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BrentWil

(2,384 posts)
Sun Feb 26, 2012, 10:22 AM Feb 2012

Public School Teachers and Administrators: How should we fire them? [View all]

It is a difficult argument to make that every teacher in every public school is a teacher that performs at an acceptable level. Some should find other professions. The limited number that are bad and kept is what the media picks up on. I don't think this is a huge problem with public education but it is a small one that the conservative media makes huge, at least to some in the public.

With that thought in mind, how should a teacher or administrator face losing his/her job for job performance issues? How long should the process take? What steps should be in there? What system of appeals should be there?

As one example of a system that has a system of firing that doesn't work, I would suggest the LA School district. Below is an article detailing some of the problems that the LA times found.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/03/local/me-teachers3


Firing teachers can be a costly and tortuous task

...It's remarkably difficult to fire a tenured public school teacher in California, a Times investigation has found. The path can be laborious and labyrinthine, in some cases involving years of investigation, union grievances, administrative appeals, court challenges and re-hearings.

Not only is the process arduous, but some districts are particularly unsuccessful in navigating its complexities. The Los Angeles Unified School District sees the majority of its appealed dismissals overturned, and its administrators are far less likely even to try firing a tenured teacher than those in other districts.

The Times reviewed every case on record in the last 15 years in which a tenured employee was fired by a California school district and formally contested the decision before a review commission: 159 in all (not including about two dozen in which the records were destroyed). The newspaper also examined court and school district records and interviewed scores of people, including principals, teachers, union officials, district administrators, parents and students.

Among the findings:

* Building a case for dismissal is so time-consuming, costly and draining for principals and administrators that many say they don't make the effort except in the most egregious cases. The vast majority of firings stem from blatant misconduct, including sexual abuse, other immoral or illegal behavior, insubordination or repeated violation of rules such as showing up on time.

* Although districts generally press ahead with only the strongest cases, even these get knocked down more than a third of the time by the specially convened review panels, which have the discretion to restore teachers' jobs even when grounds for dismissal are proved.

* Jettisoning a teacher solely because he or she can't teach is rare. In 80% of the dismissals that were upheld, classroom performance was not even a factor.

