I've just watched, on the news, one of your marines shoot an unarmed,

[mr blur]

wounded man in the head. In front of a TV camera. Fuck your country and its leaders. And fuck all the morons in the US for voting to let them carry on doing it.

[DrWeird]

1. Agreed.

nt

[radwriter0555]

40. KILLING FOR A PAYCHECK. I have NO respect...

Nor is any deserved.

[DuaneBidoux]

2. Where are you from? Where did you watch this?

And I don't blame you feelings.

[LittleClarkie]

8. He's from the UK

Think about that a moment and get back to me.

Personally, I think you need to go and look in a mirror and say the same thing to yourself. You do realize who our biggest ally in all of this has been. Don't you?

[DrWeird]

10. Yeah, but the British people didn't have any say in it.

Not like the Americans, who voted for the guy who orders troops to rape children.

[Mike L]

23. Blair's approval rating is still 2 points higher than his disapproval

rating. The UK will reelect him if he runs again.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mike L]

33. Whew, you got deleted!

Musta been bad.

[LittleClarkie]

26. 49% of us didn't either

And damn it, we are not going down Vietnam road when it comes to how we treat the troops.

It's the war. This is what war does to people. These guys are going to need us when they get back. We'd better not treat them the way the Vietnam vets got treated when they got home.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

47. Sorry but that Marine is a sick murderer...no sympathy from me

if he doesn't know right from wrong.

[RyomaSakamoto]

52. unfortunately it reveals the new 'NORMAL' that must be prevalent

over there now to feel comfortable to commit MURDER on camera.

but look who we got heading the 'justice' dept. the man who authorized TORTURE and STRIPPING AMERICANS of their RIGHTS.

we MUST stop this!

[ithacan]

83. that marine reflects a strong mindset in this country

let's not kid ourselves, nsma, what this guy did is what most people who voted for Bush would have done.

it reflects a basic imperialistic, racist, hateful mindset that got Bush elected.

it reflects the mindset and values of the Bush regime itself.

so yeah, the marine pulled the trigger. but who else had their fingers on that trigger?

every single person who voted for Bush and who supported this war.

[MISSDem]

172. I agree 100%. Some of the soldiers went to Iraq in eager

anticipation of killing. One of the National Guard troops from here was quoted in our local newspaper saying he couldn't wait to get there and "do some of the really cool stuff". His job was to be a sniper. That leaves you to wonder what the really cool stuff could, indeed, be. What do snipers do other than shoot people, right?

[MnFats]

50. Friend, mistreatment of Vietnam vets was extremely rare..

....
I was around then. (OK, I won the lottery and didn't have to go.) I have many, many friends who are Vietnam vets and NONE of them were treated badly. Most were welcomed home with open arms.

Instances of mistreatment were used as a political football by Nixon and his gang of criminals, and every war-mongering administration since to attack moderates, liberals and anyone with an anti-war outlook.

Just wanted to set the record straight.

That said, the behavior in Iraq is utterly appalling.

[comradebillyboy]

55. au contraire, i recall being called a baby killer

in public in champaign-urbana on more than one occasion. my gi haircut was a dead give away.

[Selwynn]

87. Tell that to my father.

Stepped off the plane and got spit on...

I think you're full of a little wishful thinking and revisionist history.

[mike_c]

100. I would happily be among the first to spit on this pig....

And he's simply unfortunate enough to have been caught on film. I do not doubt that what we watched was SOP in Iraq. I fervently hope that at least this particular Marine spends the rest of his miserable life in prison. He and his happy little goon squad were acting in OUR NAMES. I have every right to condemn his actions.

[DrWeird]

51. The only treatment this guy needs...

is a lethal injection.

[SoCalDem]

66. Nor did most Americans

:(

[DuaneBidoux]

12. If you're from the UK your country has certainly been an enabler

But put your money where you mouth is is all I can say. Until corporate America starts to feel the squeeze in corporate profits it won't mean a thing.

[yardwork]

197. I agree - put your money where your mouth is, original poster!

You're from the UK and you are mad? I'm from the United States and I'm mad! I had not say in this either. I voted against the madmen in 2000, 2002, and 2004. I wrote to my supposed representatives in Congress and they ignored me. I wrote letters to the editor of my newspaper. My city and county elected Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004, but our votes didn't count.

Here's a wakeup call - electronic voting is coming to your precinct! You too may soon live in a country where votes don't count.

Do something about it and let's work together instead of cursing one another in the darkness.

[physioex]

3. Yes this country is commiting atrocities...

And there are many people working hard to try and stop this.

[democratreformed]

4. I'm sorry!!!! Truly, I am! That's all I know to say. n/t

[DemCam]

You're not alone.

Others are sorry, too.

http://www.sorryeverybody.com/gallery/237/

[Rainbowreflect]

5. It sickens me that anyone can actually believe

that bush is a good leader & a good Christian.
I cry for my country.

[Nikepallas]

6. I understand your feelings and I do feel the same way.

I think we are slowly learning that the election was once again stolen...I know small consolation but if I could change everything and make it right I'd do so in half a heart beat

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DuaneBidoux]

15. That and start organizing for Christs sake...send emails

out to those in the UK and Europe. Urge a boycott of US. And perhaps most of all do what we failed to do and get rid of Tony Blair with someone who will quit licking Bush's fascists boots.

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. I agree with you.

But at least gays can't marry in 11 states. :shrug: This Country is seriously screwed up. :-(

[glarius]

11. You are adding to the heartache of the good people in this forum

I've been reading and posting on here for a while now...They do not deserve being cursed....

[DuaneBidoux]

24. If you're from Canada do your part too. I've tried to tell every

foreigner who I know and who will listen to begin boycotting against the US whenever you can. There will be no difference until the corporate machine starts to feel some pain.

Even though I'm American I can't blame him for his anger, other than to say he has to help do his part-boycott America and spread the word. Become activist and he must not forget, his country has Blair the Bush boot licker.

[DrWeird]

44. The good people of this forum...

understand and sympathize.

[HuskerDem]

13. Pot and the Kettle sweets

cure your own ills then come tell me about mine. We're working on it.

[Jack_DeLeon]

14. Linkage?

[AndyTiedye]

16. Mad Cowboys Have Stolen Our Elections and Hijacked Our Country

What's your excuse?

[GumboYaYa]

17. Agreed!

[cornermouse]

18. Whoa there.

I did not vote for him.

[Pacifist Patriot]

146. Well he did say "all the morons" who voted for him...

I can only assume we're excluded from his indictment of our intelligence.

[ArkDem]

19. I'm just glad that the soldiers of the Empire would never have

done the same!:hurts:

[scarletwoman]

20. Where are you?

I don't know what to say. I am sickened beyond words. My only source of grim satisfaction is that I do believe in the law of karma, and I know we have a MAJOR debt to pay -- it cannot come soon enough, in my opinion.

