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happyslug

(14,779 posts)
6. So New York went from BELOW the national average in Murder, to the top, then down?
Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:09 PM
Dec 2012

Notice the peak year is 1990, Gun Control peaked in 1968 with the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968. With that act, the Murder rate went UP. As Congress weakened that act in the 1980s, it lead to a DROP in murder after 1990. The effect of any law is often 5-10 years later, thus the 1968 Act full affect started around 1975-1980, the full effect of the drop in Gun Control in the early 1980s, came if effect with the drop in murder rate after 1990.

Side note: It has been extremely hard to get a hand gun permit in New York State since the Passage of the Sullivan Act in 1912 (a product of the New York State Legislature). Similar restrictions on owning pistols have been on the books in New York State since about the same time period. The vast majority of weapons used in crimes in New York, before and after the passage of the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968 has been illegal under New York State Law, and after 1968, illegal under Federal Law.

Now, before I go into an argument that Gun Control had no effect, the Studies I have read all pointed out the raise and drop in the murder rate do NOT correlate with increase (or decrease) Gun Control laws, increase prison sentences (or decrease prison sentences) etc. There is one report that shows a slight connection with Abortion, but it appears to be more coincidence then a real connection (restrictions on Abortions staring in the 1980s did NOT seem to have an affect on the murder rate).

The two trends that seems to have affect is the migration of African Americans to northern urban centers starting in the 1920s and increase spending on Children and Youth starting in the 1960s. These trends are 15-20 years trends but seems to be the answer.

Migration of African Americans from the Rural South to Urban Northern Cities.

The vast majority of African Americans lived in the rural South prior to WWII, they started to immigrant north during WWI, and this accelerated during and after WWII (For example Mississippi was Majority African American in the late 1880s till the 1930s, then became majority white). These African American lived in and were the product of the American South. Historically the American South had the highest Murder rate in the Country. In fact if you remove the South AND African Americans from the Murder counts, US Murder rate is lower then Europe's.

African Americans of the 1880-1940 period were a product of this Southern tradition of violence. This culture was a product of who settled the South (former Herders from Scotland, England and Ireland) whose traditions were never to take an insult without a response, to response to any perceived act of "disrespect" with violence and to seek violence revenge if someone did that person "harm" (including slights and other interactions that most people laugh off). This culture of violence started with who settled the South, but made worse by the introduction of Slavery, which required instantaneous violence to prevent any widespread slave revolt.

The post Civil War era did NOT see a reduction in violence (even when firearms were outlawed). African American were both victims of this culture AND part of that culture and thus absorbed those norms, as norms within the African American Community. The African Americans who moved North, starting during WWI, brought with them this culture of violence.

While I am concentrating on African Americans, you also see this in Southern Whites who moved North. Southern Whites had two advantages over African Americans, first, most of the Southern Whiles did NOT come from the deep South (As did most of the African Americans), but the more marginal areas of the south (such as Appalachian). In these marginal areas the Southern culture of violence was not as deep and thus easier for these Southern Whiles to adopt Northern Standards. The Second reason is Southern Whites were better able to mix with people already in the Northern Cities and thus were quicker able to absorb Northern Traditions (i.e. you had better mixing of Appalachian Hillbillies, with other foreign immigrants AND other whites from the rural areas of the North then between any of these three groups with African Americans).

This is complicated for statistics were race based NOT where the person who did the crime come from, thus a lot of ex-Southerns acts of violence was called "violence by whites" (and thus diluted by white population from other areas of the US and from overseas) while African American violence were recorded as being done by African Americans. Thus African Americans were shown to be violent, but the similar Violence of Southern Whites was diluted by the larger northern white and foreign white immigrants and they much lower rates of violence.

