Does reverse racism exist?

[mark414]

Poll question: Does reverse racism exist?

this came up in the post discussing the movie white chicks. i am just going to copy and paste what i said on that thread. i'm curious to see what other Du'ers think about this subject.

it is not possible for blacks to subject white people to racism; making white people subjects of discrimination, yes, but racist? no.

the issues of racism, classism, sexism, etc. imply that one group holds power over another and uses said examples as justifications for their oppression. the oppressed classes cannot use said -ism's in reverse because the oppressed classes hold no power over their oppressors.

blacks cannot be racist towards whites
women cannot be sexist towards men
gays cannot be sexist towards straights
poor people cannot be classist towards rich people
etc.
etc.
etc.

EDIT: i am a straight, white, middle class male

it's called white privilege, and it manifests itself whether intentionally or unintentionally.

because i am white, i am more likely to:

grow up in a safe neighborhood
get a good education
get a good job
not get stopped randomly by police
not get shot by said police for pulling out my wallet
etc.
etc.
etc.

i'm not saying that there aren't black people who hate all white people, but that's not racism. it's discrimination. there is a big difference there. racism is an institution. discrimination is an individual thing, an individual mindset.

it is hard for white people, myself included, to really get a grip on this idea and understand the privileges that come just with being white and to understand the dynamics of the power and privilege structure as it presents itself in modern day america.

who agrees with me? who doesn't? why?

EDIT: PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR ANSWER

[onebigbadwulf]

1. Reverse racism is getting benefits for being of a certain race

Obviously it exists everywhere where the race is the majority.

[goclark]

2. I'm Black and many times Blacks

talk about Whites with anger,disappointment and frustration!

Most Blacks don't hate all Whites as a group,some times we just forget to mention the hundreds of White friends we have that we love.

How I wish that we were a color blind society, but it ain't here yet.

To be perfectly honest, slavery is a bitch to forget!

[HEyHEY]

3. The veyr notion of "Reverse Racism" is racist

It eludes to White people being the predominant racists, hence when they are discriminated against - the usually streaming beam of racism is reversef - BS
Racism is Racism
Look it up in a dictionary.

[mark414]

7. well, looking at the history of america...

white people came and killed all the red skinned indians. we threw the rest of them on shitty reservations.

we then got rich by stealing the black skinned africans and making them work for us for free.

and in our rush towards manifest destiny, we killed a bunch of the brown skinned mexicans and took their land too.

and then in world war II, we locked up a bunch of yellow skinned japanese americans because they constituted a "threat"

we're doing the same thing today, only with brown skinned arabs, because as we all know, all arabs are crazy islamic terrorists who want to kill us (sarcasm).

i'm talking about america, not the world.

no other country in the world has the race dynamic that we do, thus making it such a different experience for all.

[HEyHEY]

9. South Africa Did, Ziare DOES

The race dynamic makes no difference. Your argument pits sides against each other and perpetuates the racial problems instead of resolving them because you are stereotyping the race,not the people. It's like saying, most felons are black = all blacks are felons. Just like saying Most racists are white=all whites are racist./
We're all people who need to drop skin colour as an issue

[mark414]

12. i agree

but we cannot drop the skin color issue while it still negatively affects people

racial profiling? segregation that is disproportionately tied to socioeconomic status as well as racially? a disproportionate number of young black and latino men in prison?

it's a huge issue, and until WHITE people (like me) accept and understand the power and privilege that their skin grants them, it will always BE an issue

[NightTrain]

4. "Reverse racism" is just another right-wing code word.

And while I'm thinking of it: I'm sick and fucking tired of white bigots thinking they can badmouth minorities to me because I'm white myself. No, losers, we who share your skin color do not all agree with your despicable views on race!

[mark414]

5. that's the worst

as if it's ok to say things to me just because i'm white too.

my friend's step dad is filipino, and there was a time when one of his (the step dad's) business partners made a racial crack to his wife, when he never ever would've said it to his face.

they never did business again.

and you're right, it IS a right wing code word, used to justify their opposition to affirmative action, etc.

[DrWeird]

6. It's a bit like homophobes whining about discrimination...

towards christianity. "Oh, you want us to accept homosexuality? That's discrimination to our christian values."

It's like the racist who says, "you want us to hire black people? That's reverse racism."

Technically, it can be such a thing as "reverse racism." But it's blown way out of proportion.

[MaryBear]

8. I said yes, but the important difference

is that some women have experienced cause to dislike some men, and generalized. Some blacks have experienced cause to dislike some whites, and generalized. True racism/sexism/etc. generalizes and then looks for cause to believe it.

[mark414]

10. but that's individual discrimination, not racism or sexism

read what i wrote above the poll again

[jdj]

16. I believe racial tension exists, not necessarily reverse racism.

One poet I read expressed her frustration at trying to help people understand "that it is impossible for an oppressed people to oppress their oppressor." (She's Native American, not 'Indian'.)

That is the word I use.

Racism to me is institutionalized, and culturally enforced, like gender discrimination.

The race can always vary of course, the root word of slave is 'slav' for slavic peoples who were enslaved, and who were undoubtedly caucasian.

It's the dichotomy, the hierarchy that exists in the condition, the one up/one down top/bottom, dominant and dominated that remains througout history , with the specific players, race-wise, varying.

Probably no race exists that has not enslaved, but that doesn't negate the effects of being the one-down in any particular society or culture.

[mark414]

19. i didn't mean any offense or intent to defame by saying "indian"

that word itself could be construed as a negative, thanks to murdering pillaging rapist chris colombus.

i didn't use it intentionally, but i guess it helps to make my point.

or something

[jdj]

23. Wow. It makes your point exactly. Exactly.

Cool. Native Americans have had to pay for the fact that Columbus was a moron for 500 years. If reverse racism were a real phenomenon, they could have just got him back by getting his race wrong and we'd all still be thinking he's Chinese.

It's the power imbalance that IS ism, without it, it's just dislike or distaste or tension or whatever.

[mark414]

28. huh? i'm agreeing with you

i just explained it poorly. all apologies.

but it's like african-american and black
gay and LGBT
hispanic and latino

different people prefer or dislike different terms

i know an LGBT man who hates the word gay

my roommate is half cherokee and he calls himself an indian

so on, so forth

[jdj]

33. I know, I'm agreeing with you back.

Sorry I didn't make it clear.

I've seen Black people roll their eyes at being called "African American"

[mark414]

34. "callin' me an african american, like everything is fair again"

ice cube - "when will they shoot"

[jdj]

36. good rhyme

I love feminine rhyme, Eminem is the master at it, too bad he's such a misogynIST.

[mark414]

40. he disappoints me

i can't help but listen to him cause his wordplay is so damn catchy, but he's a pretty smart guy. he has such potential to bring some knowledge into the game but...he doesn't.

*sigh*

oh well

[jdj]

42. I think he will.

When he begins to wonder WHY his daddy left, and WHY his Mom got addicted, and WHY she had to struggle so much as a single Mom...when he realized who his REAL enemy is (the same ones that were his white trash parents' enemies) then I hope he will keep writing, and apply that God-given gift to the cause of his pain instead of the effect. He is utterly brilliant, it is so encouraging to me, his success, because it proves how humans still love poetry and rhyme and art..it sucks I'm in some of the groups he disses..I sure would like to see him take his poison pen and apply it to politics and rhyme about that, he would be unstoppable.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

11. Racism is Racism...

Dammit. Racism is judging someone based on their "Race". It is not racism from whites to blacks. It's EVERY Type of racism. I don't understand why people think that whites are the only ones capable of it! Asians, Blacks, and Latinos are very very capable of it as well. I've seen it. I just wish we didn't have certain words for certain people. It's almost as ridiculous as this whole Hate Crime BS. There has to be some level of hate for you to victimize ANYONE!! UGH
Duckie

[mark414]

13. we can wish all we want

but that doesn't change reality.

did you even read what i wrote above the poll?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

15. I did. I was just ranting.

[Cheswick2.0]

86. NO

You don't know what you are talking about. Please go read up on the topic. You are talking about prejudice, not racism.

