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Israel/Palestine

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shira

(30,109 posts)
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 08:22 AM Feb 2012

Surplus Jews [View all]

We Jews permit ourselves degrees of intolerance towards each other that we would never exhibit toward others outside our community. The settings are numerous – theology, Halacha, denominations, politics and more. But nowhere are the vehemence and the inability to actually listen to those with whom we disagree more pronounced than with regard to the State of Israel.

The great irony of our age is that arguments about how to safeguard the Jewish state are a significant part of what now threatens to destroy any semblance of unity among the Jewish people. It is therefore helpful to have periodic reminders of just how much is at stake in the survival and flourishing of this state.

This week affords just that opportunity, for we are just days shy of the 70th anniversary of the sinking of the SS Struma. Few people today remember the Struma or its story; the young among us cannot even imagine the Jewish existential condition that it reflected, a condition that the state has, thankfully, completely eradicated.

The story begins in 1941, when it was clear to many Eastern European Jews that they were destined for a horrific end. In Romania, several Zionist organizations, Betar among them, commissioned a Bulgarian ship to transport almost 800 Jewish passengers to Palestine – the Struma.

<snip>

It is simply impossible for today’s Jews to find themselves in a world in which no one wants them or will have them. That, perhaps most fundamentally, is the dimension of Jewish life that Israel has changed, hopefully forever. Jews may be all sorts of things, but we are no longer “surplus.”

