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sibelian

(7,804 posts)
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:00 PM Nov 2015

"YOU THERE! Why do you hate Muslims?" [View all]

Last edited Fri Dec 4, 2015, 05:53 AM - Edit history (2)

"YOU THERE. Why do you hate Muslims?"

"I don't. I think Islam is a bad idea."

"Look. There are millions and millions of ordinary Muslims all over the world. They are lovely, kind, honest, decent people who hurt no-one. They have children and laugh and cry and dream and want to have an ordinary life like everyone else. Why do you hate them?"

"I don't hate them. I agree that Muslims are very nice people just like everyone else. I think Islam is a bad idea. I don't hate the people who believe in Islam, I think they believe the wrong things. I also think punishing Muslims in general for the actions of the radicalised followers of their religion would be utterly horrible."

"Don't you understand that bigotry is wrong?"

"Yes, I understand that perfectly."

"No, you only THINK that you do."

"No, I know that I do."

"Why do you hate Muslims?"

"I don't. I have gone out of my way to tell you exactly in plain English how I feel about Muslims, and that I am able to distinguish between Muslims and Islam as entities in the Universe and why they should be thought about as separate things. I think the person who is having difficulty separating them is not me, but you."

"I'm not talking about Islam, I'm talking about MUSLIMS? Why do you hate Muslims?"

"I don't hate Muslims. I disagree with Islam. Whenever I say 'Islam', you seem to hear 'Muslims'. The words are different and refer to different things. That, in fact, is the reason we have different words for the two things, to make it a simple matter to distinguish between them. I am quite careful to use the appropriate nouns when I relate my thoughts to people, specifically to avoid the confusion you are accusing me of and make it very clear to them that I already understand the difference between Muslims and Islam."

"Look. Muslims are in danger. People are bigoted against them. You are one of these bigots, you just don't realise it. You are saying you hate Islam but really I think you have to admit it, don't you? This is just racism. You hate Muslims."

"No, I don't hate Muslims. The reason I am able to say this to you in the hope that you will accept what I say in good faith is because I partake of that fundamentally human characteristic that I share with both them and you - a subjective experience of my own cognition. This means that When I Think Things, I am able to report to you directly the results of my thinking. You don't have to work it out, I can actually just tell you. And what I'm telling you is that Muslims and Islam are different things and can be thought about as different things by virtue of the fact that Muslims are living organisms and Islam is a cluster of concepts. Having been alive and capable of interacting with other ordinary human beings all over the planet for some years now, I have arrived at the conclusion that human beings and abstract concepts are separable all by myself and understand that it is in fact possible to make judgements of a belief without supposing that someone holding that belief is in any sense inherently unwholesome or nasty or smelly or bad or ugly or scary or weird or describable with any other adjectives with negative overtones. It was not difficult for me to arrive at this conclusion as I myself have been wrong about some things, as have you, I strongly suspect, and understand that sometimes brains produce junk. It is the junk that I don't like, not the brains, nor the owners of those brains. I do not hate Muslims. In fact, I know many Muslims. I have no doubt that you will dismiss that as another example of the "Some of my best friends are...", argument, which dismissal would be the right thing to do if I was suggesting knowing them qualified me to ignore what they say, which is what the "Some of my best friends are" argument is actually wrong about, but in fact I am saying it to disabuse you of your unfounded assumption about me, to wit, that I hate Muslims."

"You just admitted it! You just said you hate Muslims!"

"Rather a lot was said by me before I arrived at that phrase, and said phrase could only be interpreted as an expression of actual hatred of Muslims by someone who had ignored every one of my preceding points."

"You do hate them. Subconsciously. That's why you said you hate Muslims. Why can't you see it?"

