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2016 Postmortem

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madfloridian

(88,117 posts)
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 04:19 PM Oct 2015

Let's talk Third Way. Some links about its founding and the founders. [View all]

One link I found at The Guardian in 2003 recounts the founding and purpose from the point of view of Tony Blair.

A brief history of the third way

What was the third way all about?
The so-called third way is New Labour's attempt to build itself an ideological foundation. In the face of accusations that the decision to re-christen the party and re-write clause IV was motivated purely by electoralism, Tony Blair and Peter Mandelson sought to prove their ideological convictions.

.....Wasn't Bill Clinton involved?
Bill Clinton's electoral success after renaming his party the New Democrats was an inspiration to Mr Blair and his fellow Labour modernisers. Both shared the belief that a new ideological compass was needed.

In September 1998, Mr Clinton and Mr Blair held a conference in New York to officially launch their new ideology. Both said they rejected the neo-liberal belief that everything can be left to the market, but also saw the traditional left-of-centre faith in state intervention in the economy as outdated.

.....What's the state of play now?
Three years on, however, the outlook for the third way looks bleak. A Republican is in the White House and Mr Schröder has turned away from his earlier fascination with the Clinton-Blair outlook towards a more traditional leftwing stance.


TIME carried an article about this in 1998. They called it the Third Way Wonkfest. The link is still there, but it's behind a firewall. I saved a few paragraphs.

Tony Blair, the New Dems and the Third Way Wonkfest 1998.

After Bill Clinton and Tony Blair finish with the elegant dinners and toasts at the G-8 summit this week in England, the real fun begins: the two leaders will lock themselves in a room with a clutch of top officials to talk about government policy for four or five hours. The Sunday meeting at Chequers, the Prime Minister's country mansion north of London, will be the third such bilateral seminar, following one at the White House, when Blair visited in February, and the inaugural 12-hr. "wonkathon" at Chequers in November, when Hillary Clinton sat in for her husband.

The lofty chatfests symbolize the intimate political relationship between Clinton, a "new Democrat," and Blair, creator of new Labour. Each claims to embody a type of politics that is not just a poll-driven centrism but a "third way," a favorite Blair slogan and a phrase that Clinton highlighted in this year's State of the Union message. "Both governments have to react to challenges like globalization and better education for workers, and we have similar perspectives on what's needed," says White House aide Sidney Blumenthal, who organizes the meetings with his British counterpart, David Miliband, Blair's policy chief.

On the agenda for Chequers are social security, welfare, crime, health policy and education, with eight to 10 participants from each side.


The DLC, a very strong think tank at the time, were very pleased that Tony Blair was in support of the Iraq War. In fact they even named the Democrats who voted for the war the "Blair Democrats."

From the WP

The Blair Democrats: Ready for Battle

Will Marshall May 1, 2003

The U.S.-led coalition's stunning success in liberating Iraq is undoubtedly a triumph for President Bush. But Karl Rove shouldn't get too giddy, because it may be a boon for some Democrats, too.

After all, four of the leading Democratic presidential contenders -- Rep. Dick Gephardt and Sens. Joseph Lieberman, John Kerry and John Edwards -- not only voted to support the war but also joined British Prime Minister Tony Blair in demanding that Bush challenge the United Nations to live up to its responsibilities to disarm Iraq. This position put these "Blair Democrats" in sync with the vast majority of Americans who said they would much rather attack Saddam Hussein's regime with United Nations backing than without it. And it puts them at odds with what Kerry called the "blustery unilateralism" of the president, which combined with French obstructionism to rupture not only the United Nations but the Atlantic alliance as well.

Like Bush, these Democrats did not shrink from the use of force to end Hussein's reign of terror. Like Blair, they saw the Iraq crisis as a test of Western resolve and the United Nations' credibility as an effective instrument of collective security.