http://danielgordis.org/2012/02/18/surplus-jews/

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Surplus Jews [View all] shira Feb 2012 OP
When people question the right of Israel to COLGATE4 Feb 2012 #1
I don't think I've ever seen anyone on this board arguing against Israel's "right to exist". Crunchy Frog Feb 2012 #2
Because you haven't seen it, it must not exist? Behind the Aegis Feb 2012 #3
Makes me want to go out and buy more ammo NT holdencaufield Feb 2012 #4
Also plastic buckets and batteries for your flashlights, those are very important shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #20
Don't come bangin'... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #21
More guns, more amo resulting in more deaths........n/t kayecy Jun 2012 #22
I can think of several specific examples... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #23
Yeah, well a lot of people in Israel seem to think otherwise........ kayecy Jun 2012 #26
You misspelled Goy holdencaufield Jun 2012 #31
You think a principal belief of judaism is a joke?........Sick I call it......n/t kayecy Jun 2012 #32
What you are describing is NOT a principal belief of judaism. Ken Burch Jun 2012 #83
The G.O.I is an acronym for Government of Israel azurnoir Jun 2012 #164
So... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #34
I prefer to use my words........ kayecy Jun 2012 #35
No, I do not think that is self-evident holdencaufield Jun 2012 #36
You didn't answer my question............. kayecy Jun 2012 #38
What right? Bradlad Jun 2012 #40
As much right as any other ethnic group living in an area, territory or region...... kayecy Jun 2012 #42
Are you under the impression... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #43
What proportion of Zionist immigrants had relatives in Palestine?....... kayecy Jun 2012 #45
What proportion? Bradlad Jun 2012 #47
What right, indeed. Bradlad Jun 2012 #46
That was exactly what I was trying to do...... kayecy Jun 2012 #50
Good try. Bradlad Jun 2012 #52
Were Palestinian rights to self-determination less than other peoples?.................. kayecy Jun 2012 #53
Do you perchance live in a border state? holdencaufield Jun 2012 #56
Unfortunately it is not so easy to find a similar situation........ kayecy Jun 2012 #57
Progressive? holdencaufield Jun 2012 #58
Can I take it that you have now withdrawn your implied slur on my character? kayecy Jun 2012 #59
Kayecy, the Jews/Zionists conducted their negotiations and diplomacy w/ both the Turks and Brits... shira Jun 2012 #61
Shira...Please leave Bradlad and Holdencaufield to answer for themselves on this thread........n/t kayecy Jun 2012 #64
The Ottomans and the British had no authority to negotiate Ken Burch Jun 2012 #167
They were the only realistic options for Jews to negotiate with... shira Jun 2012 #168
well./.. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #104
Of course. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #103
Thanks for posting that part of the ToS azurnoir Feb 2012 #6
It isn't expressly forbidden because no one calls for it. aranthus Feb 2012 #7
ah so I'll take your word for it in DUs 11 year history azurnoir Feb 2012 #8
I'm not asking you to take my word for it. aranthus Feb 2012 #9
indeed I must ask just what is your beef here seems azurnoir Feb 2012 #10
Quoi? aranthus Feb 2012 #11
Really that's interesting azurnoir Feb 2012 #12
I was referring to your post #10. n/t aranthus Feb 2012 #13
It's forbidden by implication to advocate the destruction of the US.. LeftishBrit Feb 2012 #14
What if one advocates that it might be a good thing Crunchy Frog Feb 2012 #16
Come on, what do you think the BDS movement is all about? shira Feb 2012 #5
Comparing Israelis to Nazis? Crunchy Frog Feb 2012 #15
My buddies are radical settlers? shira Feb 2012 #17
Israel did recognize and accept the citizenship and equal rights of their Arab population in 1948. Fozzledick Jun 2012 #25
Maybe true in 1948, but today the reality is different....... kayecy Jun 2012 #27
Give it up on the delegitimization and demonization... shira Jun 2012 #28
so all countries discriminate against minorities so that makes it ok for Israel too? got it azurnoir Jun 2012 #29
The point is Kayecy was wrong. Fozzie was right. n/t shira Jun 2012 #30
That's what reading CAMERA, does to you Shira............Get real! kayecy Jun 2012 #33
And that's what extreme anti-zionism does to you, Kayecy... shira Jun 2012 #37
And that is how extreme nationalism can blind anyone to reality........ kayecy Jun 2012 #39
Let's see who is blinded to reality.... shira Jun 2012 #41
Thank you for that admission Shira......... kayecy Jun 2012 #44
But Fozzie is still right. Arabs are citizens w/ equal rights in Israel.... shira Jun 2012 #48
Not true Shira........ kayecy Jun 2012 #49
When you say Arab Israelis did not have equal rights in 1948... shira Jun 2012 #51
Ah, the land that might have been!............. kayecy Jun 2012 #54
"unfortunately I did not rule the world at that time..." holdencaufield Jun 2012 #55
So Kayecy, you believe where there's discrimination there are no equal rights? Does that apply... shira Jun 2012 #60
Kayecy, since you don't believe Israel has any right to exist... shira Jun 2012 #62
How can you possibly claim that it was a moral way to establish a new nation?.... kayecy Jun 2012 #63
As opposed to conquering it militarily? Way more progressive than that... shira Jun 2012 #65
Have your final say (as usual) and we'll end this futile discussion....... kayecy Jun 2012 #66
Now that this trainwreck of a thread is winding down . . Bradlad Jun 2012 #67