"Because there's nothing there to see. Only somebody who doesn't actually understand what the subconscious is could make your most recent assertion. Speech is a product of the conscious mind, not the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind does not have that power. Nor is it at all meaningful or true to suppose that the subconscious mind has the power to express hidden meanings in the produce of the conscious mind, particularly not if the plain structure of that produce explicitly contradicts that hidden meaning. If I say: "I don't know how anyone could hate gay people," you might suppose that I secretly hated gay people because my utterance contains the phrase 'hate gay people' but that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? What we're seeing here instead is perpetual threat perception with the sensitivity turned all the way up to the max in service of a hero-complex."

"Your words are HARMING MUSLIMS."

"There is no harm coming to Muslims from my dislike of Islam. Harm coming to Muslims requires a generalised disinterest in separating people from their belief structures, which is not what I'm doing, and in cases where some imaginary nasty people listening to what I have said and deciding that it legitimises their own extant hatred of Muslims I am not responsible for the emotional charge around their perceptions of Muslims as their hatred is extant. They would be looking for excuses to hate them anyway just as you are looking for excuses to accuse me of hatred resembling theirs. There is nothing in what I have said that could cause hatred of Muslims, other than in the minds of people who want excuses to hate Muslims, which would not be my fault. Such increased danger is in fact far more likely to come from being freaked out by things getting blown up by Islamic terrorists. People who think symbolically rather than logically do not need my opinions to help them with their hatred. They're actually much more likely to ignore me completely, given that they will be able to tell that I don't hate Muslims through my having said so in ordinary words, thus alienating me from them. So if you think my statements are adding weight to the wrong side of an enormous, imaginary, collective, Human Opinion See-Saw on which one side is 'hate Muslims' and on the other is 'leave Muslims alone' I ask you to consider this idea - that you are thinking metaphorically instead of logically and you should learn to read what is said to you and absorb its meaning in plain English rather than reflexively and petulantly relating it exclusively to structures it reminds you of already within your own mind."

"This is just 'hate the sin, not the sinner' all over again!"

"Your capacity for wilful misunderstanding would win you an Olympic medal. The reason 'hate the sin, not the sinner' is a problem is because that position obscures the idea that the thing under discussion, that being gay people living their lives according to the ordinary processes emergent from their sexual orientation, is a 'sin', which it isn't. The 'argument' places the asserter of sin in a context where they don't actually have to discuss the nature of the 'sin' beacuse they have a special way of thinking about themselves as nice people and so can think what they like because they're nice. They maintain the idea that gay people living their lives according to their hearts and their nature is a 'sin' by putting themselves on a totally bogus 'secretly more tolerant than thou' pedestal which doesn't actually have anything to do with understanding homosexuality. This process has nothing at all to do with the fact that Islam has weird, creepy ideas or that Islam is criticisable without assuming Muslims are evil people. 'Hate the sin not the sinner' places the focus on the interlocutor's relationship with the 'sinner' and actually avoids discussing the 'sin'. 'Criticise Islam, Respect Muslims' places the focus on Islam, not Muslims and so in fact does the exact opposite thing of 'hate the sin, not the sinner'. 'Hate the sin not the sinner'' is senseless because it's ridiculous to suppose homosexuality is a sin. Also, the supposed separation between the 'sin' and the 'sinner' is utterly bogus as legislation is constantly brought into being around homosexuals not homosexual behaviour. 'Criticise Islam, Respect Muslims' treats Islam as a belief structure to be criticised, which is an entirely logical and reasonable thing. Sexual orientation is not a belief structure. There, I have had to go to considerable lengths to unpack that one, I can't wait for the next wildly inappropriate co-option of minority identity political analysis, go for it. Perhaps you might like to consider the possibility that comparing 'hate the sin, not the sinner' to attempts to separate Islam from Muslims is grotesquely offensive to gay people as gay people are regularly slaughtered as a result of Islam, incidentally, not that that seems to make much difference to people like you."

".......God damn you. Why do you hate Muslims?"

"I don't. I think Islam is a bad idea. I have already said this. I used the right nouns and everything. This is really annoying."

"Islam is a religion of peace."

