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In reply to the discussion: Is there anyway now that we can be considered not racist? [View all]Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)131. Want to not be considered a racist? It's pretty simple to do, really.
Listen to what people of colour tell you about their lived experiences and don't assume you know better than they do. And yes, I think that a lot of white liberals are unconsciously racist and paternalistic and terribly condescending. An excellent example of this sort of unconscious white liberal paternalism and condescension is in the exchange that Jonathan Chait had with Ta-Nehisi Coates of the Atlantic in which Chait was talking about "black cultural pathology" (the idea that black culture is inherently broken and therefore responsible for black poverty and incarceration rates). Read the links, there; long, but worth it. Key bit from Coates:
I'm happy that Chait decided to engage me here on a subject that he, himself, confesses is hard to quantify. I wish I'd had his input over the past few months when I was poring over redlining maps and grappling with the racism implicit in the New Deal. I wish I'd had his input when I was attempting to understand what it meant that in 1860 this country's most valuable asset was enslaved human beings. I think had we engaged each other then, he might well not have written something like this:
It is hard to explain how the United States has progressed from chattel slavery to emancipation to the end of lynching to the end of legal segregation to electing an African-American president if America has rarely been the ally of African-Americans and often its nemesis. It is one thing to notice the persistence of racism, quite another to interpret the history of black America as mainly one of continuity rather than mainly one of progress.
This certainly is a specimen of progressmuch like the ill-tempered man might "progress" from shooting at his neighbors to clubbing them and then finally settle on simply robbing them. His victims, bloodied, beaten, and pilfered, might view his "progress" differently. Effectively Chait's rendition of history amounts to, "How can you say I have a history of violence given that I've repeatedly stopped pummeling you?"
Chait's jaunty and uplifting narrative flattens out the chaos of history under the cheerful rubric of American progress. The actual events are more complicated. It's true, for instance, that slavery was legal in the United States in 1860 and five years later it was not. That is because a clique of slaveholders greatly overestimated its own power and decided to go to war with its country. Had the Union soundly and quickly defeated the Confederacy, it's very likely that slavery would have remained. Instead the war dragged on, and the Union was forced to employ blacks in its ranks. The end resulttotal emancipationwas more a matter of military necessity than moral progress.
Our greatest president, assessing the contribution of black soldiers in 1864, understood this:
We can not spare the hundred and forty or fifty thousand now serving us as soldiers, seamen, and laborers. This is not a question of sentiment or taste, but one of physical force which may be measured and estimated as horse-power and steam-power are measured and estimated. Keep it and you can save the Union. Throw it away, and the Union goes with it.
The United States of America did not save black people; black people saved the United States of America. With that task complete, our "ally" proceeded to repay its debt to its black citizens by pretending they did not exist.
It is hard to explain how the United States has progressed from chattel slavery to emancipation to the end of lynching to the end of legal segregation to electing an African-American president if America has rarely been the ally of African-Americans and often its nemesis. It is one thing to notice the persistence of racism, quite another to interpret the history of black America as mainly one of continuity rather than mainly one of progress.
This certainly is a specimen of progressmuch like the ill-tempered man might "progress" from shooting at his neighbors to clubbing them and then finally settle on simply robbing them. His victims, bloodied, beaten, and pilfered, might view his "progress" differently. Effectively Chait's rendition of history amounts to, "How can you say I have a history of violence given that I've repeatedly stopped pummeling you?"
Chait's jaunty and uplifting narrative flattens out the chaos of history under the cheerful rubric of American progress. The actual events are more complicated. It's true, for instance, that slavery was legal in the United States in 1860 and five years later it was not. That is because a clique of slaveholders greatly overestimated its own power and decided to go to war with its country. Had the Union soundly and quickly defeated the Confederacy, it's very likely that slavery would have remained. Instead the war dragged on, and the Union was forced to employ blacks in its ranks. The end resulttotal emancipationwas more a matter of military necessity than moral progress.
Our greatest president, assessing the contribution of black soldiers in 1864, understood this:
We can not spare the hundred and forty or fifty thousand now serving us as soldiers, seamen, and laborers. This is not a question of sentiment or taste, but one of physical force which may be measured and estimated as horse-power and steam-power are measured and estimated. Keep it and you can save the Union. Throw it away, and the Union goes with it.
The United States of America did not save black people; black people saved the United States of America. With that task complete, our "ally" proceeded to repay its debt to its black citizens by pretending they did not exist.
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I remember you calling ME racist and ageist one day. You wrote a thread about me and got mucho sympathy.
bravenak
Feb 2015
#1
You will have to find that post. I never did that. You misread, misinterpreted.
madfloridian
Feb 2015
#2
If you can't find it I can help. I was defending older white people you said you would replace.
madfloridian
Feb 2015
#4
It's a pattern....different incantations got welcomed back to post build in the Education Group.
