply felt it was murder in cold blood."

According to the Haaretz transcript, the squad leader protested the rules of engagement, which he said allowed soldiers to fire on Palestinian homes without giving residents a warning. After the rules were changed, his soldiers complained that "we should kill everyone there . Everyone there is a terrorist."

According to Haaretz, the squad leader went on to say that, "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."

None of the Israeli soldiers quoted in the Haaretz articles admitted to taking part first-hand in the killing of Palestinian civilians, but the published accounts illustrate some of the soldiers' confusion and disagreements about the rules of engagement during an operation in which enemy combatants were often indistinguishable from civilians.

Responding to the squad commander's account of the shooting of the elderly Palestinian woman, one of his fellow soldiers replied, " descriptions are accurate, But it's possible to understand where this is coming from. And that woman, you don't know whether she's ... she wasn't supposed to be there, because there were announcements and there were bombings. Logic says she shouldn't be there. The way you describe it, as murder in cold blood, that isn't right. It's known that they have lookouts and that sort of thing."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/03/19/israel.gaza.idf/index.html

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Why bring antisemitic comments into this when no-one but you has said anything antisemitic?

'No doubt you think they were....'gathering blood for the Passover bread'?? Y'know, it's really disgusting how you accuse another DUer of antisemitism at the drop of a hat and bring antisemitic memes into a thread that contained no antisemitism at all....

[Ken Burch]

28. Nobody is criticizing what the IDF has done in Gaza out of antisemitism

And there's nothing in this that's anything whatsoever like the "blood libel". You should be ashamed to invoke such things.

[Sezu]

42. The point is that it IS INDEED a blood libel the way the story

has spiraled out of control even in light of the relatively unreported news that most of the accusers were simply repeating rumours and had not even BEEN in Gaza. You see if you continue on like none of THAT is relevant then you are in effect comtributing to a modern blood libel. You and others can rail agaisnt the charge if you wish but it's as plain as the nose on your faces that it can be little else when you all refuse to even ACKNOWLEDGE the other evidence and call for, at a minimum, a calm in the accusations until the whole story is out rather than repeating the libel willy nilly.

Now it may well be that the accusations were and will be proven true. I find it doubtful given the appalling lack of relevant info...who where when why etc. NONE of this has been revealed yet you and others can baldly get behind the blood accusations without that proof.

If it is proven I will gladly join the lynch mob but NOT UNTIL I see more than paltry accusations and the accompanying bloody chorus. Shame on all that can convict before a trial and that goes especially for those of your fellows who spout on about whitewashing all the time. If that ain't biased claptrap nothing is.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Okay, that's the most idiotic post I've read in a while here...

You don't even know what blood libel is. For anyone else who doesn't know, blood libel is false accusations that Jews use human blood in rituals, and that the killing of children (the Christians claimed Christian children were preferred) was to blame on Jews. Blood libel led to not only persecution against Jews, but led to the deaths of many innocent Jews. Blood libel is NOT criticism of the IDF, nor is it wanting an investigation of the allegations over what was done in Gaza...

If it is proven I will gladly join the lynch mob..

Well, it'll be a lynch-mob consisting of just you, but let's be honest here. Even if CAMERA took out huge billboard signs showing *proof* that these allegations are true, you'd call them liars and haters of Israel and antisemites...

Anyway, what would constitute *proof* to you? I'm curious seeing as how I've just spotted you in another thread where you have a completely different set of standards when it comes to allegations made against Arabs. This is what you had to say about the allegations and those who made them: 'So what...you think they made it up?'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=267066&mesg_id=267101

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sezu]

48. How about a NAME or a specific PLACE or a TIME or an

second verifiable SOURCE? You know, the stuff that usually constitutes REAL evidence as opposed to rumour and hearsay. Or do you consider something as important as that to be "idiotic?" Because it appears you do. yes it appears from what you say that indeed you do. You make Postmodern look absolutely sane when it comes to real truth.

[jeff30997]

7. I've read the whole article.

And I would advise peoples to do the same to put this back in it's context.

Here's a part that you conveniently omitted (The last snip):

...

a pile of the mattresses and put them back on the beds."