I would rather be killed myself, than see my government rampaging through the world dealing death and destruction one more day.

I am so sorry. Millions of us did all that we could to evict the evil cabal from the White House. I do not know if the resolve exists, even among the most committed dissenters among us, to take the next logical step of massive civil disobedience, but it is probably what honor demands.

We would no doubt be crushed by the tyrants in power -- yet once this was a country whose revolutionary cry was "Live free or die!" I wonder if such valor exists among any of us these days?

We are the spoiled and greedy adolescent barbarians of the world. I cannot in good conscience ask for forgiveness, for that which is being done in our names is unforgiveable. I am ashamed to the depths of my soul...

sw

[Malva Zebrina]

21. where was this video shown?

on British Teevee? I expect it will show up on the net eventually.

There was one video I saw of marines in street fighting in Fallujah. An insurgent was in an alley between two buildings wounded. A marine stood up on a barrel and shot into the alley and then said "he's done" or something to that effect. But there was not actual footage showing him shooting an unarmed man in the head.

:cry:

[mr blur]

27. It will be here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

click on the 10 o'clock News video link

[DuaneBidoux]

39. Can't find the link. I did find a link but it said that broadband

for international users was by subscription only.

[RebelOne]

45. It was just shown on Wolf Blitzer.

But they blocked out faces and did not really show the actual shooting.

[mr blur]

22. Look, I'm sorry,

I just watched it on the 10 o'clock news. Followed by shots of Marines loading and firing mortars with shouts of glee/excitement. It's obscene. This isn't WW2 where people risked their lives to stop a genocidal maniac taking over the world. These people have done nothing to America, or the UK. If this was some right-wing dictatorship in S. America your government would be calling these people "freedom fighters" and sending the CIA in to teach them how to torture.
I realise that the people here are not the ones who need to hear my anger and I apologise to you.
As for Tony Blair, he will carry the shame of his part in this for a long time.

[leftchick]

28. I understand your anger...

I am so ashamed of this country and the troops that carry out the war crimes for * .

[SudieJD]

78. I'm So, So Sorry....

I wish we could have done more. We need help! Our Country is being hijacked by mad men (and women)! Send Help!

Sudie in MN

[Nordic]

31. we feel the same anger as you

and keep in mind the American public is NOT seeing any of this video.

Instead we get the Marlboro Man.

I'm not joking.

[Bluebear]

32. He's not joking. That is all the coverage our press gives us.

nt

[laylah]

48. Is ok mr blur..

:hug: You are preaching to the choir. It breaks the hearts of all of us here to know that these atrocities are being committed in OUR names, Amerkun moral values and all. Can you imagine how Jesus must feel?

Jenn

edited to get it right!

[Nikepallas]

49. It was a gut reaction I hold no heart feelings I'd probably go off myself

Let's just remember that its okay to vent but we are all viewing things from the side of truth and remember we need to stick together.

[HamdenRice]

63. while I agree with your sentiment,

I have to quote dear leader chimp, "what about Tony Blair? What about POLAND?

[Sparkle]

29. Don't blame me, I voted for John Kerry.

[HuskerDem]

54. Don't blame me, I voted for Kerry button

My button on eBay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3940660556#ebayphotohosting

[Journeyman]

30. I assume you're in the UK . . .

or so I believe from your profile. If so, you're there with us, Jonathan. Here in the US, if I commit a crime and you're driving the get away car, we both go to jail. So put on your own hairshirt first, flagellate yourself until your bloody raw, and cleanup your own house -- your system makes it a little easier to do on short notice than ours. Until then -- as one whose Irish roots are deep and raw -- unfuck you.

[mr blur]

35. Well, I'm not sure

who "Jonathan" is, but you're right. Our disgraceful arselicking Prime Minister did support your megalomaniac and next year, when we have our elections, he'll pay the price for it.
And please don't presume to mention Ireland - as one who lost a friend whose only crime was to go for a drink in a pub that the IRA decided they had to blow to pieces (with weapons possibly bought with money sent over by Americans who had probably never been to Ireland but love to wax lyrically/drunkenly about "the old country") - because I don't need to hear that shit.

We'll clean up our own house - I suspect that yours will take a lot longer to sort out.

[doni_georgia]

38. Why are you screaming at us? None of us voted for the sorry SOB

[DuaneBidoux]

42. So is Labour going to dump the Poodle? I sure haven't seen

any signs of that from this side of the pond.

[Logansquare]

53. You really know a lot of Americans I see

</sarcasm>
A relatively tiny minority of crazed Irish Americans supported the IRA, just like a relatively tiny minority of crazed Islamic fundamentalists support Bin Laden. Come back when you have something intelligent to say.

[Joe Chi Minh]

58. You obviously have a tabloid

understanding of the rights and wrongs of what's been going on in N.I., Mr Blur, thanks to good old us. I know because I shared them.

I had a mate who served four tours in NI with the marines. Like most people, I've done some foolish things in my life, but few could be as farcical as my remonstrating with him vociferously and self-righteously, when he said there were actually two sides to the question of NI.

Sure, there are psychopaths on the ground in every army, but for the major share of the guilt you must look to the right-wing political leaders (such as Blair), and the people who vote for them - including the dear old, blue-rinse matrons, who seem to preponderate at the Tory party conferences. As regards NI, both parties in fact.

As I posted to the Guardian forum, after Paisley denied knowledge of the thugs who set fire to a house belonging to Catholics, killing two young children, "You may not know them, Mr Paisley, but I can assure you that they will know you".

Do you realise that, hideous as occupation of Iraq is, we have all shared the responsibility, over at least half a century, for the premature deaths of literally billions of people all over the world, through a deliberate and purposeful impoverishment of them, and all the ills it brings in its train? All this, by imposing surrogate, puppet tyrants over them. That for the last 20 years in the UK, people all over the country have been meeting a premature death as a result of a deliberate underfunding of the welfare state? I wonder how responsibly you've voted in this country? I suspect you're a student - and not a very apt one, if you still don't know that almost all the people on this board have been against the war in Iraq from the beginning.

[manic expression]

34. If this truly happened...

(which is highly, highly probable), I am disgusted. I do not support this war in any way. It just disgusts me.

[Redleg]

36. Fuck me? No, fuck you!

Don't blame us all for that bullshit.

[Shopaholic]

57. You're preaching to the choir here---

go over to Free Republic and tell them what you think. Of course, they'll delete your post and ban you for life from their forum. . .

[HFishbine]

198. Yeah, Fuck you!

Why don't you concentrate on your nation's complicity instead of pointing fingers at those of us trying to change things here, mofo?

[Redleg]

202. You're trying to change things by posting on DU?

Good fucking luck. And I will say again: those of us who opposed Bush are not complicit in this killing. Do you believe we should be held collectively accountable? That's an unfair moral principle, isn't it?