And from Lee Fang at The Nation in 2013:

GOP Donors and K Street Fuel Third Way’s Advice for the Democratic Party

Third Way, a centrist think tank that portrays itself as a Democratic group, has some advice for the party: avoid economic populism at all costs. In a column for The Wall Street Journal today, the group argues that the party should steer clear of creating a strong safety net, and criticizes Mayor-elect Bill de Blasio’s call for universal pre-K funded through an upper-income tax increase as a foolhardy idea for national Democrats.


......Buried inside the annual report for Third Way is a revelation that the group relies on a peculiar DC consulting firm to raise half a million a year: Peck, Madigan, Jones & Stewart. Peck Madigan is no ordinary nonprofit buckraiser. The group is, in fact, a corporate lobbying firm that represents Deutsche Bank, Intel, the Business Roundtable, Amgen, AT&T, the International Swaps & Derivatives Association, MasterCard, New York Life Insurance, PhRMA and the US Chamber of Commerce, among others.

The two organizations complement each other well. Peck Madigan signs as a lobbyist for the government of New Zealand on the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade deal; Third Way aggressively promotes the deal. Peck Madigan clients push for entitlement cuts, and so does Third Way.

Notice that Humana, a major health insurance company, lists its $50,000 donation to Third Way not as a donation to a think tank but as part of its yearly budget spent on lobbying activity, up there with the Florida Chamber and other trade associations. The company views financial gifts to Third Way as part of its strategy for increasing its profit-making political influence.

What’s more, Third Way’s leadership has tenuous connections to the Democratic Party it hopes to shape. Daniel Loeb, a hedge fund manager listed as a trustee on Third Way’s 2012 annual disclosure, bundled $556,031 for Mitt Romney last year. Third Way board member Derek Kaufman, another hedge fund executive, also gave to Romney.


They call themselves "progressives", but they are not at all.

They represent everything that Bernie Sanders is opposing right now.

Bill Clinton was there at the founding of the DLC as well. The founder, Al From, made it clear they wanted to have a "bloodless revolution" in our Democratic Party.

The DLC group is sometimes portrayed as a pro-Wall Street set of lobbyists. And From did recruit hedge fund legends like Michael Steinhardt to fund his movement. But to argue these people were corrupt or motivated by a pay to play form of politics is wrong. From is clearly a reformer and an ideologue, and his colleagues believed they were serving the public interest. “Make no mistake about it,” wrote From in a memo about his organization’s strategy, “what we hope to accomplish with the DLC is a bloodless revolution in our party." It is not unlike what the conservatives accomplished in the Republican Party during the 1960s and 1970s.


Al From's words to Bill Clinton about NAFTA show whose interests the DLC and its new form, the Third Way, had in mind.

'“Politically, a victory on NAFTA would assert your leadership over your own party by making it clear that you, not the Democratic leadership in Congress or the interest groups, set the Democratic Party’s agenda on matters of real national importance.”


