U.S. Senate passes bill to block aid to Hamas government

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"The United States Senate on Friday passed a bill that blocks United States aid from going to the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority but gives humanitarian relief to the Palestinian people and supports Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.

The Senate bill gives the Bush administration more discretion to provide relief to the cash-starved Palestinians than a more punitive measure passed by the House of Representatives in May.

The Senate unanimously approved the bill and it now must be reconciled with the House version, which the administration opposed.

U.S. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) said the bill will ensure the Hamas-led PA will not receive aid until it recognizes Israel, but added that it will not prevent Washington from: "providing assistance directly to the Palestinian people to meet basic humanitarian needs."

AIPAC President Howard Friedman and Executive Director Howard praised the U.S. senate for passing the bill."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/730739.html

[BayCityProgressive]

1. Good.

[manic expression]

5. What?

withdrawing aid because we don't like the government Palestine elected is "good"? Pure blackmail is "good"? Reactionary injustice against an entire people is "good"? Supporting a murderous government (Israel) and invading a country for no reason (Iraq) while claiming that Hamas is bad is "good"? Are you serious?

Get a grip.

[BayCityProgressive]

12. are YOU serious?

You can't even bring yourself to admit that a political party that supports driving Israel into the sea and terrorism is bad? Shows what kind of a person you are. Thank God you don't hold political office, I'd be forced to vote GOP. Israel a nation of murderers? I think YOU need to get a grip, stop taking lessons from hamas and Arafat and get on some good medications.

[manic expression]

14. Quite serious

First, Hamas won elections fair and square. It's called democracy, get used to it.

The Palestinian people are tired of being kicked around and treated like crap by Israel, so they voted for people who would stand up against them. Furthermore, Hamas had been honoring their cease-fire, but stopped after Israel blatantly shelled a family at a beach picnic. That was justified, Israel was far from it.

As to another point, Israel's actions for its entire existence has been toward the destruction and oppression of Palestine. Murder, theft and injustice is Israel's MO. While you delude yourself with a persecution complex over Hamas' goal to win back Palestinian land, Israel has continuously driven Palestinians off their land, which is effectively ethnic cleansing, all the while killing at will. Palestinian children are routinely targeted by Israeli forces, settlements are clearly an effort of ethnic cleansing, Palestinians are constantly attacked for no reason, Israel limits Palestinians' abilities to travel, live and more.

Try looking at reality. The reality is that Hamas was elected and have a right to office without reprisals. The reality is that Israel has been murdering, oppressing and stealing from Palestinians since time immemorial. The reality is that the Palestinian people deserve representation and a government which will stand up for them, and Hamas has the potential to accomplish both (they already have accomplished the first). The reality is that you are wrong and then some. Get a grip on that.

[BayCityProgressive]

16. I have a firm grip on reality

unfortunately you and your militant allies do not. I accept that Palestine democratically elected murderers and terrorists. Do I have to support that? No. The only reason Hamas has not continued large scale attacks on Israel is because now that they are in power the international community wouldnt allow it. YOU try listening to facts. FACT Jews have lived in Palestine for thousands of years. FACT the land European Jews lived on thru the late 1890's thru the early 20th century was bought fair and square. The Jews good farming and business practices actually attracted many Palestinians. FACT Palestine has never been a nation. FACT Husseini supported Hitler and ever since him, the Palestinians have worked to destroy Israel. FACT the international community gave both parties an independant state. Even though the Jewish state was not contigous they accepted. The Palestinians did not an the whole Arab world vowed to kill all Jews. FACT nearly one million Jews were forced out of Arab lands with only the clothes on their backs. FACT Arabs in every war with Israel have made it a point to target dense civilian populations to kill as many Jews as possible. FACT Arafat and his wife stole millions from the Palestinians..his wife lived in France and said she would be honored for her son to be a suicide bomber if she had one. FACT Hamas does not admit Israel has a right to exist and the Palestinians celebrate "the catastrophe" the creation of Israel. FACT the media and education system in Palestine teaches anti-semetism to the population. FACT Palestinians know they are rewarded by the international community for acts of terrorism. Europeans hold Israel to higher human rights standard than they do Palestine and THAT is racist. FACT Hamas attacks it's own citizens and disrupts it's own commuities. THOSE are the facts. I am sorry you support them.