[AndyTiedye]

37. We're Already Fucked

> Fuck your country

Our country is already fucked.

> and its leaders.

We're trying! Seems like they fucked us again instead!

> And fuck all the morons in the US for voting to let them carry on doing it.

That would be the Diebold Republican Electing Machinez.
There aren't really that many mad cowboys here.

You don't want to fuck this:

It will make your willie disappear faster than a Kerry vote!

Actually, there's nothing wrong with those that some OPEN SOURCE
software and a PRINTER can't fix.

[against all enemies]

41. What are you going to say when Tony Blair is re-elected?

You know he going to win. Without Blair we couldn't have created this mess and the British are going to vote him in again.

[peach720]

68. Do you think it will be any different with a

Conservative Government? They have always been up the arse of whoever is President of the USA when in power.
They are anti- EU so will not care about working with France and Germany because they had them and most of the traditional Tory voters are people that like Bush too.
The election system is still a cross in a box and ballots are counted in public, usually in front of the candidates and tv crews and so the election will not be stolen either!!
Whatever our views of the IRA, we in London lived with a frightening, vicious, deadly campaign for decades, the US would have flattened NI if they had had a fraction of the bombings in their cities.
I am for the reunification of Ireland but as someone that at the time was too young to read a tabloid, I know that the fear that was felt after an IRA attack was very real.

However although we are in Iraq as deep as the US, I have never meet anyone that supports this war but our troops are more humane, the number of our dead troops are still in double figures and some of them died in "friendly fire" incidents.
The British troops have not abused prisoners and have not shoot unarmed injured Iraqi's.
And the relationship in the UK with the Muslim community is strong enough, that they will go out to Iraq to try and get our hostages free. Most Brits know that most Muslims are not terrorists, just a few like all Irish Catholics are not all IRA terrorists.

[HuskerDem]

132. Oh, I see then................... Boo hoo hoo we can't do anything about

our elections/involvement and besides it's not our fault and our soldiers never do anything wrong anyway.

Give me a FARKING BREAK! You sound like a spoiled kid trying to hide his mess and blame it on the retarded neighbor child. We might BE that retarded neighbor kid but IT"S YOUR MESS TOO. What have YOU done to stop it because IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY ALSO.

Furthermore, just what the hell do you think UK soldiers are doing over there? You think THEY are not killing innocent people too? Right? They're just there kissing the girls and playing checkers I suppose. No bullets in their guns.

[jefferson_dem]

43. No need to get tribal on us, man!

Fuck the whole operation and those who support it. That was not done in my fucking name!

[markclemens]

64. Story behind the Famous Picture

No, it wasn't done in your name.

"Drawn by gunfire, Adams and an NBC film crew watched South Vietnamese soldiers bring a handcuffed Viet Cong captive to a street corner, where they assumed he would be interrogated. Instead, South Vietnam's police chief, Lt. Col. Nguyen Ngoc Loan, strode up, wordlessly drew a pistol and shot the man in the head.

Adams caught the instant of death in a photo that made front pages around the world. It would became one of the Vietnam's War's most indelible images, shocking the American public and used by critics to dispute official claims that the war was being won.

In later years, Adams found himself so defined - and haunted - by the picture that he would not display it at his studio. He also felt it unfairly maligned Loan, who lived in Virginia after the war and died in 1998.

"The guy was a hero," Adams said, recalling Loan's explanation that the man he executed was a Viet Cong captain, responsible for murdering the family of Loan's closest aide a few hours earlier.

"Sometimes a picture can be misleading because it does not tell the whole story," Adams said in an interview for a 1972 AP photo book. "I don't say what he did was right, but he was fighting a war and he was up against some pretty bad people."

[Hey Zeus]

65. thanks for the background.

[AnIndependentTexan]

46. we didn't elect him! They cheated using e-voting!

[leftchick]

56. OMG... I just saw it on BBCAmerica..... I wish I hadn't....

The Iraqi was laying on the ground with a dead person leaning on him. He was barely breathing and not moving at all, then The marine said "he is fucking breathing he is DEAD now!" and blows his head off. I am sorry but this is so beyond fucked up! I hate that marine for doing that to an obviously unthreatening person and I hate bush's fucked up war! That marine is one fucked up person, I feel sorry for anyone who comes into contact with him when he gets home.

:cry:

[zeek]

61. It shouldn't suprise you ... this is war and he is a Marine

This is a story because there was an embedded reporter who got video of it. If there wasn't it would have never made the news. Stuff like that happens in every war, more often then you realize. Don't get me wrong it is homicide and the Marine should be and probably will be court marshalled for this.

That said, this kind of thing can not be completely prevented.
U.S. Marines are trained killers, the best of the best. We ask them to make split second descisions about taking someone's life, and act on that descision without any remorse or second thoughts. Occasionally they screw up and get it wrong. In this case the guy who killed the Iraqi had been shot himself the day before, possibly making him a little more jumpy.

[leftchick]

62. uh yes it can be prevented....

don't have a war based on lies to enrich oil COs/ defense contractors.
I am not naive, I remember Vietnam quite well and this is a redux for anyone paying attention. The point is this time around the US media is a State run media and we have nowhere near the reporting from events on the war that we should. it would make a difference to ameriKans if they saw the daily attrocities committed in their names on the nightly news as this latest video.

[Phillycat]

81. Not to mention...

think about the situation. The insurgents have been booby-trapping corpses. The Marines are OFTEN shot at from mosques--it's one of the insurgents' favorite places to take cover and shoot from. This is a potentially fatal place for them to be--they are on full alert. We don't know what was going on outside the narrow range of what the camera caught.

I am not going to second-guess our troops. They need our support. The situation is being investigated and I'm sure whatever the appropriate action is will be taken. I'm not willing to lay my life on the line for this country, so I'm more than willing to give the benefit of the doubt to those who do.

[OneBlueSky]

59. don't forget . . . these guys that are being trained and prompted to . . .

do this kind of shit will (mostly) be returning home someday . . . and more than a few of them will likely be so screwed up that they'll blow a loved one or a neighbor away in a combat flashback kind of rage . . . it's already happened . . .

[datasuspect]

131. or one of them

will be a drifter who stumbles into a pacific northwestern town looking for something to eat and get hassled by the sherrif and eventually blow up said town after a brief sojourn in the woods where he kills national guard elements and deputies.

[Postman]

60. BBC World on local public station censored the video.

blacked out the shooting.

[datasuspect]

73. german news sources didn't

[Hey Zeus]

67. england sucks too.

and worse.

[peach720]

69. Actually

I think like Channel 4, the BBC got floods of complaints because the footage was too graphic and disturbing.
All though the BBC stopped showing the act, they did not stop showing the moments before the shot. A man on the ground asking for help, with a gun pointing at him and the British press also covered it well. It has disgusted everyone here.
England does not suck when it comes to good media coverage and information.