They may claim to be "progressives", but in thought and deed the two groups are/were "conservative."
230 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Thanks MohRokTah Oct 2015 #1
Glad you found your way. madfloridian Oct 2015 #2
It's the best way MohRokTah Oct 2015 #4
the present tk2kewl Oct 2015 #14
Space. eom MohRokTah Oct 2015 #20
Go for it, why wait? The rest of us will have more air and water after you leave. dreamnightwind Oct 2015 #49
Here you go... Purveyor Oct 2015 #58
Just like in Elysium? BeanMusical Oct 2015 #115
*** Squirrel !!! *** cprise Oct 2015 #205
Clinton is rejecting capitalism by refusing to break up banks cprise Oct 2015 #21
I love yr comment about her policies being like getting 20 bucks off of truedelphi Oct 2015 #35
Bravo, in a nutshell & well said! nt mother earth Oct 2015 #66
Thank you Ronald Reagan for your astute analysis Armstead Oct 2015 #23
:) Phlem Oct 2015 #61
Europe's Democratic Socialists are failures? That Guy 888 Oct 2015 #24
That's where they're going with the red baiting. beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #63
It has already begun: arcane1 Oct 2015 #69
Oh noes! BERNIE'S GONNA TAKE MY LEMONADE STAND!!1! beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #70
Government-run lemonade stands that all look like Soviet apartment blocks arcane1 Oct 2015 #73
LOL! beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #79
:facepalm: BeanMusical Oct 2015 #125
There's a difference between saying what Sanders himself says he is, i.e., "socialist"..... George II Oct 2015 #174
Canuks did Not Live Through the Era of McCarthy McKim Oct 2015 #183
Some people's understanding, such as the author of that thread, of socialism ... Fantastic Anarchist Oct 2015 #175
Communism-What is their military looking like? No Red Army? DhhD Oct 2015 #81
History proved that the New Deal was a resounding success n/t eridani Oct 2015 #180
I guess FDR and a middle class with the highest standard of living the world has ever known... raindaddy Oct 2015 #187
The game Monopoly proves Capitalism is an abysmal failure for all but one lone winner. Live and Learn Oct 2015 #188
I still support Sanders and oppose Hillary more than I did before this OP was posted. Autumn Oct 2015 #41
Why does this scenario come to mind? passiveporcupine Oct 2015 #52
You support Hillary? NO! BuelahWitch Oct 2015 #103
The only conclusion is that you support the leadership of corporations and their puppets and rhett o rick Oct 2015 #130
As I stated previously, anyone that doesn't support Sanders is voting for selfish reasons. Live and Learn Oct 2015 #189
Is Bill Clinton in the primaries? upaloopa Oct 2015 #3
Hillary Clinton was a member of the DLC riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #7
Still not about the primaries upaloopa Oct 2015 #11
So you don't think a candidates past history is relevant? riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #13
C'mon now. Not when it makes them look bad. Phlem Oct 2015 #56
Have you attempted to post any discussion in any forums lately? truedelphi Oct 2015 #37
They hearings yesterday were not about the primaries. Did you complain about those OPs? Autumn Oct 2015 #42
Make up your damned minds - TBF Oct 2015 #96
Obama was NEVER a member of the DLC. eom MohRokTah Oct 2015 #22
He self identifies as a "New Democrat" which is a DLC identifier riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #27
Same here. truedelphi Oct 2015 #40
Nothing in your link about him being in the DLC. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #85
Lol! Parse away... riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #90
The only parsing being done is by anybody who would say Obama was a member of the DLC. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #91
Lol!!! Oh I read it. Good luck with that... riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #102
Thanks for revealing just how much of an extremist you are. eom MohRokTah Oct 2015 #107
The irony! BeanMusical Oct 2015 #126
The heart break and reductio ad absurdum of Identity politics Fairgo Oct 2015 #152
Nope. Obama is a distinction without a difference riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #132
More extremism MohRokTah Oct 2015 #134
"radical leftist extremists" ? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #135
By their words they shall be known. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #136
Oh the extremist in this thread has made themselves known, all right. beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #137
You would certainly know. eom MohRokTah Oct 2015 #139
Yep, I can spot right wing rhetoric a mile away. beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #141
I can spot left wing extremism miles away and fortunately it has no effect outside internet forums. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #147