[Scurrilous]

18. Do you have links for these 'facts'...

...or should we just take your word for it?

[BayCityProgressive]

20. please

I see you putting no argument forward. Because you don't have one. All you have is "Ra Ra Hamas" sorry I'm not playing.

[manic expression]

29. More like

"Ra Ra representation".

Too bad you seem to have a problem with democracy.

Who said they have a right to vote anyway? :eyes:

[BayCityProgressive]

21. sure

I can provide links for this...it will take some time though which I did not have when posting. However, if you would like to private message I would be more than happy to send you information. You can do what you wish with it.

[manic expression]

27. No, you don't

You accept only half of the equation here. Palestinians elected who they wanted to, and you have no right to dispute their choice, lest you openly show disdain for representation itself (make up your mind). Next, the fact remains that Hamas was keeping to the peace until Israel murdered a family (what about "murderers and terrorists"?), so it had less to do with the international community than you try to make it seem.

This should be good:

"FACT Jews have lived in Palestine for thousands of years."

Yes they did, and they lived there in relative peace. However, that was before the Zionists stuck their nose in the region and started their little adventure in ethnic cleansing. If the Zionists never got anywhere, there is no reason to believe that the descendents of the same Jews would not be living in the same places in the same relative peace. So, really, the Zionists messed that whole situation up.

"FACT the land European Jews lived on thru the late 1890's thru the early 20th century was bought fair and square."

That's not false either. However, the real trouble started after the Zionists started getting a firmer foothold:

"In 1922, a British census showed the Jewish population had risen to about 11% of Palestine's 750,000 inhabitants. More than 300,000 immigrants arrived in the next 15 years.

Zionist-Arab antagonism boiled over into violent clashes in August 1929 when 133 Jews were killed by Palestinians and 110 Palestinians died at the hands of the British police.

Arab discontent again exploded into widespread civil disobedience during a general strike in 1936. By this time, the militant Zionist group Irgun Zvai Leumi was orchestrating attacks on Palestinian and British targets with the aim of "liberating" Palestine and Transjordan (modern-day Jordan) by force."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1929_36.stm

"FACT Palestine has never been a nation."

So what? Yeah, the Sikhs have never had a nation either, so I guess it's OK to kill, evict and oppress them! Oh and the Tutsis! They never had a nation so what's the problem with the Hutus chopping them in the streets? :puke: :sarcasm:

"FACT Husseini supported Hitler and ever since him, the Palestinians have worked to destroy Israel."

The Palestinians have been fighting Israel as a matter of necessity, and that fight is not unreasonable. Also, the Zionists had purported ties to Hitler as well.

"FACT the international community gave both parties an independant state."

I knew that. The thing is that this deal was completely ridiculous, and if you actually look at it, the Zionists got more of the land even though they had less of the population. Oops. Moreover, immediately after this deal, Israelis started to "cleanse" their land, as well as make incursions into the Arab land in order to steal it. Oh, and how does this square with your "no Palestinian nation" claim?

"The first 'clearing' operations were conducted against Palestinian villages by Jewish forces in December."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1947.stm

"Jewish forces, backed by the Irgun and Lehi militant groups made more progress, seizing areas alloted to the Jewish state but also conquering substantial territories allocated for the Palestinian one.

Irgun and Lehi massacred scores of inhabitants of the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem on 9 April. Word of the massacre spread terror among Palestinians and hundreds of thousands fled to Lebanon, Egypt and the area now known as the West Bank."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1948.stm

"Even though the Jewish state was not contigous they accepted."



"FACT nearly one million Jews were forced out of Arab lands with only the clothes on their backs."

I ask you why that would happen. After so many years of living there, they would be forced out at that moment. What could possibly prompt a government to do that at that moment? Hmmm....