[tryn2getit]

70. I don't believe you have the whole story...

Are you aware that throughout this battle, the insurgents have booby-trapped their dead and dying comrades? We have had our men killed when they approach the dead and dying enemy, only to be blown up because the bodies are booby-trapped.

It's obvious from the soldier's words that he thought the guy was faking being dead, and he shot in self-defense....because this is the MO of these insurgents. Fake being dead/injured, and then kill the Americans when they approach.

In war, if you are going to use cowardly, dirty tricks such as booby-trapping your dead and dying, you take a chance of someting like this happening.

Were you so sickened by the reports of Saddam's henchmen knocking on civilian's doors and shooting the head of the household in the face because it was rumored he said something against Saddam?

Were you so sickened by the reports of the American soldiers and civilians being killed by car bombs?

Perhaps you need to consider all the factors before you go off on someone else. Have you walked in his shoes?

[datasuspect]

75. did you watch the video (unedited video link)

here is the link:

http://www.ogrish.com/attachments/2004/11/16/ogrish-dot-com-marine_shoots_wounded_pow_video.wmv

the soldiers walked into a mosque and encountered wounded iraqi patriots they left for dead the day before.

THESE WERE WOUNDED UNARMED MEN.

and if the body was booby trapped, what sense does it make to fire rounds AT CLOSE RANGE into a target that POTENTIALLY HAS EXPLOSIVES?!>!!>

i don't buy your argument.

i think armed to the teeth u.s. military decimating rag tag elements of the iraqi CITIZENRY is the epitome of cowardice.

edited for incorrect link

[FlaGranny]

94. What I am sickened by

is killing the people we supposedly went to liberate. Obviously they don't want to be liberated by us. But what do we care what THEY want. They want us out of their country. They never did anything to us in the first place. They wonder why the hell we are in their country killing them. If they were here telling us how to live our lives, trying to convert us to Islam, bombing us, and all the other stuff we've done to them, would Americans accept it?

War never should happen except as the very LAST resort because this is what happens.

Every single day our ineffectual, bush-lackey TV news should be showing these photos to Americans and showing us the war. Then maybe we wouldn't be so happy to be kiling people who just want to be left alone.

[mhr]

97. Seems You Are Speculating To Fit Facts To Your Belief System

Who's biased now?

[mike_c]

112. "he shot in self-defense..."

Yeah, self-defense-- that's the ticket. Let's ignore the fact that the Iraqi resistance fighter had been disarmed, given first aid, and left for later pick-up as a neutralized non-combatant (see the Geneva Conventions) by another Marine platoon. Also the inconvenient fact that he was unconscious and barely breathing.

Let me lend my AMERICAN legitimacy to Mr. Blur's comments. F*ck the pigs who are murdering Iraqis in my name!

[truebrit71]

195. Up yours freeper....

"self-defense"?

Puh-leez....It's called MURDER....

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. CNN just showed it.

They didn't show the guy shooting the man, but did have the audio. There's no doubt this is the USUAL PROCEDURE. The guy is so use to doing this that having a TV camera there didn't even matter. Business as usual. What a damn nightmare.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[American Tragedy]

74. Yeah, I saw it too. What do you want, mr blur, an apology?

It's horrible, and I wish unbearable regret upon the men and women who voted for Bush and upon this administration.

That having been said, we've done about as much as we possibly can do at this point.

I am writing my undergrad thesis about the psychology and legality of war crimes, and what I have learned above all is the importance of critical thinking and reason in the face of social pressure. You can trace all evil acts, including massive systematic atrocities like war and pogroms, to individual decisions. There is rightfully no collective guilt imposed broadly by association, nationality, or ethnicity. There is only individual responsibility, and I suspect that you won't find any Americans on this site who are responsible for the war or the atrocities thereof.

So, am I upset that this is happening? You'd better fuckin believe it. It haunts my dreams, disrupts my sleep, and moves me to distraction every day. But am I personally sorry, do I take blame for being an American? No. I will accept responsibility for what I've done, but never for who I am.

Just wanted to make that clear.

[datasuspect]

80. we haven't done shit

you said: "That having been said, we've done about as much as we possibly can do at this point."

i do not want to advocate insurrectionist/incendiary/seditious actions against our country on the internet, but what precisely have we done?

can you read between my lines?

i don't know, i think someone else said it better more than 200 years ago:

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

it is clear the machine is broken. we need to fix it. marching around with placards while sipping orange mocha frappacinos ain't gonna cut it.

[American Tragedy]

82. So what exactly would you have us do?

Can you be a little more specific, assuming that you aren't alluding to a hopeless attempt at sedition?

[datasuspect]

117. well . . .

we all "need to watch what we say."

given the obsessive trolling of freepers here, i sure don't want a friendly visit from the FBI.

[arwalden]

76. Well Stated. A Sentiment Shared By Many Who Live Here...

... including myself.

Fuck Bush, fuck his supporters, fuck the war, fuck Christianism!

[leftynyc]

91. Just because they call themselves Christian doesn't

make it so.

[arwalden]

98. That's Why I See It As An "-ism" (izzum)

Terror-ism
Fundamental-ism
Commun-ism
Bush-ism
Christian-ism

It all makes sense.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

77. your expectations of us are too high

c'mon, haven't you lowered them by now? You mean this surprises you you? Where you been the last 4 years?

[TryingToWarnYou]

79. Here is a clue for you...

One, 49% of our nation didnt want this asshole back. I dont know where you live, but here, if they WIN the election, they are the President.

Two, our country and its leaders are two very different things.

I agree with you on everything else, just watch your mouth as there are a shitload of us that arent responsible.

[Phillycat]

84. SUPPORT FOR OUR TROOPS

I posted this further up in the thread, but I am going to post it here too:


Think about the situation. The insurgents have been booby-trapping corpses. The Marines are OFTEN shot at from mosques--it's one of the insurgents' favorite places to take cover and shoot from. This is a potentially fatal place for them to be--they are on full alert. We don't know what was going on outside the narrow range of what the camera caught. (My information is from BBC American and NPR. If my information is incorrect, please feel free to tell me where.)

I am not going to second-guess our troops. They need our support. The situation is being investigated and I'm sure whatever the appropriate action is will be taken. I'm not willing to lay my life on the line for this country, so I'm more than willing to give the benefit of the doubt to those who do.

[RBHam]

85. You believe propaganda and lies?

Wake up!

This is not a normal "battle". This is a needless SLAUGHTER.

[Phillycat]

86. BBC America and NPR are propaganda and lies?

I don't think so.

I don't agree with this war, and I don't think we belong there. But since we are there, and our troops are engaged and following orders, I will give them my support unless I have a reason not to.

[Selwynn]

103. And that's your biggest problem.

You're right, you don't think.

"Support" doesn't mean blindly ignoring wrongs. That's not even "support." That's just mindless assent, and its beneath any rational passionate patriotic American.