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#102
Start here. I never said replace. I repeated what the other person said and continued.
bravenak
Feb 2015
#10
Not a bad idea for you to post that. It's clear I was standing up for attacks on elderly liberals.
madfloridian
Feb 2015
#15
MF, you don't need to prove anything to me, I believe I know your spirit and that is what makes
sabrina 1
Feb 2015
#213
I understand, and we appear to share the same 'enemies'. You can be judged as much by
sabrina 1
Feb 2015
#232
Bravenak, I hope it is. Because you are both DU treasures and as I just said to MF, probably more
sabrina 1
Feb 2015
#222
Let's be clear---you claimed to a jury that I had done a TOS violation, and I got a hide
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#18
"Anymore" being the operative word, right? Since "sorry" isn't something you think I deserve
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#189
It used to be a rule here at DU. I did not realize it was not a rule anymore.
madfloridian
Feb 2015
#191
Can you back that claim up? Since an older version of DU is still extant, kindly cite that rule. nt
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#196
It was the first time I used the term 'utter bullshit' on a hide. And guess what?
freshwest
Feb 2015
#373
Those who say that need to quit while they're behind. Or just keep digging. Meh.
freshwest
Feb 2015
#378
How many whites have redone songs by black artists? I can think of half a dozen right away.
freshwest
Feb 2015
#442
"because the folks on discussionist are laughing". Sad, but probably damn true.....
AverageJoe90
Feb 2015
#431
B, there is no need for you to play this tired little game. We ALL remember well that OP
Number23
Feb 2015
#82
There is an entire Internet meme entitled White Tears that immediately comes to mind for this thread
Number23
Feb 2015
#92
Some people have been practicing that level of "tenacious cluelessness" with a big old dash of
Number23
Feb 2015
#207
It's a very clear post. I attacked no one. Just asking for clarification.
madfloridian
Feb 2015
#224
You attacked bravenak and got about 300 recs for your trouble. Bravenak was brave to even bring
Number23
Feb 2015
#230
Hush, now! You are ruining a perfectly legitimate bout of melodrama by injecting facts into all
Number23
Feb 2015
#370
She must be on my you know what list... I see Name Removed has made a few appearances, too.
freshwest
Feb 2015
#394
I've never grasped that. 'If the shoe doesn't fit...' Why identify with the KOS piece?
freshwest
Feb 2015
#399
Yes, sigh. I know... Please send chocolate. Virtual organic raw dark chocolate.
freshwest
Feb 2015
#372
Word, indeed! (And yes we are both showing our ages as children of the 80s here!)
Number23
Feb 2015
#257
How did I miss this "white person whining about not enough privilege" thread LOLOLOL
NoJusticeNoPeace
Feb 2015
#301
Um..you've posted some amazingly insensitive things here...and everytime I asked
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#5
Ouch, then we are dealing with someone who is too dangerous to even respond to, sounds like to me
NoJusticeNoPeace
Feb 2015
#303
Even worse, her alert indicated to the jury that I was violating the TOS by
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#305
I am exhausted, I have been dealing with people here all day who hate the dem party
NoJusticeNoPeace
Feb 2015
#306
Yep. And frankly, they tend to be the thinnest-skinned individuals I have ever met. nt
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#307
you mean the ones who say there isnt enough difference in the parties to matter?
NoJusticeNoPeace
Feb 2015
#308
To white, straight, Libertarian males, the parties are the same because they
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#311
I Have been making that point, but I assume some of those arguing with me are female, maybe not
NoJusticeNoPeace
Feb 2015
#312
Well, I'd expect a DUer to be sensitive enough to show up to the AA group, no? nt
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#96
You want me to apologize to Glenn Greenwald for defending the money interests of Matt Hale?
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#142
Apologize to whom? You still haven't answered that. Who, precisely, did you you think was offended
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#158
In a thread where you are suggesting others give you an apology for perceived racial sleights,
Marr
Feb 2015
#165
That reference to a racist rant was a hypothetical, to illustrate to whom an apology might
Marr
Feb 2015
#195
Pretending not to understand how your words were insulting only makes it more disrespectful.
Marr
Feb 2015
#203
Been a pleasure. Do you have anything to say about racism, or was this just
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#208
Not sure what that is about, but who can forget the support that was given to the now-banned
sabrina 1
Feb 2015
#298
Oh Sabrina.....that you took the time to stalk my recs warms my heart. Seriously, I would think you
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#299
No need to look anything up. That awful thread was posted here a short while ago.
sabrina 1
Feb 2015
#326
I appreciate your backtrack....attacking someone for their recs is a silly waste of
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#329
Actually it was several other people who drew attention to those who had not retracted
sabrina 1
Feb 2015
#331
Ah...so if You rec multiple threads by a poster banned for homophobia, that's ok?