"FACT Arabs in every war with Israel have made it a point to target dense civilian populations to kill as many Jews as possible."

Back that up. Here's something:

"Israel seized Gaza and the Sinai from Egypt in the south and the Golan Heights from Syria in the north. It also pushed Jordanian forces out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Egypt's powerful air force was put out of action on the first day of fighting when Israeli jets bombed it on the ground in a pre-emptive strike."

Do you know what "pre-emptive strike" means? Let me give you a hint: Israel attacked first.

Don't even make me rattle off the endless list of Israeli massacres of innocents (that continues today).

"FACT Arafat and his wife stole millions from the Palestinians..his wife lived in France and said she would be honored for her son to be a suicide bomber if she had one."

I've always like France. Oh, what's your point? This is hardly a watermark in Palestinian-Israeli relations, nor does it involve Hamas. Next.

"FACT Hamas does not admit Israel has a right to exist and the Palestinians celebrate 'the catastrophe' the creation of Israel."

That's because Israel was borne of theft from Palestinians. That's because Israel continues to murder and oppress Palestinians today. That isn't unexpected or unnatural. It's a reaction to the atrocities that Israel has brought upon the Palestinian people (not to mention others). And that day is one that will live in infamy in Palestinian (and sane) hearts for the reasons I mentioned.

"FACT the media and education system in Palestine teaches anti-semetism to the population."

They hardly need to teach anti-Israeli sentiments to children who are shot at by Israeli troops. They need not teach ill-feelings toward a country which has caused so much terror and injustice to the people who feel the brunt of it. That's like saying the Tibetan educational system teaches kids to hate China.

"FACT Palestinians know they are rewarded by the international community for acts of terrorism."

I think it rather silly to expect the UN to send care baskets to anti-Israeli terrorists. But then again, that's just me.

"Europeans hold Israel to higher human rights standard than they do Palestine and THAT is racist."

OK now I'm cracking up. Wait, let me catch my breath. OK, look, "Europeans" is vague, but I'll go with you anway. A lot of people expect Israel to NOT murder people and destroy their homes, but they do it anyway. Next, people expect Israel not to build walls on other people's land. People expect Israel to behave in a sane and justified manner, but they do not. However, to say that anyone is racist for doing so is just insane and delusional. It is equally delusional to claim that the world somehow has it in for Israel, because Israel has the only superpower in the world at its back, and the UN can just make meaningless gestures which Israel inevitably ignores (to continue with their lust for land). Your persecution complex doesn't work. You really outdid yourself on this one. Racist for objecting to obvious crimes and injustices? Seriously, that is the most misled thing I've read in awhile.

"FACT Hamas attacks it's own citizens and disrupts it's own commuities."

Link, source and context. There are skirmishes with other groups, but that is expected in such a situation (a kind of power vacuum and other factors). Oh, and I'm sitting here with the image of Israeli bulldozers "disrupting" communities in a destructive sort of way. However, I have no doubt you'll just ignore that and keep screaming about Hamas. Typical.

That is reality, something you have no comprehension of. The facts clearly show that you are most assuredly direly delusional and mistaken.

[funnymanpants]

32. You need to get your facts straight

>>FACT Jews have lived in Palestine for thousands of years.

The Jews comprised of less than 5% of the population when they decided to colonize the what we now call Israel/the occupied territories. They increased their population through illegal immigration.

>>FACT the land European Jews lived on thru the late 1890's thru the early 20th century was bought fair and square.

Israel was granted part of the land through a UN general counsel resolution. Two ad hoc committees determined that this resolution was in violation of the UN itself. Notwithstanding, Israel took more land than was granted them in the '47-'48 war. In addition, Israel seized even more land in the '67 war. Numerous UN Security council resolutions, legally binding, have told Israel to cease occupying this land. Instead, even as I write this, Israel illegally creates more settlement on this land.


>>The Jews good farming and business practices actually attracted many Palestinians.

