Charlie Chaplin: Brilliant artist or sick bastard?

[Dookus]

In 1943, Chaplin, then 56 years old married the 17 year old daughter of Eugene O'Neill. They met when she was 16.

Oona O'Neill Chaplin remained inseparably devoted to her husband, bearing 8 children by him. She remained a devoted wife until his death in 1977, having been married to him for 34 years.

[WestHoustonDem]

1. Are they mutually exclusive?

[Cooley Hurd]

2. Brilliant with a capital "B"

"Sick bastard" with a lowercase "sb"

Like Woody...

[SheilaT]

3. Chaplin appeared to have a thing

for young girls. After he met and married Oona he seems to have become a faithful and devoted husband. It appears to have been a genuine love match, and she was completely bereft when he died.

Like any human being he was a complex person, and I don't think you can reduce his life to a couple of sentences.

[Kahuna]

23. Here here, Sheila!

Chaplin was definately a complex person. I just introduced some young members of my family to Chaplin. They are mesmerized by his timelessness of his art. Chaplin was ahead of his time.

I personally don't see what a worldly, gifted man would see in marrying teenagers. But, young girls were obviously his fetish. Chaplin was born in 1889. It was a different time back then. A different culture. Since I can't possibly understand the culture of the early 1900s, I won't try to pass judgement.

[Dookus]

24. True...

my Grandmother was married at 14, to a man in his 30s. There was nothing scandalous or abnormal about it at the time.

[CO Liberal]

37. Did She Marry Her Mother's Boyfriend????

I bet she didn't.

You're defending the indefensible again.....

[Dookus]

39. No I'm not

I'm defending the totally defensible: Woody Allen did not commit incest, and there's no evidence he's a pedophile, both accusations made against him today in this forum. That is what I'm defending.

[CO Liberal]

49. You're Standing Up for a Scumbag

And I can't sit idly by and watch without pointing that out.

[CatWoman]

51. I'm with you, Wayne

I just don't get it.

A scumbag is a scumbag is a scumbag.

[CO Liberal]

53. Agreed

And anyone who engages in scumbag activity without remorse afterwords cancels out any good they did in their lives before or after. That's why I put Woody Allen, Charlton Heston, and OJ Simpson in the same category - Total, Absolute Scumbags.

And for the benefit of the Woody defenders in this forum, Bill Clinton does NOT fall in this category because he apologized to his wife, his daughter, and the nation for the Monica affair. In contrast, Woody Allen never apologized for doing Soon Yi, Charlton Heston never apologized for his activities with the Nuts Ruining America (NRA), and OJ never apologized for the killings.

[getoffmytrain]

57. One can simply

apologize for a murder?

[CO Liberal]

58. There are People In This Forum.....

...who feel that Woody Allen doesn't need to apologize for his abysmal behavior.

And no - no one can "simply apologize for a murder". You're talking apples and oranges - the standard tool in trade for Woody Allen apologists.

[getoffmytrain]

61. Gotcha...

Woody's a freak.... no arguments from me. Not to mention, his movies are horrendous, IMHO.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

64. Wow

you're like, REALLY mad at Woody Allen.

I don't know why but that's cracking me up. And I mean no disrespect, I can see you are serious about this subject, I guess it's just the weirdness of finding this post long after it started and thinking "oh it's about Charlie Chaplin" and then BAM WOODY ALLEN!

It just weirded me out to find out, 1/4 of the way into the thread, that this was a Reaction Thread.

Sorry, carry on. I mean no disrespect.

You are SO mad at him!

[Dookus]

70. amazing, isn't it?

We can go through any newspaper in America and every week we can find 10 people who did things MUCH worse than what Woody Allen did, and we don't give it a second thought. But bring up Woody Allen, who is happily married to his "victim" and has been for many years, and people can't get over it.

[barb162]

46. I have watched his movies and saw no brilliance although he

was at times funny. IMHO he should have married someone his own age.

[jdots]

4. misunderstood brilliantart art bastard

Woody Allen would like to be him

[CatWoman]

5. did he fuck Oona's mother, too?

[helnwhls]

11. good point!

[LeighAnn]

6. 17 Year Old Girl! Oh how sick!

Why not ask

"Charlie Chaplin: Brilliant artist or lucky bastard?"

[norml]

73. "Charlie Chaplin: Brilliant artist or lucky bastard?" I agree!