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#338
If you rec and then defend a homophobic thread, which airc, you did, then it appears to me
sabrina 1
Feb 2015
#343
Well....I think that's your interpretation. But again....you seem to carve out an exception
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#344
No exception, I don't rec OPs that contain attacks on people's gender or race.
sabrina 1
Feb 2015
#345
Did you post at the cave? Your rec on that homophobic OP was noticed by most DUers,
sabrina 1
Feb 2015
#367
Well--we all are not perfect. But I've been here long enough, and showed my ass long enough
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#441
In a thread about racism, all of a sudden, Greenwald is a victim.....doesn't that
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#147
As does your choice to continue suggesting a Jewish man is a Nazi sympathizer. /nt
Marr
Feb 2015
#177
Right....where I correctly noted that GG decided to voluntarily take up the case of a Neo-Nazi
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#193
That was 2 years ago. I have not used that source since I found it offended.
madfloridian
Feb 2015
#38
So you only linked to a racist site for the pictures, not the articles? Well, I'm sure
msanthrope
Feb 2015
#66
but it's mostly white people calling out other white people in this thread. that's why it's so
ND-Dem
Feb 2015
#103
Some people are highly invested in the concept that every last white person is racist,
Nye Bevan
Feb 2015
#33
Not minimizing. The OP I linked to made me feel sad inside. I posted this...
madfloridian
Feb 2015
#64
Whoa, when a whole long post makes white people in general look ridiculous...
madfloridian
Feb 2015
#152
That claim is a quote from an article title, not the stated opinion of the poster.
kwassa
Feb 2015
#124
I guess I don't understand why you feel the need to defend yourself based on that OP
fishwax
Feb 2015
#36
Okay. I do not believe all white people are racists. I think many really care.
madfloridian
Feb 2015
#76
where did you get "all white people are bad" or "all are racists" from that post?
fishwax
Feb 2015
#91
No, my belief is that OP gives impression all white people act like that.
madfloridian
Feb 2015
#105
"I appreciate your posts and tireless advocacy for teachers...." Seconded! nt
AverageJoe90
Feb 2015
#320
white people are all racist. it comes with the territory. per some. it's a way to blame white
ND-Dem
Feb 2015
#75
I didn't know they locked your thread. I rec'd one suggeting a donation to another cause, though.
freshwest
Feb 2015
#421
Yea, it looks like this thread has turned into a thread for some duers to attack the OP, and bring
dissentient
Feb 2015
#119
reminds me of little mindless biting ants: the kind that swarm over a weak animal and eventually
ND-Dem
Feb 2015
#127
Creepy is an understatement, as a lurker in the past at DU whenever I would see a thread like this
dissentient
Feb 2015
#134
you have been here less than a month, how do you know who the "usual suspects" are ?
JI7
Feb 2015
#184
Want to not be considered a racist? It's pretty simple to do, really.
Spider Jerusalem
Feb 2015
#131
'The United States of America did not save black people; black people saved the USA.' Thank You!
freshwest
Feb 2015
#420
very few white liberals will tell you there isn't any racism among liberals. very few republicans
ND-Dem
Feb 2015
#140
you didn't misspeak. just adding information. it's not like it's a revelation that some white
ND-Dem
Feb 2015
#160
I don't think this is all that complicated, just don't express any opinions on racial issues.
hughee99
Feb 2015
#198
Eh, virtually any poster who has more than a very few posts has been accused of something false
Fumesucker
Feb 2015
#260
Manny, while I don't normally agree with you.....you *nailed* this one! nt
AverageJoe90
Feb 2015
#324
I'm sorry, Ken, but although I respect you......I'm afraid you're dead wrong on this.
AverageJoe90
Feb 2015
#350
You're trying to blur the distinction- hobble the conversation- and no one is falling for it.
bettyellen
Feb 2015
#418
Poor dear feels bullied because people won't stop confusing bigotry and racism!!
bettyellen
Feb 2015
#423
In those posts you proposed that DU is more critical of Obama than the Democratic party
Vattel
Feb 2015
#385
You didn't use the word "replace," but what you did say could easily be taken as a claim
Vattel
Feb 2015
#397
I had explained that to her and apologized for hurting her feelings and told her I could not find a
bravenak
Feb 2015
#398
I liked that song, although I don't think they meant everything literally, of course.
AverageJoe90
Feb 2015
#366
On DU I learned that it's worse to call someone a racist than it is to actually experience racism
YoungDemCA
Feb 2015
#288
And who, I might add, has actually said, and/or implied such(literally)? nt
AverageJoe90
Feb 2015
#321
I find it amusing that your advice is for others to "try to listen a little better"
fishwax
Feb 2015
#358
I'm not gonna trash this thread, although I would have if it hadn't gotten going good.
freshwest
Feb 2015
#376
White Privilege is something all white people benefit form, even if we don't want to.
Agnosticsherbet
Feb 2015
#426
Many believe one response at Kos is the definitive fulcrum of what is or is not racism...
LanternWaste
Feb 2015
#432