We are called to actually support our troops. And that means standing up for what's right and criticizing what is wrong when necessary. That's how we defend our troops.

In fact, that is really a better way to put it. We need to defend our troops. We do that by demanding that injustices ordered from the top, or actions of a few that undermine many be dealt with, not swept under the rung.

What do you mean when you say "we need to support the troops?" What does "support" mean to you besides being a mindless jingoistic term? Define "support" for me? And try to do it in some other way aside from defining it as, blind, thoughtless, irreflective, unqualified acceptance of anything done abroad. Because that kind of attitude belongs in another party, not this one.

[Phillycat]

108. I'll just use duplicate posts here.

Since none of you are reading what I wrote anyway. Here, this one's from further down-thread.

So what? That still gives no context and doesn't tell us what happened. Are you so sure you know you're right about this? Were you there?

And if it was wrong, AS I SAID IN MY ORIGINAL POST, I want the appropriate action to be taken. And I trust that it will be. The incident is being investigated.


I am as far from a jingoist as you can imagine. You don't know who you're talking to.

[CWebster]

110. please

just like the investigations for systematic military abuse of prisoners? Just like cops caught on videotape beating African-Americans get off every time?

Stop compartmentalizing your thinking.

[RBHam]

115. Yes

They report what they're told to report. NPR and BBC can only go so far independently. NPR's Corporate donors keep it viable and the BBC relies on the largesse of the Government for its funding.

[Phillycat]

121. BBC and NPR are the most non-partial sources I've been able to find.

Do you know of better ones? Please let me know, I want to be as informed as possible.

[Selwynn]

137. That.... is why you fail. :)

I'll help you with better sources.

First I need you to define in-partial for me? Do you mean impartial as in "gives both sides equal time?" Or do you mean impatial as in, "tells the truth?"

I mean "tells the truth" when I talk about it. And step one for anyone looking for better sources of news is: turn of the TV and never turn it on again. Radio is only marginally better. Print media and web-media is your best source. It still requires you to use your head and seaprate fact from fiction, but at least its more of a fair fight.

I can make some suggestions, if you like...

[The Stranger]

88. These marines must be tried for murder.

There is a real question whether any of these actions were "for this country," as it is now established that Iraq and Iraqis never posed any threat to "this country."

The country has been hijacked by a group of people with an ideology and actions that are now destroying it.

[Phillycat]

89. Well, duh. But how are the Marines responsible for that?

That was the decision of this administration. They are following orders, as they are required to do in the military.

[The Stranger]

90. Then you concede the point.

They are not acting in any way to save "this country", but, rather, to save "this Administration," possibly to assist it in violating international law.

[Phillycat]

93. They have no choice in the matter.

I've never argued the point that this war is morally, ethically, and lawfully wrong. But the military HAS NO CHOICE. They get deployed whether they want to or not. They are dropped off in the desert with a gun and a whole bunch of pissed-off people who've had their country invaded shooting at them. What are they supposed to do?

[The Stranger]

102. What are they supposed to do?

Not commit murder.

[Phillycat]

106. What, lay down their gun and surrender?

How can they do that? They are required to fight.

[datasuspect]

126. yes, fight

not pump rounds into a dying barely breathing man.

[Phillycat]

129. Well, BBC America said this morning that many Iraqi insurgents

are faking death and then shooting American soldiers as they approach. How do we know this isn't one of those situations?

Look, I am against this war. I am a pacifist. And I don't know what happened here. But NEITHER DO YOU. The incident is being investigated and action will surely be taken if warranted. What more do we need to do? I argue that we do NOT need to vilify the entire military for the actions of one man.

[The Stranger]

136. Maybe you should think about this:

I am a pacifist. . . . I argue that we do NOT need to vilify the entire military for the actions of one man.

[Phillycat]

140. I am a pacifist MYSELF: I don't require everyone else to be.

I do not think that people who join the military are morally wrong. Would I prefer that we never went to war? Yes I would. Did I protest this war? Yes I did. Do I think it is morally, ethically, and lawfully wrong? Yes I do. Do I think the troops serving there are morally, ethically, or lawfully wrong? No I don't! They are doing their jobs! How can you not see the distinction?

[The Stranger]

150. For Peace to exist (as in Pacifism),it usually takes more than one person.

[datasuspect]

141. well geez

because it wasn't one of those situations.

and how stupid of a marine could you be to fire at a target that is possibly WIRED WITH EXPLOSIVES from less than 5 feet away?

[Selwynn]

142. How long is the "one man" excuse going to hold water...

...how many examples do we have to have before we accept a systemic problem? Abu Garab? Last year there were several different incidents of soldiers arrested for crimes. One that beat a man to death and dumped him in a river.

Sooner or later you can't keep saying oh its the actions of one man...

...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other woman...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other woman...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other woman...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other woman...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other woman...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other woman...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other woman...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...
...and one other man...

Pretty soon you have to start saying, we have a systemic problem that is hurting our troops and we need to address it honestly instead of constantly hiding behind the rhetoric of "support" and blind loyalty. There is a big difference between vilifying the entire military and acknowledging that the military is failing its troops and breeding a greater level of criminality and injustice it its ranks.

[Selwynn]

138. You not only have a choice, you have an OBLIGATION to refuse an illegal...

..order.

That is actually the law. That is why the "I was only following orders" defense doesn't work in war crimes trials.

[RBHam]

92. Just Following Orders

Where have I heard that before?

[Selwynn]

95. We SUPPORT the troops by not excusing, condoning or rationalizing murder.

I do support our troops, byt making sure that the lines between justice and criminality, right and wrong remain clear and fixed. We support the troops every day we enforce an appropriate code of conduct and swiftly deal with those who engage in war crimes. We support our troops by not making excuses and rationalizing away the barbarism and criminality of the actions of a few, dealing forcfully and swiftly with those few, and making a clear separation between the criminal actions of a few and the actions of the many others just trying to get home alive.

We do not support our troops by making excuses for murder, torture, or violation of international humanitarian law. Making excuses for that only hurts our troops in the long run. It hurts their reputation around the world, it hurts their ability to accomplish their missions. It hurts their own morale as they understand less and less what they really stand for. And it hurts their own psyche, soul or whatever else you want to call it as all stands on moral right and wrongs just get tossed out the window.

You strike me as the kind of person who kept trying to excuse and justify Abu Garab torture. There is a big difference between "supporting the troops" and blindly ignoring reality and our resposibility to stand for what is just within reality. Supporting our troops is like a contract - it is a relational requirement, not a one-sided thing. We support the troops on certain conditions - for example I would NOT support our troops if our troops were engaged in genocide, for example. Troop support is not a blind, unqualified committment. Furthermore, I feel I best support our troops by not apologizing or excusing people who give our troops a black eye and a bad name.


