I just spent two months reading Free Republic...

[Petrichor]

ask me anything.

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

1. Why would you do such a dreadful thing ?

[Petrichor]

3. Because it's fascinating

...and this new aspect of the political process interests me.

[SotarrTheWizard]

75. Gathering Intelligence. . .

. . . it's called "Know Your Enemy". I'm sure some of the smarter Freepers (now THERE is an Oxymoron) lurk here for the same reason. . .

[Petrichor]

76. It's called...

trying to learn and understand how my fellow citizens think, feel and react.

It's part of being a good citizen.

[EST]

2. O.K. Here goes...

How much meat does it take to fill a stovepipe?

[punpirate]

4. Are you okay? n/t

[Petrichor]

6. They are not an invading army.

They are Americans, ya know?

[ComerPerro]

14. AINO Americans in name only

They don't represent or believe in anything that this country stands for (or, used to stand for, until Bush and his pals started moving us towards fascism).

They only started acting patriotic after 9/11. Its all an act.

Watch them turn on the military and on the idea of military force once Kerry gets elected.

Hell, according to right wing emails, they are pissed at Roosevelt for declaring war on Germany during WWII.

[Petrichor]

17. That entire statement is not entirely true.

The patriotism and "traditional" values were in place for a long time. And, too, many military personnel would be drawn from their socio-economic level. And there is also a deep and traditional sense of patriotism that runs through many of these communities, which is in many way enviable.

It's what has been layered on top of those things that the left finds particularly distasteful.

[ComerPerro]

20. Apprently you don't remember the 90's

You know, the Clinton administration.

Back when any war of any kind was bad?

[Petrichor]

22. I have clear memories of the 90s.

However, and in all fairness, the march to war is more easily accepted once you've been attacked.

[ComerPerro]

25. Yes, but from that argument we have two groups

We have people who actually believed that the Iraq war was somehow related to 9/11. Those people are just idiots. Yes, they were lied to, but its their fault. They chose to belive it. I have no respect for them at all because they took in these lies and then had the audacity to condemn others and question their patriotism when they protested. Now I am going to end this paragraph before I get lost in pronouns.

First group, lied to, but its their fault they believed it.


Then you have a second group who knows that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 but don't really give a shit. They just want to see muslims die, they want to see America "kicking ass". These are the people who like Bush because he is a "tough guy who respects the military".



But I will not even begin to argue with you on your point that "the march to war is more easily accepted once you have been attacked". No one knows how to pimp war like Republicans, and all they needed to do was convince people that their very life was at stake.


However, I have noticed one thing about these people, these freepers.

Back in the 90's, they were isolationists. We were to stay out of the buisness of other countries, and no matter what kind of evil shit was going down elsewhere in the world, the freepers insisted that we were not the world's police.

Need an example of this? Just check Bush's debate transcripts. He spoke out against "arrogant foreign policy", "nation building", and the laughable idea of "policing the world".

But look at him now.



>>>Man I wish I could get to sleep....

[Petrichor]

30. Fear being the operative word

I see fear on FR and fear here on DU...there seems to be a sense that our nation is danger, though the source of that danger, obviously, differs.

What disturbs and scared the crap out of me is that the nation is now so divided. I am fearful that something in the system will break under the strain of polarization.

[ComerPerro]

36. You aren't the only one

Me too, man

[tom_paine]

85. Absolutely, it may well be a "walking corspe" already

In the 80s and 90s, Uber-Right Militia and Patriot movement rhetoric (in itself alarming for it's resemblence to Nazi propaganda "The Jews aren't Real Germans" = "The Liberals aren't Real Americans" and so forth) mainstreamed itself through Limbaugh, Coulter and the dozens of Julius Streichers they spawned.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Streicher.html

The Left, the Democrats, had zero idea of the larger repercussions enabled by the constant attacks on FCC regulations, which themselves were put into place by men who firsthand witnessed the power of unchecked and unbalanced Totalitarian Media.

Now we see the penultimate phase of Totalitarian Media, as the last of the Free Press dies away, and Faux "news" (itself identical in function, if not structure due to the massive advances in marketing and PR, to Nazi and Soviet media, serving THE PARTY in all things) along with CNN (there is scarcely as nickle's worth of difference between them) becomes the Newspeak Press.

But this is but one facet of the huge and multi-pronged assault on American Democracy by the Busheviks for the last 20 years and perhaps more.

It would be too long a post to go into the other, mostly successful assualts.

I would maintain that the System, which you are quite correct is straining under the New Amerika under Bush Occupation, is already broken. Whether the damage is irrevocable remains to be seen, but the media only asks hard questions of one side, accepting almost without question that which the other has to say.

By example: Of course you have heard of Gary Condit..who hasn't. Bt I'll bet you don't know about Joe Scarborough (and his victim, Lori Klausutis) even though the Klausutis Murder had several newsworthy "hooks" the Condit story didn't, such as a Crooked Coroner with a Criminal History who was caughr Red-Handed in a lie about the cause of death.

But, as Orwell knew, if no one hears about it, did it really happen?

Living in the mundane day-to-day insanity of Virtual Reality Imperial Amerika, I would have to say "no, it didn't happen".

The point is, the System is likely already dead, it just hasn;t hit the floor with a meaty thud yet.

Further, like the Imperial Romans before them, the New Imperial Family has a vested interest in showing up to the party with the corpse on it's arm.