You don't understand hate crime either? Acccccccccck!
Hate crime is used to intimidate a whole group of people by singling out a victim who is a member of that group.
For instance the guys in Tx who dragged that man to death behind their truck were guilty of hate crime. Why? Because part of the reason the did it was to try and get other's to do the same. They said so. They wanted to start a Klan group.

[Khephra]

14. But yourself a dictionary

While it can be argued that "reverse racism" might not exist and is a RW talking point based on nighttrain's statement (I don't agree though), you say this:

"i'm not saying that there aren't black people who hate all white people, but that's not racism. it's discrimination. there is a big difference there. racism is an institution. discrimination is an individual thing, an individual mindset."

Check out any dictionary and you'll get a similar definition to this one:

RACISM

1: The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

2: Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=RACISM%20

Racism is an individual belief. Institutions have NOTHING to do with it. It's a belief held by individuals.

DISCRIMINATION:

Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination;discrimination against foreigners.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discrimination%20

Neither one of them is institutional. Oh, there's instituational racism and sexism. That's for sure. But based on your posts in this thread and the "White Chicks" thread you seem to think that it's impossible for people to be sexist or racist towards white men just because "white men" are the ones who hold power.

You stated that you're a white man and I'll tell you one thing--if you've never faced sexism because you're male or racism because you're white then you're one lucky individual.

[mark414]

17. you don't get it

i have experienced women who hate me cause i'm a man, black people who hated me cause i was white, gay people who hated me cause i'm straight, etc. etc. etc.

but when they called me a pig or whitey or whatever gay people call straight people in disgust, there is no history of institutionalized power in those words

if i tell a woman to get back in the kitchen, call a black man a nigger, or call a gay guy a fag, there is a loaded power behind those words, and a history that goes back for years and years.

those words represent the horrible oppression that was forced upon those different groups and to an extent still exist today.

society has gotten a lot better. but we still have a long way to go.

[Khephra]

18. No, I get it

You don't get that racism and sexism are all about fear of the "Other". That's it. It's simple to understand. Everything else that you've stated is nothing but hot air.

I won't be responding anymore as I can see this is a waste of time.

Thank you,Admin. It's times like this that I bless you for programing in the ignore function.

[mark414]

21. that's the way to do it!

stick your fingers in your ears! i don't like what you have to say so nah nah nah i can't hear you!

[Ron Green]

26. What you said!

That's it... it's the fear of the Other. It is in one way more powerful than love, and in another way less powerful. But it operates in the lower brain, and is therefore much more immediate. It's what Karl Rove uses to make his campaign work. IMHO we are called upon to acknowledge our racism, our fear of the Other (we all have it, being trapped in a mortal body) and then work to let it go...to love the Other and realize that it is really us. George W. Bush is not only my brother, he is I!!!! (shudder)

[Uzybone]

106. Wow

how cowardly.

[miss_kitty]

31. "...whatever gay people call straight people in disgust..."

i believe that would be 'breeder'...at least, that's what i've heard

[mark414]

38. yeah, that's what it is

i just couldn't think of it, as i've only been called it once or twice

[HEyHEY]

53. If you'd truly been "discriminated" against by these people

WOuld you not know the word? ;-)

[mark414]

56. i'm just saying

that terms used to negatively describe straights, whites, and/or males do not carry the same history or power that words i would use to defame others

the fact that i don't even remember the word further proves my point

[miss_kitty]

67. well hey! HEyHEY

i am not a gay or lesbian person, but i have many friends who are, and that is what i heard them use to describe those of us who were born with an seemingly uncontrollable urge to couple with members of the opposite sex for LTRs, sex and procreation.

my friend karen (lesbian), and i use it when discussing maroons. i just did not want to state it as an irrefutable fact, then find out i was talking out of my ass.

[jdj]

25. But the definitions leave out a couple of things.

A) a honkin' big military with
B) a whole lotta ammo

to back it all up with.

[Swamp Rat]

43. Ditto

JUST KIDDING! :D

I agree with your post. I was about to say the same thing.

[mark414]

44. what's your rationale?

or were you agreeing with my point?

[Swamp Rat]

48. I don't know what to agree with, except that racism is bad.

And I don't need a "rationale." I have a dictionary and a clean conscience.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

20. "Reverse racism" would imply an undoing of racism...

If only that could happen! No, there's no such thing as "reverse racism", but racism, like sexism, does not limit itself to any particular group of human beings. We are all racist and sexist more than once in our lives, though we may try very hard not to be. I do not exclude myself from this fact. I've been both victim and perpetrator.

Sometimes we're even guilty of prejudice against our own race or gender in our zeal to protect the downtrodden. It's an ugly side to humanity that we don't feel comfortable acknowledging. But until we can accept it collectively, and stop assigning righteousness to select groups of sufferers; we will not evolve beyond that state.

[Gemini Cat]

24. That's right!!

The term "reverse" coupled with either racism or discrimination, means that it (the racism or discrimination) would no longer exist.

[mark414]

22. kick

because this is an issue that should continue to be discussed

[Rabrrrrrr]

27. There is no "reverse racism" - there is only racism

Whether it's white toward black, or black toward white, or $RACE(1) toward $RACE(2), it's plain and simple racism.

Calling it "reverse racism" makes it seem like it's only the race with the most power that can "really" be a racist, and that those in the lower-power rung aren't really racists, they're just "reverse racists", whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean.

Obviously there are differences of power dynamics in the different forms of racism depending on the direction it's going - I don't deny that; obviously white racism toward blacks is a systemic, terrible problem that denies rights and life to people, and black toward white racism is basically localized and individual, not institutional, that affects few people at a time - but it's still racism. Just plain old racism.

[miss_kitty]

30. i was saying the exact thing-then the phone rang,

i voted 'no'

'reverse racism' is a nonsense term, unless by 'reverse racism' you mean 'racism in reverse' which would be 'no racism.'

to say that racism (or sexism or whatever 'ism' you pick) directed at the usual oppressors in a given situation is somehow deserving of a different name is elitist.

it's not somehow different because the target is changed, because up is now down. racism is racism full stop.

[jdj]

35. what it means to me

is that socially we are so segregated that we don't see institutionalized racism

and that we have moved sideways as a society if people have to scratch their heads and wonder if all that genocide and slavery happened or if it was really just a bunch a bitchin'

[mark414]

37. "get over it!"

slavery happened like, a hundred years ago, get over it!

(sarcasm)

this argument always bewildered me

[Rabrrrrrr]

41. I agree with you on both your points

But I'm not sure why you addressed that post to me. Do you think I don't see institutionalized racism or that I deny the genocides?

Or was it not really addressed to me specifically?

[jdj]

45. personal preference.

for me, I use the term racial tension

I don't use racism to describe the feeling I feel, and I've felt it, if I suspect another person doesn't like me because of my race as a white person. 1)when other people do it it sounds whiny and embarassing and 2)it spits in the face of the reall cruelty and brutality oppressed races have endured. It's a different category. The ism to me implies institutional power to back up the sentiment, without it it's just personal dislike with no repercussions on the disliked,except maybe discomfort, which doesn't entitle one to victim status.

[mark414]

46. that's a good way to put it

EOM

[noonwitch]

100. I agree-the term is ignorant, racism is racism

No matter what race is practicing it toward what other race.

[mark414]

103. but saying that

is ignoring the power and privilege structure that manifests itself in american society.

please note, everyone, that i am only talking about america, and how the races relate in this country.

[Rabrrrrrr]

129. No, saying it DOESN'T ignore the power and privilege structure

And I don't see anyone on this thread who has so far said that there isn't an insutitutionalized racist stream of white versus other minorities in America that is based from and continues to maintain white privelege. I've certainly talked repeatedly about the power and privilege structure, and I've not noticed anyone else denying it.

But I'm also not willing to lessen the badness of the racism that exists in non-white people toward white people, and toward other non-white people. And the racism from within one group toward others in that group.