Conservative Dems: Words mean what we want them to mean on DU! beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #148
There is no such thing as "Conservative Dems". MohRokTah Oct 2015 #149
ahem: beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #150
Internet myth. There are no Conservative Democrats MohRokTah Oct 2015 #154
Just because you don't like the label doesn't mean it's a myth. beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #155
Parse all you like MohRokTah Oct 2015 #156
Parse = proved Conservative Democrats aren't a myth? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #157
No proof whatsoever, just leftist extremist BS. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #158
bluedogdems.com is "leftist extremist BS"? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #160
Keep digging. BeanMusical Oct 2015 #165
There is no such thing as "Global Warming"! BeanMusical Oct 2015 #162
LMAO! beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #163
Lol! BeanMusical Oct 2015 #164
I'm convinced that you are really great at satire or really awful at trolling. Fantastic Anarchist Oct 2015 #178
What exactly is a "radical leftist extremist?" blackspade Oct 2015 #206
Shame on those radical leftist extremists for bring us the 8-hour workday, labor laws, ... Fantastic Anarchist Oct 2015 #177
Actually, there are millions of sulphurdunn Oct 2015 #186
How dare he/she disagree with you! Fantastic Anarchist Oct 2015 #176
Unknown to him he was listed as a member, and as soon as he found out... George II Oct 2015 #172
He's DLC - there are really better things to discuss TBF Oct 2015 #182
There are a lot of political myths that are accepted as gospel by the majority of people here YoungDemCA Oct 2015 #194
It's weird. I wonder how many people here are really Birthers, too. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #202
His own words: madfloridian Oct 2015 #28
Sweet link. Phlem Oct 2015 #62
Nothing in your link about him being in the DLC. He was NEVER a member of the DLC. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #88
New Democrats rose from the DLC. Don't accuse me of falsehoods and innuendo. madfloridian Oct 2015 #123
Here's a link to help you. madfloridian Oct 2015 #124
Yet another link without anything about Obama being in the DLC. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #128
Being so obtuse is not a virtue, you do realize this, right? Fantastic Anarchist Oct 2015 #179
The ideologies of both Clintons parallel very closely with that of the old DLC and new Third Way. rhett o rick Oct 2015 #192
His own words: George II Oct 2015 #138
.... Phlem Oct 2015 #60
Nothing there about Obama being in the DLC. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #84
Of Course. Phlem Oct 2015 #170
If Sanders ever joined the Democratic Party... George II Oct 2015 #32
Or he could have stayed an Independent while voting for neverforget Oct 2015 #39
Like he did yesterday when he voted against a Dianne Feinstein amendment and... George II Oct 2015 #55
You mean when he stood with 12 Democrats to protect our privacy rights? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #57
He voted WITH Rand Paul and against the majority of Democrats. George II Oct 2015 #67
He stood with these 12 Democrats, not with Rand Paul: beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #68
All I know is that he voted with a Republican Presidential candidate and voted against.... George II Oct 2015 #71
12 Dems, and 1 republican = voting with the republican? arcane1 Oct 2015 #74
So you're hinting that he did NOT vote with someone who could be his opponent next November..... George II Oct 2015 #77
How many republican candidates in 2007 and 2015 voted for, or endorsed, the Iraq war? arcane1 Oct 2015 #80
He voted to protect our privacy rights, and so did Elizabeth Warren. beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #76
When Sanders entered the Democratic Presidential race one the rationales both he and his followers.. George II Oct 2015 #116
Really? Do you have a link to where we said he "always votes with the Democratic caucus"? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #117
I don't know why Warren voted against the amendment, all I know is that a Democratic... George II Oct 2015 #119
You would rather have him vote against our interests just to oppose Rand Paul? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #120
Apparently he opposed about three quarters of the Democrats in the Senate, too. George II Oct 2015 #121
Because of privacy rights - good! You didn't answer my question, why do you support the bill? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #122
Here are the other Dems who voted the same way madfloridian Oct 2015 #98
12 Democrats voted against it (27%), 32 Democrats voted for it (72%) George II Oct 2015 #118