"Weekend at Bernie's" for a Constitutional Democratic-Republic. Perhaps absurd, but isn;t that what the Caesers did in Imperial Rome until the charade became pointless and the people throughly enslaved?

[Lerkfish]

105. "the left"?

odd way to refer to a group you belong to? while you're defending the group you don't belong to?

I'm a little confused here.

:shrug:

[aquart]

23. Not acceptable. American citizens are American citizens. Free and equal.

They have the right to believe the Easter Bunny has little pink ears or any other damn fairy tale. As long as they break no laws they can say what they please and do what they please.

[ComerPerro]

29. They sure have no problem calling others "anti-American"

My point is, I honestly belive that freepers are more loyal to Bush and the GOP than they are to this country.

[Petrichor]

32. Reaching back in history...

The rhetoric is intolerable on these boards. Bush is seen as a "fascist." Kerry is labeled as a "commie."

No creativity in regards to insults.

[ComerPerro]

35. Everyone is a commie.

I don't try to throw around "fascist" as a catch-all for Republicans.

I call Bush a fascist, however, because it seems to me that he is racing toward fascism

[Swamp Rat]

51. Bush is an alien lizard! DON'T VOTE FOR HIM!!!

[blondeatlast]

65. You severely underestimate us here.

Enjoy your stay; I'm sure you are reporting back there, too.

My guess is you won't find yourself welcome either here or at Rimjob's.

[Petrichor]

78. No, not reporting back to FR.

Much different audience.

[SotarrTheWizard]

77. Fine. . . .

. . .let's call up a classic, shall we ? ;)

Us (and Trekkies. . .)
Bush is a swaggering, overbearing, tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood.

The few Freepers who can actually read and write:
Kerry, on the other hand, is a simpering, flip-flopping "nuancy-boy" with a yen for power and Evita for a wife.


There. Have I gotten creative enough while reproducing the appropriate mind-sets of each side ??? }(

[bo44]

81. Bush is the shitstain left on the constitution after his dad's cronies

wiped their asses with it. Commander Shitstain to the rescue.

[tom_paine]

87. Of course the rhetoric is intolerable

You ae witnessing the Death Struggle of Liberty vs. Tyranny. Of Freedom vs. Imperial Slavery.

Actually, it is quite a testament to the post-WWII Old American Republic that it hasn;t broken out in pen warfare yet.

Now THAT was a great country.

Pity it is almost certainly gone and not coming back.

Imperial Amerika, while it hasn't fully finished transforming itself, does NOT belong to the Free World any more.

How is that for rhetoric? Of course, such rhetoric will be common in hostory books a millenium from now, if there are any honest hostorians left during what could well be the beginning of the Age of the New Totalitarianism (Kinder and Genlter and upgraded to be much more subtle and less violent)

[Carson]

121. I'm not so sure about that

I've seen several distasteful (at least to me) comments by my fellow DU'ers stating (and I'm paraphrasing).."Does it make me a terrible person to hope the Iraq war goes badly so Bush will look bad?" Or regarding the economy, we don't want it to go too well while a Pug is in office.

Would those statements be considered loyalty to Party over Country?

[cap]

24. and the plural of AINO is...

ANUS.

[ComerPerro]

28. should have seen that coming

;)

[blondeatlast]

66. And he accuesd us of no creativity in regard to insults... nt

[Wapsie B]

103. They're also pissed at FDR

for creating social welfare and SSI. And yes they will turn on the military after Kerry gets in. "Wag the Dog" will be shouted nonstop.

[punpirate]

27. Yes, they are an invading army.

As far as the Constitution is concerned, they only understand their view of the 2nd Amendment.

They are unwitting dupes of radicals. Treat them as such.

[MichaelHarris]

5. here goes because I'm sure its covered on that site

in what states is it legal to marry your cousin?

[Petrichor]

9. This hits on a truth in a particularly nasty manner...

...many of the posters would seem to be from rural communities.

[MichaelHarris]

11. with running water?

[murielm99]

13. Hey!

I am from a rural community.

You would be surprised how many rural progressives there are. We are usually the educated ones.

I have never been to FR in my life! Quit stereotyping!

[Petrichor]

15. Apologies...

I did not mean to say that all rural communities are leaning to the far right, but judging from the posts on FR I'd guess that a good many of them are leaning in that particular direction.

And you should go to FR -- not to engage in combat, but to learn what your fellow citizens are thinking.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

21. "...but to learn what your fellow citizens are thinking"

Or not thinking, in the case of FReepers.

[murielm99]

44. I think, in some ways, you have a point.

The use of the Internet for political discussion and news is revolutionary. But revolution always happens for a reason.

People who watch The Daily Show know it is satire, but they also know it is more accurate than the pap the networks feed us.

The news is corporate now, and looks out for the bottom line rather than the the truth. And since the Fairness Doctrine is gone, none of the news providers are obligated to even pretend to present both sides. Our traditional sources of news and information have abandoned us.

There was a time when many people could interact on a more personal level with the people who brought them the news. I can still do it to some extent, because I live in a rural community. I interact with the editor of our weekly newspaper. We have opposite politics, but we talk often. I write letters often. We like each other, and usually end up laughing together.