Racism is racism, whoever does it and whoever it is directed toward. Some forms of racism lead to worse results because of power differences, but it's still the same: it's determing that someone is without value simply because of skin color, culture, or what-have-you. Doesn't matter if it's a white guy devaluing the worth of black people, or a black guy devaluing the worth of white people. Or a middle-class white guy devaluing the worth of the "white trash" living downtown, or the white people downtown devaluing the worth of the white "suits" uptown.

[mark414]

131. it's not the same though

a poor or middle class white person devaluing the worth of rich white people doesn't do anything to change the fact that that rich person holds power over them

a rich person devaluing poor people can have real effects because rich people hold the power in this country

likewise, a black guy calling me a honky does nothing because black people do not hold the power in this country. however, a white person devaluing a black person can and does have real effects, because white people control the power

[Rabrrrrrr]

139. As I keep repeatedly saying, I know that it doesn't do anything

Read my posts. I KNOW and I *ADMIT* that there are power differences.

I'm not interested in effect - obviously, you are.

I'm willing to call racism for what it is - racism; the devaluing of someone based on subjective reasons. Obviously, you aren't - you want an effect or it's not "legitimate" racism, and you believe that racism is only racism if perpetrated on someone of a lower power rank. And it appears that for you, the only effect that matters is economic. Nothing about spiritual, emotional, psychological, etc.

I'm saying to you that racism is BAD whether it's from a higher to lower power, a lower to higher power, or a same power to same power.

Because not all white people have power; not all minorities are powerless.

If you devalue someone because of their race, it's racism. Period. It's morally wrong. 100 eprcent. Ipso facto. In my opinion. Obviously, your opinion differs.

I don't understand why you have to involve the power issue in the definition.

And before you tell me, yet again, that a power divide exists - please, please, please note that I have repeatedly agreed with you on that. The existance of the power divide is intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer ('cept freepers, of course, but then they don't really "observe" anything, do they?)

[Rabrrrrrr]

29. And responding to your power issues

and note, I also hit this a bit in my first post, so read that as well.

You said the issues of racism, classism, sexism, etc. imply that one group holds power over another and uses said examples as justifications for their oppression. the oppressed classes cannot use said -ism's in reverse because the oppressed classes hold no power over their oppressors.

Note that I agree with you mostly on this one - as I said in the other post, white toward black (or whatever) racism tends to affect large groups of people, whereas the black (or whatever) toward white racism tends to be localized and immediate.

meaning - in America, I think it's a pretty safe assumption to say tht the white people are still in charge, and thus the effects of white racism tend to be more nasty, because, as you said, the whites hold power over others.

however, that does not mean that other races cannot be racist - there are power issues and differences of all sorts, in all situations. it's not that white people ALWAYS have ALL the power. On average, yes, they do.

But, in the situation of, say, a white guy being held at gunpoint by a black guy, the black guy is the guy with the power. Or the white guy whose Beamer breaks down in a poor black neighborhood and finds himself face to face with a group of tire iron wielding thugs. Or the Puerto Rican woman who gets lost in a Dominican neighborhood. Or the white guy who is trying to order food in a Dominican-owned restaurant. Blah blah blah, and so on and so on.

So, please don't get the impression that I think in any way that white people don't have privilege - we do. I'm just correcting your assumption that in all situations, all times, the white people have the power, and the non-whites are powerless. There is racism in both directions - and all racism is equally wrong. The sad part is, that the racism of whites towards others, because the whites are in power, has a more profound effect.

[mark414]

32. i never said in all situations

those are specific situations, in which the power is not a result of skin color.

i find it curious, however, that you bring up black guys with guns holding up white guys, or actually had the nerve to write the words "tire iron wielding thugs". descriptions like this only serve to further demonize and enhance stereotypes of young black men as criminals and as you so eloquently put it, "thugs"

while you may have had no intention of causing any harm, you only further my point.

why couldn't you have said one white guy in a board room of 10 black people or something?

white people hold up white people with guns, and i'm sure plenty of white "thugs" have beat up other white people with tire irons before.

i'm not even sure how to really respond to this...i just can't believe you used that as an example

[Rabrrrrrr]

39. I said it because I was trying to set up situations of great

differences in power.

armed versus unarmed, in those cases. Certainly not limited to such cases, however.

And since the issue at hand is about racism, I saw no need to bring up white on white violence. In the grand schemes of things, most violence that is perpetrated (individual violence, that is) tends toward same-race: white on white, black on black, asian on asian, etc.

And I cuold have offere the example of being the only male in a classroom of women, or being a white guy in a classroom full of african-americans and other minorities - situations I've been in, and have witnessed racism, both against me, and minority-versus-minority (my seminary had a strong tendancy toward what I call "pain wars" - the constant need to out-trump others with the amount of pain one has suffered).

Perhaps I could have been more judicious, but I'm also tired and had a hard time thinking of examples.

But if you prefer to get caught up in the rather irrelevant details of a few examples chosen from a field of thousands of available ones, and not address the actual issue I was raising, go right ahead.

[Swamp Rat]

47. Other

While I agree that racism is a plague that has afflicted humankind for eons, I don't agree with your definitions, polarizations nor your logic.

If you feel this badly about it, why don't you dedicate your life to living in the ghetto helping the poor?

[mark414]

50. whoever said i feel bad about it?

guilt does not solve anything, it only gets in the way

guilt causes people to say things like "oh i need to help those poor black people because i'm white"

i don't feel guilty for being white, i don't feel any guilt

and i didn't know that being black meant you were poor and lived in the ghetto

don't just reject what i say without really thinking about it


my goal is not to "help" black people, it is to get other white people to realize their powers and privileges and the ways in which they manifest themselves in everyday life. until white people can come to grips with that then this will still be an issue.

[Swamp Rat]

60. You did

If you didn't feel bad about it you wouldn't have started this thread and answered everyone's post so assiduously - this is my educated guess.

"and i didn't know that being black meant you were poor and lived in the ghetto" - Hey, you're the one talking about poor blacks and rich whites. If you don't like the term "ghetto" we can use "favela."

"my goal is not to "help" black people, it is to get other white people to realize their powers and privileges and the ways in which they manifest themselves in everyday life. until white people can come to grips with that then this will still be an issue." - Good luck! REALLY! While I appreciate your stance against discrimination (we probably agree), I think if you are trying to convince "white people" to change their ways, you better start with the freepers.

Perhaps a better angle would be to drop the stereotypes of "black" and "white" and work from within an economic-class paradigm. I think you'll be hard-pressed to get the wealthy to share no matter who they are.

[MissAnnThrope]

82. Did you know...

The word ghetto is white in origin? It comes from the parts of Europe where Jews were forced to live, as recently as WWII. It started way back in the middle ages in Italy.

I'm just trying to point out how ridiculous this thread is getting. I can't agree more with your last paragraph.

[Swamp Rat]

127. Italian

I don't know about calling it "white" but the etymology traces it to Italy. The first recorded written use of the word occurred in 1611 in Coryat’s Crudities, in which he describes "the place where the whole fraternity of the lews (sic) dwelleth together, which is called the Ghetto."

Here's a quick Google (written by Kim Pearson):

(snip)

Semantics

Early in its history, the word "ghetto" denoted a walled-off and gated section in a city to which Jews were restricted. The word was chiefly used in Italy, especially in port cities like Venice in which large populations of Jews—many of whom were traders and money lenders—lived. Because they were viewed as cultural minorities due to their non-Christian beliefs in a Renaissance Christian environment, Jews were placed under strict regulations throughout many European cities. They were forced to live together in the ghetto to prevent their roaming about at night (Calimani 1).

Cultural Adoption

"Ghetto" was a term mostly used and associated with Europe until Word War II, when the term entered American culture. It quickly acquired a negative connotation, describing an overpopulated, poor section of a city, usually inhabited by African Americans, Chicanos, or other co-cultures as a result of economic or social pressures. Soon after the mainstream adoption of this meaning, the term also came to signify any mode of sub-standard living or working as the result of stereotype or biased treatment. For example, prior to the women’s movement, women often found themselves in "job ghettos."

(snip)

*****

The other word I suggested in this post is "favela," the word used by Brazilians to denote extremely impoverished neighborhoods. I used to live on the edge of one.

