Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
4. In a world with static or declining energy demand this might be true
Wed Oct 9, 2013, 12:00 PM
Oct 2013

Last edited Wed Oct 9, 2013, 02:14 PM - Edit history (2)

i.e. "any power we get from wind, solar, hydro or geothermal is less co2 released into the atmosphere"

However in a world with rising energy demand the story is more complicated.

We can meet some energy demand by building renewable electrical sources instead of fossil fuels. We can also gain energy efficiency by substituting more-efficient electrical motors for combustion engines for example, or improve the efficiency of using fossil fuels for things like space and process heat.

But these two together will only reduce the amount of CO2 flowing into the atmosphere if the global sum of sum of renewable builds plus efficiency improvements stays ahead of the growing global energy demand.

For example, assume that energy demand grows by 2.2%, pa, which is the recent 30 year trailing average primary energy growth rate. Then assume we can supply 0.4% of it from low-carbon sources like renewables - also the trailing 30 year average growth rate of low carbon sources. Assume we get 0.8% as efficiency improvements - the 20-year trailing average of improvements in the energy intensity of global GDP (this actually requires us to double our current 0.8% rate of improvement that is already doing its job to lower energy consumption). 0.4 + 0.8 - 1.2. We need 2.2%, so we're still short by 1%.

There are only two ways to close that 1% gap: by using more high-carbon energy; or through demand destruction, which requires a restriction in economic activity. So far, the global choice has been to maintain economic activity by closing the demand gap with fossil fuels, because economic activity is seen as a higher priority than addressing climate risk.

to stay even at today’s CO2 emissions of 35 billion tonnes per year, we need to improve our year-over-year efficiency improvements by 50% and triple the growth rate of low-carbon energy rollout. In order to actually start reducing emissions we need to do even better than that – or accept a decline in economic growth, or even global economic stagnation.

It's a herculean task that the world may not be ready for yet, but as you point out, anything is better than nothing.

On edit: The big issue in all this is that for it to work we must somehow constrain economic growth, rather than taking advantage of renewable energy and efficiency improvements to get higher economic growth rates. That is, assuming it always takes some energy to get economic output - which seems more obvious to the ecologically aware than to mainstream economists...

As long as the world holds to the position that growth is a sovereign right of every economy, we are well and truly screwed. Who will (or even can) bell that cat?

Looks to me like madokie Oct 2013 #1
It doesn't have to be a problem for future generations... PamW Oct 2013 #2
Wonder why Japan didn't follow that path? kristopher Oct 2013 #10
Why didn't Japan build their own airliners instead of buying from Boeing / Airbus? PamW Oct 2013 #12
The question was why hasn't ANYONE pursued the IFR if it is so superior? kristopher Oct 2013 #13
The name is Pam!! PamW Oct 2013 #17
Nope kristopher Oct 2013 #18
WRONG! PamW Oct 2013 #19
I value the most effective means of reducing carbon emissions. kristopher Oct 2013 #20
WRONG, as per usual PamW Oct 2013 #21
No, Greg, you are wrong - again. kristopher Oct 2013 #22
WRONG!!! WRONG!!! WRONG!!! 100% WRONG!!! both the name and substance PamW Oct 2013 #33
This message was self-deleted by its author PamW Oct 2013 #3
In a world with static or declining energy demand this might be true GliderGuider Oct 2013 #4
Lets not get too carried away here madokie Oct 2013 #5
Agreed. I just wanted to get the idea out there, and this was as good a place as any. GliderGuider Oct 2013 #6
happy to be able to oblige madokie Oct 2013 #7
More of your hypothetical bullpucky kristopher Oct 2013 #8
I used 30 year averages to ensure that I wasn't mistaking noise for trend. GliderGuider Oct 2013 #9
No, you used 30 years to fudge the numbers kristopher Oct 2013 #11
Actually, I didn't. Here's the graphic proof of what I'm saying GliderGuider Oct 2013 #14
The picture has already changed. kristopher Oct 2013 #15
Not according to the data I have GliderGuider Oct 2013 #16
You're pointing your camera in the wrong direction kristopher Oct 2013 #23
At least you've stopped trying to beat us to death with Mark Z. Jacobsen... GliderGuider Oct 2013 #24
You stopped making the specific claims that Jacobson refuted. kristopher Oct 2013 #25
You can attribute whatever you wish. It's your belief system. GliderGuider Oct 2013 #26
Memo to sceptics of a low-carbon world – 'it's happening' kristopher Oct 2013 #27
What do Portugal's cars run on? What heats their homes? GliderGuider Oct 2013 #28
Tougher nuts to crack? kristopher Oct 2013 #29
I know that's the renewable dream, and that RMI are the head dreamers. GliderGuider Oct 2013 #30
It was abundantly clear you haven't got a clue... kristopher Oct 2013 #31
I call it "refining my understanding of the situation" GliderGuider Oct 2013 #32
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»The Viability of Germany’...»Reply #4