"That is demonstrably false. Waste no more of our time on that idea, please. It is obviously a lie. Islam is no more a religion of peace than Christianity is or Communism or Capitalism are political structures of peace or cucumbers are vegetables of international dialling codes. The Koran in fact has various specifications regarding the appropriate conduct of warfare."

"You said something nasty about the Koran! You hate Muslims."

"No, I don't hate Muslims. I have said this to you repeatedly now. What I actually think is that Islam is a bad idea."

"But your mind is made of cheese and your vicious, sizzling, neurotic, twisted horror of Islam will morph psychologically into a seething hatred of its followers because you are secretly MAD."

"No, that's not really how my mind works. Actually, most people's minds don't work like that. In fact, the vast majority of ordinary human beings don't think like that at all. I think your model for understanding People Who Are Not You might be a bit strange. Perhaps you are using the utterly tiny number of hate crimes against Muslims as evidence of some widespread phenomenon akin to the foul loathing of Jewish people in the mid-20th century that led to their being rounded up and murdered during the Holocaust, which was a highly peculiar thing as no Jewish people had blown anything up or cut off anyone's heads or killed any gay people because of Judaism or decided women were inherently too decorative to be seen or untrustworthy behind the wheel of a motorised vehicle because of the Torah or anything like that. The current situation is dramatically different. There is a great deal of hatred against Muslims, but I do not partake of it, and that hatred is not emergent from a national fever dream but from what a number of Islamic terrorists have actually done. It is very regrettable but not particularly mad, under the circumstances. It is well within the normal range of human reaction."

"Listen to me. You have to understand something. Muslims are kind, decent people. They are friendly. They love their children. They are good. They must not be hurt by your Islamophobia."

"I'm not interested in Islamophobia. I have no interest in hurting or upsetting Muslims and my distrust of Islam is not a phobia. The things that concern me about Islam, which is a different thing from Muslims, are firstly that it features a broad-spectrum cloud, centred on a commonality of religious movements pursued under the banner of 'Islam', of weird, twisted, ugly ideas about women, gay people and people who aren't Muslims, which is antithetical to my own beliefs about women, gay people and people who aren't Muslims, and secondly, that it produces people who want to blow innocent people up with alarming frequency. I disagree with these ideas. I think they are wrong. That is why I have repeatedly attempted to explain to you that I already understand that Muslims and Islam are not the same thing and I am beginning to think you are here entirely to waste my time as you are obviously congenitally incapable of separating Islam from Muslims yourself."

"They're trying to blow us up because we bombed them."

"That doesn't work, does it? The Muslims who are attacking us very often don't even come from the areas we are bombing. It doesn't make any sense. Suppose you are a Christian. Would you place yourself in a suicide bombing vest and bomb innocent people because someone in a totally different country suicide-bombed a church in another totally different country? I would suspect not. There is a belief structure that seems to legitimise this kind of response, and not just in the minds of the people doing the suicide bombing but also in those seeking to protect those who share the suicide bombers religion, that belief structure is Islam. Are atheists Christianophobic? No. That's a very silly idea. Actually, I find the word 'Islamophobia' very strange indeed. If it was 'Muslimophobia' it would make for more sense. Conflating criticism of an idea with meaningless prejudice against its believers is exactly that, a conflation. Islam is a belief structure like any other and open to criticism and analysis like any other."

"Why do you hate Muslims?"

"I don't."

"Why don't you understand that you hate Muslims? You think you disagree with Islam but really you hate Muslims."

"I don't hate Muslims."

"Do you understand that your constant doubling down only re-affirms your deep and abiding hatred of Muslims?"

"I have no deep and abiding hatred of Muslims. I have explained this to you."

"Your hatred of Muslims is so deep, so evil and terrible. Why do you hate them? Don't you see how scary you are?"

"I do not hate Muslims. I think Islam is a bad idea. I am not scary. Belief structures that legitimise hanging gay men and treating women like useless possessions of little more social consequence than a farm-animal are scary. They are a great deal scarier than people who want to point out that they are scary but only mildly scarier than people who want to stifle the opinions of those who think the belief structures themselves are scary by repeatedly asserting that criticism of the belief structure is akin to racism. It's not."