[mark414]

130. i understand that

and technically, italians aren't white. neither are greeks, or the irish, or a lot of other people who are called "white"

but we (i'm irish) still benefit from the privileges that come with just looking white in this country

[Swamp Rat]

132. Yes

I think you've exhausted this point already. Good luck on your mission. We'll all benefit from an equitable socety.

[mark414]

133. sorry

it just seems that people keep trying to change the subject on a technicality; that or accuse me of encouraging hatred towards white people...i'm frustrated

[Swamp Rat]

134. That's OK

Take a break from this topic for a little while and come back to it with another perspective and insight. Don't worry about this particular thread anymore. Turn your frustration into a narrative that will enlighten even the most enlightened and re-post another day. I suggest you post it in "Editorials and Other Articles," "General Discussions" or "Civil Rights/Equality/Privacy." The latter is probably the best place to start. I've always assumed the "Lounge" to be a place to post less weighty subjects, so perhaps folks have reacted, operating from this perspective.

[Christof]

49. Yes it does.

Just watch some of the comedy shows that are out there. You'll see it.

[mark414]

51. did you read a single thing i wrote?

aww boo hoo is the white kid sad because dave chappelle made fun of other white people?

comparing a comedy show to years of bondage and oppression...nice

"I am sitting in my University of Texas office, talking to a very bright and very conservative white student about affirmative action in college admissions, which he opposes and I support.

The student says he wants a level playing field with no unearned advantages for anyone. I ask him whether he thinks that in the United States being white has advantages. Have either of us, I ask, ever benefited from being white in a world run mostly by white people? Yes, he concedes, there is something real and tangible we could call white privilege.

So, if we live in a world of white privilege--unearned white privilege--how does that affect your notion of a level playing field? I ask.

He paused for a moment and said, "That really doesn't matter."

That statement, I suggested to him, reveals the ultimate white privilege: the privilege to acknowledge you have unearned privilege but ignore what it means."

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivilege.htm

read it

[Christof]

52. Where do you get off thinking I'm white?

I'm not white.

:eyes:

[mark414]

54. sorry for making assumptions

but the only complaints towards comedy shows i've ever seen is by other white people. is that me making generalizations? yes.

you have my full and most sincere apology

[Christof]

55. Don't worry about it.

[HEyHEY]

58. Judging by the results of your poll - and this being a liberal site

I think it's you who isn't reading what others have written. Maybe you should get off the campus for a little bit.

[mark414]

66. get off campus?

that's funny, cause i just had my 3rd day of school today.

and guess what? i'm not taking any classes this semester that discuss race or anything!

and don't forget, even states that banned slavery still discriminated heavily against blacks. just because you're a liberal doesn't free you from prejudice

christ, a lot of these arguments sound like they could made by freepers

[HEyHEY]

69. insinuating I'm a freeper?

HA! Desparation is a stinky cologne

[mark414]

71. i know you're a strong liberal

i've seen plenty of your posts on here

but these are the exact same arguments i hear from someone denouncing affirmative action or something similar

[HEyHEY]

72. Well, I'm not against affirm action

I'd liek to make that clear

[mark414]

74. i didn't say you were

i'm just saying the arguments are similar

"Affirmative Action is supposed to be a program designed to end racism, but isn't it really justifying racism by it's own actions. Its policies totally judge people solely on skin color and gender. That is discrimination in itself. Is discrimination the solution to resolving past discrimination? No, it's not. No program can be considered good when it hurts others. Affirmative Action tried to help minorities and women, but in the process, reverse discrimination has taken place. Now, white males are discriminated against. This can not be an affirmative program if there is a form of discrimination involved. Instead of choosing a candidate for a job or for school admission, because of one's color or gender, it should be because of their talents and abilities. The best any colored male or female should be selected for the job, or to get accepted into school. Why should some people get special preferences over others? It just isn't correct. There should be no special treatments, and no special preferences given to people. Everyone has the opportunity to advance in this country, you just have to take the initiative."

from an anti-affirmative action site

now, go back and read other's arguments and you will find similarities, not in that they both oppose AA, but just in perpetuating the idea of reverse racism

[MissAnnThrope]

57. Are You Kidding?

There is no such thing as reverse racism. Racism is racism, period. According to dictionary.com the definition of racism is as follows:

rac·ism Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

OK, nowhere in that definition does it say that whites who are prejudice against other races have a patent on the word. It doesn't matter what your race is, if you hate people based on their race, it's racism. Period. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

The same goes for sexism. Women can be sexist toward men and it's a trend that's been growing. It's just more politically correct and considered more evolved by imbeciles than sexism by men toward women.

I don't know what planet you're living on these days, but if you look it up, people who immigrate to the US from the Caribbean tend to have a higher per capita income than their middle class neighbors of any race. So forget that whites have the patent on privilege. It doesn't cut it anymore. As far as education goes, white kids from middle class families are going to have more trouble getting a decent college education than those who are underprivileged. Try to find scholarships and grants for middle class kids. Have you seen what 4 years in a university costs anymore? Most parents are going to need a third mortgage to send just one kid to school in the near future.

Getting a decent job? Not anymore, not with the economy the way it is. I'm a white, middle aged, former middle class, educated woman. I'm qualified for a number of positions. Instead of doing decent work at a decent wage, I'm constantly told I'm overqualified and end up taking low paying crap jobs in fields like retail, because they'll take anyone who can actually make change. They don't care about your level of education or if you're too smart for the job. It's a sad state of affairs when you test too high for a job you're trying to get.

What is a safe neighborhood anymore? I have a friend who couldn't wait to move out her her apartment in lower Harlem, as she felt the neighborhood wasn't safe. She moved into an apartment in "safe" midtown Manhattan. She was burgled twice in her first six months in her new safe neighborhood. It had never happened in Harlem. Unless you're in a town or area that is run over by gangs, safe is truly a perception in my opinion. There are poor neighborhoods in this country with lower crime rates than the wealthy "white" suburbs around them. I used to live in what was considered the safest county in NJ. It was middle class white kids who needed money to score drugs that were breaking into people's houses to steal. Not poor people.

Which reminds me, I didn't address your statement on classism. According to dictionary.com, it is bias based on social or economic class. Trust me when I say rich and middle class people are less likely to actually look down on people who don't have as much as they do as those who don't have as much are likely to look down on those who do have things. The poor are bias against the middle class, the middle class tends to be bias against the rich, etc. It's mostly jealousy, but it goes on. Come on. Think of the glee among the masses when someone really rich like Ken Lay gets busted.

Now, if you feel being white keeps you from being stopped by the police at random, well, it's obvious you're not a woman. You didn't have to mention you were a man. Cops will stop women for no good reason, just to check us out. Especially when we're young and cute.

Anyway, I have to disagree with you on just about every point. You really do need to crack open the dictionary once in a while, instead of falling into the trap of political correctness and not bothering to think on your own about the actual meanings of words. When you put forth arguments such as what you're saying, you're trying to justify prejudice, claiming because it's a not a privileged white man doing it, it's ok. It's not OK in any circumstance.

[HEyHEY]

59. No! You don't get it if a text book redefines a word it must be so!

See, as long as we publish it, or it becomes popculture. We can change the meaning of so many words.
And if we look to the past for blame and payback instead of looking to the future for a better world...we can change those meanings even easier!

[mark414]

62. that's ridiculous

i AM looking to the future, but as it goes, those who don't know history are condemned to repeat it.

in AMERICA, we still see the effects of slavery today. you cannot talk about this issue without examining how past events have shaped the present.

[HEyHEY]

64. Yes, but often the events of the past are dwelled on

to the point where "payback" takes precident over justice.
Just because a bunch of pricks made some crap poking fun at black people in 1930, doesn't nmake it okay to poke fun at white people in 2004.

It's a perpetuate machine of hatred you're endorsing

[MissAnnThrope]

81. I Wish You Were Joking

But I know you're not. What you're saying is very true.

