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Bradlad

(206 posts)
71. I first thought of . .
Tue Aug 14, 2012, 07:51 PM
Aug 2012

I first thought of writing a reply to each of your paragraphs. Then I realized that the problem here is that we each have very different views of human nature and of the reality of this conflict. These differences are probably insurmountable logically. So let me just try to express how disconnected from reality your views seem to me.

Here are some facts that I factor in to the equation because I believe they are the essential facts that any state (or person) trying to avoid conflict while protecting their loved ones (or citizens) would have to consider:

Since 1947 the Palestinians (and the Arabs generally) have reacted with violence to every single overture for peace offered by Israel (or anyone else like the UN) to settle the conflict without violence,

Since 1947, Palestinians holding leadership positions have consistently claimed in their speeches and their political charters that they would never ever accept a Jewish state in the ME under any conditions,

To drive the nail in further, since 1947 no Palestinians holding leadership positions have ever come forward on their own with a sincere and plausible plan of conditions they would accept for peaceful coexistence with Israel,

Since 1947 Palestinians civilians have generally confirmed in polls and interviews, notably with religious officials, their desire to die, and for their children to die - in violent conflict to destroy the state of Israel rather than accept any peaceful coexistence with Israel.

But still, your response is (paraphrasing) certainly this time if Israel would just withdraw from the WB (baring its throat to thousands of Hamas Jihadist rockets that would need only 60 seconds or so to land after being fired), certainly then the Palestinians will realize that they have something to lose that will cause them to throw away what has driven their messianic quest to destroy Israel for three generations now.

I don't mean this as an insult at all because I am sure I am capable of harboring delusions too if I believe strongly enough about something - but I can only wonder at the power of the beliefs that must exist in your mind on this topic to allow you to reach this conclusion.

I would be encouraged if you could show me just once in the last 65 years when any respected Palestinian leader - or any Arab leader for that matter - had actually made a believable and sincere move toward peace. Don't you think that if any significant number of Palestinians actually preferred peace with Israel over war to end Israel - that some leader would have had the guts to present his reasonable conditions for achieving it?

That's a real question (not rhetorical) that seems necessary to me as a minimal precondition for Israel being willing to ever give up anything again to the Palestinians. Every singly time Israel has tried to return land for peace - the land was pocketed and the peace overture laughed at. Even Sadat bragged that Israel gave up a land mass three times the size of Israel for a piece of paper.

But you say just one more time will do the trick. I think Israel now realizes it has made a big mistake in following the leftist ideology that was stronger in Israel in the past. Fortunately it seems Israelis are starting to get the picture. It pretty much took the rising strength of the anti-Israel Muslim revanchists fueled by oil income and the West's cowardly appeasement of them for this to happen. But I think the majority of Israelis now see that there's really nothing they can do to achieve peace except deal a decisive defeat to those who attack Israel or to those who seriously threaten Israel's existence. I only hope they haven't waited too long to figure this out.

I don't know if you are Jewish or not - buy I have met Jews online who have admitted that if Israel is destroyed because of its attempts to make peace against all sensible evidence that peace is even possible - that they'd rather see that happen than see Israel survive by waging war. Perhaps this is your view and that would explain your conclusion. But other than that I can't imagine any sensible person who would expect Israel to put itself in that position of vulnerability in the hopes that the Palestinians who have never changed one inch toward accommodating Israel as a peaceful neighbor - are now going to reverse the last six decades of their consistent and violent racist rejectionism - out of some sense that they'd have something material to gain from it.

Sorry to be so negative about your proposal but maybe you can explain for me just where your conclusion comes from. As a non-Jew I'd really like to understand. Maybe I'm the one who's failing to see the reality here.