"How deep your Islamophobia runs. You need to see a psychiatrist."

"No, there's nothing wrong with me."

"That's exactly what you would say if there WAS something wrong with you."

"It is also exactly what I would say if there wasn't. I refer you to my earlier observations regarding your easily inferable internal model of People Who Are Not You."

"Why do you hate Muslims?"

"Why do you keep asking me that when I've already told you a ridiculous number of times that I don't?"

"Because you really DO hate Muslims and you just don't realise that you do. Why would you hate Islam so deeply if it wasn't because you hate Muslims? Don't you realise that Muslims and Islam are different things?"

"Yes, I understand that perfectly, which is why I said so as clearly and articulately as possible so as to avoid your supposing that I didn't. What I DON'T do is suppose that Islam and Muslims being different things is the end of the analysis, I also believe different judgements of them are possible through their being different things and I'm beginning to think that you don't. I'm also beginning think that the separation of Islam and Muslims is an idea you would prefer to have wrangled out of your interlocutor despite themselves, if you actually had any interest in separating a religion conceptually from its followers at all. If you had a deep-seated need to feel like you were defending somebody without having to go through any of the messy, complicated, cost-ridden physical, intellectual and emotional efforts of actually defending them from something, pretending that other people's words mean things that they don't and arguing with your imaginary version of their meanings would be an excellent way of doing it, wouldn't it? An Internet message board would be a wonderful way of doing it, too. People contradicted - any number of them. Muslims actually saved - zero."

"You hate Muslims. You hate them so deeply. Your hatred of Muslims is a scary bad thing. Scary Bad."

"You are an imbecile."

"Why do you hate Muslims?"

"Why aren't you on medication?"

"Why do you hate Muslims?"

"Noob. Ignored."

......

(Gr! Fucking bigots. Fucking Islamophobic SHITS. Fuck Fuck Fuck)

Type. Press. Search. Open Tab.... THREAD. THREAD, THREAD, THREAD!

"YOU THERE! Why do you hate Muslims?"