Kids in this country anymore are being taught in school to be ashamed of the fact they're born white. How even those who didn't even have families here until well after the Civil War are still responsible for slavery, by virtue of being born white. I thought it was an anomaly in my cousin's kid's school district. But talking to people from other parts of the state with kids, it's going on all over. While I've always preferred to discriminate against people based on personality, I do realize there are people who discriminate because of race, religion and color. Then again, race has come to mean color in this country, to those who can't make fine distinctions. Race actually means nationality.

I worked in an office back in the 80s that was very interesting. The women from South American hated the women from Puerto Rico and vice versa. We had one woman from the Ivory Coast and another from Ghana who hated each other, based on where they were from. From the one, I heard how women from Ghana all thought who they were, as they had all undergone some operation and as a result, the men wanted women from the Ivory Coast, who were less uptight about sex. From the woman from Ghana, I'd hear that women from the Ivory Coast were all sluts. It wasn't until a few years later I heard about clitorectomies. My sister had a college roommate who was black, but because her skin was on the pale side, she suffered prejudice from the other black kids, as she wasn't black enough. The girl had to hang out with the white students, as they were the only ones who would accept her as a person. But no, racism only exists if a white person is doing it.

This country is going insane.

[mark414]

61. thanks for the 8th definition of "racism"

and you completely ignore my point

i'm not justifying prejudice, and i never have denied that prejudice goes both ways.

since we're repeating things, i'll repeat this:

"I am sitting in my University of Texas office, talking to a very bright and very conservative white student about affirmative action in college admissions, which he opposes and I support.

The student says he wants a level playing field with no unearned advantages for anyone. I ask him whether he thinks that in the United States being white has advantages. Have either of us, I ask, ever benefited from being white in a world run mostly by white people? Yes, he concedes, there is something real and tangible we could call white privilege.

So, if we live in a world of white privilege--unearned white privilege--how does that affect your notion of a level playing field? I ask.

He paused for a moment and said, "That really doesn't matter."

That statement, I suggested to him, reveals the ultimate white privilege: the privilege to acknowledge you have unearned privilege but ignore what it means."

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/whiteprivilege.htm

[HEyHEY]

63. Okay so because this guy has been privledged because of his skin

It is okay to make fun of him because of his race.
There are plenty of poor white people out there that will never see one ounce of "privlege"
I'm not denyine that it exsists. But it doesn't make racism towards white people socially acceptable.

[mark414]

65. you're putting words into my mouth and twisting the rest around

i'm not saying prejudice towards white people is acceptable! i have never said that nor do i believe that it is acceptable.

but refusing to acknowledge that as a white AMERICAN, you don't have certain perks and privileges that come just from the color of your skin is also not acceptable

and there are plenty of poor white people out there who still have more privilege than rich black people.

the great majority of poor white people don't live in "ghettos" or high crime neighborhoods, they typically live in middle class neighborhoods

[HEyHEY]

68. Care to back that up?

I've been reading your arguments and that's pretty well the conclusion. You're saying that because white people are "Privleged" and are the ruling group - that you cannot be racist to them...because YOU, or your prof, has redefined the word as one meaning an institution based on widespread discrimination perpetrated by those of the ruling race.
There is no logic behind the argument. Even if you threw the word "Institutionalized' in front of racism, I still fail to see how it is impossible to be racist towards the ruling race.
If you are judging someone based on race - you're a dick plain and simple, and I don't care how much shit has gone on in the past.
My MOther's family is from Belfast,Northern Ireland. The Irish (catholics especially), have been stomped on by the British for centuries, But if I went on TV and said I hate Protestant/English people I would be seen as a prick. The Protestant are the ruling class in Northern Ireland, and I still wouldn't be able to get away with it.
Seeing as how all humanity in the Western world is based on the same right and wrong. THere should be no acception made in the US

[mark414]

70. yes, fuck white people

let's just round them all up and throw them in the ocean!

my prof? i've been in school for 3 days of my first year ever, and have never had a single "prof" talk to me about anything even remotely related to this subject.

i NEVER said it's ok for black people to hate white people

what i DID say is that it is not ok for white people to ignore the fact that there are benefits that come just from being white.

[HEyHEY]

73. We're on the wrong track

I'm not arguing that white privlege is a reality. I'm just don't see how that makes "reverse racism" impossible

[mark414]

75. read this

Giving up something you did not ask for is hard. Is it a white person's fault that they are white? A man's fault that he is a man? These are things beyond a person's control. We can not control our race or our gender, but we can control how we use the power it gives us. People in these situations don't even realize the privilege their skin color or gender affords them. How could they? Unless they are like my friend and associate with people of color, they wouldn't realize that people of color and women are treated differently. They essentially have the privilege of never having to think about race or gender because it is not an issue in their lives.

http://www.mstl.org/minutes/weekly-update/20011030.html

EDIT: i would really like to continue this conversation but i need to go to bed. i really encourage you to google some information about what i am talking about read what other people have to say about it, as i am hardly scholarly enough to fully emphasize and articulate the point i am trying to make. please don't just write me or my argument off. please be willing to read some other viewpoints and consider how they can both support and refute your claims. i hope you know there are no hard feelings, this is just an issue about which i get very frustrated because it's something that took me FOREVER to fully understand. i did a lot of personal evaluation and read a lot of arguments from both sides before i came to my own conclusion, WITHOUT the help of a professor or really anyone else for that matter. good night.

[HEyHEY]

76. I don't think one person is arguing that point

I agree with all she has written.
But what still hasn't been answered is: how does that make it impossible for a black man to be racist towards white people?
ANSWER THE QUESTION

AND I FULLY UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF WHITE PRIVLEGE. I just don't understand why, to you, it creates a dynamic where it is impossible for minorities to be racist towards people.

[mark414]

77. one last one before i go to bed

because racism and discrimination are TWO different things. we have to separate them because they play out in two very different ways.

discrimination and prejudice comes from the individual
-ism's are institutional

heterosexism is the institutional denial of rights to LGBT citizens by heterosexuals

classism is the institution the rich grabbing power and using that power because they believe their wealth grants them said power

sexism is the institution by which men try to control and objectify women because men see themselves as stronger than women, physically, intellectually, etc.

and racism is the institution by which those in power, in america's case white people, hold other races down because they are seen as inferior or unequal

thus, someone who is on the receiving end of the -ism is not capable of projecting that same -ism back on those that would oppress them. they are fully capable, however, of feelings of prejudice and even hatred towards their oppressors.

for the first few years of my life i was the son of working class parents; as time went by they saved up money to go back to school and i became a middle class kid. i have a general contempt (deserved or not) of rich people, but that doesn't suddenly mean that i will be able to exert power over those rich people, as i am not a privileged member of that economic class. the same holds true for racism. a black man is more than capable of kicking my ass because he hates white people, but in the grand scheme of things, it will do nothing to help him rise out of the oppression he faces. i, on the other hand, can easily relate with the white people who are in power because i am one of them. they relate to me and would prefer me over the black man anyday.

and i can't stress it enough that i am only talking about america, and the dynamic that our history bestows upon us. my message is not geared towards black people to give them a reason or an excuse to hate white people; rather, it is geared towards other white people who may not fully understand or even believe in their white privilege.

[MissAnnThrope]

79. I'm Not Missing Your Point

The point you were trying to make was, that when someone who isn't white is racist, it's not racism, it's discrimination. I really do hate to tell you this, but racism is a form of discrimination. As is sexism, classism, etc. To try to redefine the word is stupid and falls into the category of political correctness, which is actually a fascist idea, first implemented by the Italian government under Mussolini.

I read this article. I really don't agree with Affirmative Action. I feel it's something that had it's day but is no longer necessary in this country. Once upon a time, especially in the south, it was needed. But no more. And I do feel someone should get into college or get a job based on merit and intelligence, not on the color of their skin. As a matter of fact, I don't even think race should be on applications for either. Remember, Affirmative Action is supposed to cover women too. I don't want to hear I got a job because they needed to fill their quota of women. I want to hear I got it on my own merits. Trust me, if it was done away with tomorrow, you wouldn't see minorities and women disappearing from the workforce and being replaced by white men.