Like Shira, it appears you still have a colonial mindset ............. kayecy Jun 2012 #69
In your above ramblings- Bradlad Jun 2012 #70
On the contrary, Zionists most certainly do, and you have just proved my point............ kayecy Jun 2012 #71
And you have totally failed. Bradlad Jun 2012 #72
I do try to respond to all reasonable requests.............. kayecy Jun 2012 #73
The UDHR? That's rich. Bradlad Jun 2012 #74
You seem to have difficulty in interpreting basic principles........ kayecy Jun 2012 #75
Kayecy, you're trying to excuse Palestinians for the same evil that the rest of the world... shira Jun 2012 #76
You are beginning to see who are the innocents in this conflict......... kayecy Jun 2012 #77
You are not making sense. Bradlad Jun 2012 #78
OMG. Are you seriously saying Palestinians could have just up and moved somewhere else?? Violet_Crumble Jun 2012 #80
What you described actually did happen with respect to Jews oberliner Jun 2012 #84
And because of that it shouldn't be suggested for it to be done to any other people... Violet_Crumble Jun 2012 #101
Interesting comment. Bradlad Jun 2012 #86
It's pretty pointless trying to deny what you said. It's right there in yr post... Violet_Crumble Jun 2012 #100
Bradlad........Let me try and explain why you are mistaken....... kayecy Jun 2012 #81
You have absolutely no understanding of the history of the region oberliner Jun 2012 #85
You did not answer. Bradlad Jun 2012 #87
I'm sorry, I thought I had spelt it out for you......... kayecy Jun 2012 #88
Kayecy, the ethical argument as to why Jews should've been allowed in... shira Jun 2012 #90
your argument... Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #109
Thanks for trying to make it clearer. Bradlad Jun 2012 #110
A zionist immigrant invasion against poor, defenseless people? shira Jun 2012 #68
you keep referring to the indigenous Arabs as being "poor and helpless." Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #105
Shaktimaan - Thank you for trying to make it clear to Bradman..... kayecy Jun 2012 #112
ok Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #113
Interesting.....Have I misunderstood the UDHR?......... kayecy Jun 2012 #115
you somewhat misunderstand it, yes. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #116
UDHR Article 30 seems to directly contradict you................ kayecy Jun 2012 #118
Wow! Bradlad Jun 2012 #120
are you serious? Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #125
I always find these multilayer attacks on posters usually ProPalestinian interesting azurnoir Jun 2012 #126
huh? Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #128
and chest beating a self declared victory too such class azurnoir Jun 2012 #154
Your “collaboration” do not intend to declare UDI, or seize sovereign control of Fort Green..... kayecy Jun 2012 #138
Wow. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #140
second post about ethics Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #142
Could I ask you again to continue your ‘collaboration" analogy?..... kayecy Jun 2012 #149
How could Palestinians have a right to reject immigration < 1948 when the Brits... shira Jun 2012 #151
Let's stop for a minute here. Bradlad Jun 2012 #152
Sure. I actually had not finished my argument yet. Just been busy. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #172
Your post can best me summarized under three headings........ kayecy Jun 2012 #174
No, I don't accept that. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #175
Can I suggest you have the cart before the horse?..... kayecy Jun 2012 #176
Kayecy, you're still blaming the Jews for negotiating with the only established powers of that time shira Jun 2012 #177
This does not have to be complicated. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #178
Sorry, that is not how it will have to work....... kayecy Jun 2012 #180
ok Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #181
I think this answers your question...... kayecy Jun 2012 #183
sigh Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #184
What exactly was the early Zionist’s ultimate goal? ...... kayecy Jun 2012 #185
finally. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #186
Why are you so reluctant to answer my simple question?......... kayecy Jun 2012 #187
cheap insults are the mark of the desperate. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #188
Thank you for your 1,500 word response!.... kayecy Jun 2012 #191
OK Shaktimaan Jul 2012 #192
one last thing Shaktimaan Jul 2012 #193
It occurs to me... Shaktimaan Jul 2012 #194
I will attempt to answer all three of your posts at one go........ kayecy Jul 2012 #195
I can simplify this. Shaktimaan Jul 2012 #196
Thank you for your 1,400 word simplification!.... kayecy Jul 2012 #197
this is absurd Shaktimaan Jul 2012 #198
Can we get this equality of rights thing clear?......... kayecy Jul 2012 #199
sure. Shaktimaan Jul 2012 #200
Don't forget... Shaktimaan Jul 2012 #201
Let us by all means stick to those issues ........... kayecy Jul 2012 #202
sorry for the delay. Shaktimaan Jul 2012 #203
Why were only Jewish political rights to be protected? ......... kayecy Jul 2012 #204
interesting. Shaktimaan Jul 2012 #205
I wonder why you chose to make such an misleading statement?... kayecy Jul 2012 #206
Let's save some time Bradlad Jul 2012 #207
On ethics Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #189
lastly, don't forget about fort greene Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #190
Additionally, you may find this interesting. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #182