I do the same thing with the editor of a daily paper that I read from the nearest fairly large community. I exchange e-mails with him, and write letters and guest columns. He always answers my e-mails. So do his reporters.

I have called and e-mailed some of the television stations not far from here. We are a small market. But since the news went corporate, and started leaning to the right, as big businesses do, most people do not have that personal touch, and have lost their voice.

Of course we come here for other reasons: community, shared research, and ideas. I don't know about freepers, but many of the people here are political activists outside of this place. You will see that if you are here for awhile. We are campaign workers, precinct committeemen, election judges, members of MoveOn, and other types of activist organizations.

However, unlike freepers, we are seekers of truth. We criticize our leaders and candidates. We don't have people like the swift boat liars, or people who forge documents, or, like Buckhead, who know too much about forged documents too soon.

I know freeper types in real life. They are people who want security, safety, and definite answers. They want faith in something that is absolute. They think that their warped view of traditional values gives them that. They need a crutch and a cross to ward off the uncertainties of a changing world. Bush and his cronies play to those fears and needs. They dupe them and rob them blind. Since I live in this country too, I am going to use DU and anything else I can find to shed light on what Bush is doing, and to help make some changes.

[Petrichor]

50. Doesn't everyone?

"I know freeper types in real life. They are people who want security, safety, and definite answers. They want faith in something that is absolute..."

What has changed is it is now possible to submerge yourself into a political viewpoint via talk radio, internet, cable news, and periodicals. There is no longer any need to engage in civil debate with neighbors or co-workers. You simply enter the self-re-reinforcing cocoon of left or right.

[Swamp Rat]

52. Well, they are pretty big cocoons considering the millions that marched

against the invasion of Iraq.

Anyway, some are in pods.

[Petrichor]

53. Giant political cocoons...

sold by a couple of oveweight sweaty fat guys and a hyper, very scary blonde chick.

[Swamp Rat]

57. ... but is she good looking? Can she be scary AND good looking?

... like Anderson Cooper?

[murielm99]

59. And why is it possible, or necessary to do that?

If the traditional sources of political discourse and information had not failed us, I don't believe we would be turning to the Internet, or any of those other sources you mention.

They set the tone. The fall of the Fairness Doctrine, and the rise of the Murdoch empire killed any chance for civil debate. And as I have mentioned, the nature of my small community does give me at least some chance for face-to-face discussion. Most people are stuck with the corporate echo chamber.

I was tired of all right wing blather all the time, so I came here. I want to hear my point of view expressed at least once in awhile.

If I could pick up an honest news station, magazine or newspaper, I would be on e-bay or playing solitaire during my Internet recreational time.

As far as security, safety, and absolute answers go, they are not things I need to cling to with the fanatical desperation of a freeper. I am not that afraid of life. I know those things are either non-existent or not guaranteed. I will stand a better chance of having security and safety if Bush and people with his mindset are out of power. As far as absolute answers go, you can have your faith and I will have mine. I am not so insecure as to need the zealotry of those who are trying to hijack my faith, and and trying to force everyone to believe in the same way.

[blondeatlast]

67. Beautifully stated! nt

[Redneck Socialist]

63. Why have the pubs been successful with rural voters?

Sorry to clutter up the lounge with a serious question.

[Petrichor]

64. Because they...

A)Promise to not let things (social and economic) get any worse and try to make them as they were before they got out of control.

B)They do not look down on rural populations with sophisticated disdain or accuse them being cheese/moose/sister fuckers.

C)Their candidate looks like the slightly "better off" neighbor down the block who knows how to apply common sense to what liberals see as complex problems.

[Redneck Socialist]

70. I'm not buying the economic argument

So that leaves

A) Play up social wedge issues.
B) Excellent point
C) Down home image and present simplistic solutions to complex problems.

So the pubs win by pimping social issues. They then turn around and implement economic policies that screw the very people that voted the pubs into power in the first place.

How can Democrats break through that wall of wedge issues and reach the voters that will benefit the most from Democratic economic policies?

[Petrichor]

73. Money isn't everything....

Many of these people are either deeply religious or genuinely socially conservative. These are not attributes that should be ridiculed. They are, in almost every sense, positive attributes.

So much of the crap they see going on in society is profoundly disturbing to them. Democrats have never respected this very real sense of unease, nor the religious values these folks hold.

That is not to say that some of their views are not offensive to city dwellers or more secular folks.

Secondly, economics still factors into it. You get some guy who makes his living on the lower-middle of the scale. He's got his house payment, car payment and kids to feed/clothe/entertain. If the economy takes a dive, his life falls into chaos and he knows it.

[EST]

7. Does "intellectually challenged" mean anything different now,

as opposed to two months ago?

[Petrichor]

10. There's a better question --

What's the average level of education? I'm guessing high school or secondary tier college.

[murielm99]

8. Oh, you poor thing.

Sit down. Can I get you anything? Cocoa? A beer? Antibiotics? Antidepressants? A nice hot shower?

[AgadorSparticus]

16. and bleach. don't forget the bleach.

:evilgrin:

[EST]

12. Is senator Carl Levin really the reincarnation of Ben Franklin?

n/t

[fujiyama]

26. A Jewish Ben Franklin!

Oy Vey!

Carl Levin is one of my senators and he kicks ass!