Zamir: "What do you mean? Didn't every IDF unit that left a house do that?"

Yossi: "No. Not at all. On the contrary: In most of the houses graffiti was left behind and things like that."

Zamir: "That's simply behaving like animals."

Yossi: "You aren't supposed to be concentrating on folding blankets when you're being shot at."

Zamir: "I haven't heard all that much about you being shot at. It's not that I'm complaining, but if you've spent a week in a home, clean up your filth."

Aviv: "We got an order one day: All of the equipment, all of the furniture - just clean out the whole house. We threw everything, everything, out of the windows to make room. The entire contents of the house went flying out the windows."

Yossi: "There was one day when a Katyusha, a Grad, landed in Be'er Sheva and a mother and her baby were moderately to seriously injured. They were neighbors of one of my soldiers.

...

And the tittle of your post is misleading.The original tittle is referring to this part of the

article:

"Zamir: "I think it would be important for parents to sit here and hear this discussion. I think it would be an instructive discussion, and also very dismaying and depressing. You are describing an army with very low value norms, that's the truth ... I am not judging you and I am not complaining about you. I'm just reflecting what I'm feeling after hearing your stories. I wasn't in Gaza, and I assume that among reserve soldiers the level of restraint and control is higher, but I think that all in all, you are reflecting and describing the kind of situation we were in.

"After the Six-Day War, when people came back from the fighting, they sat in circles and described what they had been through. For many years the people who did this were said to be 'shooting and crying.' In 1983, when we came back from the Lebanon War, the same things were said about us. We need to think about the events we have been through. We need to grapple with them also, in terms of establishing a standard or different norms "

[burythehatchet]

9. You have a stronger stomach than I. The content of the OP was enough

for me to reject it out of hand.

[jeff30997]

11. That's the catch.

The original article is very critical of what the IDF is doing to the Palestinians unlike the pieces

taken out of context and pasted in the OP.

[shira]

13. when the 2 main allegations against the IDF are rumors, and not warcrimes at all

it appears the only real context missing is what was contained in the OP.

[jeff30997]

15. Rumors ?

Same article:

"One of our officers, a company commander, saw someone coming on some road, a woman, an old woman. She was walking along pretty far away, but close enough so you could take out someone you saw there. If she were suspicious, not suspicious - I don't know. In the end, he sent people up to the roof, to take her out with their weapons. From the description of this story, I simply felt it was murder in cold blood."

Zamir: "I don't understand. Why did he shoot her?"

Aviv: "That's what is so nice, supposedly, about Gaza: You see a person on a road, walking along a path. He doesn't have to be with a weapon, you don't have to identify him with anything and you can just shoot him. With us it was an old woman, on whom I didn't see any weapon. The order was to take the person out, that woman, the moment you see her."

[shira]

20. rumor and hearsay, read that first line yourself

"One of our officers, a company commander, saw someone coming on some road,.."


That is not a firsthand eyewitness account. He ends it with this:


"From the description of this story, I simply felt it was murder in cold blood."


Rumor and hearsay.

[jeff30997]

27. Yeah, right:

"With us it was an old woman, on whom I didn't see any weapon."

The guy was there.

Rumor and hearsay my ass.

[shira]

44. yes, that's right.........why would the officer say:

"From the description of this story, I simply felt it was murder in cold blood."

Why is his testimony based on a description of this story? Makes no sense if he was there and saw it for himself.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Haven't you got the memo yet? When bad things are done to Palestinians by the IDF it's a *rumour*

Yet if Palestinians do bad things to Palestinians, or Palestinians do bad things to Israelis, it's always a *fact*! Pretty bizarro and lopsided formula, but some folk seem to cling to it with a real glee...

[Violet_Crumble]

21. I'd also urge everyone to read the entire article and not just the selective snippets in the OP...

I knew even before I clicked on the link that it wouldn't contain the 'oh, but the brigade I'm in even did the housework and folded the laundry of the house we were invited to stay in by the grateful Gazans we were rescuing' sort of stuff. The title 'shooting and crying' pretty much was a huge hint in that regard...