I read the article. That is one man's opinion. He didn't grow up in New Jersey, where I did, in a racially mixed middle class neighborhood. Where no one cared if their next door neighbor was black or Hispanic. I have had black and Hispanic bosses. I have met and had professors and instructors who are black, Hispanic and a few other colors and races. This guy just doesn't live right, or thanks to his own prejudices that he doesn't want to show, chooses white institutions when he applies for a new professorship.

Now, I won't say what he says about the security guard isn't true. I've seen it. But in general and I have no idea why, when I go into shops where there are security guards who do that, I tend to be followed around. Perhaps they sense my smattering of African blood, even though I look lily white. Or perhaps I just look suspicious. You decide.

[mark414]

87. so now my argue is fascist in nature?

i agree that people should get into school/get jobs based on merit. but to only do it that way would imply that we are on a level playing field. unfortunately, this is not true. and how dare you imply that the man who wrote that article "chose" all white institutions. the fact of the matter is, he'd be hard pressed to find universities and other prominent public or private institutions that aren't run by mostly or all white people.

he acknowledged his own prejudices as i acknowledge mine. but i am working hard to overcome and struggle through my prejudices.

there have been studies done, where they sent in applications from people with "black sounding" names and people with "white sounding" names, and the great majority of the time the "black names" are never called in for an interview, while the "white names" are highly more likely to be called in. i'm too tired and i'm really fucking frustrated to dive into this any further. i'm really disappointed in all these DU'ers who are trying to justify their own hidden prejudices.

[Quetzal]

78. Yikes

It looks like I stumbled upon heated thread.

I am not in the mood for a flamewar, but I am currenty reading a book entitled "Why are all the Black kids sitting together in the Cafeteria?"

It doesn't just look at the black-white picture - it also analyzes the relationship of asians, latinos, and other ethnicities into the spectrum of race relations in America.

It has helped me answer some of the questions that have been discussed in this thread.

Why are all the Black kids sitting together in the Cafeteria?



Many of the user reviews have been critical of the book - but I wonder how they would react if they sat in one of her group discussions?

And you must read the entire book before drawing an intelectual opinion on it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

80. There is no such thing as "reverse racism"; there is merely racism.

And one may be a member of ANY ethnic group and be a racist. Racism is hatred of a person or group of people for reasons of culture, ethnicity, and/or skin colour. Racism has nothing to do with power and privilege and everything to do with resentment and fear.

It's been somewhat mitigated by the circumstances of modern society, but a certain tendency to behave in a manner that can be classified as "racist" seems to be almost hard-wired into humans. This seems to stem from our nature as territorial social primates...for some time, the unit of social organisation was the tribe, and one sure marker that someone else was not of one's tribe was the fact that he or she looked different, spoke differently, etc. Fear of the "other" seems to be at the root of racism ("other" being "not-like-us"), and one can find it in people of any racial group you care to name.

You seem to be defining the term politically, when there is both more and less to it than that.

[rbnyc]

83. Power is the key. Prejudice plus Power = racism/sexism…

Otherwise, it’s just prejudice, which also sucks.

[Cheswick2.0]

84. You are right and I can't believe all the people that voted

for 1.

There is no such thing as reverse racism.

[mark414]

88. thank you

i am extremely disappointed in my fellow DU'ers

apparently some people think that being of liberal or progressive thought makes you immune to prejudice or unintended racism

when i was still in high school i was against AA and "quotas" or whatever you want to call it because i didn't yet have a full or even capable understanding of the whole power and privilege structure. in the last couple years though, i've managed to stumble across a few articles, books, etc. from both sides of the aisle and i came up with my conclusion.

this is really sad, but mostly really frustrating, and shows just how much more work we have to do.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

85. racism exists in every race/ethnicity towards other races/ethnicities

however it lacks power when it exists in minorities

[liontamer]

89. why call it reverse racism

It is just racism, because you are talking about prejudice based on race. Prejudice and stereotyping are the main issue. However in groups that are weaker, the prejudice they have against more powerful groups doesn't damage the more powerful groups because they are by definition powerful

[mark414]

90. because that's what i hear most often to describe it

but like you said, prejudice against the more powerful groups doesn't damage the more powerful groups

that's exactly the point i'm trying to make

i'm not being PC, i hate being PC. i'm just recognizing the reality that we live in and trying to get other white people to understand it.

[Terran]

97. These last two posts (85 and 89)

get at an important dynamic (and here's my opinion on this issue):

Racism and prejudice (and they are not the same thing) have some relation to the dynamics of power exercised by different groups over one another. Let's look, specifically, at whites and African-Americans. A lot of white Americans are racist, i.e., they hold a strictly irrational belief that they are better than all Black people. This, to me, is the definition of racism: there has to be this element of irrationality about it, i.e., there is no reason for holding such a belief, it's just "there"--kind of like republicanism, it gets passed like a virus from generation to generation.

Now, some African-Americans are "prejudiced" against white people. Generally, they don't believe that they are better than white people (I have never met a Black person who held that particular belief) because to think that is baseless and irrational. Their anger and prejudice flow solely from the history of the interaction of white people with Black people, i.e., the irrationality (and concomitant violence and hatred) displayed by many white people inspires a reaction among some Black people, which is: hate, prejudice, violence. So, Black hatred of white people appears to be, on the surface, racism, but it is not; because it has a rational source, a rational explanation, a reason for being that I don't believe can be discounted. I'm not saying it's right to feel that way; but it's understandable and therefore rational. White racism is not understandable, and therefore it is not rational.

To be honest, I don't think you can really say that Black people cannot be racist in the true sense of the word. Humans are capable of all kinds of strange behavior, especially when mental illness is involved. But I have never met such a person, and frankly find the idea extremely unlikely. That historical and cultural backdrop is always present, and it will always (well, one hopes not always) provide reason by itself for Black people to hate and distrust white people, without forcing them to be irrational about it. Most white people do NOT understand that this context of mistrust is reinforced on an almost daily basis. I have been partnered with an African-American male for 18 years, and I've seen it in action constantly. So when Black people make fun of white people, it is, if anything, the very opposite of racism; it's an attempt to deal with an intolerable situation in a humorous way. Generally, considering the many horrible things that have been done to Black Americans over time, especially since slavery ended, white people should be relieved when all Black people do is make fun of them. It could be a lot worse.

One more observation, something interesting my partner has related to me over time: so-called Black racism is a new thing, relatively speaking. There used to be a culture of tolerance among African-Americans for the often-unpleasant foibles of white people. The attitude was, "Oh, you know those white folks, they're just crazy, that's why they do those things." This is contemporaneous with the era when Black women often raised white children, cooked food for white people, kept their homes, in short made themselves the indispensable help-mates to white culture. A good fictional illustration of that culture is in the film "The Color Purple". That culture no longer exists, and since the 1960's younger Black people are not so tolerant of white irrationality. The rise of that sentiment is what in fact people today call "Black racism".

Dirk

[mark414]

98. thank for putting it so eloquently

what i mean by racism of course is not the idea but the power structure behind it. in that context, i don't believe that a black man could be racist towards me because he does not belong to that power structure, however, i do, whether i like it or not.

i think that's what a lot of white people have the hardest time understanding, that we get these privileges whether we ask for them or not and we get these privileges whether we are aware of it or not. some might accuse me of having white liberal guilt but i have no guilt at all; i don't wish i wasn't white, hell, i probably wouldn't be where i am in life if i wasn't. but recognizing my power and privilege allows me to be an ally to the cause and the struggle in trying to obtain equal civil rights that many non white americans still don't see today. granted we have gotten a lot better even since the 60's, but we still have a long way to go. and until other white people acknowledge the power structure we won't make any progress.

as i said in an earlier post, my rants are not directed at black people. i am not trying to help black people. to do that is insulting and offensive and implies that black people are not capable of taking care of themselves. rather i direct this towards my white brethren in order to create a more conscious and aware society.

but you already understand this so i should probably stop lecturing!