[EST]

54. Awesome dude-I really admire him!

n/t

[EST]

18. Actually, on a more serious level...

I, too, do a bit of reading over there from time to time, and my impression is (and this is not meant to cast meaningless aspersions) that it's like someone throws a rock and then a bunch gathers around and congratulates him and pats him on the back. The arguments seem to center more around what happened and why it's so good to be a redneck, rather than why something occured, how that affects the problem, and what are the long term effects? I'm sorry, I'm still not making myself clear.

Can you give us a short report on your journey and general impressions?

[Petrichor]

19. A Short Report

A) Many of the arguments put forth over there are recycled from somewhere else -- probably talk radio or talking heads on cable television.

B) Belief comes before reason in many instances. For example, it really didn't matter who the Dems nominated, he would still be the "wrong guy."

C) There are some home grown attempts to "spin" the news, though these are fairly crude.

D) And this is the big one -- the issues that matter most of them are social issues. Cynics here will say it's because President Bush can't stand on his economic record, say, but the people at FR are passionate about social issues -- as well they should be. The world is changing under their feet.

[fujiyama]

31. Would you say

they feel like they're losing the culture war?

I think I remember hearing Pat Buchanan say they had.

I go there once in a while (but never have read their threads on social views...)...They have a few educated posters, but most seem very ignorant. They're reasoning skills are very simplistic...similar to Bush.

[ComerPerro]

33. Good observation on D

And, as a cynic here, I will in fact say that it is because Bush can't stand on his economic record.

But, he doesn't really have to.

That's why he pushed the Federal Marriage Amendment so much.

You summed it up perfectly "The world is changing under their feet"

Ironic, isn't it?

The fact that they are discussing their conservative goals over a digital connection that networks potentially every computer on the earth and can transfer thousands of pages of text in a matter of seconds?

[Petrichor]

37. Everyone is standing on the same world...

A democrat has as much chance of getting outsourced as a republican.

In regards to the culture wars, they have a point. People should be entitled to live the way they want. Yet media or, as they would say, MSM, continues to push the limits. From their point of view, they are under attack. For people on the "coasts" a thing like Paris Hilton is a flash in the pan joke -- to someone with sincerely felt traditional values, she's deeply offensive.

[ComerPerro]

40. I actually see her as both

Flash in the pan joke and deeply offensive. Not because of "traditional values" or anything like that, more because I find her, as a person, completely offensive. But that is way off topic.

I will grant you their perception of being under attack. Actually, Paris Hilton is an interesting example: Rich girl, from a conservative family, being touted by a conservative network as she mocks middle America on her own TV show.

I agree that these people are under attack. I just wish there was some way to explain to them who is actually attacking them.

[Petrichor]

45. Mostly the media

You have talking heads like Limbaugh on the right and Michael Moore on the left. Both bending the truth to nobody's benefit and turning the political system in professional wrestling.

They might actually be the same person.

[ComerPerro]

46. Twins, separated at birth

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

43. Perhaps they need some perspective.

How does Paris Hilton effect them directly? Answer: she doesn't. They are too easily offended. Why? They have been trained to be too easily offended, by the RNC Squawking Heads.

I have found that those things that don't directly effect me, don't directly effect me. And then I deal with those things that do directly effect me. It's something called "perspective". They might like to try it sometime.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

39. Yes, they are passionate...

About social issues. A delightful melange of 11th and 19th century social issues. a soucon' of issues that range from "divine rights of royalty", to "manifest destiny", to "white man's burden", and then to socio-sexual ideations that would make a committed Victorian-era prude seem like a libertine and feel inadaquate.

"The world is changing under their feet"? It changed a long time ago. They just choose to live in a delusional state as regards said change.

Sorry, I have no respect or regard for them whatsoever. They are an aberrant blight on the body politic. Bitter, scared white men with an avowed fetish for violence.

[EST]

56. Yeah, I grew up in that environment.

"Sin" is far more important than the deaths of millions-sez righ cheer inda bable.
Yargh!
Thanks a lot for your report. Agrees with my own analysis. My wife, although she is going to vote liberal this time, still thinks Bill Clinton's indiscretion is on par with the horrors of the Douche regime! Oh, well, one of the reasons she married me was because I'm very tender-hearted and understanding!

[blondeatlast]

68. Regarding point A:

A) Many of the arguments put forth over there are recycled from somewhere else -- probably talk radio or talking heads on cable television.

That's precisely why I made an effort to find DU--I can hear that tripe everytime I turn on the TV.

Here it's analyzed, dissected, and more often than not, demonstrated to be pure spin. Or worse.

The world is changing under their feet.--and rightly so (leftly?).

[Petrichor]

69. It's recycled here, too.

...that's a fact. Throw in the usual conspiracy theories, insults, etc. and it's a mirror image of FR.

That the world is changing is obvious, simply because the world has always changed. And will always change.

But no, it's not change toward the left. It's changing toward the dangerous.

[Lexingtonian]

34. I recommend chemotherapy

And yes, FR is proof that these days the illiterates know how to type.

They are kind of amusing- they realize far more clearly than liberals how irreversibly and completely the society is changing. Their idiocy lies in morally and politically bankrupting everything actually worth conserving. They separate the wheat from the chaff and discard the wheat. Then they idolize the chaff.