The only people i would consider Spirochete Oct 2015 #151
And 50 Republicans voted for it. Which means he voted against 98% of the Republicans voting. RichVRichV Oct 2015 #171
So the majority of the Democratic caucus voted with the GOP. blackspade Oct 2015 #207
No it isn't, you missed my point - Sanders and his followers like to throw out the concept.... George II Oct 2015 #211
You never did say, George, why do you support the bill? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #212
Who specifically makes that arguement? blackspade Oct 2015 #227
"All I know is that he voted with a Republican yada yada" BeanMusical Oct 2015 #131
Not a just a "republican yada yada", but a republican who may be running against Hillary Clinton.... George II Oct 2015 #210
And a Democratic woman who will hopefully be Bernie's VP! beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #214
Yes, he should but he's not. That's very intriguing. BeanMusical Oct 2015 #215
Isn't it? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #217
Great, now I have Seinfeld's theme song as an earworm. BeanMusical Oct 2015 #221
Quick, listen to this George: beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #222
Thanks, far better earworm. BeanMusical Oct 2015 #224
Who's obsessed with Paul? I just find it very disappointing that a person who is running.... George II Oct 2015 #216
You're disappointed that Senators Sanders and Warren are concerned with privacy rights? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #218
Huh? George II Oct 2015 #219
If you fault Bernie because he "stood" with a Republican you have to fault Hillary for doing it too. beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #220
Don't you love it when they leave crucial information OUT BuelahWitch Oct 2015 #153
It's the only way to make the memes work. beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #159
Please explain why you think the vote was wrong. TheKentuckian Oct 2015 #113
So you are saying Bill and Hillary became DLCers to gain something for themselves? Autumn Oct 2015 #46
I didn't say anything like that. Sanders isn't a "politician", he's an opportunist. George II Oct 2015 #50
In what way is he an "opportunist"? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #59
ALL politicians are opportunists. Volaris Oct 2015 #72
George words do have meaning even if you don't want them to. Autumn Oct 2015 #75
Words mean whatever some Hillary supporters want them to mean: beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #83
I'm actually still chuckling at "Third Way Progressives" riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #92
Me too! But I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole. beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #94
Oh me neither. riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #99
It's good for amusement but little else. beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #101
Pretty soon it will be Bernie hates Obama! riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #105
They've been using that talking point for months, it's part of the 'Bernie is a racist' meme. beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #106
That pathetic attempt at a meme hifiguy Oct 2015 #213
Funny isn't it. My favorite all time poster was the one complaining about rec circles Autumn Oct 2015 #110
You mean Big Rec™ ? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #111
I had no clue he had been trade marked LOL Autumn Oct 2015 #112
That was courtesy of Capt. Obvious! beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #114
That depends on what the definition of 'IS' is. n/t Utopian Leftist Oct 2015 #204
What? Are you really asking if Bill Clinton is in the primaries? rhett o rick Oct 2015 #190
Thanks mad. No matter which candidate one supports, your OPs are always 1st rate riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #5
Just saying is all portlander23 Oct 2015 #6
Good post. Their attacks on the social safety nets is to me a dangerous thing. madfloridian Oct 2015 #8
Great post. Very informative. Thank you. liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #173
Yep. That's when the Democratic party started abandoning what was traditionally liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #9
Yes, they "switched loyalties." madfloridian Oct 2015 #15
The New Democrats were very apparent with a new 1998 law to privatize most of the U.S. DhhD Oct 2015 #95
Ah, thanks for that link. madfloridian Oct 2015 #97
"traditionally Democratic values" YoungDemCA Oct 2015 #195
And Third Way site has the info you need about TPP.... madfloridian Oct 2015 #10
Oh Goodie! To think that once again, truedelphi Oct 2015 #44
AND that new trade policy is going through no matter what. madfloridian Oct 2015 #161
