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2016 Postmortem
In reply to the discussion: Even if Bernie Sanders doesn't win the primary, he has given every indication that he will [View all]Jarqui
(10,131 posts)81. Is David Johnson of the NYT ok?
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/05/us/memo-places-hillary-clinton-at-core-of-travel-office-case.html?pagewanted=all
Now, what exactly did Mr Safire get wrong in that example of Hillary's deception. Not a damn thing.
LA Times better?
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jun/23/news/mn-44043
Is there anything there that materially contradicts William Safire's example?
Nope.
You can go through each one of those examples in my post. There is video and/or documentation to back them up. I refer to the Washington Post Pinocchios. Politico. The set of four email lies. The Bosnia sniper lie. the Irish peace lie. NAFTA lie. etc. None of those references relied on Goldberg or Safire or the right wing. But we're supposed to ignore all of Clinton's lying because Safire and Goldberg also observed it and took the time to describe it with real examples? Ridiculous. Not everything everybody says is wrong unless you like them and embrace their point of view. Safire and Goldberg made their case with real examples of Hillary's deceitful behavior. Shooting them as messengers is not going to change that in the eye of the public. Either Hillary lied or she didn't. In the cases I noted that they brought up, the vast majority of the public would regard them as Safire & Goldberg did: as lies. It doesn't matter who wrote about them - Hillary lied.
In the memorandum, apparently intended for Thomas F. McLarty, who was the White House chief of staff, Mr. Watkins wrote that "we both know that there would be hell to pay" if "we failed to take swift and decisive action in conformity with the First Lady's wishes."
Now, what exactly did Mr Safire get wrong in that example of Hillary's deception. Not a damn thing.
LA Times better?
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jun/23/news/mn-44043
Mrs. Clinton maintained that she played no part in the firings.
"Mrs. Clinton does not know the origin of the decision to remove the White House travel office employees," her lawyers told congressional auditors in 1994. They added that the first lady "did not direct that any action be taken."
Mrs. Clinton told Congress in 1996 that the earlier answers "were accurate."
But later that year a memo surfaced from then-presidential aide David Watkins stating that the first lady had been behind the firings. The matter was then referred by Atty. Gen. Janet Reno to Starr, who began submitting evidence about the controversy to a federal grand jury.
Specifically, Starr examined whether Watkins perjured himself during a congressional investigation of the episode when he insisted under oath that Mrs. Clinton had not played any role in the firings.
During lengthy hearings by a Republican-led House committee, the White House later surrendered memos written by Watkins that suggested Mrs. Clinton had instigated the firings at the urging of Hollywood producer Harry Thomason, a longtime friend of the Clintons who was seeking a share of the White House travel business.
The nonpolitical travel office, staffed by career employees, is in charge of making all travel arrangements for the White House press corps, whose members reimburse the office for expenses incurred in covering the president on his travels throughout the world.
President Clinton later apologized for the firings and offered other jobs in the government to most of those who had been dismissed.
Is there anything there that materially contradicts William Safire's example?
Nope.
You can go through each one of those examples in my post. There is video and/or documentation to back them up. I refer to the Washington Post Pinocchios. Politico. The set of four email lies. The Bosnia sniper lie. the Irish peace lie. NAFTA lie. etc. None of those references relied on Goldberg or Safire or the right wing. But we're supposed to ignore all of Clinton's lying because Safire and Goldberg also observed it and took the time to describe it with real examples? Ridiculous. Not everything everybody says is wrong unless you like them and embrace their point of view. Safire and Goldberg made their case with real examples of Hillary's deceitful behavior. Shooting them as messengers is not going to change that in the eye of the public. Either Hillary lied or she didn't. In the cases I noted that they brought up, the vast majority of the public would regard them as Safire & Goldberg did: as lies. It doesn't matter who wrote about them - Hillary lied.
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Even if Bernie Sanders doesn't win the primary, he has given every indication that he will [View all]
Fast Walker 52
Dec 2015
OP
All true, but another real telling point that for me makes her complicit is that instead
Dustlawyer
Dec 2015
#49
Yeah, you're most justified in "shooting the messengers" if they are william safire and jonah efn
Cha
Dec 2015
#98
Do you always use virulently right-wing sources to "prove" your points, or is this a one-off?
MADem
Dec 2015
#67
He took a golden parachute six years ago--all you've got are Republicans and retirees.
MADem
Dec 2015
#90
Nope. What we really have is the lame hope that we'd fall for someone shooting the messenger
Jarqui
Dec 2015
#93
The TOS only says Jarqui must not be a wingnut neo-con freak / right-winger; not his sources...
JonLeibowitz
Dec 2015
#104
I judge people by the company they keep. If a person keeps using right wing sources to
MADem
Dec 2015
#105
Ah, the NYT, the 'Grey Lady.' Ever since they hired Judy Miller, I don't think much of them, either!
MADem
Dec 2015
#108
Yeah they have fallen quite a bit in repute. I try to be a lot more careful to look at facts,
JonLeibowitz
Dec 2015
#111
"He voted against the resolution when he knew his vote would not make a difference"
Jarqui
Dec 2015
#123
Nothing, but nothing will keep me from voting for Hillary in the General Election!
onehandle
Dec 2015
#2
We have our own minds. My candidate doesn't cast my vote in the booth. I'll cast my vote for the
Ed Suspicious
Dec 2015
#3
My support for Bernie is about a lot of things, most especially his track record of fighting for the
Ed Suspicious
Dec 2015
#74
and if Bernie doesn't get the nomination and his supporters fail to heed his endorsement
onenote
Dec 2015
#77
The party has gone out of its way to insult liberals and Sanders supporters, and the hillarians
Doctor_J
Dec 2015
#11
To be honest as a Hillary Supporter I have not felt the olive branch and have been hit
Thinkingabout
Dec 2015
#43
One person, one vote. Our vote is ours to cast, not Bernie's. No one tells another person
in_cog_ni_to
Dec 2015
#12
I don't like her, she's fake, insincere, and a liar, but I will vote for her. She's
JRLeft
Dec 2015
#14
Let's not pretend Hillary winning is a good thing, she's bad for America, because
JRLeft
Dec 2015
#27
People often say things in the heat of the moment that they may not totally mean,
Blue_In_AK
Dec 2015
#32
Anyone who says they won't vote for the Democratic candidate in the general....
mac2766
Dec 2015
#38
The people who will or won't vote for the nominee on DU are irrelivent in the grand scheme.
RichVRichV
Dec 2015
#113
sure... but if you respect his ideas greatly, won't you respect his endorsement?
Fast Walker 52
Dec 2015
#71
If we're playing some sort of non-sequitur game, I'll point out that it's partly cloudy outside
onenote
Dec 2015
#88
It's not a non-sequitur. It demonstrates your claim about total numbers is not actually true.
jeff47
Dec 2015
#89
a number of Hillary supporters have said that they would never support Bernie
Douglas Carpenter
Dec 2015
#95
People should vote their conscience and not merely how others tell them to vote
aikoaiko
Dec 2015
#102
I think Hillary supporter comments, DWS and Hillary's own snark may have a lot to do with it. nt
Live and Learn
Dec 2015
#103
This is larger than Bernie. That's why even if he doesn't win his message will continue.
liberal_at_heart
Dec 2015
#112
Being a bernie supporter has nothing to do with the fact that I will NOT vote for hill
bowens43
Dec 2015
#126