You are repeating a myth put fourth in the notorious inaccurate Joan Peters book. Israel historians and demographers don't agree with this assessment.

>>FACT Palestine has never been a nation.

Irrelevant. The American Indians were never a nation, either.

>>FACT Husseini supported Hitler and ever since him, the Palestinians have worked to destroy Israel.

There were also some Jewish people in the region who supported Hitler. Further, Israel has launched numerous illegal wars and has tried to push Palestinians off the land.

>>FACT the international community gave both parties an independent state. Even though the Jewish state was not contigous they accepted. The Palestinians did not an the whole Arab world vowed to kill all Jews.

See my point above. The Jews only owned about 5% of the land, so the international community had no right to give away what was not there's. Further, Israel got a much better deal than the Palestinians, getting the fertile parts and much more coast. And as historians have shown, Israel did not just accept their portion, though they give lip service to doing so. They seized more land in the '47-'48 war.

>>FACT nearly one million Jews were forced out of Arab lands with only the clothes on their backs.

Many of the Jews left voluntarily. But besides, what has this to do with the Palestinians? Bring up that issue with countries that forced them out.

>>FACT Arabs in every war with Israel have made it a point to target dense civilian populations to kill as many Jews as possible.

I don't know what your source is, but Israel targeted civilians in the Lebanon war, which it started illegally. Further, every human rights group which has looked at Israel's behavior in the occupied territories has noted that Israel is responsible for "deliberate killings" and "torture," to quote one such report.

>>FACT Arafat and his wife stole millions from the Palestinians..his wife lived in France and said she would be honored for her son to be a suicide bomber if she had one.

Arrafat was corrupt. So what? I would like to see a source for your second quote.

>>FACT Hamas does not admit Israel has a right to exist and the Palestinians celebrate "the catastrophe" the creation of Israel.

Yes, but Israel doesn't accept the right of the Palestinians to exist, as evidence by their continue illegal actions. And Hamas stance is just grand-standing. In fact, didn't they recently accept Israel's existence?


>>FACT the media and education system in Palestine teaches anti-semetism to the population.

This is an overstatement and ignores the hatred taught by extreme Jewish settlers.

>>FACT Palestinians know they are rewarded by the international community for acts of terrorism. Europeans hold Israel to higher human rights standard than they do Palestine and THAT is racist.

That's not a fact at all. That's a general statement.

My sources are Shlaim's *The Iron Wall,* *How Israel was won,* The UN history of the region, a long document produced by many historians, and years and years of reading.

[funnymanpants]

33. Who denies whose right to exist?

>>Hamas does not admit Israel has a right to exist

And how do you interpret this statment:

"We firmly and definitely have the historical rights to the land between the Jordan and the sea," Olmert, the Prime Minister said

http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20060622-014223-3627r

To those who are anaware of the situation, Olmert has said that Israel has a "historic" right to *all* of the occupied territories. He is denying the right of the Palestinians to exist.

Perhaps later in the speach he modified what he said. But from this one quote, he seems as guilty as Hamas.

[951-Riverside]

8. Wonderful.

Depriving aid to the 'tourists' works for me.

[ShortnFiery]

2. We have a nation of warmongers - we need diplomats. IMO this sucks!

[Bush_MUST_Go]

3. It's the only sensible way to proceed.

[manic expression]

6. How so? n/t

[manic expression]

4. Disgusting

this is blatant blackmail. We don't like who the Palestinians elected so we withdraw aid? Simply disgusting.

[BayCityProgressive]

13. No I don't like that the Palestinians

elected terrorists to runtheir government, most Americans and Europeans don't either. How would you liek to live under Islamic law? How would you like being Israel and have the threat of these nuts at your doorstep all the while being funded by the international community? Fuck Hamas.

[manic expression]

15. Terrorists

are people who shell families at beach picnics. Terrorists shoot innocents down for no reason. Terrorists bulldoze homes and evict entire families. Terrorists fire rockets into refugee camps.

That is what Israel does.