K&R CharlotteVale Oct 2015 #12
Is there any lasting, positive testimony of Thirdwayer's contributions to society? Baitball Blogger Oct 2015 #16
They have had plenty of time to prove their way works and have failed. liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #17
Obviously, there are people who don't realize that fact. Baitball Blogger Oct 2015 #26
K&R FloriTexan Oct 2015 #18
..... madfloridian Oct 2015 #19
Here is one from me. moabfan Oct 2015 #48
Before Clinton, Democrats couldn't gain the WH for 20+ years. JaneyVee Oct 2015 #25
Are you saying that artislife Oct 2015 #29
I think the choice to speak in "years" rather than "terms" is very telling HereSince1628 Oct 2015 #36
He only got in via a third party spoiler by the name moabfan Oct 2015 #53
That's a right wing myth. All evidence points to the contrary. wyldwolf Oct 2015 #78
What I've learned on DU is that some people would rather support gadfly, losing candidates YoungDemCA Oct 2015 #196
Um, it was 16 years between Carter and Clinton.... blackspade Oct 2015 #208
Excellent, thoughtful OP on the FACTS of this reprehensible Think Tank the represents the interests sabrina 1 Oct 2015 #30
"avoid economic populism at all costs" DirkGently Oct 2015 #31
Yeah, but she did once march down there and she told them, cut it out, guys! TwilightGardener Oct 2015 #33
we have yet to see the 401(k) bubble burst but it will. liberal_at_heart Oct 2015 #34
One day shenmue Oct 2015 #38
"shadowy libertarian accusations"???? madfloridian Oct 2015 #45
It's just weird.... haikugal Oct 2015 #142
Can't believe someone thinks I'm libertarian in any way. madfloridian Oct 2015 #143
Yeah.. haikugal Oct 2015 #145
I had already decided - no vote from me for any DLC, DINO, New Democrat Coalition, any politician djean111 Oct 2015 #43
The group's willingness to sacrifice Social Security and other social safety nets... madfloridian Oct 2015 #47
Shkreli Democrats MisterP Oct 2015 #51
Kicked and recommended to the Max! Enthusiast Oct 2015 #54
Thanks. I just wish that the supporters of the conservative democratic candidate would Doctor_J Oct 2015 #64
K & R, explains a lot & makes perfect sense, it's all part of the oligarchy stranglehold mother earth Oct 2015 #65
No more Turd Way! Dont call me Shirley Oct 2015 #82
Third Way? No way? Corporatists davemac Oct 2015 #86
K & R azmom Oct 2015 #87
Neolibs of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your principles! Tierra_y_Libertad Oct 2015 #89
I saw folks trying to re-write history on DU today - TBF Oct 2015 #93
Thanks MadFloridian... Long But Concise & Clear! All I Have ChiciB1 Oct 2015 #100
More from Guardian 2005 Third Way Away Day madfloridian Oct 2015 #104
Others in 2005 were against Hillary Clinton being in the Senate. Blair's emails were known then. DhhD Oct 2015 #184
K & R historylovr Oct 2015 #108
Follow the money ;) Babel_17 Oct 2015 #109
HRC Is A Pawn Of the Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks That Pay For Her Campaign cantbeserious Oct 2015 #127
Kick and R BeanMusical Oct 2015 #129
'Bill' Clinton bigtree Oct 2015 #133
Except of course HRC actually was a DLC member riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #140
that tells me very little about her positions and record bigtree Oct 2015 #144
The DLC has/had very public positions on the issues riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #146
I don't need google bigtree Oct 2015 #181
No, it's misleading to try to separate Hillary from the DLC. DirkGently Oct 2015 #198
I agree Dem2 Oct 2015 #168
I see this discussion as about The DLC and/or The Third Way's influence on the Democratic rhett o rick Oct 2015 #191
more progressive than thou politics? bigtree Oct 2015 #225
Why don't you turn your questions into statements? nm rhett o rick Oct 2015 #228
Nice research Dem2 Oct 2015 #166
Also linked to Social Democracy via Anthony Giddens it seems: ucrdem Oct 2015 #167
If you like the third way you'll just love Hillary's presidency. Bernblu Oct 2015 #169
The legendary Tony Benn used to keep a tea mug in his office that read: forest444 Oct 2015 #185
great post Locrian Oct 2015 #193
K & R AzDar Oct 2015 #197
Thank you emsimon33 Oct 2015 #199
No more Clinton. SoapBox Oct 2015 #200
A kinder, gentler republiconism noiretextatique Oct 2015 #201
What works for CONS (I.E. whatever they can get away with) Utopian Leftist Oct 2015 #203
The essence of Third Way hifiguy Oct 2015 #209
How the Democratic Party Lost its Soul antigop Oct 2015 #223
After NAFTA 13 million new jobs were created, industrial grew 3x fasrer then the 2 previous decades BlueStateLib Oct 2015 #226
Now they say goal should be to have businesses hire all around the world. madfloridian Oct 2015 #229
Democrats were tired of losing the Presidency Recursion Oct 2015 #230
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