As long as they are of legal age I think it's great. Why the prejudice that you must marry,or be with someone of your own age?

[mitchum]

7. Overrated "genius"

Give me Buster Keaton any day

[flamingyouth]

9. You and me both

:D

[mitchum]

12. Is it because you love film?

Keaton used the possibilities of film in his work (editing, speed manipulation, etc...) Chaplin's work was mostly just glorified music hall routines which were captured ON film.

[flamingyouth]

13. I don't know - I'm just a huge Keaton fan

Chaplin has never done much for me, personally. Keaton, on the other hand, was a genius (for all of the reasons you mention above). He was perfect for the medium of silent film. Too bad he never succeeded in sound much, although much of that had to do with Hollywood politics and his crappy personal life with Natalie Talmadge.

[sir_captain]

42. That's tripe

Keaton was great, but Chaplin was a true artist. Have you actually seen his films like Modern Times or City Lights or are you just making this stuff up?

[mitchum]

44. Yeah, Chaplin the "visionary genius" who thought that sound was just...

a passing fad. I have seen both of them and I stand by my statement.
Chaplin was a 19th century sentimentalist.
Just because there aren't renderings of Keaton at every fried cheese and beer emporioum, that doesn't mean he wasn't the greater artist.

[sir_captain]

55. What are you talking about?

Chaplin didn't think sound was a fad--he was certainly a bit out of his element in the world of talkies, but he did adapt. While certainly not his best work, The Great Dictator and Limelight (with your boy Keaton) are fine films.

I love Buster Keaton, and he may have been a better physical comedian, but he did not come close to the depth that Chaplin had.

You didn't really answer my question--have you seen Chaplin's best films or are you basing your opinion on his shorts?

[Kahuna]

63. You know what I've noticed after watching a dozen or so Chaplin films?

He was ahead of his time. His films were very modern and they transcend time. Also, a lot of comedy routines that first appeared in Chaplin films are still being repeated today. I love Buster too. But I can't say the same for him.

Also, Chaplin's aversion to talkies had more to do specifically with the "Tramp" character. While he may have said that talkies wouldn't last, he didn't believe that. He knew that the Tramp couldn't speak on film. That's why when he did talkies, he had to abandon the tramp.

[Lancer]

15. You took the words right out of my mouth

Keaton was more inventive in many ways, a better physical comedian, IMHO and his movies have a lot more soul. Even in death, he strides the earth like an elfin Colossus, breaking down the fourth wall, creating his own reality, weaving story within a story. . . but I digress.

Oh, and Oona O'Neill was far from the only (barely) prepubescent little thing to strike Charlie's fancy. He lusted after and had a child by Lita Grey, I believe, when she was 17. Major palimony suit. It was in all the papers. There were several more, IIRC.

Basically, Chaplin treated women like whores. He had a 3-week affair with Louise Brooks—she was over 21—he decided when it was over and sent her a check for $2,500. How sporting of him.

[cmkramer]

59. His first wife

was a starlet named Mildred Harris whom he married when she was 17 after she became pregnant. The baby was deformed and died soon after its birth and the marriage ended.

There was a very messy and scandalous divorce with Lita Grey -- apparently he had the mother-in-law from Hell.

Oddly enough, in the 1940's he was sued for child support by a woman who claimed he fathered her daughter. Although it was proven that he did not, the judge still ordered him to pay the woman involved.

I understand he had a thing for virgins which might have explained the fascination with young girls.

[Kahuna]

33. Chaplin was a genuis, IMO. Some of his shorts were hack jobs..

Some of them were brilliant. The Vagabond, Behind the Screen, The Immigrant, The Pawnbroker, and Shoulder Arms are a few that I consider in the brilliant category, for their time, and even stand the test of time for today. As far as his feature films, The Kid, The Gold Rush, The Circus, City Lights and Modern Times, I consider all of them to be masterpieces. Masterpieces because they touch parts of my heart and mind that I have long ago forgotten they existed. A lot of people have the impression that Chaplin films are like feature length cartoons. They are not. If you pay attention, Chaplin is taking the viewers on an emotional roller coaster ride. Once you get to know the Tramp, you understand what motivates him. And what motivates him is unconditional love. Hardly a cartoonish feature.

