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rug

(82,333 posts)
Thu Mar 24, 2016, 07:40 AM Mar 2016

Review: "God Is No Thing" by Rupert Shortt – an excellent response to New Atheism [View all]

Some high-profile atheists insist on arguing against propositions that no serious Christian writer would endorse. This is a spirited corrective, covering the origins of the universe to the use of the Bible.

Rowan Williams
Thursday 24 March 2016 03.30 EDT

In one of his letters, CS Lewis repeats the story of an earnest atheistical school teacher instructing her young charges that all forms of animal life derived from the higher apes, under the impression that she was teaching them Darwinism. The anecdote is probably too good to be true, but it is a reminder that in any decently reasonable argument it helps to know what exactly it is that is being attacked or defended. Anyone writing off Darwinism on the grounds that the unfortunate teacher’s nonsense was what Darwinists “really” believed would not even begin to engage with Darwin’s views; there has to be some genuine attention to what is being said and to what it is like to hold it to be true – not what it feels like (though that may help) but how it “works”, what connections it sets up, what new twists it may give to familiar vocabulary, what new words and patterns of concepts it actually generates.

And this is what Rupert Shortt demands for Christian theology. He is not the first to note with exasperation that some high-profile atheists insist on arguing against propositions that no serious Christian writer would endorse. But he has provided in this brief book one of the most concise and sophisticated of recent protests against this tendency. He patiently explains, for example, what’s wrong with at least one argument still advanced as a clincher by anti-religious polemicists. Everything must have a cause and the cause of everything must be God: so the atheist paraphrases the religious case. But, the atheist continues, if everything has a cause, so must God. Argument over: the idea of God cannot function so as to avoid an infinite regress, so the religious case falls to the ground.

But Shortt points out that, whether or not you accept the argument in anything like this form (and he notes that recent analytical philosophers of religion have found some plausible ways of restating it), the secular advocate has misunderstood a basic point. Whatever can be said of God, God cannot by definition be another item in any series, another “thing” (hence the book’s title). The claim made by religious philosophers of a certain kind is not that God can be invoked to plug a gap, but that there must be some fundamental agency or energy which cannot be thought of as conditioned by anything outside itself, if we are to make sense of a universe of interactive patterns of energy being exchanged. Without such a fundamental concept, we are left with energy somehow bootstrapping itself into being.

This latter may be an arguable position but it is not self-evidently the only or the best mode of talking about the origins of the universe out of “nothing”. And Shortt is rightly merciless towards those who wriggle out of difficulties by slipping disguised constants into the “nothingness” out of which the universe comes – primitive electrical charges, quantum fields, timeless laws or whatever. He quotes the British scholar Denys Turner to good effect on the fact that “nothing” ought to mean what it says – “no process … no random fluctuations … no explanatory law of emergence”. The problem of origins cannot be defined out of existence, and the highly complex notion of creation by an act that (unlike finite agency) is not triggered or conditioned needs to be argued with in its own terms, not reduced to the mythical picture of a Very Large Person doing something a bit like what we normally do, only bigger.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/mar/24/god-no-thing-rupert-shortt-review-response-new-atheism

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Help. Could some one give a synopsis of this piece? I tried to understand ladjf Mar 2016 #1
In a nutshell, many of the current criticisms of Christianity are attacks on strawmen. rug Mar 2016 #2
Thanks for the briefing. nt ladjf Mar 2016 #3
The end of the article is... dubious. DetlefK Mar 2016 #4
Everything is dubious. rug Mar 2016 #8
"The claim made by religious philosophers of a certain kind..." DetlefK Mar 2016 #5
Atheism = Narcissistic Nihilism Bohunk68 Mar 2016 #6
You just made the mistake the article warned about. DetlefK Mar 2016 #13
According to you. Bohunk68 Mar 2016 #17
And what is it according to YOU? DetlefK Mar 2016 #23
Religion = Ego-driven Superstition AlbertCat Mar 2016 #61
Not excellent! Cartoonist Mar 2016 #7
Sigh . . . . rug Mar 2016 #9
Who's doing that? Cartoonist Mar 2016 #11
No one. Because it can't be done. rug Mar 2016 #14
True Major Nikon Mar 2016 #44
I don't think the point of Christianity has much to do with evidence. struggle4progress Mar 2016 #46
Strange then the adherents spend so much time with it Major Nikon Mar 2016 #47
I've never heard questions of "evidence" discussed in any church I ever attended struggle4progress Mar 2016 #58
I'm not saying it's questioned Major Nikon Mar 2016 #59
ultimately it simply comes down to faith. rug Mar 2016 #49
No, ultimately it simply comes down to evidence Major Nikon Mar 2016 #50
A) Evidence is inadequate. rug Mar 2016 #51
You have it exactly backwards Major Nikon Mar 2016 #52
And you confuse atheist with nontheist. rug Mar 2016 #53
I'm pretty sure you're the one confused Major Nikon Mar 2016 #54
Sorry, ed, I don't want to debate prefixes with you tonight. rug Mar 2016 #55
And yet you are the one who brought up semantics Major Nikon Mar 2016 #56
Sure, as soon as you can design one to validate any aspect of the ineffable whatthehey Mar 2016 #12
Validation is the same argument as the evidence argument. rug Mar 2016 #15
So a yes or no question whatthehey Mar 2016 #20
DON'T. You are opening a can of worms here. DetlefK Mar 2016 #21
Yes. rug Mar 2016 #31
"Described" as ineffable? DetlefK Mar 2016 #18
Precisely, the disciples witnessed the person of Jesus. rug Mar 2016 #22
Are you saying that it's okay to believe in a False God and/or to not believe in the real God? DetlefK Mar 2016 #25
No. I am saying that it is not only okay to believe in a god(s) but that it is reasonable to do so. rug Mar 2016 #28
I don't get it. Why is it reasonable to believe in God? DetlefK Mar 2016 #42
That's a thoughtful post. rug Mar 2016 #43
Post removed Post removed Mar 2016 #45
You sound jealous, scottie. rug Mar 2016 #48
But then you need an entirely new definition of existence. DetlefK Mar 2016 #62
It's more that an additional definition of existence is required, not a new one. rug Mar 2016 #63
The evidence is 4th or 5th hand at best Major Nikon Mar 2016 #57
Start with the human brain, ed. rug Mar 2016 #32
Oh, oh, oh! I got another one: DetlefK Mar 2016 #10
Ok, Horshack. Good point but I'll leave it there for other comments. rug Mar 2016 #16
Any comment on my first point in this post? DetlefK Mar 2016 #19
As to that, I do. rug Mar 2016 #26
One final comment on that. DetlefK Mar 2016 #34
This article is a neverending treasure-trove of hypocrisy: DetlefK Mar 2016 #24
This sentence edhopper Mar 2016 #27
Techically, it's a nihil ex nihilo argument. rug Mar 2016 #30
nothing has different meanings in philosophy edhopper Mar 2016 #33
Time and space. rug Mar 2016 #39
god is heaven05 Mar 2016 #29
Williams ought to specify how you go from muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #35
Nobody cares about Christian writers/apologists... MellowDem Mar 2016 #36
No, they jst debate them. rug Mar 2016 #40
They debate other populizers of Christianity... MellowDem Mar 2016 #41
New Atheists are the Clinton campaign of unbelief: they're only vaguely aware that one Wiki MisterP Mar 2016 #37
I haven't the faintest idea what you're saying muriel_volestrangler Mar 2016 #38
What is the summary of that book? Albertoo Mar 2016 #60
Question for Mr. Shortt. Htom Sirveaux Mar 2016 #64
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