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In reply to the discussion: Glenn Greenwald vs. Cass Sunstein -- Battle Royal, in their own words! [View all]Octafish
(55,745 posts)81. You are most welcome, reorg! Here's my problem with Dr. Zelikow...
My biggest problem with the guy has to do with his interpretation of what President Kennedy really said during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Dr. Zelikow and his co-author Ernest R. May wrote "The Kennedy Tapes." The work has misinterpreted important statements and, thereby, reinterpreted history -- what the scholars call "revisionism."
What JFK Really Said
The author checked the Cuban-missile-crisis transcript in The Kennedy Tapes against the recorded words. He discovered "errors that undermine its reliability for historians, teachers, and general readers
by Sheldon M. Stern
The Atlantic
EXCERPT...
An unforgettable moment in these unique historical records concerns JFK's apprehension that military action in Cuba might touch off the ultimate nightmare of nuclear war, which he grimly describes at a meeting on October 18 as "the final failure." Brian McGrory, of The Boston Globe, who listened to this tape with me in 1994, after it was declassified, used those words in the lead of his article on the newly released tapes. But when I checked the transcript recently, I was unable to find "the final failure." Certain that the editors must be right, since they had technically cleaner tapes, I listened again; there is no question that Kennedy says "the final failure." The editors, however, have transcribed it as "the prime failure."
SNIP...
The participants then discuss evidence that work on the missile sites is continuing. They debate whether to add petroleum, oil, and lubricants (POL) to the list of quarantined materials immediately, or to wait twenty-four hours to see if talks proposed by UN Secretary-General U Thant produce a breakthrough. McGeorge Bundy, Kennedy's national security adviser, suggests that they "leave the timing until we've talked about the U Thant initiative." The inaccuracy in The Kennedy Tapes is especially bizarre in this case, with Bundy saying "leave the timing until we've talked about the attack thing." These last two examples"the destroyers " and "the attack thing"could easily leave a reader wondering what in the world these men were talking about. (Three days later, on October 29, U Thant was mentioned again. JFK asserts, "We want U Thant to know that Adlai is our voice." But The Kennedy Tapes transcribes this line as "We want you to know that Adlai is our voice."
October 27 saw the darkest moment in the crisis. An unconfirmed report was received at midday that a U-2 spy plane had been shot down over Cuba by a Soviet SAM missile, and the pilot killed. On the tape of the late-afternoon meeting Kennedy discusses whether to order an air strike on the SAM sites if the incident is repeated (a delay that produced consternation at the Pentagon). He declares that two options are on the table: begin conversations about Khrushchev's proposal to swap Soviet missiles in Cuba for U.S. missiles in Turkey, or reject discussions until the Cuban crisis is settled. Kennedy chooses the first, with the caveat that the Soviets must provide proof that they have ceased work on the missile sites. He repeatedly refers to "conversations" and "discussions" and concludes, "Obviously, they're not going to settle the Cuban question until they get some conversation on Cuba." Incredibly, The Kennedy Tapes substitutes "compensation" for "conversation." It's easy to imagine how Cold War veterans like Rusk, Bundy, and McCone would have reacted to any suggestion of compensation for the Soviets in Cuba.
On October 29, the day after Khrushchev agreed to remove the missiles, the President and his advisers, relieved but not euphoric, conclude that surveillance and the quarantine will continue until the missiles have actually been removed. After a lull in the meeting, during which the conversation turns to college football, the President observes, "I imagine the Air Force must be a little mad," referring to the division of responsibility for aerial photography between the Air Force and the Joint Chiefs' photo-reconnaissance office. The Kennedy Tapes transcribes this as "I imagine the airports must be looking bad," which must leave many readers scratching their heads: the removal of the missiles had nothing to do with Cuban airports. Kennedy then ponders why, in the end, the Soviets decided to back down. He notes, "We had decided Saturday night to begin this air strike on Tuesday." No effort was made to conceal the military buildup in southern Florida, and Kennedy wonders if the impending strikes pushed the Russians to withdraw their missiles. The Kennedy Tapes, however, has JFK saying "We got the signs of life to begin this air strike on Tuesday," making his shrewd speculation unintelligible.
ONE particular error, among scores not cited above, seems to epitomize the problems with these transcripts. On the October 18 tape Dean Rusk argues that before taking military action in Cuba, the United States should consult Khrushchev, in the unlikely event that he would agree to remove the missiles. "But at least it will take that point out of the way," The Kennedy Tapes has Rusk saying, "and it's on the record." But Rusk actually said that this consultation would remove that point "for the historical record." The historical record is indeed the issue here.
CONTINUED...
http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/2000/05/stern.htm
Personally, I understand Dr. Zelikow's a fine fellow. Brilliant, well-read and a great writer and thinker, people who know him say. I wonder why he'd be so interested in creating such a conservative perspective on history.
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Glenn Greenwald vs. Cass Sunstein -- Battle Royal, in their own words! [View all]
Octafish
Jun 2012
OP
Well, I hope you are speaking for yourself. I don't see this anti-government sentiment
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#40
Exactly, he was hated and is hated by the Right. That's how you could tell a rightwinger
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#13
No, actually, he's not. That is why it is so odd that he was targeted by the BOA and their
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#18
Well lots of his articles were posted here during the Bush years which is where most
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#59
Why do I feel Greenwald has far more integrity than Sunstein? Because Sunstein proposed
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#16
The guy who wants to silence conspiracy theorists also wants us to ''move on'' from Bush crimes.
Octafish
Jun 2012
#19
SUNSTEIN wants to ''MOVE ON'' from illegal Bush TORTURE and DOMESTIC SPYING lawbreaking.
Octafish
Jun 2012
#82
Well, he won't know whether you are over him or whether or not you care if he is crushed,
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#36
I address what you write. What you wrote so far was to repeat the smears against Greenwald.
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#50
Meanwhile, it's "Austerity time! We can't afford _blank_ anymore." for everyone else.
Electric Monk
Jun 2012
#27
Yes, and Glenn also supported the Iraq war and the Citizens United decision.
Bolo Boffin
Jun 2012
#30
We knew that in 2005 when he first started blogging. He wrote about it in his book
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#38
You are not making sense. What are you looking for? I have nothing personal I would want to say
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#54
Totally in Greg's corner. Torture on a massive scale. Practiced by Americans directly.
Overseas
Jun 2012
#27
It Gets Bigger: Greenwald broke the Gonzo-Comey-Ashcan-on-a-Deathbed NSA Superspy scandal story...
Octafish
Jun 2012
#61
I remember that. I remember Comey telling how he had rushed to Ashcroft's hospital room to protect
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#63
You're so clever about how you work talking about your conspiracy theories into GD.
Bolo Boffin
Jun 2012
#64
For years, you have called me a "conspiracy theorist" - repeatedly. So what's not true, bolo boffin?
Octafish
Jun 2012
#65
If anybody knows how to navigate the politics of bringing Bush et al to justice,
struggle4progress
Jun 2012
#56
The bottom line being: you also have no idea how to navigate the necessary politics.
struggle4progress
Jun 2012
#76
We can't get organized without good information. That's where Corporate McPravda & Sunstein come in.
Octafish
Jun 2012
#78
Not at all: GG wants you to choose your dinner. CS wants you to eat the only thing on the menu.
Octafish
Jun 2012
#80
Well, your last sentence explains a lot. I guess Russ Feingold wasn't smart enough
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#85