Most African Americans moved north After WWII, but they were of the age (Generally over 30) when they are settled and having a family takes them out of social groups that interact other then for work. On the other hand, they children, also a product of the South AND a product of the African American Community that was still dominated by people from the South, took with them into life of the inner city, this Southern, don't back down, fight for respect tradition. Thus you saw the increase in Murder Rates in Northern Inner Cities starting in the late 1950s, and accelerating in the 1960s.

Now, people absorb the dominated culture they are raised in. In the North it is a much less violent culture then the Rural South. Thus as African Americans became more and more removed from the Rural South, they replaced rural south traditions with Northern Traditions (i.e. Laugh off slight insults, work with each other, respect is internal, not what others think of you, but what you think of yourself). Along with these Northern Traditions is a tradition of NOT fighting over minor issues (and a tendency to view everything as minor). Starting in the 1980s you had mostly third generation of African Americans in Northern Cities (i.e. it was their Great Grand Parents who moved north, not their parents or grandparents). The Southern Tradition of fighting over Respect and one's "Manhood" became something of a distant memory, something to talk with relatives about long dead ancestors. This overall change in African American Culture lead to a less violence inner city and with a less violent inner city, less murder.

Children and Youth Spending

The other major influence was the increase funding for Children And Youth Services as part of Lyndon Johnson's Great Society program. In many abusive situations, the children learn to be abusive, as they see their fathers beat up their mothers and get away with it. These boys (it is mostly Males who are violent, the girls learn the lesson of being "helpless" and thus something to be beat on) will absorb the norms they see in their lives. Above I mentioned how African Americans absorb the norms of the Rural South, in abusive situations, these children absorb the norms in their own home and learn violence is the way to go. These same children slowly grow up and become violent in school and other social groups, and tend to be the people who are violent in their 20s and are the role models for their own children (and the cycle continues),

The increase spending on Children And Youth (and the related development of Protection from Abuse law) permitted Governmental units to intervene is such situations and correct the errors. The Children, seeing that they family were being "Punished" (Punished in the child's eyes as they see themselves removed from their parents and put with "strangers&quot internalize that such violence is NOT good and make efforts to break the cycle, i.e. Males try NOT to abuse their wives/girlfriends and women learn it is NOT right to be a punching bag (I do a lot of PFA work and you be surprised how often you find an abusive husband/boyfriend with a submissive wife/girlfriend, they find each other). This change often takes generations to work its way out of the family (i.e. each generation gets better at NOT getting into the abuse cycle). A side affect of this is, each generation also learn Violence is NOT the answer to problems within. This is again compatible with the murder rate increase in the 1960s (as the Children and Youth became more aggressive) but the effect would NOT kick in for 20 or more years (1990 is 20 years AFTER 1970, most of the Great Society Programs kicked in from 1966-1970, thus the decline after 1990 fits the drop in murder rates after 1990.

Now, the above two reasons are NOT incompatible (i.e. BOTH could be working together), but I mention them for they provide a better explanation for the drop in the Murder rate then the various Gun Control laws passed since WWI (and the claim that Legalized Abortion is the reason, i.e. less unwanted children, mean more children that are loved as children and thus such children grow up to be less violent).