[Terran]

102. Thanks Mark. Actually I don't think it's power

that creates racism. What I meant to say is that the history of violence by white people against Black people exists because of the power structure; but I don't believe that power imbalance causes racism--it just encourages and/or allows it to flourish. I truly believe that racism is purely a form of mental illness, a neurosis of some as-yet undiagnosed kind. The seat of racism is pure irrationality; power just lets it grow and blossom into bloodshed and misery.

[liontamer]

116. but prejudice is at its root irrational

I can hate the white male sitting next to me because his ancestors may have enslaved black people, but that's not rational. He wasn't there. Any judgement I make about his morality based on the color of his skin is prejudice. I'm judging him not based on who he is but on what he looks like. That is racism. He doesn't suffer from my racism, but it's there none the less. Racism at its core has nothing to do with power dynamics, it's about prejudice.

[Terran]

124. Ok, let's sort this out (and you're right)

My bad: "prejudice" (in its relevant meaning) according to Merriam-Webster does contain the irrational element of which I spoke. Therefore "prejudice" does equal "racism". So allow me to substitute. African-Americans may be "discriminatory" or "biased" against whites, but I would assert that they are generally not irrationally racist or prejudiced the way whites can be.

Now then: I distinguish between bias/discrimination and racism/prejudice. Bias may not be 'fair' when applied to an entire group, but in the case of African-American bias toward whites, it is both based in fact and carries with it a will to survival--which makes it entirely rational...just not nice. Bias, to me, is to some extent an evolutionary survival trait. The ability to recognize one's peers and separate them from those that are different is a trait animals certainly use to good effect. Maybe primitive humans needed it too. I'm not saying it's a good thing now, just that it comes from an original biological need.

So, when you say (and I'm assuming you are white) that it would be irrational of you to "hate" a white male because his ancestors enslaved Africans, you fail to encompass the whole situation. The context of alleged "Black racism" is hardly even about slavery, since no one living personally recalls slavery. It's about the ongoing oppression of Black people that is happening today and has been continuous since 1863. Therefore, while it's not fair to feel negatively toward an individual white man, it isn't irrational, because of the mountains of reasons white people have give Black people over time to hate them.

And keep in mind there are many shades of thought here; this discussion started out by talking about Black people making fun of white people--not hating white people. I think most Black people are naturally cautious around unknown white people, using the image you provided of some random white man sitting next to you. They're cautious because they never know whether any given white person will be a racist or not. That's a form of bias, that caution is, and it is entirely understandable. I don't think the "hate" usually comes along until well after all the cards have been revealed.

[liontamer]

135. It is irrational for one to have negative feelings

toward an individual white man. Because the negative feeling is not properly directed at the individual it is directed toward a system that gives that individual an advantage based on superficial traits. My point is that the exact same mechanism that makes white people cautious around unknown black people underlies the caution that some black people feel around white people. The rationalization is different but it comes down to "those people are dangerous because they are different."

Hatred for an individual racist white person is different than hatred toward white people for racism one experienced. The same goes for humor. Mocking one person of a different race because of his or her individual actions is different than mocking an entire ethnic group because of characteristics you perceive them possessing. Even if there are some members of the ethnic group that really have those characteristics.

[redqueen]

91. Gah... I hate that it's even called 'reverse' racism...

as if it has a direction or something.

YES, racism exists in all countries & cultures, all 'races', if you will.

[mark414]

93. take the time

to read again what i wrote, as well as what i wrote in some of my other posts as well

[redqueen]

104. I read most of the thread

this qualification you've invented about power is a meaningless distraction. Racism is racism.

As for institutionalized racism, in THIS country certainly it's the province of white people. However, I hope you're not arguing that institutionalized racism is solely the province of white people. You can make a case for institutionalized sexism never having been practiced by females, but even that is likely to be challenged with tales of amazon women and the like.

[mark414]

111. that's what i think people aren't understanding

i'm not talking about the entire world, i am only talking about america.

in other countries there is more than enough evidence of the power structures being reversed.

no, i am speaking solely and strictly of the united states.

[redqueen]

115. That still doesn't make it 'reverse' racism

Racism is racism, irrespective of any power imbalance or institutionalized racism or whatever other conditions exist.

[mark414]

118. you said it yourself

racism is institutionalized in this country, and provides for a massive power imbalance

it is not possible for those not belonging to the institution to reflect the results of the institution back at their oppressors.

[redqueen]

121. The results of institutionalized racism are not the same as racism itself.

You seem to insist on conflating the two.

Why, I have no idea.

[mark414]

123. because

that's how it is in our society

were it different i would not make the case for doing so.

but america is where we live and these are the real problems we face.

[redqueen]

126. No, it isn't

In our society, racism != the effects of institutionalized racism.

Nor is it the case in any other country.

Sheesh.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

92. No - Like Jeru the Damaja said "I don't have the power to be a racist"

[mark414]

94. yes!

it's sad that my black friends already have a full understanding of this subject as they live it everyday. but it takes a white kid like me for anyone to even slightly pay attention or make an argument against it.

though, by the looks of some of these posts, if i said i was black, i'm sure i would've been called a racist more than a few times by now.

i must be one of those self hating whites! haha

[Spider Jerusalem]

95. Note to the ignorant:

RACISM is not about power. DISCRIMINATION, and enforcement of same, IS about power. Anyone can be a racist; not everyone has the power to use their racism to discriminate on a broad socio-cultural scale. Please try to learn the difference, because you're just making yourselves look silly...

[mark414]

96. um...

you've got your definition backwards

-ism's ARE based on power

for example, RACISM is what prevented black people from voting in the south for 100 years after the civil war.

DISCRIMINATION is a black man calling me a stupid a honky because he doesn't like the color of my skin

but that black man cannot enforce his discrimination in a way that keeps me from advancing myself in a predominantly white controlled society. that is the power that i hold over him, due to the institution that IS racism.

perhaps it is you that is ignorant. being a liberal doesn't make you immune to prejudice.

i had no idea there'd be this much backlash; but then again people who hold power either aren't aware of it or don't want to give it up.

[Spider Jerusalem]

99. Follow the advice of a previous poster...

and BUY A DICTIONARY. You're quibbling over the meaning of words whose meanings you seem to be rather ignorant of. And if you don't know what the words MEAN, you shouldn't attempt to use them to engage in debate, since they have accepted definitions which are demonstrably NOT your definitions, AND one of the prerequisites for debate is that all parties agree to the meaning of the terms used. Else any rational discussion is impossible.

Discrimination: "No Irish Need Apply." "Colored to the back of the bus." "Restricted housing."

Racism: "I hate (pick your ethnic group)."

Large-scale, socially accepted discrimination = racism + power.

[mark414]

101. i'm irish

and at one point even the irish used to get called nigger. but to compare NINA and the back of the bus is ludicrous. the color of my skin doesn't give away the fact that i am irish. those whites in power don't see an irish kid, they see a white kid. the same cannot be said, even for a black irishman, because they still see black.

it is strict dictionary definitions that people use to try to justify their ignorance.

i am not speaking of strict definitions. i am speaking of power structures and how stupidity and ignorance instill themselves in our every day lives.

[Spider Jerusalem]

108. My great-great grandfather came over from Cork in 1849.

So I don't need you to tell me how the Irish were treated, thank you. (And the "Black Irish" are still white...like Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon.)

And it wasn't a comparison, it was an ILLUSTRATION of discrimination through the use of examples.

"Power structures" arise from whichever group comprises a coherent social majority. In the US as a whole, the "power structure" has traditionally consisted of Anglo-Saxon Protestants. In Boston and Chicago, Irish Catholics. In the past twenty or thirty years in places like Atlanta and Detroit, African-Americans. Things aren't as monolithic as you make them out, and you commit the grievous error of treating racism as a uniquely American problem, from an American perspective, when it is NOT solely an American problem.

And if you want to throw definition and meaning out the window, then you can't really be talking about ANYTHING, in which case there's no point in continuing this conversation.