On the video, as the camera moved into the mosque during the Saturday incident, a Marine can be heard shouting obscenities in the background, yelling that one of the men was only pretending to be dead.

"He's (expletive) faking he's dead!"

"Yeah, he's breathing," another Marine is heard saying.

"He's faking he's (expletive) dead!" the first Marine says.

The video then showed a Marine raising his rifle toward a prisoner lying on the floor of the mosque. The video shown by NBC and provided to the network pool was blacked out at that point and did not show the bullet hitting the man. But a rifle shot could be heard.

"He's dead now," a Marine is heard saying.

...

The blacked out portion of the videotape, provided later to Associated Press Television News and other members of the network pool, showed the bullet striking the man in the upper body, possibly the head. His blood splatters on the wall behind him and his body goes limp.

[Phillycat]

101. I saw it.

So what? That still gives no context and doesn't tell us what happened. Are you so sure you know you're right about this? Were you there?

And if it was wrong, AS I SAID IN MY ORIGINAL POST, I want the appropriate action to be taken. And I trust that it will be. The incident is being investigated.

[Selwynn]

113. I am so sure

..that I stand against murder. It has nothing to do with "knowing I'm right" - there's nothing to know. It is an ideological stance. Murder is wrong, and I support the troops when I don't excuse pardon or condone criminality done in their name.

If there are extenuating circumstances, then I trust that the will come to light during an investigation. Though I find it more likely that no serious investigation will actually take place. A lot of that depends on how much continued media pressure there is. However, that doesn't mean we can't still acknowledge at this point that murder is wrong, and if that happened, it is bad. We can even acknowledge that it certainly looks like something inappropriate happened. That's not jumping to conclusions, that's not failing to support our troops. That's just dealing with reality and not blindly ignoring it.

What I reject is an attitude that wants Americans to sit down, shut up and keep quiet and about the the injustices of this criminal occupation, and act like somehow that is "supporting the troops." I support the troops by opposing their unjust and illegal deployment, but strongly speaking out and opposing injustices and/or criminality done in their name by those who don't deserve to wear the uniform, and by opposing the policies and positions of the military and the administration that seek to get away with as much torture as they possibly can and create an atmosphere of moral quagmire within the armed forces.

That's how I support the truth. If their are extenuating circumstance to this situation, then I trust they will come out. But it doesn't look too likely. And there is a big difference between supporting our troops and living in denial, where you just wrap yourself in comfortable rejectionism saying, "it could have been right, it could have been right, it could have been right," just so you can sleep at night in the comfort of your own false sense of security. Time to wake up and realize that it was most likely wrong, and is not the first, or even second or third time such criminality and barbarism have taken place in Iraq by US soldiers. Our government supports policy that condones torture and weakens protections, our military backs it, and our troops have no moral grounding for this war in the first place, and are in a quagmire of a mess which breeds a loss of humanity.

I support the troops when acknowledge that, not when I go to extraordinary and ridiculous lengths to apologize and excuse and rationalize away reports with strong evidence indicating criminality, or the history of systematized injustice rubber stamped by the White House.

[FlaGranny]

96. Blame the victims, okay.

We invaded their country. They want us gone. They don't like the puppet government we appointed. They don't like to be killed. They don't like their families killed. They don't like their homes to be bombed. THEY WANT US GONE. What would you do if you had a foreign Army in YOUR town shooting at you?

[Phillycat]

104. Shoot back, of course.

What is your point? I don't blame the Iraqi insurgents anymore than I blame the Marines. I blame this fucked-up administration for putting both parties into this untenable situation.

[Selwynn]

114. I blame the insurgents when they commit crimes, just like I do soldiers

..who commit crimes.

I'm not talking about this specific instance now - I'm talking about a general principle. You act as though its all all-or-nothing. I don't blame insurgents and I don't blame marines. Well neither do I -- until the commit in acts that violate international humanitarian law. Then I do blame them, and demand that they be held accountable.

[Phillycat]

116. So do I.

But being that none of us has specific knowledge of this incident, and there are far more qualified people within the military who are handling this incident, the right thing to do is to trust that the appropriate action is being taken, NOT to call all our troops "murderers". And if you read through this thread, that's exactly what many of the respondants are doing--extrapolating this one incident to apply to all military personell.

[datasuspect]

122. let's use the right terms here

they are not iraqi INSURGENTS they are iraqi PATRIOTS.

you collaborate with the war machine when you co-opt their phraseology.

[Selwynn]

130. That's a good catch, thanks. I blame patriots when they commit crimes.

:)

[CWebster]

99. "Support our troops" is a publicity ploy

to support, by extention, the invasion.

Many of these soldiers are kids revved-up on the "were gonna get the tewwowists who attacked us on 911" pitch, or maybe just poor kids looking for a way to go to college, or reservists not anticipating battle. What the hell are they fighting and dying for? A lie. So, you support the troops by defending the lie they fight and die for? This incident is not seeing the forest for the trees---the entire invasion is a war crime. How do you support the troops in that case? Truly supporting the troops would be in not supporting the mission or the lie.

Just remember good Germans supported their troops too.

[Phillycat]

105. I do not support the war.

For the millionth time, I think it is morally,ethically, and lawfully wrong. I do not defend the lie that is this war. But I defend the kids that are over there, who HAVE NO CHOICE, who are required to follow orders. Duh. How hard is it to see the distinction?

[CWebster]

107. Someone above noted

that "just following orders" didn't pass muster when the world held the Nazis accountable.

[Phillycat]

109. What's that old rule? Whenever somebody brings up the Nazis

on a message board discussion, that person has lost.

[CWebster]

111. What's winning got to do with it?

you can consider yourself the winner if that is all you want.

[Phillycat]

118. My point is that

this situation is not comparable to Nazi Germany.

[TankLV]

124. Look around - it is not only if you are blind to the facts.

Not only is it comparable - but it's almost following the day-to-day script.

But then again, maybe it's not EXACTLY alike - after all, Hitler served in HIS military HONERABLY and could think and write his own speeches!

[Selwynn]

127. You need to take two steps back and apologize for the word "honorably"

I don't believe state that Hitler served "honorably" is really a sentiment we want around here. Hitler was responsible for the most brutal atrocities of the 20th century. The word "honor" should never come into it.

[CWebster]

133. Why not?

Because you have unconsciously concluded one as the unquestionable evil and the other as the misinterpreted moral good?

War is barbarism. That is the nature of it. It is humans at their most shameful hour even if the cause is wrapped in pariotic honor, glory and pride. It is death and suffering and destruction and pain and ugliness and horror. It is not championing the cause of the downtrodden or liberation of the struggling to carpetbomb them or send fleeing citizens back into war zones and deny them aid. This is the way to impose an iron fist and crush the will of Iraqis fighting for their own land. They are not "insurgents" or "illegal combatants" or some other sub-human terrorist designation. Wars are always waged to silence opposition by destroying infrastructure and at the cost of unspeakable human suffering. Fuck supporting that.

