Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

General Discussion

Showing Original Post only (View all)

PCIntern

(25,641 posts)
Sun Dec 1, 2013, 09:24 AM Dec 2013

Sunday Dental Thread: Leaking Composite Restorations and the Kennedy Assassination: [View all]

Do I have your attention? Perhaps? Good...then please read this entire post before you start spitting out your cornflakes or wheat germ or whatever...

In the early 1980's, what with all the narcissism, self-help books, ego-boosting, People Magazine buying, self-improvement kicks, one of things which people took note of was the presence of "unsightly" metal in their mouths, specifically amalgam and gold restorations otherwise known as fillings. In order to achieve a Hawthorn-ian Perfection of appearance, patients asked their dentists if they could place composite, normally specified only for front teeth, in their premolars and molars. The dental manufacturers, sensing a good thing, developed composites which were marginally appropriate for back teeth, if what you want to define as "marginally appropriate" was horrendously poor by then-community standards. This material began to fail, for the most part, before the check for the services rendered cleared the bank. Of course, the last thing a dentist wanted to do in those days was to have to revisit a tooth he or she had restored within 10-15 years and the practitioners were upset and most agitated that they were not having their usual 95-99% success rate. You must understand that 95% success over 10-15 years was considered poor back then. So the companies started working on their composite materials day and night and you cannot imagine the number of different brands proffered to the profession since then.

Now this is the interesting part of the story thus far: the economic pressures to increase production at the practitioner level brought a level of carelessness not often seen in the profession. We have a term for each material which we utilize which is how "technique sensitive" it is: that for example, you can place an amalgam restoration in the presence of some moisture, which you would call saliva, and be assured that it will have some fair success, say 10-12 years rather than 25-40 years. So amalgam is not too bad in this regard. Composite, however, has to be placed in an absolutely dry field and the etching for the placement of the unfilled resin has to be 100%...not 98...not 95...100% or it will begin leaking immediately leading to recurrent decay and virtually certain doom for the dental pulp of the tooth, necessitating a root canal, or if left undetected long enough, fracture and extraction. Now that is not the only problem: there are many others associated with composites. For example, if you place too much composite in a tooth which has a wide isthmus, or channel on the biting surface, the material will shrink, and since it is bonded to the outer and inner cusps of the tooth, it will tend to pull them together causing constant pain, as though someone placed extraction forceps on the tooth and squeezed continuously. This pain can be relieved, by the way, by channeling medio-laterally through the restoration and refilling it, thus relieving the internal tensions.

Now, what with all this going on, the manufacturers might have been screwn as they say, but no. They just kept merrily producing this stuff to this day and denying that there are any problems associated with its placement. Meanwhile, the technic (yes that is spelled correctly in dentistry) requires the use of aids to place it properly which are extremely time-consuming, intricate, and often simply fail: these include but are not limited to, fancy matrix bands and wedging techniques in order to establish a contact so food doesn't pack between the teeth, bases and liners which protect the nerve inside the tooth from the harm which might befall it due to the nature of the treatment materials, and other arcane issues which require resolution in order to have a satisfactory outcome. And of course, since there is a big big big profit motive here, and I say this without a smile on my face, there is NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE THAT THIS MATERIAL CAUSES PROBLEMS WHEN USED CORRECTLY. As an aside, my friends who are endodontists who do root canals all day, were well-pleased that some of their referring practitioners use this composite even for upper second molars which even we have problems visualizing with a mirror and bright light. Now of course, the manufacturers are dealing with people who are actually pretty bright, so instead of publishing a comprehensive study which would demonstrate that there is a dental morbidity and mortality associated with its use, they published literally hundreds of studies with all kinds of variables which were so confusing when read that you had no idea whether you were coming or going. And now, composite is the "material of choice" for back teeth. Anytime you attempt to quote a study which might demonstrate that there are significant problems, someone else will come up with three papers showing fifty different conclusions and you spend much of your time debating the experimental issues rather than the issues at hand.