Saudi Arabia wants to "cozy up" to Israel? oberliner Aug 2012 #1
He's the "managing editor of Foreign Affairs", I wouldn't dismiss anything he says out of hand. nt bemildred Aug 2012 #2
Because that worked so well in Gaza. Fozzledick Aug 2012 #3
another one...geographically and historically challenged.. pelsar Aug 2012 #4
And if rockets rain down on the Israeli cities,no big deal. Swede Aug 2012 #5
ah but if rockets rain down from the WB sabbat hunter Aug 2012 #6
what good what that do us? pelsar Aug 2012 #7
8/1/2012 : Israeli tanks cross Gaza border after detecting missile azurnoir Aug 2012 #8
As long as you occupy them... shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #9
I am sure Missycim Aug 2012 #10
as a matter of fact, i would be shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #19
So do you think Israel Missycim Aug 2012 #20
If they withdraw from the West Bank, yes shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #21
So for Israel to be allowed to defend Missycim Aug 2012 #22
so what then if you believe Israel so has to stay in the WB? azurnoir Aug 2012 #31
I dont think either situation Missycim Aug 2012 #32
Ah, the unshakeable certainty of faith... shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #34
You don't see violence from Palestinians in the WB b/c you choose not to see it... shira Aug 2012 #86
Really, thats the best you can do? shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #88
Do many home invasions and intended robberies involve decapitating a three-month old baby? oberliner Aug 2012 #91
Probably not... shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #95
I am under no delusions-IMO Israel has no intention of giving up one sq cm. of the West Bank azurnoir Aug 2012 #35
Arab Peace Initiative. Fantastic Anarchist Aug 2012 #83
Not much of a peace initiative when it calls for 100% withdrawal from the WB and full... shira Aug 2012 #85
Some of the dictators who proposed that have been deposed oberliner Aug 2012 #94
I suppose some of us think that the Palestinians shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #33
what withdrawal?....up to where? pelsar Aug 2012 #23
You have a strangely myopic view. Bradlad Aug 2012 #11
So you're saying that the settlements are military defence installations? shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #14
You seem to favor some facts over others. Bradlad Aug 2012 #72
You don't seem to favour any facts at all... shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #81
Absolutely Agreed. nt Fantastic Anarchist Aug 2012 #82
Of course it's a big deal, but the WB isn't Gaza. aranthus Aug 2012 #12
Please explain . . Bradlad Aug 2012 #13
Hamas was already in charge of Gaza... shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #15
another version of raping history... pelsar Aug 2012 #16
I prefer to think of it as furthering your education... shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #18
then try not to rape history..... pelsar Aug 2012 #24
Don't forget Dahlan: bemildred Aug 2012 #25
I said that they were in control... shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #36
"...a western backed Fatah coup" shira Aug 2012 #37
We seem to have wandered some distance from my original point... shaayecanaan Aug 2012 #38
you don't like timelines....nor the "locals" pelsar Aug 2012 #39
I don't know what that has to do with my question. Bradlad Aug 2012 #46
I will give it a shot. aranthus Aug 2012 #26
Not bad. bemildred Aug 2012 #27
wow...where have you been? pelsar Aug 2012 #41
If you think what you are doing now is risk-free, by all means continue. nt bemildred Aug 2012 #44
i was just bringing your post back to reality... pelsar Aug 2012 #48
Yap yap yap yap ... bemildred Aug 2012 #49
I'm glad you're willing to risk... holdencaufield Aug 2012 #42
It's not me that's risking Jewish lives. nt bemildred Aug 2012 #43
Do you think moving half-a-milllion Jews into the midst of a couple million hostile Arabs, bemildred Aug 2012 #45
I appreciate your attempt. Bradlad Aug 2012 #47
Thanks for your response. aranthus Aug 2012 #67
I first thought of . . Bradlad Aug 2012 #71
Again, I think you have misunderstood me. aranthus Aug 2012 #73
Excellent reply. Thanks Bradlad Aug 2012 #80
Aside from . . Bradlad Aug 2012 #84
but thats not true "every effort".... pelsar Aug 2012 #17
I'm only interested in what the great majority of Israelis think. aranthus Aug 2012 #28
Poll: 64% of Israelis back continued settlement activity azurnoir Aug 2012 #30
lol no Pelsar the time has passed to "destroy the settlements" azurnoir Aug 2012 #29
you misunderstood.... i was making fun of the "lefts" mantras pelsar Aug 2012 #40
no either you misunderstand or are trying to avoid azurnoir Aug 2012 #50
since when do i avoid anything here?.... pelsar Aug 2012 #52
you seem to miss the part about about movement azurnoir Aug 2012 #56
the'll put up their own roadblocks like hamas pelsar Aug 2012 #58
and what will state look like as far as area goes? azurnoir Aug 2012 #59
Hamasnikim are Palestenians.... pelsar Aug 2012 #60
well azurnoir Aug 2012 #64
Why do you write "G-d" ? oberliner Aug 2012 #69
habit why it doesn't seem right the other way(s) azurnoir Aug 2012 #70
hamas are a point not to be ignored... pelsar Aug 2012 #74
Azurnoir, are you saying Israel can't offer the Clinton Initiatives or Olmert's offer anymore? n/t shira Aug 2012 #54
has Israel shown any inclination to do this? azurnoir Aug 2012 #55
Please stop moving the goalposts. You keep claiming that with settlement expansion.... shira Aug 2012 #61
I take it the real anwer is NO Israel has shown no inclination to do this azurnoir Aug 2012 #63
"The Gaza Experiment"? Scootaloo Aug 2012 #77
I don't think that Israel's going to give up an acre of the West Bank. no_hypocrisy Aug 2012 #51
israel wont be needing the water.... pelsar Aug 2012 #53
really now is it? which is cheaper desalination or simply pumping water? azurnoir Aug 2012 #57
cheaper than war..... pelsar Aug 2012 #62
again azurnoir Aug 2012 #65
and israel wants peace with its neighbors.... pelsar Aug 2012 #66
Israel wants quite a few things azurnoir Aug 2012 #68
a simple technical explanation.... pelsar Aug 2012 #75
lol except that these fabled desalination plants do not yet quite exist do they? azurnoir Aug 2012 #78
two are working and more are in the plans.... pelsar Aug 2012 #79
Desalination and the Israel-Palestine issue azurnoir Aug 2012 #87
why do you do that?...some kind of point system? pelsar Aug 2012 #89
oops is correct lol azurnoir Aug 2012 #90
well? pelsar Aug 2012 #92
omg already explained several posts back azurnoir Aug 2012 #93
try again.... pelsar Aug 2012 #96
what 'withdrawal' and from where? azurnoir Aug 2012 #97
the whole gaza experience.... pelsar Aug 2012 #98
seriously back 7 years really? azurnoir Aug 2012 #99
They should stop the illegal settlements and they need to get back to the negotiating table now /n still_one Aug 2012 #76
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