[Phillycat]

139. Listen carefully: I AGREE WITH YOU.

This war is wrong. ALL WAR IS WRONG. Invading a country with no just cause is wrong. I AM A PACIFIST. Got it?

Now then. First of all, you've been incredibly rude and I continue to respond to you civilly, so think about that. I have not unconsciously concluded anything. I do my best to educate myself and use the most unbiased news sources available to me, as I'm sure you do. Are you so convinced that because my opinion differs from yours, I must be uneducated and blindly following the masses?

I agree with every word you have spoken about war and what it does to humans and other living things. I AGREE. Do you hear me?

I DO NOT agree with vilifying our entire military personell, who are serving because they are required to, for the specific actions of ONE Marine, (the specifics of which WE DON'T KNOW).

[datasuspect]

143. but we do KNOW

the specifics.

you have to be particularly well-vetted to be an embed.

and in a way, an embedded reporter relating this event is actually very strange and strangely very credible.

[Selwynn]

147. Exactly. (nt)

[TankLV]

123. What's that old rule? When it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck,

then is must be a duck.

Cute nonsense phrases like yours doesn't change the truth.

If YOU choose not to see the parallels, then it's your choice to remain ignorant.

These MURDERERS deserve NO respect - and should be in PRISON for their actions. He fucking enjoyed the crime and BRAGGED ABOUT IT - on a WOUNDED soldier.

So I guess this means you condone it when the OTHER side abuses our soldiers? After all, they were "just following orders", too, and we can understand how their anger and depravity is justified/rationalized in a time of war, right?

This "man" deserves our swift and unadulterated venom - spit - what have you - for what he's been CAUGHT ON TAPE, COMPLETE WITH CONTEXT, FOR ALL THE WORLD TO SEE!!!!

And - just for the record - how fucking long does the tape have to be to have any more complete a "context"?!?!

I wish for him exatcly the same he does to others.

He is not "my" soldier - I am not proud of him, nor do I blindly "support" vermin.

[datasuspect]

135. they have a choice

they can refuse to obey orders.

of course there are legal penalties, but their actions would be based on a moral choice to not murder.

you make it seem like there are no options.

[datasuspect]

119. branding/marketing ploy

we are a clearly superior force throwing thousands of pounds of munitions on a daily basis.

you can support the troops. i sure as hell don't.

they CHOSE to enlist. these people weren't drafted. and from what "home videos" i find on the internet TAPED BY THE SOLDIERS themselves, they seem to get off on their activities in iraq.

[Phillycat]

120. Did you see Farenheit 9-11?

Do you think it's as simple as murderous assholes joining the military so they can shoot brown people? Most of these kids joined because they didn't have any better options in their lives. Most have serious reservations about going to Iraq. Many believed we didn't belong there.

As I've said countless times on this thread, if there was wrongdoing on the part of this specific Marine, I want the appropriate action to be taken. (And since none of us were there, the only rational thing to do is trust that more-qualifed people within the military will make that decision.) But you cannot extrapolate this specific incident to apply to the whole military, the vast majority of whom are honorable men trying to do their job to the best of their ability.

[datasuspect]

125. look

i live in a part of texas that is spiritually closer to mississippi than houston.

anyway, i interact with many of the sorts who end up joining the military.

it is true that lots of people in small towns/urban poverty areas have few choices.

BUT

the people i meet around here who are the most gung ho about nuking "sand niggers," "camel jockeys," and "diaper heads" join the military and support the military.

that is not to say that the military is comprised SOLELY of rednecks; however, rednecks are disproportionately represented in the military.

and they LOVE guns, they are mindlessly PATRIOTIC, they watch NASCAR, they stand to attention and put their hands over their hearts during LEE GREENWOOD SONGS, they SUPPORT THE TROOPS AND THEIR PRESIDENT.

i don't buy the hapless innocent victim line.

it's not like all these people in the military were attending oxford when they were called up.

[TankLV]

128. Now you are changing your tune?

YOU are the makeing exxcuses for this criminal.

"not enough context"

"we don't know for sure what happened" - EVEN WHEN WE HAVE A LONG FUCKING TAPE FOR ALL TO SEE!!!!

and now you say "if there was wrong doing" IF? IF?!?!?!?!?!

Just what more do you people need?!?!

And the big laugh is "trust the military to do the right thing"

THEY FUCKING CREATED ABU GRAVE AND THIS CLIMATE OF CRIMINALITY IN THE FIRST PLACE AND ARE THE FIRST ONES TO COVER IT UP!

For christsake - wake up!

[Phillycat]

134. I disagree.

I know many vets and active duty military personell. Including my own father. I do not believe they are criminals who want to cover up war crimes. We disagree on this point. You will have to accept that, as I have.

[TankLV]

164. I do to. But this not yesterday's honerable military.

YOU are the one making excuses for criminal behavior - THIS ONE INSTANCE - YOU are make excuses for.

Then you cry that "not all military are bad" I didn't, nor has any else - said that.

But then again, you still try to defend the indefinsible.

It's not just a "disagreement". It's the very core of who we are as human beings.

Conconing, and MAKING EXCUSES for abominable behavior is NEVER acceptable!

Do you find that torture is OK is some cirstances, too?

[MISSDem]

196. It is not true that only the poor

enlist in the armed services. Actually the recruiters and the records show that the services are made up of middle class folks.

[Phillycat]

144. I cannot believe I am the only person on this thread who thinks

it's morally wrong to vilify the entire military based on one specific incident, the specifics of which we don't even know. The level of vitriol and hatred spewed at me has been staggering, when I have been nothing but civil. If you all need to feel that there's nobody who disagrees with you, I will bow out. Bye.

[datasuspect]

145. don't get mad

you're just not making a good case.

sorry

[qanda]

192. Psyops is working!

I heard that exact same explanation over and over again on CNN, where they brought out military men to "give an objective view"-- Ah, yeah right! The troops don't need our support, they need us to stop believing that an unarmed man in a Mosque, trying to play dead, had as much right to live and go home to his family as "our" troops.

[Hey Zeus]

148. like clint eastwood said in "unforgiven"...

he should have armed himself.

[datasuspect]

149. boy

that's cute.

i guess if were bleeding to death and barely conscious i'd try to find a weapon.

[Hey Zeus]

151. is it your contention that he was not armed to start

i have seen no evidence that this was an "innocent bystander". please post any evidence you have seen.

[datasuspect]

152. i won't do your work for you . . .

but you can see the edited (they censored the money shot) version on NBC news (not hard to find).

i posted the unedited version in this thread as well.

this was reported by an embedded reporter. a government sanctioned/approved reporter.

[Hey Zeus]

153. i have seen it.

i believe him to be an enemy combatant and you do not. we disagree. we also seem to disagree on the honor of our soldiers. if/when evidence arises to show me to be wrong, i will recant. it will be investigated.