Another thing I love about Chaplin is how when sound became available, he scored and added music to his films. The music he helped to score added yet another level of brilliance. Chaplin believed that the music should elevate the action like a ballet. So, if you watch his films or shorts with his original music you're in for an additional treat.

[tjdee]

8. Oona wasn't his "daughter"....

The age difference is slightly strange, as I can't imagine what a 16 year old would have in common with a man almost 60...but apparently they fell deeply in love.

It happens.

One could say that about Woody and his stepdaughter I guess...but personally I think it's Shady with a capital S.

Charlie Chaplin was way more talented, btw.

[Dookus]

14. and Soon Yi Previn was not Woody's daughter

despite what people here allege.

[CatWoman]

17. does that make it ok for him to sleep with both mother AND daughter?

He was with Mia throughout the girl's formative years -- surely they formed a bond in the familial way.

her being adopted is a mute point. he also adopted children with Mia (or at least one).

That makes it even sleazier -- to use your position as a trusted member in the family hierarchy in order to gain control.

[Dookus]

18. well

all we have is your assertion that they formed a family bond. Were you there? Did you live with Mia?

You're presuming something that's never been shown. Undoubtedly Farrow and Allen had an unusual relationship - I don't think you can just automatically assume he was over there every night playing Parchesi with the kids.

[CO Liberal]

25. Face It, Dookus, You're Defending the Indefensible

Bringing up Charlie Chaplin to try and deflect criticism away from Woody Allen just won't work. He's scum, no matter what some people on this board think.

[Dookus]

27. If you were less emotional

you'd see I'm only defending him against charges of being a child molester or of fucking his daughter.

I have said repeatedly the whole situation was sleazy. I don't know why you're personalizing this against me. I'm simply pointing out that she was not a child, and she was not his daughter - both true.

[CO Liberal]

38. Anyone Defending That Bastard.....

...needs to re-think their reasoning, IMHO. He's scum - period.

[Dookus]

40. Yes, you've made your opinion clear

And I don't need to re-think anything. I am defending him against unfounded charges of incest and child molestation. That's it. Anything else you think I'm defending is entirely in your overwrought imagination.

[Dookus]

32. oh

the reason I bring up Charlie Chaplin is because I think it's supremely silly to say a person's life work is invalidated somehow by his private life.

Chaplin scandalized a lot of people when he married O'Neill, but it doesn't detract from his films. Similarly, Roman Polanski is a great director, regardless of what he did in his private life.

I believe Woody Allen is one of the greatest directors of all time, and I to say his films are somehow diminished because of the personal scandals is just plain strange to me. I can find dozens of artists who are revered today, yet had private, often sexual, scandals in their lives.

[CO Liberal]

34. And I Believe...

...that Woody Allen is one of the greatest scumbags of all time.

[Dookus]

41. That may or may not be true

but he's a helluva director.

[CatWoman]

48. does he ever put blacks in his films?

I have a problem with that.

[hiphopnation]

50. padon

but this is BS. Lots of black folks throughout his films.

[CatWoman]

52. examples, please

as this is not what I've heard.

I must admit that I'm going on hearsay as I haven't watched any of his films.

He gives me the fucking creeps.

[hiphopnation]

54. in that case

I don't think I'll oblige. Do your own research.

But it speaks volumes that you'll use whatever fictions or half-truths at your disposal to drive home your opinion that Woody Allen is scum of the earth and deserves no less than violent execution. We get it Catwoman! You don't like the man! Some of us happen to like his movies! If I'm guilty of scumbaggery by association in your eyes, then so be it.

[CatWoman]

56. wow!!!!

I find it interesting that you are making this gigantic leap in saying that I think you're a scumbag.

Friends don't let friends post stoopid :crazy:

And I may do my own research, I may not. The interest really isn't there.

I spoke of his not having blacks in his films as that is the conventional wisdom among blacks I discussed this with. Couldn't find a single one interested -- although I may say I canvassed no more than 10 people.

He's not known for his films among the people I asked -- but he is known for his scumbaggery.

I know nothing about yours, and to be quite honest, I don't want to know.

[tishaLA]

60. Go rent Deconstructing Harry

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

65. Modigliani

is one of my favorite artists, but he slept with the hired help like all the frigging time. One of his paintings that is our favorite is in our bedroom and it is of a partially nude housekeeper that he was sleeping with at the time.

Doesn't make his paintings any less fantastic in my opinion.