If anybody is still skeptical about whether gun control works, Jamaal510 Dec 2012 #1
So what lessons do Chicago, Philly and DC teach us? hack89 Dec 2012 #8
Pennsylvania has famously weak gun control CreekDog Dec 2012 #13
Don't want to talk about Chicago and DC? Don't blame you. nt hack89 Dec 2012 #15
i want to talk about why you tried to pull a fast one on people here. CreekDog Dec 2012 #18
So I was wrong about Philly. I am right about Chicago and DC hack89 Dec 2012 #19
you're saying that one or two exceptions means gun control doesn't work? CreekDog Dec 2012 #20
Did you see what the police commissioner said was the difference hack89 Dec 2012 #21
again, you are basing your argument on one example to prove a trend CreekDog Dec 2012 #23
So give me a city that did not use racial profiing hack89 Dec 2012 #24
San Francisco, with a homicide rate of 5.9, lower than NYC CreekDog Dec 2012 #25
But Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati, Newark, Los Angeles and DC hack89 Dec 2012 #40
i asked you if your standard for effective gun control is that 100% correlation? CreekDog Dec 2012 #45
So gun control is the reason for low murder rates in some CA cities hack89 Dec 2012 #49
but there is a correlation, you just think that if it's not 100% correlation, it's zero CreekDog Dec 2012 #53
Illegal gun ownership you mean? hack89 Dec 2012 #55
and to your lies? please address your lies about Ohio and Michigan gun laws here CreekDog Dec 2012 #57
Still avoiding the awkward question I see. nt hack89 Dec 2012 #60
What determines a state having lax gun laws? Bay Boy Dec 2012 #84
Hack89 was calling the gun laws in OH and MI tough, like Ny, NJ and CA CreekDog Dec 2012 #93
Yes, see below from Yavin4, and that is the issue. NYC doesnt border a state with lax gun control stevenleser Dec 2012 #29
That really pisses me off when gun trolls pull that "Chicago has a handgun ban" crap. Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2012 #35
Gun liars bongbong Dec 2012 #37
There will be no meaningful changes hack89 Dec 2012 #59
I'll bet on something else bongbong Dec 2012 #91
Not as big as yours I would imagine. hack89 Dec 2012 #92
Thank You!!!! This is it! DevonRex Dec 2012 #36
Poverty, crime, drugs, gangs and desperation the issue here hack89 Dec 2012 #42
Of course -- LTX Dec 2012 #44
I think government can fix those problems. hack89 Dec 2012 #54
the issue in this thread is your continuing effort to lie to other posters about gun laws CreekDog Dec 2012 #47
Washington, DC. 479 murders in 1990, this year we've reached only 87. kwassa Dec 2012 #81
I know - people don't appreciate just how far murder rates have fallen. nt hack89 Dec 2012 #88
Since you love to call other posters liars former9thward Dec 2012 #90
Philly cannot by law have stricter gun regulation than PA CreekDog Dec 2012 #94
It seems the PA Supreme Court disagrees with you. former9thward Dec 2012 #95
the point stands regardless of a "lost and stolen" provision in local statutes CreekDog Dec 2012 #98
If you are a liberal you are one of the most intolerant I have seen. former9thward Dec 2012 #100
the argument Hack made was that Philly had tough gun laws, which they don't, period. CreekDog Dec 2012 #103
I Can Talk about DC. I grew up there. Yavin4 Dec 2012 #22
You mean VA, with its *much* lower murder rate? Recursion Dec 2012 #66
Tells Me That VA Does Not Have The Same Socio-Economic Factors Driving Gun Violence Yavin4 Dec 2012 #79
nope bossy22 Dec 2012 #9
Yup. nt NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #26
It must be because of the smaller sodas. hughee99 Dec 2012 #2
One fifth of the number of murders there used to be Kolesar Dec 2012 #4
Cue the NRA's snark-bots! villager Dec 2012 #3
While we are waiting for them, perhaps you can explain hack89 Dec 2012 #12
Philadelphia doesn't have strict gun control --oh, they'd like to, but the state forbids it CreekDog Dec 2012 #14
That still leaves Chicago and DC. How do you explain their murder rates? nt hack89 Dec 2012 #16
DC is a short ride from VA, which has lax gun control RetroLounge Dec 2012 #28
yep, NJ also has strict gun control... and the most violent parts are adjacent to PA. bettyellen Dec 2012 #30
Exactly. These areas are smack-dab next to NRA wet-dream zones. villager Dec 2012 #32