[mark414]

110. i'm not saying it's uniquely american

but i am saying that power structures are different in every different country. i am speaking only of the way these issues RELATE to americans.

and what are you talking about, reagan and nixon? i'm talking about BLACK irishman, irish people with dark skin, and they do exist. ever heard of thin lizzy? their singer was a black irishman. reagan and nixon do not look remotely black, therefore nobody thinks of them as black, whether they are or not. technically i am not white either, but my skin gives that appearance thus i get the privileges that come with looking like this.

i've been in situations with latino friends who look as white as me, had to sit there and listen to some asshole make some mexican jokes. more often than not, said asshole probably went home regretting it (one of my friends is a 2nd degree black belt in jiu jitsu, he's half mexican, but like i said looks as white as me).

and if you want to talk about detroit, let us not forget the fact that the great majority of black people in detroit live in broke ass neighborhoods and are most likely to be broke themselves. power in numbers does not always imply power overall. south africa could be used as an example this way.

[Spider Jerusalem]

113. I give up.

"Black Irish" refers to Irish descendants of shipwrecked Spanish Armada sailors, who have black hair, pale skin, and blue eyes, generally.

Any privileges that come with being of obvious European ancestry are an accident of birth and geography, which is a point I've been trying to make that you seem to ignore.

And it seems like you may not be so non-racist as you think...you talk about your Hispanic friend and say "he looks as white as me"....well, you know, Hispanics ARE white...but a large percentage of the Hispanic population of Central and South America has interbred with the native population.

And if you want to be technical, NO ONE is white...I have Arab and Asian ancestors (a thousand years back, not recently, but still there)..."race" is a sociocultural construct that has no real meaning.

This quickly grows tiresome, and I see why the other guy ignored you...

[mark414]

117. i am sorry

that you refuse to even try to acknowledge your own prejudices

race has no meaning, but that didn't stop the slave trade or the systematic oppression of people of color. because of that and many other things, this DOES have meaning, whether we like it or not.

and i know full fucking well what "black irish" means, as I AM "technically" considered a black irishman.

we can all say things like "well technically we all came from africa in the first place" but that doesn't change what has happened in history.

and i really like how you're trying to make my argument null and void by accusing me of racism. that's laughable at best. my friend is MEXICAN, which does not automatically make him hispanic. his ancestry goes back to the ancient tribes native to the mexican region, and not the spanish that came over and conquered those lands.

WE made race an issue therefore WE have an obligation to dismantle that system that obsesses over race.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Frangible]

105. Reverse racism = racism

Period. There is no excuse for racism or hatred no matter what your gender or skin color. The fact your ancestors were discriminated against means nothing. Mine were, it doesn't mean that I was though, now does it?

There seems to be a lot of confusion over what the word "racism" actually means here which I find to be kinda sad given that someone copiy and pasted the definition like four times. Reading is *hard*.

Racism in any form by any person is an abherration and isn't right. You can try to justify things to yourself all you want, but then, I'm sure that's been done by racists thousands of times in history. "It's ok to hate them because..." no, it isn't. Period. If you think otherwise, you're wrong.

See, I have such happy neutral beliefs.

[mark414]

109. i never said hatred is ok

to the contrary, i have on a number of occasions said that prejudice is absolutely unacceptable.

i know how to read.

yes, my ancestors were discriminated against, but we don't see the results of that today because ultimately irish people looked like other white people and thus could fit in.

we are still seeing the results of slavery today. to suggest that we live on a level playing field is not only kidding yourself, it's just plain ignorant.

i challenge you to browse through this post and read what i and others have to say about the myth of reverse racism.

challenge yourself and your beliefs and perhaps then you will understand.

i have met people who did not even have the slightest understanding of how the power structure played itself out into their favor until they were middle aged! it's takes a long time for white people to really understand this whole concept, as it's been almost 3 years for me personally since i first began to read and try to grasp this idea.

[Uzybone]

107. Racism is racism

there is no such thing as reverse racism. White can be racist towards blacks and vice versa. It exsists and it is all bourne out of ignorance and hatred. The only difference is, racism from minorities towards whites usually amounts to cursing the sun, nothing will happen to the sun.

[Ron Green]

112. Reread post #18

..to which the response seemed to be "you're just not wanting to listen." In fact, the point of this post, which is that racism, discrimination, prejudice, etc. are all about being afraid of an Other, is right on. This "Other" is all people to whom we are actually related but have falsely perceived to be separate from us. It seems that all the rest on this thread has been about definitions, dictionaries, and who's got the power.

[mark414]

114. but it's not that simple

i'm talking only about how this all manifests itself in american society, where the issue of power DOES exist and DOES cause problems.

michael moore made a great point in bowling for columbine, when he talked about how the news and shows like cops cause an unnecessary and unjustified fear of young dark skinned men.

no one has to tell me about definitions, or "fear of other"

i know that. i understand that. now i am just asking other white people to understand the institutional power their skin gives them, whether they asked for it or not.

[Ron Green]

120. And I think you've done a good job...

you've done a lot of work on this thread, and you obviously have thought much about this and you care about it, too. I can't imagine the people at FR being able to make this much sense of such a major issue.

[mark414]

122. thanks, and i agree

about the FR comment. my only thing is that a lot of things that people were saying on here nearly mirrored exactly what i have seen and heard people say when opposing affirmative action or talking about "that racist jesse jackson or al sharpton" or etc. etc. etc.

i'm not accusing anyone of being a freeper, only for sharing the same position as them on this.

[Blue-Jay]

125. Racism?.....ehh...really depends on your definition of the term.

If we're talking "bigotry", then yes. Anyone can be a bigot, regardless of skin color.

"Racism" is a squirrelier term. Some would say that it's impossible, due to the fact that African Americans (in general) don't wield enough financial and political power to implement racism on a large scale. That's a true enough statement, but it runs the risk of re-defining the word "racism".

It's more a matter of semantics than it is of actions.

[mark414]

128. that's what i was trying to get at

however, some people were refusing to re-examine their understanding of the word racism and what it really means in american society

[mosin]

136. If you redefine...

commonly accepted words to mean something different in character than they commonly mean, then it becomes awfully hard to engage in a meaningful debate.

Racism is typically defined and understood to mean racial bigotry or prejudice. In the context of that definition, then there are certainly non-white racists. I even have some in my extended family who are still not happy that I married a Latina.

The term "reverse discrimination," however, is usually used in arguments opposing affirmative action, so it comes loaded with all that baggage.

[Blue-Jay]

137. DingDingDing! We have a Winnah!

There are (and will always be, sadly) bigots of every stripe. Race-bigots, economic bigots, regional bigots, educational-level bigots, sexual orientation bigots, etc.

You're completely correct that the phrase "reverse racism" is a buzz-phrase meant to co-opt fair hiring practices and affirmative action policies. It equates with saying "anti-choice" or "abortionist". It's become standard practice to distort the English language to fit with one's beliefs.

[Nikia]

138. I see what you mean, but "reverse racism" exists on smaller scales

I see your point on a grand scale. Everyone makes assumptions based on group status and whites are generally viewed to be a number of positive superior things and blacks are viewed to be the opposite. In larger society, this is racism.
People's personal realities are smaller though. There is what you'd call reverse racism, classism, sexism in people's individual realities. It may be no big deal to be called honkey as you are casually walking down the street, but it is if you are called that everyday at your school which is over 90% black. It may be no big deal when Mexicans say rude comments about Anglos in Spanish amongst themselves, but it is when you are in love with one of them and their family makes fun of you all the time and doesn't take you seriously as their son or daughters potential spouse. The upper middle class student may be seen as superior by society to the workingclass until he decides to work in a factory for the summer and everyone there gives him a hard time. It is sexism when you are the only male in a gender studies class with a female professor who hates men. In people's own individual lives there is reverse isms including the definitions of power.
There is institutional racism which in the U.S. is white having power over blacks. I don't consider affirmative action as it is usually practiced to be a form of racism, by the way, because it is not a form of hate nor does is it motivated by the urge to beat anyone down. People, even whites, do experience racism in their personal lives. There are also members of every ethnic group who believe that they are superior, even if not measured by traditional things like oppurtunity, power, or material wealth.

[bigwillq]

140. Racism, prejudice, discrimination only exists

because of lack of education and familiarity with another's race/ethnicity/nationality.

No one is born hating another's race, etc.

They are taught it.