[Idealism]

26. Question:

Regarding this paragraph:

Yossi: "There was one day when a Katyusha, a Grad, landed in Be'er Sheva and a mother and her baby were moderately to seriously injured. They were neighbors of one of my soldiers. We heard the whole story on the radio, and he didn't take it lightly - that his neighbors were seriously hurt. So the guy was a bit antsy, and you can understand him. To tell a person like that, 'Come on, let's wash the floor of the house of a political activist in Hamas, who has just fired a Katyusha at your neighbors that has amputated one of their legs' - this isn't easy to do, especially if you don't agree with it at all.

How did the soldier know the mother and her baby were his neighbors? In the US, names never get released for incidents that just took place for multiple reasons- is it not the same in Israel?

And for the record, Yossi generalizes the "Hamas political activist" to be a member of the Qassam brigades. They are two different entities. It is very, very, very unlikely that the family whose home these soldiers stayed in for a week fired the Grad rocket into Beer Sheba. More than likely, these people do not touch a weapon and are not involved in the militant wing of Hamas.

[cali]

30. that you posted and presumably agree with this disgusting piece of crap

makes me ill.

[shira]

31. that you're ill from reading a little more context and now realizing that the initial

allegations against the IDF from last week are way overblown (see post #17 above) speaks more about your motivations than anything else.

[cali]

35. Wrong as ususal.

I don't know if the allegations are overblown or not. i'll wait for more evidence. I do know the insensitivity demonstrated by Yossi was highly disturbing. And just what the fuck, Shira dear, do you think my motivations are? I've NEVER demonized Israel or Israelis. I speak out emphatically when I see hate or anti-semitism. Trying to paint me as an "Israel hater" is fucking... insane. And dishonest.

[shira]

36. you don't know if the allegations are overblown or not?

please read post #17.

Warcrimes are being alleged with those 2 incidents.

not overblown? are you serious?

[cali]

37. No. I don't. And neither do you. There needs to be a far more extensive

investigation than has been done to date. And care to explain your nasty little did about my "motivation" here? Of course you don't.

[shira]

38. I was too harsh with you before

and you're right, you're not the type to demonize Israel. In fact, I appreciated your recent OP that you immediately labeled a prime example of demonization. I overreacted to you when it appeared at the time you were disdainful to any counterevidence that gave a more complete perspective to recent IDF allegations.

As to the recent allegations, they seem as trumped up as the discredited UN school charge and contradictory white flag incident.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. The entire article is an uncomfortable read, but the entire thing should be read for context...

For example, while I totally disagreed with Yossi's aversion to tidying up a home they'd taken over, he did go on to point out that they're usually left in a complete mess. Another soldier states that if you've spent a week in a house, you clean up the filth before you leave. If the aim of posting this article was to make people think that the very serious allegations levelled at the IDF are not true, it's had the opposite result...

[cali]

33. That's not what I found most disturbing. It was Yossi's outrage

that the inhabitants of the house would lie to him. WTF? Those people are in a highly vulnerable position, scared to death of armed intruders in their home and this guy is outraged that they'd pretend to be friendly and try to get along? That spoke volumes to me.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Yeah, he came across as a real tool with no empathy...

It's people like him who I'd love to be able to put in the position of the family he complained about, even for five minutes so he could feel what it's like and maybe then start to have a bit of empathy...

[shira]

39. good point, but I saw something else

what I saw in the OP are IDF soldiers having quasi-normal relations when stationed with Palestinians during wartime. It doesn't appear that they had to be 'commanded' to get along with their "captives". Of course, the cleaning up afterwards was also a sign of decency not seen in most wars (and I disagree that it was beastial to leave a dirty home - impolite, yes). It's highly unlikely any Israeli held captive by Arabs in the mideast would have been treated similarly - with their home returned to them all spic and span.

[bemildred]

40. Yeah, that's what struck me, complete lack of empathy. nt

[Ken Burch]

43. Anybody being questioned by occupying troops WOULD lie

It's to be expected.

What right does the IDF have to demand anything else when they'd just use more accurate information to kill more Palestinians?

Why SHOULD any Palestinian cooperate with the IDF?

Those soldiers wouldn't cooperate with any occupying Palestinian army if the situation were reversed, and neither would anyone in their family.

What does shira expect, here?