I would like to elect who I think would do the best job. This is what the Palestinian people would like to do and HAVE done, and you have no place to insult them for that. Secondly, who are you to say what kind of law they should live under? That reeks colonialism, but that is unfortunately the least of your mistakes.

How would you like to NOT murder people and steal land? How would you like to NOT oppress an entire people? Well, Israel LIKES to do that and worse. So no, I wouldn't like to be Israel because I wouldn't like to partake in such injustice. Furthermore, Hamas is fighting against those crimes, which to any sane person is not unexpected.

Yeah, fuck representation. Fuck justice. Fuck the facts. Fuck reality. That pretty much sums up your delusional mindset right there.

[mconvente]

26. Gotta admit, Israel seems to overextend its boundaries a lot

Figuratively and physically. They say that want peace but then bomb the Palestine people to hell - can't have it both ways.

[manic expression]

30. Very true n/t

[Terran1212]

19. Hamas stayed peaceful after their win

They didn't committ a single violent act until Israel shelled their beaches. And Israel has launched more than 6,000 shells into Palestine since the "ceasefire" (in just two months, actually) and killed scores of Palestinians.

If you were being crushed and occupied -- well, you'd fight back in any way possible as well. Elect ANYONE who fights back no matter how disgusting they are.


Oh, and Palestinians don't live under "Islamic Law"

Anti-Arab = YOU

[IndianaGreen]

7. Time for Congress to collect their AIPAC campaign contributions

Hamas may be a terrorist group committed to the destruction of Israel, but their election victory was democratic and they do represent the Palestinian people.

US should stay out of the Middle East.

[ShortnFiery]

9. "US should stay out of the Middle East."

I'm sure it's a beautiful place if that's where you're from. However, I (and the vast majority of American Citizens) have no desire to even go and visit the Middle East, much less have our Imperial Army occupy any of THEIR LAND.

Let's get our USA "Imperial wannabe asses" out of there A.S.A.P.!

[Imajika]

10. Your right...

"Hamas may be a terrorist group committed to the destruction of Israel, but their election victory was democratic and they do represent the Palestinian people."

Yup, and Bush pushed for this election too. Careful what you wish for......

[Terran1212]

11. Starving the Palestinians to death will only lead to more extremism

This isn't a "move for peace" or anything like that. It's a clear message to Palestine: "You vote the way you want, you suffer."

[partylessinOhio]

17. This is horrible. All of these jerks need to be tossed out of our gov't.

Bush has not been fair to the Palestinians. Arafat's blood is on his hands. It just makes me ill to have witnessed how the Palestinians have suffered as they have been treated so unfairly.

[BayCityProgressive]

22. LOL good luck

run for office against one supporting Hamas. We will see how far you get!

[Bush_MUST_Go]

24. The USA is required to support EVERY govt. if it is elected? Amazing.

[Terran1212]

25. You don't create dependency with aid over many years...

...and then take it away as some political tool, starving its people.

[ixion]

23. and yet we still aid the rogue state Israel

mind boggling. :crazy:

[ckramer]

28. Democracies are not born equal?

"AIPAC President Howard Friedman and Executive Director Howard praised the U.S. senate for passing the bill"

That tells us a lot about who the boss is.

[wellst0nev0ter]

31. I'm More Concerned That Israel Is Withholding Palestinian Tax Monies

If that doesn't illustrate the assymetrical apartheid situation the Palestinians are in, what does?

[Poll_Blind]

34. Israel and the United States: Walking gauntlet in gauntlet to destroy...

...the Palestinian government so that continued colonialism, imperialist expansion, in short manifest destiny can continue...

PB

[Poll_Blind]

35. An invitation to the Israel/Palestine forum...

HERE is a link to the Israel/Palestine forum.

NOTE: Messages posted in this forum are covered by a long series of rules and subrules in addition to the regular rules which cover transactions on Democratic Underground. HERE is a link to those rules.

Read them.

Understand them.

Love them or hate them but follow them.

Then post. It's a little investment of time and understanding which will benefit you greatly.

PB