additional.... Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #173
you misunderstand. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #179
This message was self-deleted by its author Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #143
casualties Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #117
Unable to find pre-independence casualies in your references......... kayecy Jun 2012 #119
huh? Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #124
a clarification Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #129
Got it thank you...I wonder which figure is correct...Approx 2,000 or 1,303....n/t kayecy Jun 2012 #131
Taking a slightly different tack . . Bradlad Jun 2012 #114
What language did the "indigenous" Palestinmian Jews speak in normal everyday conversation azurnoir Jun 2012 #89
Most likely Arabic. You think the Jews of Palestine were considered Arabs? shira Jun 2012 #92
neither Meir or Ben-Gurion were born in Ottoman Palestine it was Russia and Poland azurnoir Jun 2012 #93
Looks like you need to make another apology Shira!..............n/t kayecy Jun 2012 #94
Yep, my bad. Ben Gurion moved there in 1906.... shira Jun 2012 #95
He was a Polish Jew, at least until the advent of the modern state of Israel azurnoir Jun 2012 #96
You realize UNRWA defines a Palestinian as someone who moved there... shira Jun 2012 #97
As of May 14 1948 they all became Israeli didn't they? azurnoir Jun 2012 #98
Nice dodge. shira Jun 2012 #99
Wrong. UNRWA doesn't define who's a Palestinian. It defines who's a refugee... Violet_Crumble Jun 2012 #102
Most likely Ladino holdencaufield Jun 2012 #130
Thanks I was wondering when somone would think of something anything azurnoir Jun 2012 #132
A lot of time and energy has been spent on this group... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #133
ah but really not much time has been spent on that what has been said azurnoir Jun 2012 #134
Maybe because... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #135
Go Back and look at my comment the time frame I was referring to was azurnoir Jun 2012 #136
The Jewish Diaspora... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #137
Just to bring a little reality in this discussion........ kayecy Jun 2012 #139
Rabbi Moses ben Nahman Girondi holdencaufield Jun 2012 #141
"...they must have been using a common language whatever their ancestery..." holdencaufield Jun 2012 #144
Thank you for those inteeresting details, but..... kayecy Jun 2012 #145
If you don't deny... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #146
I don't really want to go over the same argument again,....... kayecy Jun 2012 #147
It's a smart man... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #148
You didn't answer the question, Kayecy, anywhere... shira Jun 2012 #150
so what you are asking us to believe here is that Jews in Palestine prior to the 3rd aliyah azurnoir Jun 2012 #153
Beleive what you choose to believe... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #155
As an American I hardly find people speaking multiple languages "fantastical' or mythical azurnoir Jun 2012 #156
Thank you for teaching me Jewish History holdencaufield Jun 2012 #157
so I take it you can not really refute this can you oh you can go on and on about azurnoir Jun 2012 #158
Some things you might have missed... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #159
geez the assuming continues lol azurnoir Jun 2012 #160
Time to hang up your argument... holdencaufield Jun 2012 #161
wrong about what that the Jews of Palestine prior to the very late 19th century were ethnically Arab azurnoir Jun 2012 #162
BDST Fozzledick Jun 2012 #24
French Jews say Lyon assault latest in series of anti-Semitic incidents shira Jun 2012 #18
France: Three Jews Beaten With Hammers, Iron Bars by Islamic Youths shira Jun 2012 #19
22 yrar-old Eritrean subject to knife attack by five Israelis.................. kayecy Jun 2012 #79
And no one should end up at the mercy of a world where no one wants them, agreed. Ken Burch Jun 2012 #82
Israel was achieved without oppressing other people. Their enemies shouldn't have... shira Jun 2012 #91
so you seem to be advocating for Barak's noise to be accepted sight unseen? azurnoir Jun 2012 #106
Most likely similar to the withdrawal noise from 2 years ago... shira Jun 2012 #107
so you wish for Abbas to accept new 'temporary' borders? azurnoir Jun 2012 #108
Yeah, an end to occupation is an end to occupation. Negotiate further for more, stop stalling... shira Jun 2012 #111
Stalling nope however a viable Palestinian state is the desired end to the occupation azurnoir Jun 2012 #121
Team Palestine, especially here @ DU, has constantly called for Israel to end the occupation... shira Jun 2012 #122
Not for or against an opinion could only be given after what Israel is offering is seen azurnoir Jun 2012 #123
What's being offered? A unilateral withdrawal. There are no demands of the Palestinians. n/t shira Jun 2012 #127
first off has Israel's PM backed this up has he gone before the public and this what we're going to azurnoir Jun 2012 #163
There's no such thing as "Team Palestine" Ken Burch Jun 2012 #166
There's no way he could declare statehood with 60% Ken Burch Jun 2012 #165
How do you know it would be non-contiguous? And even if it were... shira Jun 2012 #169
Well, that's patently untrue. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #171
No one is suggesting that the Palestinians accept any kind of blind deal. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #170
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