[flamingyouth]

10. He was also married to the 16-year-old Lita Grey back in the '20s

She was pregnant with Charles Chaplin Jr. at the time (he died in 1968 after years of alcohol abuse).

[CatWoman]

16. bottom line is -- marrying underage girls were the norm in this country

not very long ago -- Loretta Lynn was 13 when she married.

However, fucking a mother and daughter are NOT the norm.

[Dookus]

19. No, it is not the norm.

if your ONLY complaint is he fucked a mother and daughter, so be it. But that does NOT make him a child molester nor a perpetrator of incest.

I agree the whole situation was sleazy and have said so repeatedly. But why add malicious lies on top of it? You can just say you disapprove of a man fucking a woman AND her daughter without accusing him of heinous crimes.

[CatWoman]

21. in the hetero world, that's the ultimate betrayal

I didn't call him a child molester, however, even though the relationship began when the girl was 17.+

Furthermore, I DID NOT accuse him of incest.

Farrow said that in her years with Allen, "There were three of us in the relationship: Woody, his shrink and me. No decisions were ever made without her. He didn't even buy sheets without talking to her. I know that part of several sessions went into his switch from polyester-satin to cotton."

In the book Farrow described her shock at first discovering Allen had taken pornographic photos of her adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn and then that he was having an affair with the 17-year-old.

http://www-cgi.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/9702/05/farrow.book/

[Dookus]

22. OK

If you didn't, good for you. Many others here have.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily take Mia Farrow's word on this situation as gospel. I think the woman's nuttier than squirrel shit.

[CatWoman]

26. in my opinion, any woman who opens her heart and home

up to so many unwanted and needy children is nothing more than a saint.

[Dookus]

28. Well

I think she hordes children like some people horde cats. I think it's possible to adopt many many children and still be a nutcase.

[CatWoman]

35. you act as if that's a bad thing

a lot of those kids are disabled and/or suffer from birth defects.

at least they are being shown love. and that's a wonderful thing.

look at all the needy and unwanted children in the world.

she's doing fabulous work, and if that's her calling, she has nothing but my admiration and respect.

[Kahuna]

30. I saw Mia a few years ago at a broadway show. She was ...

beautiful. Just as fair and delicate in person as when you see her on the screen. I waved hello and said to her, "you're so beautiful." She waved back and said to me, "you're beautiful too." What a lovely lady. And yes. She was surrounded by some kids.

[The Zanti Regent]

29. ...unless you're John Fund, Catwoman

and as usual sick Nazis are allowed off the hook!

[Kahuna]

20. Brilliant artist!!! Chaplin rules!!!

nt

[Nikepallas]

31. BOTH

[Robeson]

36. Brilliant!

[sir_captain]

43. Greatest genius in history of film

In my opinion, City Lights is still the greatest film ever made.

[Kahuna]

62. My favorite is, The Gold Rush. The original version has just been..

released by Warner Home Videos. It's on a two video set with the 1942 re-release. The original version is more dramatic than the re-release. It's stunning. You must see it. Check it out on Amazon.com.

[sir_captain]

66. No worries

I have about 4 different versions of it on DVD including the original and the 42 re-release. And yes, the original is much superior.

[theorist]

45. Watch "The Great Dictator" and you'll think he's just plain brilliant.

Hitler and Chaplin were born in within one week of each other, and both became the most popular men in the world at the same time in the early 1930s. The Great Dictator is the one of the ultimate "fuck you"s to fascism. I can't help but respect the man for producing, writing, and directing this film, regardless of his indiscretions.

[Deja Q]

47. Holy Woody Allen!

:wow:

Well, Charlie didn't quite adopt Oona, but I'm sure he said her name plenty of times. :eyes:

[Dookus]

69. nope

neither did Woody adopt Soon-Yi. She was not his daughter by any definition.

[oscar-something]

67. I'm a liberal, I don't care

[GoddessOfGuinness]

68. If Chaplin had been 17, and Oona 56...

would he be considered a sicko? Would she?

Such a vast age difference is unusual in a marriage, but not necessarily an indicator of perversion.

They married, and it was legal...I figure it's none of my business.

[Dookus]

71. wow! Whoulda thunk/

It was legal and none of our business! What a concept.

Good on ya, Goddess

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

72. That's pretty much how I feel

as long as things are legal (ie: people are of age) I really couldn't give a flying crap.