I'm always struck by the irony that selfidentified conservatives throughout American history invariably mangle and corrupt and pass on corrupt interpretations of American history. So that it takes liberal historians to recover and reassemble all the facts, to preserve the history of the country. Well, all that really says is that American conservatives have usually been reactionaries and immoralists rather than conservatives. FR is a pretty good reflection of that vile tradition.

[donheld]

38. why why why

1. Do you have Mascochistic tendencies?:)
2. Were you doing pentence for some terrible crime?:D
3. How did you, or did you, keep your sanity?B-)
4. Could you tell what makes those people the way they are?:bounce:

[Petrichor]

41. Fear

They are afraid of what's coming down the pike -- and maybe with good reason. We live in a dangerous world with an uncertain economy.

[ComerPerro]

42. I do have a question

Have you read lucianne.com or conservativeunderground?

If so, how would you say these places stack up to Free Republic?

Do there seem to be significant differences in the attidutes, concerns, and goals of the posting community of each site?

Or, if you haven't been to these places, do you think it would make for an interesting thesis?

[Petrichor]

47. All the sites are on message.

You see the same phrases pop up and repeat on all conservative sites. Just as you do on liberal sites.

[ComerPerro]

48. Yeah, but I was wondering more specific

I am wondering if there are different "personalities" at each respective site, if there is a reason that some righties prefer one site over another, if they feel an identity with one over others and for what reason.

Maybe, something like "Free Republic is more dedicated to anti-abortion causes, while Lucianne is geared toward implimenting a national sales tax and eliminating the income tax".

I know its not that specific, but I think it would be interesting.

[Petrichor]

49. Nothing but branding...

at least from what I can tell. People get used to one site over another and feel comfortable there. However, as mentioned, the whole web is an echo chamber. Same words and arguments repeated endlessly.

[Night Gal]

55. Ok...... here's my first question

and my second, and third, etc....

I'm a newbie to registration and posting here myself,but I gotta' wonder why only 34 posts in DU?

Are you a closet freeper?

Were you truly seeking to look at things from the other side of the mirror or stir things up?

Based upon reading your answers I perceive you as more liberal/middle than right/middle. Did hanging out in the Den of Deliverance cause you to re-think any of your basic beliefs? If so, what.

Have you changed your mind about anything that was near and dear to your heart, 2 months ago? If so, what.

Did they force you to wear pajamas? ;-)

Are they as mean spirited as is rumored?

Are they mean toward Teresa? (Personally I'm not a big fan of hers either...}

I've got to be honest, some of the things I read on THIS board are IMHO, well overboard with malice and hatred. Lots of old resentment still lurking in some hearts. That's not what I'm about and not what I find the true Party is about. I'm thinking that you found some of the same crap over there.

Lots of men get delusions of grandeur when sitting behind a keyboard, eh?

[Petrichor]

58. Uh, well...uh...

A) First, don't diss Deliverance, one of the best first novels ever written and the only movie where a major poet makes a cameo appearance...

B)The tone and level of anxiety are similar on FR and DU. I would suspect the DU bunch are somewhat better educated and somewhat younger.

C)Also, I happen to be fond of Teresa or as the Freepers would call her, Ta-raaaay-za. She's probably brilliant, but too subtle for politics or the public stage. Tough cookie, though.

D)No, I'm not a closet freeper. I believe in systems -mechanisms - that provide what's needed. My fear is that the system is in danger of being broken by a polarized country.

[ComerPerro]

60. What are your thoughts on FReeper nicknames?

Some are kind of amusing (Such as John F@#king Kerry, despite the Vice Presidents penchant for throwing swear words around the Senate floor), while others are just kind of pathetic (Clintoon, Clintonista, Hitlery, etc.)

What are some of the more notable ones you have noticed, both lame and amusing, and which ones stood out the most?

[Petrichor]

61. They all blend together...

I don't pay attention to the nicknames, just the posts. They are convinced that Hilary is going to make a run for the WH in 2008. It's what keeps the anti-Clinton thing going. The antagonism towards Clinton is somewhat odd -- he's been out of office for four years, right? And they still go on about him. The hate has a half-life.

[GiovanniC]

62. Is "Moose/Cheese/Sister" a List of Things Freepers Deem "Fuckable"?

n/t

[blondeatlast]

71. Do you judge Harvard from a production of the Hasty Pudding Club?

I noticed you have been posting ONLY in the Lounge.

If you are basing your ideas about DU exclusively from this forum, you have missed the meat of the matter, my friend.

Dive into Latest Breaking News, or General Discussion/GD2004, the Media, etc. before you judge us.

Your arguments related to us are moot otherwise.

As I say, enjoy your stay, however brief.

[Petrichor]

74. I've lurked in the other areas...

And no, I don't judge Harvard by Hasty Pudding. I judge it from Tommy's Lunch.

[blondeatlast]

72. Who are you supporting for President?

Let's just cut to the chase, and I hope you read the Rules as you came in.

[blondeatlast]

79. You're online, I'm still waiting...

tick, tick, tick...

[Petrichor]

80. Waiting for what?

Sorry, I lost the string....

[blondeatlast]

82. Who are you supporting for President...

THE QUESTION YOU JUST REPLIED TO.

[Petrichor]

83. Does it matter?

That is for purposes of this dialogue?

[blondeatlast]

84. You said, ask you anything.

So I'm asking.

Another one: Did you read the rules?