77 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
I was specifically told by another DUer on this board that being anti-Islam is the same as being Coventina Nov 2015 #1
It's utterly ridiculous. sibelian Dec 2015 #18
That's what the far-right Christians say. Oneironaut Dec 2015 #36
Brilliant! beam me up scottie Nov 2015 #2
Thank you... sibelian Dec 2015 #38
We all do. beam me up scottie Dec 2015 #40
K&R nt LostOne4Ever Nov 2015 #3
My views on Muslims are well known, or so I've heard. /nt LiberalAndProud Nov 2015 #4
I've had this convo on DU more than I care to think about riderinthestorm Nov 2015 #5
Nailed it. Warren DeMontague Nov 2015 #6
One can insert ANY religion in for 'Islam' and adherents of that faith will say the same thing. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #7
Link to one post where the response to criticising the Pope, Born Agains snagglepuss Nov 2015 #11
Plenty of posts just like you ask for, but I'm not doing your legwork for you. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #12
Yep. Xithras Dec 2015 #30
Ugh... sibelian Dec 2015 #39
Very apt description of the discourse here concerning Crunchy Frog Dec 2015 #70
Did you share this with the athiests? And swap Muslim with Christian when you do it. Township75 Nov 2015 #8
I don't see the problem there tkmorris Nov 2015 #10
Why? What will be so good about it? cleanhippie Nov 2015 #13
Do you think atheists don't criticize Muslims and Christians? beam me up scottie Dec 2015 #14
Careful, I think your bigotry is showing. mr blur Dec 2015 #17
I think the place I'm trying to get to between liberals and Islam and/or Muslims sibelian Dec 2015 #20
Dunno why; would read about the same to this atheist whatthehey Dec 2015 #28
I'm an atheist. I hate religion (Christianity included) but I don't hate religious people. Arugula Latte Dec 2015 #42
Excellent. Curmudgeoness Nov 2015 #9
Rec'd and kicked. Thank you. onager Dec 2015 #15
we're supposed to pretend we don't know of such things, onager Skittles Dec 2015 #16
It's a feckin' farce. sibelian Dec 2015 #49
Yes. I've got past the stage of being polite about these things, being European. sibelian Dec 2015 #19
What country are you in? What has been your experience? smirkymonkey Dec 2015 #27
I'm from Scotland, which is actually very VERY homogenously white. sibelian Dec 2015 #29
Thank you for sharing that. I have heard similar stories from others. smirkymonkey Dec 2015 #32
A lot of the media personnel are highly privileged, particularly in the BBC sibelian Dec 2015 #33
Interesting. Good to know. I often read the Guardian and am frequently smirkymonkey Dec 2015 #34
Yes. The Guardian's actually an excellent example of exactly what I'm talking about. sibelian Dec 2015 #37
Why are you here? rockfordfile Dec 2015 #46
I've been here for ages. sibelian Dec 2015 #48
Who do you think you are? Accusing a long time DU'er of not being worthy of posting on smirkymonkey Dec 2015 #51
Why are you here? beam me up scottie Dec 2015 #55
"You there. WHY DO YOU HATE LIBERALS?!" sibelian Dec 2015 #56
But it DID work, at least much better, in the past whatthehey Dec 2015 #61
The areas they actually came from were different in those days, too. sibelian Dec 2015 #62
Look at you, arguing with a made-up person. blogslut Dec 2015 #21
Yes. It was very satisfying. sibelian Dec 2015 #25
Well, people pray all the time, and that's "talking" to a made-up person-thing-being. Arugula Latte Dec 2015 #44
It's much easier to win against a straw man. n/t cpwm17 Dec 2015 #75
Indeed. In fact, victory is guaranteed! sibelian Dec 2015 #77
As Liberals, we need to challenge all ideologies Yavin4 Dec 2015 #22
I think it's an underdog thing theboss Dec 2015 #24
I understand the need to defend a minority group from hate here in the US. I get that entirely. Yavin4 Dec 2015 #31
You understand that need, but I offer Westboro Baptist Church, which did hundreds of hateful pickets Bluenorthwest Dec 2015 #57
Westboro Church is, like, 20 people all with the last name Phelps theboss Dec 2015 #58
minority group DustyJoe Dec 2015 #76
Exactly. We challenge conservatives and conservatism every day, too. arcane1 Dec 2015 #26
I would include cultural as well. True Earthling Dec 2015 #35
"I like to talk." nt Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2015 #23
It reminds me of a man who said Aerows Dec 2015 #41
I don't hate anyone. cwydro Dec 2015 #43
Me neither. sibelian Dec 2015 #45
I like what you post. cwydro Dec 2015 #47
Why do you hate Christians? Quackers Dec 2015 #50
CUZ THEY'RE FUNNY LOOKIN' sibelian Dec 2015 #54
Thank you! Behind the Aegis Dec 2015 #52
You're welcome and yes, it makes my blood BOIL. sibelian Dec 2015 #53
Yawn. closeupready Dec 2015 #59
Aw, man. sibelian Dec 2015 #60
Nothing personal. I don't think you and I ever disagree that much, and closeupready Dec 2015 #64
OK, I did go on a bit. sibelian Dec 2015 #66
I know you mean well, hon. closeupready Dec 2015 #72
:) sibelian Dec 2015 #74
What's your point RosedaleGuy Dec 2015 #63
It's a reactionary OP. Islam seems to exist in this weird vaccuum sibelian Dec 2015 #65
As usual, an excellent OP. hifiguy Dec 2015 #67
Well said. sibelian Dec 2015 #68
The ME has been a tribal slaughterhouse for a thousand years. hifiguy Dec 2015 #69
Of course, you could say exactly the same thing about Europe. Crunchy Frog Dec 2015 #71
Some people seem to think all of these numerous wars the US has started are natural disasters. cpwm17 Dec 2015 #73
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