[datasuspect]

154. well your recanting

is of zero value to me.

i'm just not buying what you are trying to sell. i mean, does someone have to S-P-E-L-L it out?

do you need to go to fallujah and smell the bloodstain or talk to the marine himself?

[Hey Zeus]

155. do you feel all our troops are liars and murderers..

most, some, a few?

[datasuspect]

156. can you please ask

a less nonsensical question?

if i said "yes" would you feel better?

if i said "no" would you try to use some tortured logic to try and wrestle a "yes?"

your question is idiotic.

[Hey Zeus]

157. your disgust with our armed forces makes no sense to me

have you had a bad experience with them?

[datasuspect]

159. yeah

they raided my village and killed all the men and raped all the women.

what's your point?

i guess you think i'm angry too.

what you are trying to do is set up some ad hominem attacks because you have no argument. you're using a delicious red herring as bait.

please post to me again when you have something worthwhile to say.

[Hey Zeus]

160. you don't seem to like..

someone pointing out the problem you have with the armed forces. this was no innocent man that was killed. or do you feel he was?

[datasuspect]

161. yes

i have a problem with the armed forces

it was an innocent man

can you go away now?

[Hey Zeus]

162. innocent as in civilian...

or innocent as in took up arms against our soldiers and tried to kill them? please reveal your source for this information.

[datasuspect]

166. what do you mean by source?

primary, secondary, or otherwise?

would you like military source documents, strategy briefs, or other documents?

would a collection of information culled from secondary sources satisfy you?

do you even know what the hell qualifies as a decent source?

what sources do you have?

how do you know our soldiers didn't take up arms against them and try to kill them?

are the u.s. soldiers innocent? give me your source. your attempt at an argument is absurd.

I AM GIVING YOU MY OPINION AS YOU ARE GIVING ME YOURS.

this is something that cannot admit of academic proof.

get a clue.

[Hey Zeus]

167. i simply reserve judgement to hear the facts...

you assume the soldiers involved are murderers and liars.

[datasuspect]

171. how do you know

what i assume? where does the "liar" part come in? what is your source?

anybody who takes another person's life is a murderer.

jesus, aren't abortionists murderers? and they only take fetuses.

[Hey Zeus]

177. source for what?

are abortionists murderers? do you also claim to know when life begins, as you claim to know what happened in this incident?

[datasuspect]

178. i was being sarcastic

because you seem so hung up on sources.

why are so hung up on sources?

define "sources" to me. seriously. i want you to DEFINE what you mean by sources.

don't start playing innocent now.

[Hey Zeus]

180. actually..

just looking for an admission that you don't know and just assume because of a predisposed dislike for the military

[datasuspect]

181. what do i not know?

what do you know?

you're trying to convince me of your OPINION.

that is probably all you know.

you win.

are you happy now?

[Hey Zeus]

183. i have not tried to convince you of anything...

just understand your dislike of the military.

[datasuspect]

186. then why are you still posting?

are you really that interested in my opinion?

i'm really flattered.

[Hey Zeus]

194. not really...

just like to see through the haze to the crux of the issue. which i am now SOMEWHAT sure is not the well being of this innocent insurgent.

[datasuspect]

184. btw

let me just ask you this then: what qualifies as a primary source?

if you can answer this correctly, i will take you seriously.

[Hey Zeus]

185. not you. or me.

if you doubt the process to investigate the incident, you will never be satisfied. if you feel that those we are fighting there are innocent, you will never support the military. what do sources have to do with it.

[datasuspect]

189. do you refuse

to define what qualifies as a primary source?

i want to take you seriously.

if you had good sources to back up your opinion, i could be swayed.

but i need to know if you know what qualifies as a source.

[Hey Zeus]

191. the soldiers on the ground, their commanding officers...

the investigators that will process the facts and evidence and the person that announces the results.

still not you.

[datasuspect]

163. or how about

let me come into your backyard and kick your door in.

let me humiliate you, your family, and your countrymen.

oh, and you better be grateful for the freedom i give you to.

this goes beyond patriotism and feelgood lee-greenwoodism.

this country is sick as hell and you seem to like genocide.

why do you like genocide? why are you so disgusted with the iraqi people?

[Hey Zeus]

165. i support our troops in their mission...

they fight for your freedom to do otherwise.

[datasuspect]

168. they fight for my freedom

ohhhhhhhhhhh . . .

i get it now.

what freedom is that?

the same freedom they are fighting to give to the iraqi people they are slaughtering?

what is their mission? what is your source?

how do you know what they are fighting for? what is your source?

[Hey Zeus]

170. do you hate them so?

would you spit on them i wonder??

[datasuspect]

173. woo boy

i was waiting for the "hate/anger" card.

i've known plenty of murderers.

i wouldn't necessarily spit on them.

but i wouldn't play all kissy-face with them either and get a hard on for them.

[Hey Zeus]

175. ok, do you dislike them so?(nt)

[datasuspect]

176. what are you?/what are you on?

i am starting to dislike you.

i could go to freeperville to have this kind of "discussion."

[Hey Zeus]

182. really...

what do you discuss there?

[datasuspect]

187. *Could*

is the operative word.

i *could* find this kind of inanity and half-baked argument in that world.

and let me apologize for having a laugh at your expense.

i'll be good now.

[Hey Zeus]

188. *could* indicating some experience.

apology accepted. i apologize for being a former member of a group you despise so.

[datasuspect]

190. why'd you make the transition

it's a heady time for the neo-fascists.

[Hey Zeus]

193. what transition?

from not supporting our troops to not?

[RBHam]

158. Another thing to consider...

Here is the problem with this video. Every resistance fighter, indeed every single Iraqi citizen, now knows for a fact that the US will not take prisoners. Surrender means death, therefore there is no reason for the Iraqi people not to fight to the death.

The US is now in the position of having to exterminate an entire people to "win" this war, a war based on lies and deceptions to start with.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

174. Abu Ghraib made the prisoner option a bit less desirable

anyways, but this certainly is bad propoganda. Can't get much worse.

[Karenina]

179. And so far, American citizens

are willing to go along as Iraqis ain't nuthin' but "sand niggers" anyway sitting on top of a resource their gub'mint sees fit to control BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

169. i say FUCK that Marine FUCK bush FUCK rumsfeld may they ROT in HELL

[Ironpost]

199. I wish I could apologize for this and make it all go away, but I can't.

15 months in 'Namn and I couldn't, wouldn't. This war is so SAD. And may I say avoidable.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

200. Real nice

condem our entire country for the actions of one person. I agree with your other points but you have to remember at least 1/2 of us are against this crap. More if you count those who were not allowed to vote. Not to mention your country does not exactly have a spotless record throughout history. Now I know how the German underground felt.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

201. Considering Blair's party is expected to win the next election...

I don't think the British have that great a leader either.