[Petrichor]

86. Yes, I read the rules...

And, not to avoid answering, I will tell you my primary concern. I have a fear -- an actual real, genuine fear -- that the country is so divided that something in the machinery of democracy might break. I believe in the system -- the mechanism - of democracy more than a single candidate.

Also, we've already seen one president hobbled by relentless partisan acts. Those attacks came from the right. Will we see another president face similar attacks from the left, and with what consequences?

I believe, very truthfully, that these are valid concerns and I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the divide.

[blondeatlast]

88. I can accept that, but you are avoiding the answer.

Just be aware that this is a decidedly LW board, and we are protective of our turf. And you wanted debate, so you should have posted in one of the GD forums.

And as to the "one" candidate being hobbled by partisan attacks, I don't see it. That the challenger is running this close to an incumbent wartime president is damn effing impressive, actually (this is my SEVENTH presidential election, btw).

DU, CU, and FR are NOT the place to mend the fences. That is decidely NOT what any of them are about.

If you want to mend the divide, have honest debate between the disparate sides, fine. There are plenty of sites out there for you.

I just don't think you are going to amke enough allies between DU, CU, and FR to get anywhere. Free exchange of vastly different ideologies is decidedly NOT what they are about. They also make no pretense whatsoever to being that. Much as I loathe the other two, I welcome them as a part of the community; they have a right to exist.

And I think you are avoiding the answer, because you can't take the risk of being tombstoned.

I admire what you believe you are doing, but I think your approach (from 3 disparate directions) is doomed to fail. Alert on me if you feel inclined.

And next time, please post this stuff in GD or GD2004.

[Petrichor]

89. This is the thing -- (as David Mamet would say)

... I believe that average citizens are past the point of debate. That is one of the things that bothers me. A lot.

In any event, I'm not interested in debate -- a win/lose kinda thing -- I want to know what people think.

[RandomKoolzip]

92. Here's a couple questions:

1. Do the freepers, those working-class or lower middle-class men and women who brag about their "rugged individualism," realize that they're being lied to and manipulated by the billionaires who own the media, i.e. Olin, AEI, Heritage, etc.?

2. The republicans are determined to turn America into a one-party state. This isn't paranoia; certain of them have in fact stated as much (Norquist, Gramm, Coulter, etc.). What are they going to do with the 52% of Americans who don't think their way? They can't jail us all (can they?) Do the freepers promote genocide or think it's a good idea? Do they not realize that what, in fact, they are promoting is totalitarianism?

3. Do they realize that the idealized past which they cling to never really existed?

4. Why the obsession over tax codes?

5. The republicans own all three branches of government, the SCOTUS, and the media. Isn't that enough for them?

[Petrichor]

96. Fair questions...

1) Obviously they don't realize they are coming out with the dirty end of the stick, economics-wise.

2)Coulter can't be included in a serious question. She's a clown. A very skinny, weird, scary clown. The question could/should be voided on the Coulter issue alone. In any event, the Freepers see the two party thing shaping up as a dominating Republican Party and a secondary, much weaker Democratic Party. This is unrealistic, but it's what they believe.

3)No, they don't realize the idealized past never existed in the form they believe it did.

4) Obsession over tax code? Why do you think? It's the principle of the thing! (I crack myself up sometimes).

5)The Republicans "control" not own all three branches.

[RandomKoolzip]

99. Thank you.

If you have the time, could you also fill me in on how they feel about Grover Norquist?

[Julien Sorel]

95. I don't understand.

"Average citizens" don't debate or care much about politics, that's part of the problem in this country. Your going to activist sites and then drawing conclusions about the attitudes of "average citizens" doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I agree with the point about this place being a mirror image of Free Republic, but I've only been there to check out links people here have posted. I would certainly not bother going there to figure out what the average citizen thinks.

My own impression, by the way, is that while the average poster here is on a higher level than the average poster there, they have some pretty high-powered people over there who don't froth at the mouth and can make good, reasoned arguments, and who are willing to accept Bush, warts and all, because he serves their purpose. We don't seem to have as many of those here.

At any rate, an interesting thread.

[RandomKoolzip]

90. Yeah, but the question is valid:

Who are you voting for?

[Petrichor]

91. My goal in life is to be the old Chinese man...

...go on the New York City subway -- 2 or 3 in the morning -- there's always an old Chinese man, sometimes in a Members Only jacket, with a bag of groceries, something green and leafy sticking out of the top.

I wanna be that guy. Invisible.

If I answer the question, as valid as it is, then I can't be the Chinese guy.

[RandomKoolzip]

93. So it's Bush then.

Say no more; we got it.

Before I alert you, I'd appreciate it if you'd at least take a stab at answering the questions I posted above. Thanks.

[Petrichor]

100. I'll avoid the question one more time...

but in a way that please you.

Bush will probably lose in November. Why? And how do I know? A lot of people on Wall Street are very, very nervous at the present time.

[RandomKoolzip]

102. Huh. I didn't find that pleasing at all.

Because I got the sense that you're just trying to tell me what I want to hear. And because you didn't tell me who YOU'RE supporting for president, like I asked.

[Petrichor]

104. I told you the truth...

I don't pander, which you should have picked up on by my not answering the question.