so, we ban the guns and continue to watch the economic implosion . . . Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #34
Yeah, that's exactly what he DIDN'T say RetroLounge Dec 2012 #38
no shit Sherlock. notice the question mark at the end of my Question. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #43
No, I didn't, I noticed you making shit up RetroLounge Dec 2012 #72
thank-you, Mr. Snark. Your condescending attitude is duly noted. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #78
Ooh, now THAT is really quite the come-back... RetroLounge Dec 2012 #86
ideally, we tackle both.... villager Dec 2012 #80
Yet VA has a much lower murder rate then DC so how can it be the guns? hack89 Dec 2012 #41
minutes away from lax gun laws in Indiana CreekDog Dec 2012 #46
One thing we do know hack89 Dec 2012 #48
one thing we know: you continually post lies to win arguments CreekDog Dec 2012 #51
So those surrounding areas have equally high rates of violence hack89 Dec 2012 #50
before we move on, what about your lies about the gun laws in Michigan and Ohio? CreekDog Dec 2012 #52
All those states have enjoyed historic drops in gun violence hack89 Dec 2012 #56
you said they had strict gun laws, you are lying CreekDog Dec 2012 #58
If they work then they are strict enough. hack89 Dec 2012 #61
everyone sees your other posts, they know you are dissembling CreekDog Dec 2012 #63
And you hurt your cause by refusing to acknowledge hack89 Dec 2012 #69
you still won't talk about the lies you posted about Ohio and Michigan CreekDog Dec 2012 #62
And you will keep ignoring the awkward issue hack89 Dec 2012 #64
gun control is MORE likely because of the way you've argued in this thread CreekDog Dec 2012 #65
There will be no significant gun control legislation. hack89 Dec 2012 #71
My excuse for chicago? RetroLounge Dec 2012 #70
Yet Chicago has enjoyed historic drops in gun violence hack89 Dec 2012 #73
I answered the question you ignored above. RetroLounge Dec 2012 #74
And I showed the illogic of your answer. hack89 Dec 2012 #75
You only think you did RetroLounge Dec 2012 #76
The facts speak for themselves hack89 Dec 2012 #77
I'm not certain that your conclusions are complete, either. There are causes beyond the ones kwassa Dec 2012 #83
Yeah, those 20 kids were safe too RetroLounge Dec 2012 #85
I am not arguing for more guns. hack89 Dec 2012 #87
When backed into a corner- Lovejoy! friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #104
You can try and fool other posters but you can't fool me. former9thward Dec 2012 #89
I also grew up in Chicago, and the laws used to be a lot less restrictive RetroLounge Dec 2012 #96
Yes IN is. former9thward Dec 2012 #97
Houston has 1/2 the murder rate of Chicago, with few gun restrictions friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #105
Fruits of stop-and-frisk hack89 Dec 2012 #5
There Were 20 First Graders Whose Civil Rights Were Disregarded, Recently. Paladin Dec 2012 #10
Are you familiar with stop and frisk? hack89 Dec 2012 #11
I think it is more then mostly Ohio Joe Dec 2012 #17
on the other side of this, because of stop-and-frisk kwassa Dec 2012 #82
So New York went from BELOW the national average in Murder, to the top, then down? happyslug Dec 2012 #6
Not surprising, as you need at least $250K a year to survive in NYC - downandoutnow Dec 2012 #7
So only poor people murder? JackRiddler Dec 2012 #27
Sorry! -- I was joking about the whole "250K to survive" thing. downandoutnow Dec 2012 #33
I'm sorry too - it's all good. JackRiddler Dec 2012 #39
Only? No. Mostly? Yes. (nt) Recursion Dec 2012 #67
Bloomberg is a good guy? Really? JoeyT Dec 2012 #31
Bloomberg is the singular biggest populist in the nation & the biggest enviornmentalist graham4anything Dec 2012 #102
Just about every city's murder rate every year has been a record low for several years Recursion Dec 2012 #68
Too bad Chicago and strict gun laws are at a record murder pace. Zax2me Dec 2012 #99
Congratulations Mike Bloomberg. Rejoin the Democrat party, and if Hillary45 for some reason don't graham4anything Dec 2012 #101
(ahem) DemocratIC Party :) nt Nine Jan 2013 #106
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