And so it is with the assassinations of the Sixties and beyond: they put out so many theories, some sounding reasonable, some, not so reasonable, and some downright insane, that many people who can't distinguish one form the other, lump them all together and say, well, since I can't make heads or tails out of all this, then the official version must be true. Those who deny that there was variance with the Reports which emanated from official sources have many techniques for doing so which include but are not limited to: pure denial, denial of the existence of any credibility of any evidence to the contrary of their stated "facts", diminishing of the individual by associating them with such "wacky" issues as ostensibly faked moon-landings, disproving of the individual by pointing out one possible flaw in the entire argument, postulating that eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, stating unequivocally that there is an absolute profit motive surrounding the perpetuation of the issue, and many others.

To these and others I say, hogwash. The truth is staring you in the face, but the Establishment and others have set up so many two-way mirrors and falsities that you have no idea what is truth now and what is fiction. But the manufacturers have convinced many that their product is sound, we have come to accept failure as routine as a populus so that not only will you get restorations replaced in your mouth every five years instead of twenty-five years and that is all right, and also, incidentally, that you can have your President, his brother, and the leading Civil Right figure shot down in their primes and it really does not matter who might or might not have been involved. Good luck to all of us in these, and all respects. We are going to need it.

92 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
I read this entire OP. Honestly, I did. Where's the aspirin???..LOL.. monmouth3 Dec 2013 #1
no shit arely staircase Dec 2013 #77
You're exactly right about the flinging and slinging of preposterous theories. Zen Democrat Dec 2013 #2
K&R #5. Very good, thank you. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #3
Beats the crap out of me... PCIntern Dec 2013 #4
LOL & Thanks. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #8
Many dentistis wont even do amalgam anymore davidn3600 Dec 2013 #11
Did you read the article PCIntern wrote? Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #15
All gold in my mouth. nt msanthrope Dec 2013 #5
Rambling and nonsensical. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #6
Yes...absolutely... PCIntern Dec 2013 #7
It's like some people have an irony gland secreting neurochemicals that compel them. n/t Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #9
What point is that? Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #10
You're doing it again! PCIntern Dec 2013 #12
I'm not entirely certain what you're talking about. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #14
Don't bother to give me that innocence stuff... PCIntern Dec 2013 #16
I don't see very much reason there. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #20
You don't see it so it doesn't exist. PCIntern Dec 2013 #34
I don't see it because it's not there. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #35
thanks for the laugh! wildbilln864 Dec 2013 #48
you have been very personal and vindictive towards heaven05 Dec 2013 #42
Not realy, no Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #43
self absorbed is more like it, also heaven05 Dec 2013 #46
And I thought there was no conspiracy until I began to read about it myself a few years ago. sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #17
I find that difficult to believe. DanTex Dec 2013 #23
there is plenty heaven05 Dec 2013 #44
Yet another CTer speaking in abstract terms about "counter evidence" that's out there somewhere... DanTex Dec 2013 #51
when you finally wake up heaven05 Dec 2013 #54
Ad hominem attack, check. Evidence, still missing... DanTex Dec 2013 #55
aww heaven05 Dec 2013 #56
I don't care what you 'find hard to believe'. Show me comments from me on this issue sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #62