Also, when you have guys like Warren Buffett (sp?) shorting the dollar and buying positions in gold, what does that tell you. Google foreclosures under the news function and see what comes up. Who holds the mortgages on those houses, aside from Fannie Mae, etc. Lastly, look into people going belly up financially (same google function) -- the reason the new laws are stuck in committee etc. is that the banks fear a run on bankruptcy filings that could sink them.
And then there's the debt. Interest rates are heading up.


All that said, I'm still undecided.

And, too, I have great empathy/sympathy for the freepers.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

106. Sounds like a conspiracy theory

Warren Buffett is NOT the only one practicing this. How about looking at big Repuke supporters and financial servoices firms? Or is it ponly because Buffett is a Democrat that you mention him?

[Petrichor]

107. Wall Streeters are very nervous...

I've spoke to a couple of them over recent weeks and they ain't happy campers. Bankers the same.

No conspiracy theory though. To quote Gore Vidal: When everyone thinks the same, there's no need for a conspiracy.

To phrase it more simply -- I think you will be seeing some old line Republicans voting Democrat in November.

[Misunderestimator]

108. "All that said, I'm still undecided."

Really? How is it that you are undecided? In this thread you are bragging about frequenting a site that is against just about everything that THIS site is for, such as equal rights for women and minorities, and you seem to be trying to make its members seem less than the rabid idiots that they are. What's the purpose? You say it is so that you can understand your fellow citizens. If you really consider THOSE people your FELLOW citizens, it makes me quite wary of you.

Anyone who would say that they are undecided right now, with all the information we all have is not here for any purpose other than to try to dissuade others. It's a useless activity, don't you think?

Why on earth would you vote for Bush? Because, that is what you are saying that you are considering doing, by saying that you are undecided.

[Petrichor]

110. It's troubling...

If you reached a set of conclusions by what you feel is reason, wouldn't you be interested in the process by which people reach a completely different set of conclusions? That is why I frequented FR over an extended period of time. I came to this site to get another perspective. And...

A)I'm not here to debate or change anyone's mind.
B)I do consider those people on FR my fellow citizens just as I consider people in DU fellow citizens.
C) I always make up my mind on who I vote for at the last minute.

[redqueen]

111. So could it be said, then, that

despite the fact that the choice is obvious, you won't decide until the last minute?

[Petrichor]

113. Yes.

Great. Now they're all going to jump on me, but here goes...

I don't make long time horizon decisions about many things because remaining undecided allows me to process more information. This is information that may be useful at some distant date.

I would add, that I am not trying to change anyone's mind. Really. Sincerely. Absolutely. My habit of making last minute decisions is just a personal thing.

[Misunderestimator]

115. Believe me... you aren't changing anyone's mind here.

I'm just curious why you bothered coming here in the first place.

[Petrichor]

122. For about the thousandth time...

I wanted to learn something. I have no agenda.

[Misunderestimator]

123. Learn something? It took 2 months at that site to learn something?

All you have to do is read their "mission statement" to learn all you need to know. What do you learn from reading hate-filled, bigoted posts from idiots that support the worst president we've ever had? Really? What DO you learn?

[Petrichor]

125. I learned why they think the way they do...

And I learned how people who feel helpless express themselves sometimes, not always, but sometimes.

[Misunderestimator]

127. Please enlighten us then... since you now know the secret of why they

think the way they do. Why?

[RandomKoolzip]

131. "Helpless?!" You've got to be SHITTING ME, PYLE!

They've got the "control" of all three branches of govt! The media is at their beck and call! They've got all the fucking guns and ammunition they could want! They've got hummers and enormous SUV's! They've got the power to influence the supposedly "liberal" media (witness Mr. Buckhead.) 40% of the country identify themselves as "evangelicals." How much more "help" do they need?!?

Now PLEASE tell me that these people actually feel "helpless." Seems to me more like they're drunk on power.

[Misunderestimator]

126. Interesting tactic there, pretending that it's just a "habit" of yours

I very much doubt that you honestly have not made a decision. And I can easily guess what your decision is.

[Petrichor]

133. I don't have tactics...

Really.

And I'm also fairly confident who will win in November (see: previous post)

[Misunderestimator]

135. Saying that you are confident who will win, is not the same as saying who

you support to win.

[Misunderestimator]

114. Still, I'm awfully curious how you could be waiting to make up your mind

on who you will vote for until the last minute. It couldn't be more obvious this election year than EVER before that we need to get rid of our current administration. That is, after all, the purpose of this website. MY fellow citizens are definitely NOT frequenters of FR. Most of my neighbors are republicans, but they are not the hateful, ignorant, knuckledragger types that frequent that site. They can be reasoned with. Many of them have already decided not to vote for Bush because of the obvious damage he has done to this country. Those who belong to FR are the very edge of the spectrum. For you to even care or be curious about such non-thinking fools, is cause for concern.

I would never waste a moment on someone who doesn't want me to have the same rights as anyone else. Why do you?

[Petrichor]

116. Because FR is a flashpoint...

I would advise you to read What's The Matter With Kansas? but the book doesn't do it justice.

[Misunderestimator]

119. I would advise you to stop reading FR

[Kathy in Cambridge]

94. How can you be invisible when you started a post that could

easily disintegrate into flame bait?

In order to frame your argument more persuasively, it would help us to understand who you're supporting for president.

[Petrichor]

97. I don't have an argument that I wish to frame...

I have a sincere desire to know.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

98. You've grown tiresome

:boring:

Stop being coy and put your money where your mouth is, or enjoy your brief visit.