When teaching is at issue, years of effort -- and thousands of dollars -- sometimes go into rehabilitating the teacher as students suffer. Over the three years before he was fired, one struggling math teacher in Stockton was observed 13 times by school officials, failed three year-end evaluations, was offered a more desirable assignment and joined a mentoring program as most of his ninth-grade students flunked his courses.
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"Always see news stories" and "teachers being kept despite bad performance,etc" MichiganVote Feb 2012 #1
The point isn't the what they say.. it is asking what the actual process SHOULD be... NT BrentWil Feb 2012 #2
A process is only as good as those who actually follow it. Think there are a lot of bad apples? MichiganVote Feb 2012 #7
Complex processes take time to go through... BrentWil Feb 2012 #18
Google and other companies can't just hire/fire at the drop of a hat ibegurpard Feb 2012 #25
Certainly they do.. BrentWil Feb 2012 #29
Those companies all have performance review processes too. They are also for profit enterprises. MichiganVote Feb 2012 #32
I am sure someone at Google manages 25 to 30 people BrentWil Feb 2012 #41
But that's not necessarily what will happen.. Fumesucker Feb 2012 #45
or just taller or better looking. nt Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #49
Certainly... BrentWil Feb 2012 #53
I didn't notice a mention of students in your OP.. Fumesucker Feb 2012 #57
I said "kids". Been a room full of 25-30 kids daily recently? No, you haven't. Nuff' said. MichiganVote Feb 2012 #50
Not being a teacher doesn't stop me from commenting on labor practices.. BrentWil Feb 2012 #58
How about you tell us what you perceive the problems are and then propose 1monster Feb 2012 #68
None flexibility for hiring/pay issues and also firing issues... BrentWil Feb 2012 #70
I was a public school teacher for nine years (9th grade mostly) Yupster Feb 2012 #92
Thanks for the post. Very good and I do think it shows some of the problems with the system. BrentWil Feb 2012 #94
Huh? 1monster Feb 2012 #105
Twenty-five to thirty school children on a daily basis is only true in elementary school. 1monster Feb 2012 #51
+1 MichiganVote Feb 2012 #52
I would say that would vary from district to district... BrentWil Feb 2012 #61
A committment on the part of the School Board all the way down to the the food 1monster Feb 2012 #67
I like how you preface your argument with "we always see news stories" about bad teachers Hugabear Feb 2012 #3
I don't "always" see news stories about how we keep bad teachers... trumad Feb 2012 #4
or Drudge... Hugabear Feb 2012 #26
Have you done some investigation on your own? ibegurpard Feb 2012 #5
Absolutely... BrentWil Feb 2012 #9
well, sounds like you have your answer then ibegurpard Feb 2012 #14
The point of the thread wasn't how it is done now... BrentWil Feb 2012 #23
Tenure saved my very-well-qualified liberalhistorian Feb 2012 #89
Tenure cost my good friend his job joeglow3 Feb 2012 #98
Because generally those who are there longer liberalhistorian Feb 2012 #99
Generally doesn't mean always. joeglow3 Feb 2012 #100
Rather than focusing on getting rid of bad teachers, MadHound Feb 2012 #6
if the same amount of education is required than I see Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #11
What are "the same amount of it's"? MadHound Feb 2012 #19
as soon as they have 4 years of college, 4 years of education school Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #24
I have all of that, but 5 years of a low paying residency. proud2BlibKansan Feb 2012 #71
There would have to be some sort of board certification program and something akin to the MCATs Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #96
Teachers never can expect huge salaries. RebelOne Feb 2012 #95
Well, because I didn't start a thread on that... BrentWil Feb 2012 #12
You started a thread on how to get rid of bad teachers, MadHound Feb 2012 #21
I'd be curious to see OPs definition of "bad teachers" as well ibegurpard Feb 2012 #27
It is rather subjective... I think that is best kept to local systems.. BrentWil Feb 2012 #31
As are the processes ALREADY IN PLACE ibegurpard Feb 2012 #33
Certainly... BrentWil Feb 2012 #37
Yeah, but he's not interested in that. He's only interested liberalhistorian Feb 2012 #91
I lean toward treating them the same way as IT professionals who are terminated for job performance slackmaster Feb 2012 #8
IE: just humiliate the fuck out of them eh? trumad Feb 2012 #10
No. Eject them from the premises before they have a chance to do any more harm. slackmaster Feb 2012 #56
Frog March? trumad Feb 2012 #65
I give you the TCU Horned Frog Marching Band in action slackmaster Feb 2012 #69
if you make your class write Valentines to your Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #13
Nor should you be on paid leave while it takes years to fire you.....nt msanthrope Feb 2012 #102
"If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers. " Smarmie Doofus Feb 2012 #15
Did I ever say in my OP that is what is wrong with public schools? BrentWil Feb 2012 #22
Not sure. You've edited it six times so far so I'm not sure what you may have said. Smarmie Doofus Feb 2012 #30
Yes, the betterment of education is my point... BrentWil Feb 2012 #34
Hiring and retaining good teachers is a HUGE part of it. Smarmie Doofus Feb 2012 #59
Thanks for the answer... BrentWil Feb 2012 #63
Any ideas about how to go about doing this? Smarmie Doofus Feb 2012 #76
As I said, I think any board of education should have one job.. BrentWil Feb 2012 #81
We effectively HAVE exactly that. It's called "mayoral control". Lots of urban districts have it. Smarmie Doofus Feb 2012 #86
I disagree that it has been a "disaster"... BrentWil Feb 2012 #87
Come on. It's Cathie Black. For god sakes. Smarmie Doofus Feb 2012 #88
Come on. It's Cathie Black. For god sakes. Smarmie Doofus Feb 2012 #90
Who ProSense Feb 2012 #16
Why Not? BrentWil Feb 2012 #20
Yeah ProSense Feb 2012 #28
The fact that every school board is different doesn't stop one from discussing the ideal solution.NT BrentWil Feb 2012 #35
This ProSense Feb 2012 #43
The subject has merit... JSnuffy Feb 2012 #17
sad because it's true. Terry_M Feb 2012 #36
Perhaps the issue should be on how to hire them--not fire them. MichiganVote Feb 2012 #38
That is one part of it... BrentWil Feb 2012 #39
Nothing wrong with any question. But let's get real. You've changed the preface of your question. MichiganVote Feb 2012 #44
+1 OH YEAH. I forgot. REALITY. We have to figure out a way to get rid of you, MV. Smarmie Doofus Feb 2012 #75
I am. Matter of fact I've been that way since I started. MichiganVote Feb 2012 #79
Where did you find the dull BS anyway? Did you just make it up? L. Coyote Feb 2012 #40
It IS a tea party soundbite ibegurpard Feb 2012 #42
Wants to advance the non payment of teachers. Period. MichiganVote Feb 2012 #48
Local control is good... BrentWil Feb 2012 #55
It's ProSense Feb 2012 #47
So emotional... BrentWil Feb 2012 #54
WTF? "inability to improve because of lack of motivation" L. Coyote Feb 2012 #62
Public School Teachers and Administrators: How WE DO fire them!!! L. Coyote Feb 2012 #46
That is a problem.. BrentWil Feb 2012 #60
WTF? "And has to be thought about..." NO, this has to be rectified L. Coyote Feb 2012 #64
Secretaries of Education: How Should We Fire Them? Karmadillo Feb 2012 #66
+1,000,000 proud2BlibKansan Feb 2012 #72
It's ALWAYS down to the administrators. saras Feb 2012 #73
Systems affect the process... BrentWil Feb 2012 #74
Actually the word you are looking for is 'affect', not effect. MichiganVote Feb 2012 #80
The problem is in the question and defintions. Igel Feb 2012 #77
nooo! too much nuance...doesn't fit the narrative... ibegurpard Feb 2012 #82
Unpacking accomplished. +1 n/t Smarmie Doofus Feb 2012 #97
Excellent post from someone who actually knows something. Chorophyll Feb 2012 #104
It's pretty easy to find the flaws here Major Nikon Feb 2012 #78
The system is what can produce both... BrentWil Feb 2012 #83
Poorly performing managers generally try to blame employees for their own failures Major Nikon Feb 2012 #85
A solution may be like what the National Hockey League did to introduce helmets. bluestate10 Feb 2012 #84
Ok lets take your points 1 by 1 MichiganVote Feb 2012 #93
I imagine if each teacher taught students that were motivated LanternWaste Feb 2012 #101
I look forward to the day Chorophyll Feb 2012 #103
Local control...... Are_grits_groceries Feb 2012 #106
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