I think that if you had actually read about it, you would have some actual evidence. DanTex Dec 2013 #64
I never said there was evidence of a second gunman. I have repeatedly stated that who actually sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #71
Last post, you said "the most flawed 'finding' of the WC was that Oswald was a 'lone gunman'." DanTex Dec 2013 #72
Oh my. PC Intern's OP was anything but "rambling & nonsensical". pacalo Dec 2013 #88
Right ON! Celebration Dec 2013 #13
Actually, yes, there is such a thing as science. DanTex Dec 2013 #22
no, still doesn't work for me Celebration Dec 2013 #25
His own words and actions from age 15 or so onward? Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #31
'nuf said Celebration Dec 2013 #53
According to LHO, he was a marxist. DanTex Dec 2013 #49
any fingerprints on the gun? Celebration Dec 2013 #57
First of all, there was a palm print, and second of all, lack of fingerprints is DanTex Dec 2013 #58
you need to actually read the link from my post re: the palm print Celebration Dec 2013 #67
I did. Especially this part. DanTex Dec 2013 #69
Reasons to believe that Oswald was not CIA. DanTex Dec 2013 #61
Oh look.... Ichingcarpenter Dec 2013 #26
I keep hearing about the supposed "facts" that "we have." DanTex Dec 2013 #41
So the mercury in Oswald's fillings made him a patsy. Got it. Orrex Dec 2013 #18
Very interesting article. MH1 Dec 2013 #19
Yes, well done, sometimes noise is the goal. bemildred Dec 2013 #21
What gives you the right to call faked moon-landings "wacky"? DanTex Dec 2013 #24
There you go again. Nt PCIntern Dec 2013 #27
Dodging questions, providing no evidence... DanTex Dec 2013 #74
You have missed the entire point of the OP PCIntern Dec 2013 #75
Whatever you do, just make sure you don't provide any evidence... DanTex Dec 2013 #76
Again you're entirely missing the point PCIntern Dec 2013 #78
You're doing great! Zero evidence! You're really getting the hang of denialism! DanTex Dec 2013 #79
Nice try. Next time try this with PCIntern Dec 2013 #80
Hold it steady! Avoid the temptation to use your brain! DanTex Dec 2013 #81
Zzzzzzzzzzzz. HuckleB Dec 2013 #28
You're right PCIntern Dec 2013 #30
It is to laugh. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #33
Laugh my ass PCIntern Dec 2013 #36
I agree, wholeheartedly!!!!! heaven05 Dec 2013 #38
Point to it. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #40
geez heaven05 Dec 2013 #52
Wake up, lies, the only thing missing Dr Hobbitstein Dec 2013 #68
I don't like Alec Jones, he's an idiot heaven05 Dec 2013 #83
Your disdain for facts is noted... Dr Hobbitstein Dec 2013 #85
thank you heaven05 Dec 2013 #89
still is! heaven05 Dec 2013 #39
Thank you, PCIntern! Outstanding allegory... Octafish Dec 2013 #29
Wow. Thanks!! Nt PCIntern Dec 2013 #32
That is why Dems can't easily persuade the people: the Repubs are clever tblue37 Dec 2013 #47
Absolutely, tblue37. They paid to develop the art... Octafish Dec 2013 #66
Maria Galardin's TUC Radio (Time of Useful Consciousness) is a great resource. bananas Dec 2013 #91
Oxygen-Starved Brains Can Only Function So Long. Octafish Dec 2013 #92
thank you heaven05 Dec 2013 #37
excellent! thank you. n/t wildbilln864 Dec 2013 #45
Another dental story with a broader moral about institutional failure, here. proverbialwisdom Dec 2013 #50
Epic flawed analogy. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #59
Very funny. Humorous post of the month! Nt PCIntern Dec 2013 #60
Actually, I find Orrex's reply in this thread to be much funnier than my reply. The Midway Rebel Dec 2013 #63
MK Ultra was run by a bunch of dentists? Paulie Dec 2013 #65
Have you ever heard of a thing called fluoridation? Fluoridation of water? Orrex Dec 2013 #70
Agree 'in theory' that the American people are being bombarded with bullshit; but you omitted this: freshwest Dec 2013 #73
I had all my metal fillings removed and replaced with composite ca. 2000. I shouldn't have read WinkyDink Dec 2013 #82
So far so good right? PCIntern Dec 2013 #84
The mercury put in US fillings Ichingcarpenter Dec 2013 #86
I hear you. nt PCIntern Dec 2013 #87
I was looking for something lordsummerisle Dec 2013 #90
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Sunday Dental Thread: Le...