[RandomKoolzip]

101. Pleading the fifth worked for Ollie North.....

But OUR press is much less forgiving.

[redqueen]

109. Do you honestly believe that the scales are balanced?

How often have you seen the personal information of people we disagree with posted here for the express purpose of inciting an escalation of hostilities?

Do you deny this is done at that forum?

:eyes:

[Petrichor]

112. The scales aren't balanced...

the demographic make-up between the two forums -- from what I can surmise -- is vastly different.

That also accounts for the public display of personal information.

[redqueen]

117. I fail to see how the demographic makeup of the members

could in any way account for someone deciding to put someone else's life in danger simply because they disagree with their politics.

Care to explain?

[Petrichor]

120. You're kidding, right?

What do you think the demographic make-up of FR is?

If you meant to say, you don't know how it would "justify" putting someone else's life in danger, then you'd be correct.

[redqueen]

124. LOL

I see your point. When you said 'demographic' I first thought age/sex/location.

If you are looking at a finer granulatrity, I suppose makes perfect sense.

:toast:

[Misunderestimator]

118. From what you can surmise? That's the funniest post yet.

[chiburb]

128. It comes out from under the bridge at 3:00 in the morning

And it still lives? Maybe because it's polite and can spell?

I'm so confused...

[Misunderestimator]

129. Politeness and spelling apparently go a long way around here.

:shrug:

[Petrichor]

130. Good manners go a long way everywhere...

But I have been working while posting here.

[Misunderestimator]

134. Since you are so well-mannered, how could you stand to spend

2 months at that site? From what I've seen, there is a dearth of manners there.

You still haven't answered why it is that you are undecided in regard to who you will be voting for. (Aside from the excuse that you always wait until the last moment to decide anything.)

[Petrichor]

137. I don't engage in political debate there...

...I ask politely for opinions on specific topics.

My habit is not an excuse. It's part of my personality.

[Misunderestimator]

138. LOL... part of your personality is to not know who you will vote for?

You seem intelligent enough to have made a decision about the future direction of our country. Are you just waiting for the perfect ad on TV to tell you who to vote for? Do you think that suddenly Bush will exhibit signs of leadership that he has heretofore not exhibited? Do you think that ANYONE but Bush would not make a better leader for our country? Would you REALLY consider voting for a President who has sent thousands of our "fellow citizens" to be wounded and die for a lie?

And your habit IS an excuse. It's an excuse to not expose your real agenda.

[One_Life_To_Give]

132. Do you need help with your Medical Bills?

You must have a good Psych to help recover from 2 months of FR.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

136. So are you finished with your little mind fuck yet?

Several times in this thread you claim to be undecided In my view that means you are considering that Bush is worthy of your vote. If he is, please explain how it is he s worthy of your vote, but keep in mind, the ground rules for participating here are to join us in defeating Bush.

[chiburb]

139. Too late.

I don't think it can respond anymore...

[Misunderestimator]

140. Well, damn... that took a while. Sheesh.

[chiburb]

142. Some good things take time, like a fine wine...

Or in this case, vinegar.

It was worth the wait.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

143. He was still playing his game a minute before I enquired

[Misunderestimator]

144. Yes, indeed he was. He last posted at the very same minute you did.

[chiburb]

145. Hmm... now that I think about it, I've never seen you and

him in the same thread at the same time...

Hmm.

;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

147. Yep and he never talks when I am drinking a glass of water

:evilgrin:

[chiburb]

149. OT:

How are your chest pains?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

150. they have been replaced by an aching longing

I'm back home now :cry:

[chiburb]

151. Better to have loved and left, than ...

I'm glad for your meet-up, just sorry it didn't happen in Chicago.

Welcome home.

:-)

[Julien Sorel]

141. He's gone, folks.

Too bad, as I think he made some valid points, although it's too bad he chose to be coy. Obviously, the guy was a Bushite with a conscience, or else he would have claimed to be a Kerry supporter, as most normal trolls do.

Going here and to Free Republic is a damned odd way to gauge the sentiment of the "average person." Too bad he never bothered explaining that.

[ismnotwasm]

146. Social issues....

Layers under layers. Do we give tax cuts to cooperations to stimulate investment and hiring? Or do we provide tax relief to the middle class/poor to buy more products-? How do we help the poor? Is is "their" fault they are poor? Are they lazy? The prison industry a very large industry in the U.S. What would happen to the economy if we "cured" crime? Who deserves health care? Everybody? Or those who can "afford" to pay for it? Is drilling for more oil THE answer? Or do we seek alternatives? Is global warming "real" or part some sort of environmental conspiracy? Are we divided by politics because being divided by race isn't quite as effective anymore? In other words, this political polarization, is it deliberate manipulation via the media, in place for a number or years, or is it a natural result of thinking persons forming opinions?

[chiburb]

148. More social issues:

How's my breath? Are my nose hairs too long? Should we go out for Chinese or Italian tonight?

THOSE are the burning issues of MY day... at least while I'm in the Lounge.

:-)

[ismnotwasm]

152. Nose hair questions

The answer is ALWAYS YES--they are too long. They is no acceptable length standard for nose hairs. Especially if you are a nose breather, and the wiggle with each breath. ACK!!!

[RetroLounge]

153. Okay, I'l ask

Enjoying your tombstone AssHat?

RL